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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 23893 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
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Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #855 on: April 08, 2013, 12:39:39 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...

The point is that reasonable people can disagree about when life begins and things like the existence of a soul. Therefore, it may be best not to come off as belligerent. That sort of thing can easily be seen as hypocritical when coming from a Christian.  

Of course reasonable people can disagree about that, and frequently do.  But you continually and obstinately assume, solely on the basis of the sentiments and rhetoric expressed on a Christian board, by Christians, and amongst ourselves that there are those amongst us who would be or would be seen to be "belligerent".  I most seriously doubt that anyone here would behave that way, out in the public square.  Are there "Christians" who have?  Yes.  But we're not discussing them here.  If we were, this whole thread would probably have been moved to "Politics", because "Christians" have been guilty of all manner of un-Christian like behavior Cool.

Unfortunately, in our increasingly decadent and p.c. society, anytime anyone disagrees with another, especially if it is someone, especially a Christian, disagreeing, even in the most mild-mannered, respectful way, with a "progressive" or "liberal" or libtardian p.o.v., this is interpreted as "belligerence" or as forcing one's belief system/religion/whatever on the other.  Utter and complete nonsense!!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 12:41:52 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Marc1152
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« Reply #856 on: April 08, 2013, 12:54:17 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing

« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 12:55:03 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Kerdy
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« Reply #857 on: April 08, 2013, 12:58:29 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...

The point is that reasonable people can disagree about when life begins and things like the existence of a soul. Therefore, it may be best not to come off as belligerent. That sort of thing can easily be seen as hypocritical when coming from a Christian.  

Of course reasonable people can disagree about that, and frequently do.  But you continually and obstinately assume, solely on the basis of the sentiments and rhetoric expressed on a Christian board, by Christians, and amongst ourselves that there are those amongst us who would be or would be seen to be "belligerent".  I most seriously doubt that anyone here would behave that way, out in the public square.  Are there "Christians" who have?  Yes.  But we're not discussing them here.  If we were, this whole thread would probably have been moved to "Politics", because "Christians" have been guilty of all manner of un-Christian like behavior Cool.

Unfortunately, in our increasingly decadent and p.c. society, anytime anyone disagrees with another, especially if it is someone, especially a Christian, disagreeing, even in the most mild-mannered, respectful way, with a "progressive" or "liberal" or libtardian p.o.v., this is interpreted as "belligerence" or as forcing one's belief system/religion/whatever on the other.  Utter and complete nonsense!!
And without the need of pointing it out, but I will again, they are forcing their belief system on us.  So, who is right and who is wrong here?  The ones "forcing" a moral standard founded on two millennia of Godly teachings or the ones "forcing" an immoral standard recently conjured up as PC because its convenient?
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Kerdy
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« Reply #858 on: April 08, 2013, 01:02:30 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.
Logged
Marc1152
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Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,297


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #859 on: April 08, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...

The point is that reasonable people can disagree about when life begins and things like the existence of a soul. Therefore, it may be best not to come off as belligerent. That sort of thing can easily be seen as hypocritical when coming from a Christian.  

Of course reasonable people can disagree about that, and frequently do.  But you continually and obstinately assume, solely on the basis of the sentiments and rhetoric expressed on a Christian board, by Christians, and amongst ourselves that there are those amongst us who would be or would be seen to be "belligerent".  I most seriously doubt that anyone here would behave that way, out in the public square.  Are there "Christians" who have?  Yes.  But we're not discussing them here.  If we were, this whole thread would probably have been moved to "Politics", because "Christians" have been guilty of all manner of un-Christian like behavior Cool.

Unfortunately, in our increasingly decadent and p.c. society, anytime anyone disagrees with another, especially if it is someone, especially a Christian, disagreeing, even in the most mild-mannered, respectful way, with a "progressive" or "liberal" or libtardian p.o.v., this is interpreted as "belligerence" or as forcing one's belief system/religion/whatever on the other.  Utter and complete nonsense!!
And without the need of pointing it out, but I will again, they are forcing their belief system on us.  So, who is right and who is wrong here?  The ones "forcing" a moral standard founded on two millennia of Godly teachings or the ones "forcing" an immoral standard recently conjured up as PC because its convenient?

I think that if you want to bring religious assumptions into the secular world and make law from it, then you better have a large consensus.. I think I am right about that as events demonstrate pretty clearly.

If you insist on nuking people right out of the gate, as right as you may be morally and religiously, you do great harm to building support or convincing people..

« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 01:06:16 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
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Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,231


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #860 on: April 08, 2013, 01:07:22 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing



Punch says it all. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45901.msg908047.html#msg908047
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #861 on: April 08, 2013, 01:08:12 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...

