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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 23960 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« Reply #810 on: April 06, 2013, 03:12:27 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:14:12 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #811 on: April 06, 2013, 04:08:05 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.
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« Reply #812 on: April 06, 2013, 04:50:56 PM »

You can hold an ill-informed, unscientific, idiotic view of what constitutes human life. You cannot act on that belief and kill people because of it.
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« Reply #813 on: April 06, 2013, 05:31:25 PM »

Quote
The reality is abortion is murder.  Murder is a sin.  When you accept this fact, then perhaps we can discuss ways to convince the heretics and heathens of their evil deeds.  Not before.


As long as you continue to act like a judgmental boor then you will be dismissed out of hand by most people and abortions will continue apace.

Good work...
So, to understand you properly, the teachings of God and the Church are judgmental and boring.  Good to know.  Which Protestant denomination are you a member of again?

Edit:  My apologies.  Your profile says you are Orthodox, but you can understand why I would be confused, yes?

I must of miss understood the part about not judging others and to look to your own sins

Lets' summarize then: pointing a judgmental finger is good, threatening people is good, causing people to dismiss your arguments doesnt matter..Got it.


Thanks for adding so much wisdom.

 

Precisely.  You're getting it!

Yes, calling a sin a sin is good.  Especially if it causes them to persecute you for righteousness sake.  If evil men dismiss your arguments it shall be their loss.  Who listened to the prophets?  John the Baptist lost his head for speaking out about a sin.  Christ was nailed to the Cross for pointing out sin and hypocrisy.  Preaching the word of God caused the synagogue to dismiss Stephan's arguments and they dismissed them with rocks.  But he became the first martyr, so their loss, yo!  But every once in a while someone hears you out and has a change of heart.  The Prophet Nathan pointed out King David's sin...that sort of thing usually brings extreme flak... but he brought the King to repentance.

So yeah, Kerdy, JMichael, and Punch are in good company I would say.

Where would you rather stand?  With the Herod the Baby-Killer or with unpopular guys like Christ, the Forerunner, the Martyrs, and the Prophets?

Okay then..Boorish judgmentalism and not too veiled threats of violence against Women is Christian.. Who would have guessed ?




Stop crying.  God hates sissy-like behavior.  Yes, you are being judged.  You are being judged with righteous judgment. 

"Do you indeed speak righteousness, you silent ones? Do you judge uprightly, you sons of men?"  (Psalm 58.1). 

You are silent to judge the evildoers but loud to judge those who judge rightly, to your own perdition. 
 
"You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor." (Lev. 19.15)

While we must aid the needy, we cannot judge unrightously favoring them when they sin, for we are doing them no favor.

"Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time?  Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison."  (Luke 12.56-58)

"Open your mouth, judge righteously, And plead the cause of the poor and needy" (Proverbs 31.9).  Here we are taught to judge righteously against those who are doing no sin among the poor and need and are being oppressed by those who are sinning against them in a greedy manner. 

This means that we must help the needy but uphold the Lord's standards.
 
And know certainly that I, and several others on here, will obey the Lord's command to judge rightly:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."  (John 7.24)

It is a commandment, and I, for one, will follow it.   

Who are you again?

If you are going to impose religious formulations on civil society you better have a large consensus behind it. I think by being obnoxious you may damage building that consensus.

It is perfectly reasonable for an ordinarily prudent person to disagree with you. It is perfectly reasonable not to beleive a zygote is a "Child".

In fact a sane, rationale, good person by any measure, can look at a zygote and not beleive it is a fully formed person with a "soul"

So when you insist on calling people "Murderers" they tune you out.. Therefore, if you really want to reduce abortions you should do those things that may actually do that and avoid doing things that drive people away from considering your idea's. 

ZYGOTE


CHILD




Of course. The blond haired, blue eyed always seem to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to defining personhood. You have made your point well. Frightfully so in fact.



