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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 21095 times) Average Rating: 0
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Punch
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« Reply #630 on: March 22, 2013, 07:53:46 PM »


Restraining yourself from threatening women with life in prison or execution is not really compromising any religious doctrine.


No one is threatening "women" with life in prison or execution.  They are threatening murderers and the animals that perform the deed.  "Women" do not murder their own children. Libtards tend to intentionally misuse words to confuse and decieve.  Those that oppose abortion are somehow against "women".  Pretty much the same way that Libtard gun grabbers consider 20 year old gangsters shooting each other in a drug war to be "children killed by gunfire".

Then it isnt Murder as we understand Murder in todays Society. If you hire someone to kill another person it usually gets the death penalty or life in Prison. It rises to a higher level then an act of Passion. Deliberate Murder for hire gets the severest penalties.

So which is it?



I do not recall any of my writing even remotely caring how "today's society" views murder.  In fact, I believe that I went as far as to clearly state that I did not care what "society" taught.  So, either you are quite confused, or you are using the typical Libtard tactic of "oh look, a puppy".
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« Reply #631 on: March 22, 2013, 08:11:17 PM »


Restraining yourself from threatening women with life in prison or execution is not really compromising any religious doctrine.


No one is threatening "women" with life in prison or execution.  They are threatening murderers and the animals that perform the deed.  "Women" do not murder their own children. Libtards tend to intentionally misuse words to confuse and deceive.  Those that oppose abortion are somehow against "women".  Pretty much the same way that Libtard gun grabbers consider 20 year old gangsters shooting each other in a drug war to be "children killed by gunfire".

Then it isnt Murder as we understand Murder in todays Society. If you hire someone to kill another person it usually gets the death penalty or life in Prison. It rises to a higher level then an act of Passion. Deliberate Murder for hire gets the severest penalties.

So which is it?



Are the Laws of God superior to the laws of society?

If so, is abortion unlawful in the eyes of the Church and of God?  God said that before He formed you in the womb he knew you.  John the Baptist acknowledged the divinity of Christ while BOTH were in the womb.  

As a Christian, I think it is safe to say that if Christ was fully God within the Theotokos's womb, then it is also safe to say that He was fully human as well.  To say otherwise would be heresy.

It is unlawful to kill another person.  Some exceptions are made by the Church for self-defense and for warfare.  I do not remember any exceptions made if someone inconveniences you.  Killing another human being is still murder, even if they put a cramp on your style.  

IF the majority of the population were Christian I think it would fully be within their rights to make the law of man fit with the law of God.  So, if the Law of God were to be the official law of the land, then the legal authorities would be able to exercise justice as they see fit.  If you do wrong, be afraid, for the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.  They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoers.  (The Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 13.)

Whether this is PC or not is not my concern.  The point of this thread is the discussion of the Christian response to abortion.

Then will you support executing Women that have abortions?

Push 1 for yes

Push 2 for no

Push 3 if confused

Why are you so obsessed with killing women?  Is this some dark hidden fantasy of yours?  Excommunicate - yes.  Blow up abortion clinics - yes.  There is much basis for destruction of evil PLACES in the Lives of the Saints.  Kill the women?  Personally, I would rather kill the doctors; slowly, painfully, and publicly.  No doctors, no nice clean medical abortions.  If someone wants to kill themselves with a rusty coat hanger, so what.  But even here, my personal, fallen preference is tempered by the Orthodox Faith. 

The Saints destroyed the pagan temples.  They did not kill the pagan priests.  To me, at least, there is a lesson here.  I do not believe that admitting that something is murder (and there is no question, and never has been, in the Orthodox Church that abortion is murder) and speaking out against such an evil necessarily has to reach a final conclusion of killing someone over it.  In fact, I see the canons, writings of the Fathers, and Lives of the Saints full of examples of calling evil what it is, destroying evil objects and places, applying Church discipline, and supporting governments that chastise, even to the point of death, those that commit evil.  I have seen no case that I can remember where killing of the evil person by an individual Christian, or by the Church, was authorized or sanctioned. 

It is too bad that you try to divert the discussion "is abortion murder" by continuously proposing the necessity that considering it to be such requires one to kill those involved.  In Orthodoxy (and this is at least nominally an Orthodox forum, although there are days that I doubt this), the two ideas are not connected, and have no need to be connected.  Abortion = Murder is not equal to Abortion = Killing Women, no matter how much you try to convince people of this by your illogical rantings.
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« Reply #632 on: March 23, 2013, 12:59:14 AM »


Restraining yourself from threatening women with life in prison or execution is not really compromising any religious doctrine.