The point is that reasonable people can disagree about when life begins and things like the existence of a soul. Therefore, it may be best not to come off as belligerent. That sort of thing can easily be seen as hypocritical when coming from a Christian.  

Of course reasonable people can disagree about that, and frequently do.  But you continually and obstinately assume, solely on the basis of the sentiments and rhetoric expressed on a Christian board, by Christians, and amongst ourselves that there are those amongst us who would be or would be seen to be "belligerent".  I most seriously doubt that anyone here would behave that way, out in the public square.  Are there "Christians" who have?  Yes.  But we're not discussing them here.  If we were, this whole thread would probably have been moved to "Politics", because "Christians" have been guilty of all manner of un-Christian like behavior Cool.

Unfortunately, in our increasingly decadent and p.c. society, anytime anyone disagrees with another, especially if it is someone, especially a Christian, disagreeing, even in the most mild-mannered, respectful way, with a "progressive" or "liberal" or libtardian p.o.v., this is interpreted as "belligerence" or as forcing one's belief system/religion/whatever on the other.  Utter and complete nonsense!!
And without the need of pointing it out, but I will again, they are forcing their belief system on us.  So, who is right and who is wrong here?  The ones "forcing" a moral standard founded on two millennia of Godly teachings or the ones "forcing" an immoral standard recently conjured up as PC because its convenient?

I think that if you want to bring religious assumptions into the secular world and make law from it, then you better have a large consensus.. I think I am right about that as events demonstrate pretty clearly.

If you insist on nuking people right out of the gate, as right as you may be morally and religiously, you do great harm to building support or convincing people..


That's three strikes.  Now to sit in the dug out.
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
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Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,297


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #862 on: April 08, 2013, 01:08:35 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 01:09:25 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Jonathan Gress
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Posts: 3,669


« Reply #863 on: April 08, 2013, 01:59:51 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.
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J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
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Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,231


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #864 on: April 08, 2013, 02:26:04 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

No offense meant, Jonathan, but your observation is one that's been made already several times here.  And yet, the beat goes on.....Anyone havin' fun yet  Roll Eyes?

Here ya go: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.new.html#new Enjoy  Cool.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 02:47:12 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #865 on: April 08, 2013, 02:51:02 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

No offense meant, Jonathan, but your observation is one that's been made already several times here.  And yet, the beat goes on.....Anyone havin' fun yet  Roll Eyes?

Here ya go: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.new.html#new Enjoy  Cool.

Originality is overrated.
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« Reply #866 on: April 08, 2013, 02:56:55 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

What are the implications of calling people Murderers and how would you penalize such Murderers?

I say there is a tremendous gap between how you would treat a Hit Man for example, someone who is hired to kill for you and a woman who has had an abortion. But by your thinking, Murder is Murder is Murder, right? If a Woman hires a Doctor to Murder her embryo then she seems to be exactly like someone who hires a hit man. There is premeditation, there is the taking of a life, there is money exchanged for doing so....

So that begs the question, if abortion is like any other Murder, how would you punish Women who have them ( if you were making the laws....God help us:). Would there be vast roundups? Gulags? Firing squads? Long prison sentences? Because the penalty for Murder for hire in the USA is often the death penalty or long Prison sentence, usually life without parole..

Answers please... Thanks  
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« Reply #867 on: April 08, 2013, 03:00:05 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

What are the implications of calling people Murderers and how would you penalize such Murderers?

I say there is a tremendous gap between how you would treat a Hit Man for example, someone who is hired to kill for you and a woman who has had an abortion. But by your thinking, Murder is Murder is Murder, right? If a Woman hires a Doctor to Murder her embryo then she seems to be exactly like someone who hires a hit man. There is premeditation, there is the taking of a life, there is money exchanged for doing so....

So that begs the question, if abortion is like any other Murder, how would you punish Women who have them ( if you were making the laws....God help us:). Would there be vast roundups? Gulags? Firing squads? Long prison sentences? Because the penalty for Murder for hire in the USA is often the death penalty or long Prison sentence, usually life without parole..

Answers please... Thanks  

Might I suggest we discuss this in "Politics"?  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.new.html#new
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« Reply #868 on: April 08, 2013, 03:00:32 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

No offense meant, Jonathan, but your observation is one that's been made already several times here.  And yet, the beat goes on.....Anyone havin' fun yet  Roll Eyes?

Here ya go: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.new.html#new Enjoy  Cool.

Originality is overrated.