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« Reply #814 on: April 06, 2013, 07:57:23 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

If "An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same", then another equally prudent person (YOU, perhaps??), but one whose conscience has been formed and conformed to the teachings of the Church (although this is not necessarily required as there are atheists with more concern for the lives of the unborn than some "Christians") should be able to show, fairly readily, without recourse to that onerous religious viewpoint you seem to hold in such disdain, that the zygote and the child are one and the same.  DNA testing and photography have come quite a long way, you know.

This, too, is not hard to understand, certainly for one as intelligent and well-educated as yourself, and is a more than fair observation.  If you are feeling "haunted", I'd suggest that it's not by me or anyone else here, but rather by something in yourself.  Hmm......

Murder IS murder.  Abortion IS murder--whether you can discern that a zygote is indeed a human being, or not.  This is what your Church teaches.  You do not have to ram it down anybody's throat with threats of death or life-imprisonment.  You just need to show them, gently and with love,  that the zygote is a human, even if it isn't as cute as the little blond girl in your picture.  Until abortion is accepted by society as murder, with the appropriate consequences and punishments, we'll just have to pray and act as we can that it will, and rely on our faith that God will be both merciful....and just.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 08:12:11 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #815 on: April 06, 2013, 08:12:56 PM »


And know certainly that I, and several others on here, will obey the Lord's command to judge rightly:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."  (John 7.24)

It is a commandment, and I, for one, will follow it.   

Amen.  I has always frustrated me that it seems that the only moral command that Liberals will quote is "you should not judge", and then they even screw that one up.  We judge every day, and we have to.  We judge based on words, actions, history and other such variables.  Those that do not judge anything end up at the bottom of the food chain and very quickly become extinct.  What we can never judge, however, is a person's soul.  It is not unlawful for me to tell you that you are committing a sin by a certain action.  However, I cannot tell you that you are going to Hell for it.  That is only God's to decide.

Er I don't think appealing to Darwinism helps your case if you are arguing as a Christian. We don't base our morality on how it helps us in the survival of the fittest. If we did, we would favor abortion for those who are a burden on society, like the poor.

Do you understand social Darwinism?  I cannot appeal to the other since I do not accept it.  I am mearly stating that if you trust everybody, you will eventually be used by everybody until there is nothing left to use, provided that you are just not flat out killed.

Do you understand Christian moral teaching? We do what we believe is right, regardless of whether other people exploit us for those reasons.
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« Reply #816 on: April 06, 2013, 08:36:37 PM »


And know certainly that I, and several others on here, will obey the Lord's command to judge rightly:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."  (John 7.24)

It is a commandment, and I, for one, will follow it.   

Since ordination to the Priesthood implies guarding the Chalice, that obligation implies judging who can and who cannot receive from that Chalice.

Persons who procure an abortion to kill their own child, and human embryos and fetuses are unborn children, or those who perform an abortion, or help another to procure an abortion are guilty of murder per the Holy Orthodox Canons. Anyone guilty of murder cannot receive from the Chalice, except on their death beds, isn't that true?
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« Reply #817 on: April 06, 2013, 09:28:56 PM »


And know certainly that I, and several others on here, will obey the Lord's command to judge rightly:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."  (John 7.24)

It is a commandment, and I, for one, will follow it.   

Amen.  I has always frustrated me that it seems that the only moral command that Liberals will quote is "you should not judge", and then they even screw that one up.  We judge every day, and we have to.  We judge based on words, actions, history and other such variables.  Those that do not judge anything end up at the bottom of the food chain and very quickly become extinct.  What we can never judge, however, is a person's soul.  It is not unlawful for me to tell you that you are committing a sin by a certain action.  However, I cannot tell you that you are going to Hell for it.  That is only God's to decide.

Er I don't think appealing to Darwinism helps your case if you are arguing as a Christian. We don't base our morality on how it helps us in the survival of the fittest. If we did, we would favor abortion for those who are a burden on society, like the poor.

Do you understand social Darwinism?  I cannot appeal to the other since I do not accept it.  I am mearly stating that if you trust everybody, you will eventually be used by everybody until there is nothing left to use, provided that you are just not flat out killed.