No one is threatening "women" with life in prison or execution.  They are threatening murderers and the animals that perform the deed.  "Women" do not murder their own children. Libtards tend to intentionally misuse words to confuse and deceive.  Those that oppose abortion are somehow against "women".  Pretty much the same way that Libtard gun grabbers consider 20 year old gangsters shooting each other in a drug war to be "children killed by gunfire".

Then it isnt Murder as we understand Murder in todays Society. If you hire someone to kill another person it usually gets the death penalty or life in Prison. It rises to a higher level then an act of Passion. Deliberate Murder for hire gets the severest penalties.

So which is it?



Are the Laws of God superior to the laws of society?

If so, is abortion unlawful in the eyes of the Church and of God?  God said that before He formed you in the womb he knew you.  John the Baptist acknowledged the divinity of Christ while BOTH were in the womb.  

As a Christian, I think it is safe to say that if Christ was fully God within the Theotokos's womb, then it is also safe to say that He was fully human as well.  To say otherwise would be heresy.

It is unlawful to kill another person.  Some exceptions are made by the Church for self-defense and for warfare.  I do not remember any exceptions made if someone inconveniences you.  Killing another human being is still murder, even if they put a cramp on your style.  

IF the majority of the population were Christian I think it would fully be within their rights to make the law of man fit with the law of God.  So, if the Law of God were to be the official law of the land, then the legal authorities would be able to exercise justice as they see fit.  If you do wrong, be afraid, for the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.  They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoers.  (The Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 13.)

Whether this is PC or not is not my concern.  The point of this thread is the discussion of the Christian response to abortion.

Then will you support executing Women that have abortions?

Push 1 for yes

Push 2 for no

Push 3 if confused

Why are you so obsessed with killing women?  Is this some dark hidden fantasy of yours?  Excommunicate - yes.  Blow up abortion clinics - yes.  There is much basis for destruction of evil PLACES in the Lives of the Saints.  Kill the women?  Personally, I would rather kill the doctors; slowly, painfully, and publicly.  No doctors, no nice clean medical abortions.  If someone wants to kill themselves with a rusty coat hanger, so what.  But even here, my personal, fallen preference is tempered by the Orthodox Faith.  

The Saints destroyed the pagan temples.  They did not kill the pagan priests.  To me, at least, there is a lesson here.  I do not believe that admitting that something is murder (and there is no question, and never has been, in the Orthodox Church that abortion is murder) and speaking out against such an evil necessarily has to reach a final conclusion of killing someone over it.  In fact, I see the canons, writings of the Fathers, and Lives of the Saints full of examples of calling evil what it is, destroying evil objects and places, applying Church discipline, and supporting governments that chastise, even to the point of death, those that commit evil.  I have seen no case that I can remember where killing of the evil person by an individual Christian, or by the Church, was authorized or sanctioned.  

It is too bad that you try to divert the discussion "is abortion murder" by continuously proposing the necessity that considering it to be such requires one to kill those involved.  In Orthodoxy (and this is at least nominally an Orthodox forum, although there are days that I doubt this), the two ideas are not connected, and have no need to be connected.  Abortion = Murder is not equal to Abortion = Killing Women, no matter how much you try to convince people of this by your illogical rantings.

+1

The only thing I disagree with you about here is that I oppose capital punishment, even for abortionists. And I also do truly care about women dying from trying to perform abortions on themselves with coat hangers. I hate abortion as much as for what it does to the women who have them as for what it does to innocent babies. But I agree with your sentiments. Murder is dangerous, and I see nothing logical about trying to make murder safe.

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« Reply #633 on: March 23, 2013, 11:49:13 AM »


+1

The only thing I disagree with you about here is that I oppose capital punishment, even for abortionists. And I also do truly care about women dying from trying to perform abortions on themselves with coat hangers. I hate abortion as much as for what it does to the women who have them as for what it does to innocent babies. But I agree with your sentiments. Murder is dangerous, and I see nothing logical about trying to make murder safe.

Selam

Gebre,

That is because you have been more successful in transferring what is in your mind to your heart than I have.  My mind spends a lot of time suppressing what is really in my heart.
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« Reply #634 on: March 23, 2013, 03:49:34 PM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 03:50:08 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #635 on: March 23, 2013, 06:00:01 PM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
You are an Orthodox Christian on an Orthodox Christian forum debating against the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  There is a problem in there somewhere.  The reality is abortion is murder.  Murder is a sin.  When you accept this fact, then perhaps we can discuss ways to convince the heretics and heathens of their evil deeds.  Not before.
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« Reply #636 on: March 23, 2013, 06:03:53 PM »

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« Reply #637 on: March 23, 2013, 06:05:11 PM »



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« Reply #638 on: March 24, 2013, 07:31:34 PM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
You are an Orthodox Christian on an Orthodox Christian forum debating against the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  There is a problem in there somewhere.  The reality is abortion is murder.  Murder is a sin.  When you accept this fact, then perhaps we can discuss ways to convince the heretics and heathens of their evil deeds.  Not before.