Ain't it just  Wink?
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« Reply #869 on: April 08, 2013, 05:01:41 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.
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« Reply #870 on: April 08, 2013, 05:19:23 PM »


Does Abortion take a living being?  Yes
Does Abortion take the life of a Human living being? Yes
Does taking a life of a Living Human Being constitute Murder?  Yes
Murder is the taking of a human life with forethought and intention.
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« Reply #871 on: April 09, 2013, 07:29:12 AM »

An interesting aside:

My mum was fortunate to have the support of her own mother

When I got my first pay my grandmother told me I owed her $20. I asked her how. She said that when she took my mum to the hospital to have me she got a parking-ticket.

She remembered that for all that time and made me pay.

Stories about parsimonious Scots can be true!

And the "positive" in that for you was that she didn't charge you interest  Grin Grin!

One way of looking at it.

For birthdays she would also give me scratched instant scratch lottery tickets.

She hand them to me and say "You didn't win anything"
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« Reply #872 on: April 09, 2013, 07:30:30 AM »


Originality is overrated.

I've heard that so many times!
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« Reply #873 on: April 09, 2013, 09:04:46 AM »

An interesting aside:

My mum was fortunate to have the support of her own mother

When I got my first pay my grandmother told me I owed her $20. I asked her how. She said that when she took my mum to the hospital to have me she got a parking-ticket.

She remembered that for all that time and made me pay.

Stories about parsimonious Scots can be true!

And the "positive" in that for you was that she didn't charge you interest  Grin Grin!

One way of looking at it.

For birthdays she would also give me scratched instant scratch lottery tickets.

She hand them to me and say "You didn't win anything"

LOL!  Wow, she sounds like a real pistol! Grin
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« Reply #874 on: April 09, 2013, 11:09:02 AM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

Thanks. I was going to make the same point. The real issues for those of us who truly want to dramatically reduce the use of abortion in the West, including the USA, are ones of strategy and tactics.

I would argue that given our lack of success in achieving even a modest change in societal views over the past fifty years, that a serious reexamination of both strategy and tactics without changing goals and objectives is warranted. To say that is not to be "soft" on abortion, but rather to seriously address how best to achieve a new societal moral consensus. Of course however, defining goals and objectives is a part of any strategic plan.

Without effectuating such a societal paradigm shift, reaching our common goal as Orthodox and Roman Christians will remain elusive and we will continue to squabble among ourselves. It is a fair criticism to assert that we have squandered the past forty years since Roe with our current approach.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 11:12:36 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #875 on: April 09, 2013, 11:59:47 AM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

Thanks. I was going to make the same point. The real issues for those of us who truly want to dramatically reduce the use of abortion in the West, including the USA, are ones of strategy and tactics.

I would argue that given our lack of success in achieving even a modest change in societal views over the past fifty years, that a serious reexamination of both strategy and tactics without changing goals and objectives is warranted. To say that is not to be "soft" on abortion, but rather to seriously address how best to achieve a new societal moral consensus. Of course however, defining goals and objectives is a part of any strategic plan.

Without effectuating such a societal paradigm shift, reaching our common goal as Orthodox and Roman Christians will remain elusive and we will continue to squabble among ourselves. It is a fair criticism to assert that we have squandered the past forty years since Roe with our current approach.

I invite you to contribute your thoughts about how to go about effectuating an appropriate societal shift on this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.0.html

Your thoughts would be most welcome, and quite refreshing.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #876 on: April 09, 2013, 02:16:52 PM »

If this discussion is going to be about what's the best way to fight abortion in the public sphere, we should move to Politics. This particular thread is simply about whether abortion is murder. I think that's been settled. I think even Marc agrees that it's murder, unless I'm wrong. Everyone seems to be talking past each other at this point.

Thanks. I was going to make the same point. The real issues for those of us who truly want to dramatically reduce the use of abortion in the West, including the USA, are ones of strategy and tactics.

I would argue that given our lack of success in achieving even a modest change in societal views over the past fifty years, that a serious reexamination of both strategy and tactics without changing goals and objectives is warranted. To say that is not to be "soft" on abortion, but rather to seriously address how best to achieve a new societal moral consensus. Of course however, defining goals and objectives is a part of any strategic plan.

Without effectuating such a societal paradigm shift, reaching our common goal as Orthodox and Roman Christians will remain elusive and we will continue to squabble among ourselves. It is a fair criticism to assert that we have squandered the past forty years since Roe with our current approach.

I invite you to contribute your thoughts about how to go about effectuating an appropriate societal shift on this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.0.html

Your thoughts would be most welcome, and quite refreshing.
In fact, anyone willing to not only say how wrong opponents have been and not proposing submission to secularism who has a strategy of any sort would be welcome.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 02:26:33 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #877 on: April 09, 2013, 02:41:22 PM »

Just jumping right in the middle of your debate, if you allow me.
 Smiley

If you would've asked me a few years ago...my answer would've been "abortion is not murder, it's just...an abortion, a way to get rid of a potential problem". I was actually thinking abortion is the best choice for those young moms who did not even finish high school. Also how about rape victims who happen to get pregnant from such violent act?Huh I still don't know how to look at those situations that are very much real.