Do you understand Christian moral teaching? We do what we believe is right, regardless of whether other people exploit us for those reasons.

Forgive me, Punch, I shouldn't have been sarcastic.
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« Reply #818 on: April 06, 2013, 09:42:38 PM »


And know certainly that I, and several others on here, will obey the Lord's command to judge rightly:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."  (John 7.24)

It is a commandment, and I, for one, will follow it.   

Since ordination to the Priesthood implies guarding the Chalice, that obligation implies judging who can and who cannot receive from that Chalice.

Persons who procure an abortion to kill their own child, and human embryos and fetuses are unborn children, or those who perform an abortion, or help another to procure an abortion are guilty of murder per the Holy Orthodox Canons. Anyone guilty of murder cannot receive from the Chalice, except on their death beds, isn't that true?

Canon 2 of St. Basil gives 10 years penance before a return to the Chalice.  The Canons of St. John of Constantinople (St. John the Faster) give means by which, through increased asceticism, penances may be lessoned.  Canon 102 of the 6th gives to the Spiritual Father the ability to judge the situation of each and apply the spiritual medicines and remedies either more strictly or more economically.   
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« Reply #819 on: April 07, 2013, 12:20:42 AM »


And know certainly that I, and several others on here, will obey the Lord's command to judge rightly:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."  (John 7.24)

It is a commandment, and I, for one, will follow it.   

Amen.  I has always frustrated me that it seems that the only moral command that Liberals will quote is "you should not judge", and then they even screw that one up.  We judge every day, and we have to.  We judge based on words, actions, history and other such variables.  Those that do not judge anything end up at the bottom of the food chain and very quickly become extinct.  What we can never judge, however, is a person's soul.  It is not unlawful for me to tell you that you are committing a sin by a certain action.  However, I cannot tell you that you are going to Hell for it.  That is only God's to decide.

Er I don't think appealing to Darwinism helps your case if you are arguing as a Christian. We don't base our morality on how it helps us in the survival of the fittest. If we did, we would favor abortion for those who are a burden on society, like the poor.

Do you understand social Darwinism?  I cannot appeal to the other since I do not accept it.  I am mearly stating that if you trust everybody, you will eventually be used by everybody until there is nothing left to use, provided that you are just not flat out killed.

Do you understand Christian moral teaching? We do what we believe is right, regardless of whether other people exploit us for those reasons.

Forgive me, Punch, I shouldn't have been sarcastic.

I did not think you to be sarcastic.  In fact, I agree with you.  I just do not believe that being pushed over by everyone because one does not learn from their mistakes is necessarily right.  If a persons has cheated me in the past, I will be more careful when I deal with him in the future.  That is a form of judgment and I believe that it is NOT the kind of judgment of which Jesus speaks.  Now, calling him a cheat and refusing to ever deal with him again may be crossing the line a bit - in my opinion.  I don't think that we disagree.  We just may have a different threshold.  As to your question above, it is a good question.  Does anyone?  I have found the moral teaching of Gebre here on this list much different than the moral teaching of my Serbian priest.  Yet, I consider them both Christians, and Orthodox at that.  And both have good points.  They just would not agree with each other on certain topics.
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« Reply #820 on: April 07, 2013, 04:48:03 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.

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« Reply #821 on: April 07, 2013, 04:53:00 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.
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« Reply #822 on: April 07, 2013, 05:34:59 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.



Punch made no threats.  Now you have falsely accused your brother. 
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« Reply #823 on: April 07, 2013, 06:43:11 PM »

Question, Marc:

How do you justify, reconcile, or whatever word you wish to use, advoacting your position on abortion, but yet, feel perfectly okay with voting agsindt gay marriage?

Are they both not "forcing" our religious beliefs on each other?
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« Reply #824 on: April 07, 2013, 07:45:45 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.   