I am doing no such thing..

It is perfectly reasonable for an ordinarily prudent person not to beleive in a soul or that it enters the body at the moment of conception. If you continue to point a judgmental finger and call women murders then you will have to live with the results you have already reaped, the utter and total failure to curb the number of Abortions...
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« Reply #639 on: March 24, 2013, 09:03:14 PM »

I am doing no such thing..

It is perfectly reasonable for an ordinarily prudent person not to beleive in a soul or that it enters the body at the moment of conception. If you continue to point a judgmental finger and call women murders then you will have to live with the results you have already reaped, the utter and total failure to curb the number of Abortions...

Quote
The reality is abortion is murder.  Murder is a sin.  When you accept this fact, then perhaps we can discuss ways to convince the heretics and heathens of their evil deeds.  Not before.
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« Reply #640 on: March 25, 2013, 09:29:13 AM »









Selam
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« Reply #641 on: March 25, 2013, 11:09:51 AM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
It would be far better to make abortion illegal, just as every other form of murder is illegal.
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« Reply #642 on: March 26, 2013, 01:34:47 AM »

So what kind of Eastern Orthodox anti abortion functions/groups/organizations etc., exist?

I have tried looking for some around here but can't find any. 
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« Reply #643 on: March 26, 2013, 04:26:42 PM »

So what kind of Eastern Orthodox anti abortion functions/groups/organizations etc., exist?

I have tried looking for some around here but can't find any. 

Not sure how you tried. Here's what I've  found after 10 minutes of googling:

http://www.lifecenter.spb.ru/
http://www.russiaprolife.ru/
http://www.odigon.ru/
http://www.diaconia.ru/
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« Reply #644 on: March 26, 2013, 04:32:12 PM »

So what kind of Eastern Orthodox anti abortion functions/groups/organizations etc., exist?

I have tried looking for some around here but can't find any. 

This is the only one I know of or have ever heard of in the U.S.: http://www.oclife.org/
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« Reply #645 on: March 26, 2013, 04:37:36 PM »

This is the only one I know of or have ever heard of in the U.S.: http://www.oclife.org/

This pseudoicon is really bad.

On the other hand not as bad as posting a video of abortion on main page as one of the Russian pages did. No, I didn't post a link to it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 04:37:57 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #646 on: March 26, 2013, 04:44:30 PM »

This is the only one I know of or have ever heard of in the U.S.: http://www.oclife.org/

This pseudoicon is really bad.


Who cares, really?  If that's the only fault you can find with them, they can't be too bad, eh  Grin?
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« Reply #647 on: March 26, 2013, 05:04:38 PM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
It would be far better to make abortion illegal, just as every other form of murder is illegal.

The odds of that happening are pretty much at absolute zero... Fine work you've done.
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« Reply #648 on: March 26, 2013, 05:43:45 PM »

So what kind of Eastern Orthodox anti abortion functions/groups/organizations etc., exist?

I have tried looking for some around here but can't find any. 

Not sure how you tried. Here's what I've  found after 10 minutes of googling:

http://www.lifecenter.spb.ru/
http://www.russiaprolife.ru/
http://www.odigon.ru/
http://www.diaconia.ru/
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« Reply #649 on: March 26, 2013, 05:46:05 PM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
It would be far better to make abortion illegal, just as every other form of murder is illegal.

The odds of that happening are pretty much at absolute zero... Fine work you've done.
And just what have you done to stop abortion?  Giving up and giving in only helps them to continue with boldness.  Fine work you've done.
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« Reply #650 on: March 26, 2013, 05:47:07 PM »

This is the only one I know of or have ever heard of in the U.S.: http://www.oclife.org/

This pseudoicon is really bad.

On the other hand not as bad as posting a video of abortion on main page as one of the Russian pages did. No, I didn't post a link to it.
Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...
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« Reply #651 on: March 26, 2013, 05:49:52 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.
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« Reply #652 on: March 26, 2013, 05:52:09 PM »

The Church teaches abortion is murder.  The buck stops there.
Well said.

I would be less inclined to listen to a person who modified his views on supposedly unchanging eternal objective truths...
For what it's worth, I do not think that Mark1152 disagrees with the above quote.