I am now 30 years old, never been pregnant and I completely changed my point of view. And it's not only because my faith grew stronger and I started living my life accordingly.

Not sure I will go as far as calling it "murder" or have it declared illegal or have some crazy punishments against it...but I definitely don't see "getting pregnant" as something so terrible as I used to see it a few years ago, that requires an abortion. I think this kind of thinking comes with age though. I have my own house, a good job, stability, plans for the future etc. I can see myself raising numerous children. Ten years ago, not so much! I think it comes with age...you mature, see things differently, grow more patience.

Is abortion murder? according to our Faith...YES! According to our crazy society...not even close, even though that heart starts beating at 6 weeks. Weird.

I agree with previous posters...we should focus more on finding other options for those women getting ready to go through abortion, and not so much on accusing them of murder for killing their babies and condemn them for eternity.
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« Reply #878 on: April 09, 2013, 02:51:09 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.

.. I think you have a problem when you don't do as well in a debate as your self image would suggest you should be doing.

So is Abortion the exact same thing as any other Murder and will get ( once your are put in charge) Women punished in the same way, execution or long jail time?

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« Reply #879 on: April 09, 2013, 03:00:16 PM »

Just jumping right in the middle of your debate, if you allow me.
 Smiley

If you would've asked me a few years ago...my answer would've been "abortion is not murder, it's just...an abortion, a way to get rid of a potential problem". I was actually thinking abortion is the best choice for those young moms who did not even finish high school. Also how about rape victims who happen to get pregnant from such violent act?Huh I still don't know how to look at those situations that are very much real.

I am now 30 years old, never been pregnant and I completely changed my point of view. And it's not only because my faith grew stronger and I started living my life accordingly.

Not sure I will go as far as calling it "murder" or have it declared illegal or have some crazy punishments against it...but I definitely don't see "getting pregnant" as something so terrible as I used to see it a few years ago, that requires an abortion. I think this kind of thinking comes with age though. I have my own house, a good job, stability, plans for the future etc. I can see myself raising numerous children. Ten years ago, not so much! I think it comes with age...you mature, see things differently, grow more patience.

Is abortion murder? according to our Faith...YES! According to our crazy society...not even close, even though that heart starts beating at 6 weeks. Weird.

I agree with previous posters...we should focus more on finding other options for those women getting ready to go through abortion, and not so much on accusing them of murder for killing their babies and condemn them for eternity.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your thoughts! 

Our faith says abortion is murder.  That should be enough for those of us who profess that faith.  Yes, other options for pregnant women are definitely a must, as are incentives to NOT get pregnant in the first place (I know, far easier said than sometimes done!).  The only One capable of and qualified to condemn anyone for eternity is God.  Society has the right and obligation to protect its most vulnerable members and one way (not the only way) to do that is to punish those people who kill other people.  Now, convincing society that abortion is wrong and is the same as murder, indeed, IS murder, is a whole other kettle of fish.
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« Reply #880 on: April 09, 2013, 03:19:45 PM »

Just jumping right in the middle of your debate, if you allow me.
 Smiley

If you would've asked me a few years ago...my answer would've been "abortion is not murder, it's just...an abortion, a way to get rid of a potential problem". I was actually thinking abortion is the best choice for those young moms who did not even finish high school. Also how about rape victims who happen to get pregnant from such violent act?Huh I still don't know how to look at those situations that are very much real.

I am now 30 years old, never been pregnant and I completely changed my point of view. And it's not only because my faith grew stronger and I started living my life accordingly.

Not sure I will go as far as calling it "murder" or have it declared illegal or have some crazy punishments against it...but I definitely don't see "getting pregnant" as something so terrible as I used to see it a few years ago, that requires an abortion. I think this kind of thinking comes with age though. I have my own house, a good job, stability, plans for the future etc. I can see myself raising numerous children. Ten years ago, not so much! I think it comes with age...you mature, see things differently, grow more patience.

Is abortion murder? according to our Faith...YES! According to our crazy society...not even close, even though that heart starts beating at 6 weeks. Weird.

I agree with previous posters...we should focus more on finding other options for those women getting ready to go through abortion, and not so much on accusing them of murder for killing their babies and condemn them for eternity.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your thoughts!  