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
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« Reply #825 on: April 07, 2013, 08:35:04 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:36:54 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #826 on: April 07, 2013, 09:12:21 PM »

I agree with Marc that it's understandable that others don't believe a zygote is a human being. But I think one can put it in a way such that it doesn't sound like one doubts the Church's teaching on the matter.

So, we can understand that other people don't share our belief in the Resurrection, in Judgment, in Heaven and Hell, and so forth. And if we are to argue for our faith, we do need to "know our enemy", know about the false things other people believe and why they believe them. But it's also important to remember that these other beliefs are false, as in absolutely false, as in not true in any way. It is absolutely false that a zygote is not a human being, however "understandable" it is that others don't share this belief.
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« Reply #827 on: April 07, 2013, 09:24:06 PM »

I agree with Marc that it's understandable that others don't believe a zygote is a human being. But I think one can put it in a way such that it doesn't sound like one doubts the Church's teaching on the matter.

So, we can understand that other people don't share our belief in the Resurrection, in Judgment, in Heaven and Hell, and so forth. And if we are to argue for our faith, we do need to "know our enemy", know about the false things other people believe and why they believe them. But it's also important to remember that these other beliefs are false, as in absolutely false, as in not true in any way. It is absolutely false that a human zygote is not a human being, however "understandable" it is that others don't share this belief.

Fixed it for you. (see bolded part)

A chicken zygote or even early embryo may look like a human, but is not.
However, the genetic composition of a chicken embryo is decidedly distinct from that of a human embryo.
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« Reply #828 on: April 07, 2013, 09:43:53 PM »

I agree with Marc that it's understandable that others don't believe a zygote is a human being. But I think one can put it in a way such that it doesn't sound like one doubts the Church's teaching on the matter.

So, we can understand that other people don't share our belief in the Resurrection, in Judgment, in Heaven and Hell, and so forth. And if we are to argue for our faith, we do need to "know our enemy", know about the false things other people believe and why they believe them. But it's also important to remember that these other beliefs are false, as in absolutely false, as in not true in any way. It is absolutely false that a human zygote is not a human being, however "understandable" it is that others don't share this belief.

Fixed it for you. (see bolded part)

A chicken zygote or even early embryo may look like a human, but is not.
However, the genetic composition of a chicken embryo is decidedly distinct from that of a human embryo.

Thanks. Tongue

Yes, a human zygote is a human, a chicken zygote is a chicken, a troll zygote is a troll. Wink
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« Reply #829 on: April 07, 2013, 10:07:41 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...
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« Reply #830 on: April 07, 2013, 10:08:51 PM »

I agree with Marc that it's understandable that others don't believe a zygote is a human being. But I think one can put it in a way such that it doesn't sound like one doubts the Church's teaching on the matter.

So, we can understand that other people don't share our belief in the Resurrection, in Judgment, in Heaven and Hell, and so forth. And if we are to argue for our faith, we do need to "know our enemy", know about the false things other people believe and why they believe them. But it's also important to remember that these other beliefs are false, as in absolutely false, as in not true in any way. It is absolutely false that a human zygote is not a human being, however "understandable" it is that others don't share this belief.

Fixed it for you. (see bolded part)

A chicken zygote or even early embryo may look like a human, but is not.
However, the genetic composition of a chicken embryo is decidedly distinct from that of a human embryo.

Thank you Maria, on the battlefield of truth.  Lord have mercy. 
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« Reply #831 on: April 07, 2013, 10:12:59 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips, but I can't force you to, and would not do so at "gunpoint."  But she would not be able to partake of the chalice, and neither would you, if you in any way encouraged her.  And yes, I would do everything in my power to contact your priest, and if he denied, his bishop, and if he denied, his Synod, if I found you were guilty of such. 

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« Reply #832 on: April 07, 2013, 10:26:18 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...
What?
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« Reply #833 on: April 07, 2013, 10:31:54 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

Imagine the baby had already been born, and ask yourself the same question.
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« Reply #834 on: April 07, 2013, 10:45:03 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

Imagine the baby had already been born, and ask yourself the same question.