You mean the buck stops with Orthodox Christians that agree with all the religious pre-suppositions that are involved. It clearly does not stop with the rest of society. Therefore, you need to pick your words carefully and not come off like you are threatening people or forcing your personal religious idea's upon them.

Just a suggestion
This is an Orthodox forum.  You are an Orthodox Christian.  The Orthodox Church states abortion is murder.  Yes, the buck does indeed stop here.  Rather than pacify to the heretical masses, you should be standing firm with the Orthodox Church and attempting to help those who are damning themselves by the deliberate and unashamed murder of millions of innocents.  This is the problem with Christians today.  They would rather make nice with and compromise the truth with those who will take advantage of them instead of speaking bolding Gods messages, the Church’s teachings, and the truth.  No one was ever converted and remained Orthodox by a lie.  Reality is what converts people to Orthodoxy, not make believe.

Be Christian, be Orthodox, unashamedly.  Just a suggestion.

The "reality" is that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to disagree with your Religion. You make all kinds of pre suppostions about Abortion that are wholly and completely drawn from your Religion.

It would be far better to persuade people rather than try to force your religious idea's on them or threaten them with harm. Christianity is what converts people to Christianity... Often they can sniff out hypocrisy and then turn on their heels and exit the conversation...
It would be far better to make abortion illegal, just as every other form of murder is illegal.

OK, again you don't believe it is murder. And not all murder, if you think abortion is murder, is illegal.

You have the various laws which protect people from prosecution when they murder someone "in self-defense".

You have the various laws which protect those in the military against prosecution for "mass murder".

You have laws which protect the state from prosecution when they "murder" the criminals they find it fitting to murder.

You have laws which allow LEOs, from police to park rangers, which allow them to murder people for things as trivial as property damage.

You have laws protecting private property which allows pretty much everyone in this country to murder people on daily basis.

Really, we allow a lot of murdering, by your reckoning of things, which is duplicitous at best.

Really it is quite horrible. And this is just counting the destruction of persons who a physical scientist would call human.
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« Reply #653 on: March 26, 2013, 05:56:51 PM »

This is the only one I know of or have ever heard of in the U.S.: http://www.oclife.org/

This pseudoicon is really bad.

On the other hand not as bad as posting a video of abortion on main page as one of the Russian pages did. No, I didn't post a link to it.
Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

I agree. Cause it serves to obfuscate by using such hysterical emotionalism to cover the multitudes of murders we commit everyday. You. Me. Everyone.

But hey, if we could just stop that one form, we would be OK. Or at least if we feel bad about it. Or put a bumper stick on a car.

Or hey, go down and harass some women about it.

But usually feeling bad is good enough. Especially if it concerns that which you have no control over.
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« Reply #654 on: March 26, 2013, 05:59:49 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.
Not true.  My wife went out on a boat, blew chunks, and was convinced not to go out on another boat.
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« Reply #655 on: March 26, 2013, 06:15:35 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.


You state this as a fact when you couldn't be more wrong. I've talked to many women who were dissuaded from abortion because they saw graphic pictures of aborted babies. They told me that's the one thing that changed their mind. My neighbor told me that she was walking into the clinic when she saw a huge sign of an aborted baby, and she turned around and left. She told me, "There's no way I could do that to my baby. I didn't know that's what abortion did. I thank God for that sign being there." Her children play with our kids almost every day. They're great friends. So, even though I never used those graphic signs, I would never dare to say that they don't convince anyone. I see the evidence of their effectiveness in the lives of my neighbor's children.



Selam
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« Reply #656 on: March 26, 2013, 06:26:18 PM »

So what kind of Eastern Orthodox anti abortion functions/groups/organizations etc., exist?

I have tried looking for some around here but can't find any. 

Not sure how you tried. Here's what I've  found after 10 minutes of googling:

http://www.lifecenter.spb.ru/
http://www.russiaprolife.ru/
http://www.odigon.ru/
http://www.diaconia.ru/

Don't tell augustin. Real old country Orthodox are not pro-life.
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« Reply #657 on: March 26, 2013, 06:41:45 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.


You state this as a fact when you couldn't be more wrong. I've talked to many women who were dissuaded from abortion because they saw graphic pictures of aborted babies. They told me that's the one thing that changed their mind. My neighbor told me that she was walking into the clinic when she saw a huge sign of an aborted baby, and she turned around and left. She told me, "There's no way I could do that to my baby. I didn't know that's what abortion did. I thank God for that sign being there." Her children play with our kids almost every day. They're great friends. So, even though I never used those graphic signs, I would never dare to say that they don't convince anyone. I see the evidence of their effectiveness in the lives of my neighbor's children.