Our faith says abortion is murder.  That should be enough for those of us who profess that faith.  Yes, other options for pregnant women are definitely a must, as are incentives to NOT get pregnant in the first place (I know, far easier said than sometimes done!).  The only One capable of and qualified to condemn anyone for eternity is God.  Society has the right and obligation to protect its most vulnerable members and one way (not the only way) to do that is to punish those people who kill other people.  Now, convincing society that abortion is wrong and is the same as murder, indeed, IS murder, is a whole other kettle of fish.

Very well stated. Thanks, J. Michael.

Welcome to OC.net, Dpaula!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 03:20:51 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #881 on: April 09, 2013, 03:30:56 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.

.. I think you have a problem when you don't do as well in a debate as your self image would suggest you should be doing.

So is Abortion the exact same thing as any other Murder and will get ( once your are put in charge) Women punished in the same way, execution or long jail time?


Until you can admit, as an Orthodox Christian, abortion is murder, we will not be able to move forward and discuss any of you points.
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« Reply #882 on: April 09, 2013, 03:39:15 PM »

I for one, as an Orthodox Christian, I agree that abortion is murder.
No question about it.
Didn't have time to read all replies, but I am surprised to see Orhodox Christians believing otherwise....unless they don't practice the Faith..there's no other explanation that I could think of.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 03:40:05 PM by Dpaula » Logged

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« Reply #883 on: April 09, 2013, 03:47:10 PM »

I for one, as an Orthodox Christian, I agree that abortion is murder.
No question about it.
Didn't have time to read all replies, but I am surprised to see Orhodox Christians believing otherwise....unless they don't practice the Faith..there's no other explanation that I could think of.

Trust me, this is one of the debates on here you wanna stay far away from. Do yourself a favor and unsubscribe to emails notices from this thread while you're ahead.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 03:47:26 PM by sheenj » Logged
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« Reply #884 on: April 09, 2013, 04:01:44 PM »

Why?
I actually learned quite some interesting stuff that I never thought about. And I'm not afraid
o admit my faults...
You're the second person telling me to "watch out" and I've only been a member for a few hours. Is there something 'un-orthodox' happening on this forum???
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« Reply #885 on: April 09, 2013, 04:19:05 PM »

Why?
I actually learned quite some interesting stuff that I never thought about. And I'm not afraid
o admit my faults...
You're the second person telling me to "watch out" and I've only been a member for a few hours. Is there something 'un-orthodox' happening on this forum???

Now, there's a great question!!  Wink
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« Reply #886 on: April 09, 2013, 04:43:38 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.

.. I think you have a problem when you don't do as well in a debate as your self image would suggest you should be doing.

So is Abortion the exact same thing as any other Murder and will get ( once your are put in charge) Women punished in the same way, execution or long jail time?


Until you can admit, as an Orthodox Christian, abortion is murder, we will not be able to move forward and discuss any of you points.

I've asked Marc twice in the "Politics" forum whether he thinks abortion is murder, without reply yet.  Here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908558.html#msg908558  and here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908748.html#msg908748
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« Reply #887 on: April 09, 2013, 04:51:09 PM »

Why?
I actually learned quite some interesting stuff that I never thought about. And I'm not afraid
o admit my faults...
You're the second person telling me to "watch out" and I've only been a member for a few hours. Is there something 'un-orthodox' happening on this forum???

There are days that I have to remind myself that this forum is NOT representative of Orthodoxy as a whole.  If it was, I would immediately go back to being a Lutheran.  Everything is not always as it seems, and often the most Orthodox people posting are not canonically Orthodox, so don't pay much attention to the jurisdiction that is claimed by someone.
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« Reply #888 on: April 09, 2013, 04:53:00 PM »

I for one, as an Orthodox Christian, I agree that abortion is murder.
No question about it.
Didn't have time to read all replies, but I am surprised to see Orhodox Christians believing otherwise....unless they don't practice the Faith..there's no other explanation that I could think of.

Trust me, this is one of the debates on here you wanna stay far away from. Do yourself a favor and unsubscribe to emails notices from this thread while you're ahead.

And don't even think of joining in on the homosexuality and masturbation threads . . .
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« Reply #889 on: April 09, 2013, 05:08:03 PM »

Just jumping right in the middle of your debate, if you allow me.
 Smiley

If you would've asked me a few years ago...my answer would've been "abortion is not murder, it's just...an abortion, a way to get rid of a potential problem". I was actually thinking abortion is the best choice for those young moms who did not even finish high school. Also how about rape victims who happen to get pregnant from such violent act?Huh I still don't know how to look at those situations that are very much real.

I am now 30 years old, never been pregnant and I completely changed my point of view. And it's not only because my faith grew stronger and I started living my life accordingly.