Exactly, I know a beautiful baby girl who was born out of wedlock. An infertile OCA couple adopted her and she became the joy of their lives. If that child had been aborted, she would not have been able to be loved and adopted by that wonderful Orthodox Christian couple, who baptized her.
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« Reply #835 on: April 07, 2013, 11:03:42 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips

With all due respect, Father, this is something that I know more about than you and many people here know about, as much as they may hate to admit it and label me as just a "teenager". My mom had me at fifteen. And it probably screwed up her life, tbh.
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« Reply #836 on: April 07, 2013, 11:05:36 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

Imagine the baby had already been born, and ask yourself the same question.

It hasn't though.

That's the whole problem. You can try as hard as you want to logically convince yourself that it is the same thing, but morals are more than just a logical assertion, but are also an existential concept. And to be quite honest, I don't feel the same sense of sympathy for an unborn fetus as I do for a born baby--maybe because I've never spoken to a fetus or saw one, whereas I've seen several babies. Same way how if someone in some far off country dies, it wouldn't affect most of us, but if someone we know dies, it would sadden us.
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« Reply #837 on: April 07, 2013, 11:39:13 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips

With all due respect, Father, this is something that I know more about than you and many people here know about, as much as they may hate to admit it and label me as just a "teenager". My mom had me at fifteen. And it probably screwed up her life, tbh.


I will make a speculative comment and then an undeniable one:

1. My speculation is that by giving birth to you, your mother did not screw up her life but greatly enhanced her life. No doubt that giving birth and raising you was a challenging and difficult thing for her, but it is challenging and difficult for all mothers regardless of their age or marital status. Abortion probably would have screwed up her life much more. She would have had to bear the guilt and pain of that irrevocable act for the rest of her life. It may have driven her to alcoholism or drug addiction, as it does with many women who have abortions. But while giving birth to you indeed altered her life tremendously, I don't think it screwed up her life.

2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley



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« Reply #838 on: April 07, 2013, 11:40:27 PM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips

With all due respect, Father, this is something that I know more about than you and many people here know about, as much as they may hate to admit it and label me as just a "teenager". My mom had me at fifteen. And it probably screwed up her life, tbh.

LOLz. I hope you find your own posts in 10 years.
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« Reply #839 on: April 08, 2013, 01:08:59 AM »

I agree with Marc that it's understandable that others don't believe a zygote is a human being. But I think one can put it in a way such that it doesn't sound like one doubts the Church's teaching on the matter.

So, we can understand that other people don't share our belief in the Resurrection, in Judgment, in Heaven and Hell, and so forth. And if we are to argue for our faith, we do need to "know our enemy", know about the false things other people believe and why they believe them. But it's also important to remember that these other beliefs are false, as in absolutely false, as in not true in any way. It is absolutely false that a human zygote is not a human being, however "understandable" it is that others don't share this belief.

Fixed it for you. (see bolded part)

A chicken zygote or even early embryo may look like a human, but is not.
However, the genetic composition of a chicken embryo is decidedly distinct from that of a human embryo.

I always understood 'thou shalt not judge' to be to second-guess God. One can't say "You're going to hell!" But certainly one can judge, else we'd have no courts
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« Reply #840 on: April 08, 2013, 01:11:18 AM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

Imagine the baby had already been born, and ask yourself the same question.

It hasn't though.

That's the whole problem. You can try as hard as you want to logically convince yourself that it is the same thing, but morals are more than just a logical assertion, but are also an existential concept. And to be quite honest, I don't feel the same sense of sympathy for an unborn fetus as I do for a born baby--maybe because I've never spoken to a fetus or saw one, whereas I've seen several babies. Same way how if someone in some far off country dies, it wouldn't affect most of us, but if someone we know dies, it would sadden us.

Morals aren't just about experience either.

I've never met you, nor heard you speak, but I hold your life to be as dear as my own.