Not sure I will go as far as calling it "murder" or have it declared illegal or have some crazy punishments against it...but I definitely don't see "getting pregnant" as something so terrible as I used to see it a few years ago, that requires an abortion. I think this kind of thinking comes with age though. I have my own house, a good job, stability, plans for the future etc. I can see myself raising numerous children. Ten years ago, not so much! I think it comes with age...you mature, see things differently, grow more patience.

Is abortion murder? according to our Faith...YES! According to our crazy society...not even close, even though that heart starts beating at 6 weeks. Weird.

I agree with previous posters...we should focus more on finding other options for those women getting ready to go through abortion, and not so much on accusing them of murder for killing their babies and condemn them for eternity.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your thoughts! 

Our faith says abortion is murder.  That should be enough for those of us who profess that faith.  Yes, other options for pregnant women are definitely a must, as are incentives to NOT get pregnant in the first place (I know, far easier said than sometimes done!).  The only One capable of and qualified to condemn anyone for eternity is God.  Society has the right and obligation to protect its most vulnerable members and one way (not the only way) to do that is to punish those people who kill other people.  Now, convincing society that abortion is wrong and is the same as murder, indeed, IS murder, is a whole other kettle of fish.

Then why are you not willing to punish it as Murder? What's the  difference between abortion and any other first degree murder?
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« Reply #890 on: April 09, 2013, 05:11:17 PM »

Just jumping right in the middle of your debate, if you allow me.
 Smiley

If you would've asked me a few years ago...my answer would've been "abortion is not murder, it's just...an abortion, a way to get rid of a potential problem". I was actually thinking abortion is the best choice for those young moms who did not even finish high school. Also how about rape victims who happen to get pregnant from such violent act?Huh I still don't know how to look at those situations that are very much real.

I am now 30 years old, never been pregnant and I completely changed my point of view. And it's not only because my faith grew stronger and I started living my life accordingly.

Not sure I will go as far as calling it "murder" or have it declared illegal or have some crazy punishments against it...but I definitely don't see "getting pregnant" as something so terrible as I used to see it a few years ago, that requires an abortion. I think this kind of thinking comes with age though. I have my own house, a good job, stability, plans for the future etc. I can see myself raising numerous children. Ten years ago, not so much! I think it comes with age...you mature, see things differently, grow more patience.

Is abortion murder? according to our Faith...YES! According to our crazy society...not even close, even though that heart starts beating at 6 weeks. Weird.

I agree with previous posters...we should focus more on finding other options for those women getting ready to go through abortion, and not so much on accusing them of murder for killing their babies and condemn them for eternity.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your thoughts! 

Our faith says abortion is murder.  That should be enough for those of us who profess that faith.  Yes, other options for pregnant women are definitely a must, as are incentives to NOT get pregnant in the first place (I know, far easier said than sometimes done!).  The only One capable of and qualified to condemn anyone for eternity is God.  Society has the right and obligation to protect its most vulnerable members and one way (not the only way) to do that is to punish those people who kill other people.  Now, convincing society that abortion is wrong and is the same as murder, indeed, IS murder, is a whole other kettle of fish.

Then why are you not willing to punish it as Murder? What's the  difference between abortion and any other first degree murder?

Who says he's not?  JMichael has said before that he's not a big fan of execution on religious grounds, even for those who would already be eligible for it.  Just because he's not fitting the paradigm you are looking for doesn't mean that he doesn't support punishing it in some regard.
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« Reply #891 on: April 09, 2013, 05:13:35 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.

.. I think you have a problem when you don't do as well in a debate as your self image would suggest you should be doing.

So is Abortion the exact same thing as any other Murder and will get ( once your are put in charge) Women punished in the same way, execution or long jail time?


Until you can admit, as an Orthodox Christian, abortion is murder, we will not be able to move forward and discuss any of you points.

I've asked Marc twice in the "Politics" forum whether he thinks abortion is murder, without reply yet.  Here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908558.html#msg908558  and here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908748.html#msg908748

I am perfectly willing to explain this to you and end your confusion once you answer my question asked of you about 15 times. If abortion is murder why not punish it like any other first degree murder. It has all the elements of first degree murder. To deny that is dishonest. It has premeditation. the intentional taking of a life and even the exchange of money to do the deed. That is easily first degree Murder.

So why not execute women who have had abortions or at least send them to jail for life? And if you hesitate then I would like to know why.

I will answer your question in the other thread. The logical inconsistency of your position is torturous.  
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:14:44 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #892 on: April 09, 2013, 05:17:42 PM »

I will answer your question in the other thread. The logical inconsistency of your position is torturous.  

I laughed so hard that I passed wind.  You really should do stand up comedy.
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« Reply #893 on: April 09, 2013, 05:35:01 PM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.

.. I think you have a problem when you don't do as well in a debate as your self image would suggest you should be doing.

So is Abortion the exact same thing as any other Murder and will get ( once your are put in charge) Women punished in the same way, execution or long jail time?


Until you can admit, as an Orthodox Christian, abortion is murder, we will not be able to move forward and discuss any of you points.

I've asked Marc twice in the "Politics" forum whether he thinks abortion is murder, without reply yet.  Here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908558.html#msg908558  and here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908748.html#msg908748

I am perfectly willing to explain this to you and end your confusion once you answer my question asked of you about 15 times. If abortion is murder why not punish it like any other first degree murder. It has all the elements of first degree murder. To deny that is dishonest. It has premeditation. the intentional taking of a life and even the exchange of money to do the deed. That is easily first degree Murder.

So why not execute women who have had abortions or at least send them to jail for life? And if you hesitate then I would like to know why.

I will answer your question in the other thread. The logical inconsistency of your position is torturous.  
You first, and in this thread since this is where your question arose second.
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« Reply #894 on: April 09, 2013, 05:38:14 PM »

Why?
I actually learned quite some interesting stuff that I never thought about. And I'm not afraid
o admit my faults...
You're the second person telling me to "watch out" and I've only been a member for a few hours. Is there something 'un-orthodox' happening on this forum???

Don't get me wrong, from my experience, this forum is a great resource for learning about Orthodoxy. However, some topics, such as this one, get very very heated. I try not to get myself sucked in to these type of debates (though sometimes I can't help myself  Grin). Anyways, I recommend proceeding with caution and not to take everything you see here too literally.
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« Reply #895 on: April 09, 2013, 06:08:37 PM »

In truth I do occasionally get upset, but the majority of the time I am just shaking my head back and forth.  I realize sometimes I seem to come of upset, but it's mainly Internet discussion and having to keep it pithy by using my cell phone.  Lately I have been on the road.
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« Reply #896 on: April 10, 2013, 05:49:26 AM »

I am perfectly willing to explain this to you and end your confusion once you answer my question asked of you about 15 times. If abortion is murder why not punish it like any other first degree murder. It has all the elements of first degree murder. To deny that is dishonest. It has premeditation. the intentional taking of a life and even the exchange of money to do the deed. That is easily first degree Murder.

So why not execute women who have had abortions or at least send them to jail for life? And if you hesitate then I would like to know why.

I will answer your question in the other thread. The logical inconsistency of your position is torturous.  

They used to punish abortionists and those that procure an abortion.

Punishing them by killing them makes no sense to me - I'm not in favour of the death penalty.
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« Reply #897 on: April 10, 2013, 06:47:01 AM »

I am perfectly willing to explain this to you and end your confusion once you answer my question asked of you about 15 times. If abortion is murder why not punish it like any other first degree murder. It has all the elements of first degree murder. To deny that is dishonest. It has premeditation. the intentional taking of a life and even the exchange of money to do the deed. That is easily first degree Murder.

So why not execute women who have had abortions or at least send them to jail for life? And if you hesitate then I would like to know why.

I will answer your question in the other thread. The logical inconsistency of your position is torturous.  

They used to punish abortionists and those that procure an abortion.

Punishing them by killing them makes no sense to me - I'm not in favour of the death penalty.

Agreed. Marc seems to find it hard to understand that someone could consider abortion to be morally murder (disagreeing with which seems decidedly un-Orthodox) and yet not think that the way to deal with women who have abortions is to either execute them or lock them up forever. I don't think that either of those (and I oppose execution in all cases) is appropriate for all murderers. It's certainly not appropriate for a woman who has an abortion in a society in which it is legally not murder, in which she is repeatedly told that it is not murder, and where, as a result, her intention is not to take a life but to deal with a medical 'problem'. However, misguided that intention may be, it is not deliberate homicide and yet morally for a Christian (and certainly an Orthodox Christian) it is quite clear that abortion is murder. It's just that rather than holding the individual woman solely responsible for that homicide, it is the society that has led her astray and enabled the abortion that is primarily responsible. Simply saying that abortion is murder does not necessarily require that we consider the woman a murderer, it seems to me. Marc, unfortunately appears not to see that it is possible to hold the more nuanced position that abortion is murder but that the mother is also a victim of our society's attitude to it, if not to the degree that the aborted child is.

James
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Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #898 on: April 10, 2013, 09:45:14 AM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say.. 

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?

I think there has been al lot of intimidating language, not even to mention threats of Jail for Women who have abortions I guess you didnt notice or care to notice.