If you're all in favour of 'out of sight, out of mind' then I'm sure you have no opinion on the treatment of people in other countries (or, nearer to home, in prisons).
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« Reply #841 on: April 08, 2013, 01:16:57 AM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips

With all due respect, Father, this is something that I know more about than you and many people here know about, as much as they may hate to admit it and label me as just a "teenager". My mom had me at fifteen. And it probably screwed up her life, tbh.

My mum had me at 21, but she was single. The hospital staff and social workers came and tried to convince her to give me up because being an unwed mother (in 1967) she was deemed by some to be unfit.

It certainly 'screwed her life up' as she was studying to be a teacher. My arrival ended that.

Getting rid of people because they may be inconvenient is not a good road to trek down.

The whole point of life is that whilst some things are negatives, new positives also appear. I’m sure that my continued help to my mum is of great benefit.

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« Reply #842 on: April 08, 2013, 01:20:44 AM »

An interesting aside:

My mum was fortunate to have the support of her own mother

When I got my first pay my grandmother told me I owed her $20. I asked her how. She said that when she took my mum to the hospital to have me she got a parking-ticket.

She remembered that for all that time and made me pay.

Stories about parsimonious Scots can be true!
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« Reply #843 on: April 08, 2013, 06:49:46 AM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips

With all due respect, Father, this is something that I know more about than you and many people here know about, as much as they may hate to admit it and label me as just a "teenager". My mom had me at fifteen. And it probably screwed up her life, tbh.
To translate for Father, you know bunk.
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« Reply #844 on: April 08, 2013, 09:34:42 AM »

An interesting aside:

My mum was fortunate to have the support of her own mother

When I got my first pay my grandmother told me I owed her $20. I asked her how. She said that when she took my mum to the hospital to have me she got a parking-ticket.

She remembered that for all that time and made me pay.

Stories about parsimonious Scots can be true!

And the "positive" in that for you was that she didn't charge you interest  Grin Grin!
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« Reply #845 on: April 08, 2013, 09:58:28 AM »

Channeling my inner yeshuasiam, but are you all willing to force a young teenage girl who's scared and dumb into bearing a child at gunpoint? Because ultimately, that is what it boils down to...

I want you to shut your teenage mouth and stall your fingertips

With all due respect, Father, this is something that I know more about than you and many people here know about, as much as they may hate to admit it and label me as just a "teenager". My mom had me at fifteen. And it probably screwed up her life, tbh.

Is that *her* thought, or your projection about it, based on some misguided notions drowning in teenage angst?  Have you ever actually asked her about it or spoken with her about it?

No doubt it radically altered the course of her life.  Does that qualify for her life being "screwed up"?  That radical change of course brought new life to the world---YOU  Wink Wink.  Are you somehow implying you would prefer non-existence?  Gebre's second comment above is right on the mark!
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« Reply #846 on: April 08, 2013, 10:43:56 AM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.
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« Reply #847 on: April 08, 2013, 10:44:41 AM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...

The point is that reasonable people can disagree about when life begins and things like the existence of a soul. Therefore, it may be best not to come off as belligerent. That sort of thing can easily be seen as hypocritical when coming from a Christian.  
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« Reply #848 on: April 08, 2013, 10:50:32 AM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say.. 
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« Reply #849 on: April 08, 2013, 11:05:52 AM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say.. 

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #850 on: April 08, 2013, 11:11:00 AM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say.. 

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.

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« Reply #851 on: April 08, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »


2. My undeniable comment is that abortion would have certainly screwed up your life. In fact, it would have violently and painfully ended your life altogether. This is a fact that cannot be denied. So, I'm glad that your mother did the selfless and loving thing by giving you life. I'm glad you're here in this world, and I bet your mom is too.  Smiley

Selam

We agree here completely.  I do have to admit, however, that there are times that I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.  But I am still glad the he is here and on this forum.

I would like to put my boot so far up his rear that a dentist would have to take it out.

As I have been pointing out, there seems to be tendency towards threatening violence from some people here.