I've high lighted several of these.

So the pattern in Self righteous Judgemental finger pointing..frustration that it doesn't work..move on to threats of harm/jail/getting roughed up..


And yet, it's incomprehensible to you that this can be objectionable. Truly amazing


Just so you know, it is incredibly difficult to interact with you without losing ones temper, but I suspect that is the goal.

You have focused on and grabbed hold of a meaningless support in this discussion and your flailing around in the attempt to create some imagined injustice has failed miserably.  Abortion is murder, end of story.  You either accept that or reject the Church's teachings provided from God.  All else is trivial tail chasing.  Choose wisely.

I know it's frustrating to be disagreed with. If it's too difficult for you then find another hobby instead of internet posting.. Cooking maybe..That can be very relaxing
That's hardly the problem.  Attempting an adult discussion with someone who exhibits third grade problem solving skills and academic prowess is the problem.  Additionally, a person who claims Orthodoxy yet not only ignores it seemingly with every fiber, actively resists its instruction only compounds the problem.  Your focus is in the wrong place.  You have yet to admit abortion is murder and until you do, your words hold little, if any, value.

.. I think you have a problem when you don't do as well in a debate as your self image would suggest you should be doing.

So is Abortion the exact same thing as any other Murder and will get ( once your are put in charge) Women punished in the same way, execution or long jail time?


Until you can admit, as an Orthodox Christian, abortion is murder, we will not be able to move forward and discuss any of you points.

I've asked Marc twice in the "Politics" forum whether he thinks abortion is murder, without reply yet.  Here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908558.html#msg908558  and here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50954.msg908748.html#msg908748

I am perfectly willing to explain this to you and end your confusion once you answer my question asked of you about 15 times. If abortion is murder why not punish it like any other first degree murder. It has all the elements of first degree murder. To deny that is dishonest. It has premeditation. the intentional taking of a life and even the exchange of money to do the deed. That is easily first degree Murder.

So why not execute women who have had abortions or at least send them to jail for life? And if you hesitate then I would like to know why.

I will answer your question in the other thread. The logical inconsistency of your position is torturous. 


I'll bet you excelled at dodge ball as a kid.

Okay...I'll play your childish little game of "Oh no....YOU go first, then I'll go..." Roll Eyes.

Abortion is murder.  In a society where abortion has been criminalized as homicide/murder (which I realize does not exist in this country, hope that it will one day, and probably won't live to see it), the woman receiving the abortion should be punished as that society so deems.  If the offense of "homicide by abortion" (or whatever) has attached to it a certain punishment, then that is what that society should impose.  Murder, by the way, usually has a range of punishments attached to it, depending on, in this country, which state it has been committed in.  So, not being any kind of expert on these things, I would *suggest*, depending on the circumstances, the mental state of the woman, and probably a number of other mitigating circumstances that I can't think of now, anything between 10 years to life imprisonment, parole and time off for "good behavior" also allowed.  For the one actually performing the abortion, revocation of any medical license forever, and imprisonment for 25-life, no parole.  If a given state has the death penalty and chooses to impose it for that, especially for a repeat or serial offender, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to that.

I'm sorry if my suggestions don't fall completely in line with your overly rigid thinking about what constitutes murder, the lack of any kind of degrees of murder and culpability for it, etc., but I'm not the kind of person who necessarily thinks "any homicide of any kind always deserves the most severe penalty possible".

The reason why I would "hesitate" to execute women who have abortions is the same reason I tend to be against capital punishment in general.  If you want to start a different thread to discuss the pros and cons of capital punishment, be my guest.  Suffice it to say for the purposes of this discussion, I find the intentional killing of anyone disturbing and usually, but not always, avoidable.  Feel free to check out the Catholic Church's position on capital punishment as discussed in the Catechism--I agree with that.

Okay, Sunshine...your "turn"  Roll Eyes....Time for the Quid pro quo.

1. Is abortion murder?
A) Yes
B) No
C) Don't know

2. If abortion is NOT murder, what is it?

Answer me here, or answer me in the "Politics" forum.  They are *NOT* difficult questions.  In fact, my opinion is that they are far easier than the one you demanded I answer and have.  So, yes, time to end what you consider to be my "confusion" about your position on this matter, once and for all.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 09:46:17 AM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #899 on: April 10, 2013, 12:20:16 PM »

Update: J Michael was fully answered in the other thread. He was unable to reply and just called me names and said he was finished.

My post was reasonable and took an even tone. Therefore, it sounds like I won the debate with J Michael but if any one else wants to take a swing go to that thread and answer my post. I think it is a better place to debate since it is in the Politics section so there are fewer restrictions on what can be said.
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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