That kind of belligerence doesnt square with the message, not the Pro Life message or any sort of Christian message.. People then conclude you're either grossly miss informed or a hypocrite and dismiss what you have to say..  

Oy gevalt!  Unreal.

Do you not know the difference between an honest expression of frustration by someone and an actual, serious threat of bodily harm??  You have children--did you never have the same or a similar thought about them when the said or did something stupid or ridiculous?  Did you follow the thought with an actual, serious threat of bodily harm which you either acted upon or had to restrain yourself from doing??  Or was the thought just that--a thought of frustration that came and went, as so many thoughts do?  Good grief, man!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.



Oh....paleeeeeeeeeeeze! Roll Eyes

See post #822 above.  Are you yet again falsely accusing Punch of making threats when he has not done so?  Or did you have others in mind?  Why not specify precisely who and the actual, real threat that was made?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:16:05 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #852 on: April 08, 2013, 11:43:18 AM »

Actually, I'm beginning to side with Marc on this. Reasonable people can be wrong, so reasonable people can be wrong on abortion. By "reasonable" I mean in general able to construct and understand arguments, and not being driven purely by emotion. I do think that, at some level, believing false things is unreasonable, but it may not be apparent on the surface. Those who are wrong are often simply misinformed, or make all sorts of wrong assumptions based on conventional wisdom. I think Marc is making a good point that we should take ignorance into account when arguing against abortion. Let's not confuse ignorance with malice.

However, I wouldn't use language like "wrong according to your faith", since it makes you sound like you don't share our faith.
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« Reply #853 on: April 08, 2013, 11:47:47 AM »


This is not isolated comment. Several people have expressed violent and or ultra aggressive intentions. If you cant see the hypocrisy in that sort of posturing and the great harm it does then I dont have the words to explain it to you.


You are simply hopeless.  I am pretty much done with you since I think that I would get a more intelligent discussion with a lava lamp.  And for the love of all that is holy, learn to use an apostrophe!
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #854 on: April 08, 2013, 12:30:18 PM »







Perhaps you should consider applying to be a moderator. Sounds like you would enjoy it.

I never said anyone was right or wrong. Must you continually put words in my mouth?

Since reasonable people can disagree on when life begins, then you should moderate your words IMHO if you wish to be persuasive.

An ordinarily prudent person can look at a zygote and then look at a child and not believe they are the same. You may disagree with that but merely on the face of it you have a weak case. You dont have to be an idiot or a killer or a Nazi to look at a zygote and conclude it is not a fully formed Human with a "soul" ( whatever that may be).

This is not hard to understand. It is a fair observation.. Now go haunt someone else.
 

And I can just imagine that you would look at some of the grossly malformed PEOPLE that I worked with in an asylum when I was younger and conclude that they were "not the same", too.  Just like the "Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care", also known as T-4.  Once you have decided that any part of humanity is subhuman, or "not the same", then there is no evil that you can do that would further soil your conscience.

Ummm.... That's a bit of a stretch.

You should just keep in mind that for someone to not see full person-hood in a zygote is understandable. Therefore, I suggest easing back on the name calling and threats.


You should keep in mind what a person thinks may be reasonable has absolutely no bearing on what God and the Church have said is truth.  When you learn to distinguish between man kinds feeble understandings outside the teachings of God from the truth, let us know.  Until then you provide nothing more than vapors which vanish as quickly as they arrived.

I think treating people with respect especially when trying to convert them to your point of view is important..

 Arrogance and threats gets you no where.  

You cant force people to believe in  the doctrines of your Church. You cant scare them into agreement with threats or intimidation or name calling.

Kinda basic stuff.
You know what is basic?  The Church's teaching on abortion.  

I've noticed something about you.  You keep saying "your Church" and "your religion".  In my line of work, we call that a clue.  Just sayin...

The point is that reasonable people can disagree about when life begins and things like the existence of a soul. Therefore, it may be best not to come off as belligerent. That sort of thing can easily be seen as hypocritical when coming from a Christian.  
I would suggest you try it out and let me know how it goes.
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