Selam

You have a lot of stories but not much else. If that tactic were effective abortion would be long gone.

An abortion clinic was right next to a local Tex-Mex-Euro restaurant for a long time. For years (decades) people walked pass posters of babies in trash cans and the like to wait impatiently to eat salsa.
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« Reply #658 on: March 26, 2013, 06:42:54 PM »

So what kind of Eastern Orthodox anti abortion functions/groups/organizations etc., exist?

I have tried looking for some around here but can't find any. 

Not sure how you tried. Here's what I've  found after 10 minutes of googling:

http://www.lifecenter.spb.ru/
http://www.russiaprolife.ru/
http://www.odigon.ru/
http://www.diaconia.ru/

Don't tell augustin. Real old country Orthodox are not pro-life.

That's new Russia. Be careful what you wish for.
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« Reply #659 on: March 26, 2013, 06:53:20 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.


You state this as a fact when you couldn't be more wrong. I've talked to many women who were dissuaded from abortion because they saw graphic pictures of aborted babies. They told me that's the one thing that changed their mind. My neighbor told me that she was walking into the clinic when she saw a huge sign of an aborted baby, and she turned around and left. She told me, "There's no way I could do that to my baby. I didn't know that's what abortion did. I thank God for that sign being there." Her children play with our kids almost every day. They're great friends. So, even though I never used those graphic signs, I would never dare to say that they don't convince anyone. I see the evidence of their effectiveness in the lives of my neighbor's children.



Selam
I was going to talk about the effectiveness of these tactics but I knew it would be lost on those who embrace faulty logic.
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« Reply #660 on: March 26, 2013, 07:01:13 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.


You state this as a fact when you couldn't be more wrong. I've talked to many women who were dissuaded from abortion because they saw graphic pictures of aborted babies. They told me that's the one thing that changed their mind. My neighbor told me that she was walking into the clinic when she saw a huge sign of an aborted baby, and she turned around and left. She told me, "There's no way I could do that to my baby. I didn't know that's what abortion did. I thank God for that sign being there." Her children play with our kids almost every day. They're great friends. So, even though I never used those graphic signs, I would never dare to say that they don't convince anyone. I see the evidence of their effectiveness in the lives of my neighbor's children.



Selam

Likewise.  I have heard this from several women.  And while it may not have stopped Abortion from being legal, it certainly stopped THOSE abortions.
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« Reply #661 on: March 26, 2013, 07:21:16 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.
Well, I suppose it's a good thing no one ever put up the results of tobacco on the human body in picture form to deter its use.
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« Reply #662 on: March 26, 2013, 07:41:17 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.

Don't be so sure about that.
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« Reply #663 on: March 26, 2013, 07:47:30 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.
Well, I suppose it's a good thing no one ever put up the results of tobacco on the human body in picture form to deter its use.

They have done some pretty graphic ads against smoking in my area. Didn't you see some of them last year?

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/resources/videos/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/cdc-anti-smoking-ads-2012_n_1364946.html
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« Reply #664 on: March 26, 2013, 08:03:34 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.
Well, I suppose it's a good thing no one ever put up the results of tobacco on the human body in picture form to deter its use.

They have done some pretty graphic ads against smoking in my area. Didn't you see some of them last year?

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/resources/videos/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/cdc-anti-smoking-ads-2012_n_1364946.html
Yes.  I was being naughty with some sarcasm.  This sort of thing is all over Europe.
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« Reply #665 on: March 26, 2013, 08:36:28 PM »

The people I know that were deterred from smoking by the ads were already thinking about quitting. Most of the smokers I know wouldn't quit if their life depended upon it. In fact, one friend quit to have surgery, the surgery was cancelled, so they started smoking again.

Graphic antiabortion images will deter those on the fence sympathetic already to being anti-abortion, and steel the resolve of those that already have an opinion or lean toward being pro-choice. Those that are very much against it will continue to be against abortion. Those that are for it will be steeled in their resolve to keep it available. Graphic imagery polarizes the issue more, it doesn't change the mind of anyone that has already formed an opinion. This issue really requires a middle ground. The vast majority of the population is in the middle on the issue of abortion. If both sides were willing to meet in the middle, much would be accomplished. It is precisely those that insist that all abortion for any/all reasons is murder and unjustifiable that cause those in the middle to go father toward the pro-choice side. When you can't acknowledge that this is an issue more complex than "yes" or "no" you leave out the many, many cases where there is more gray. Then you lose a great deal of people that would otherwise agree with you. Any one that has lived thru, or personally knows someone that has lived thru an ectopic pregnancy knows that it isn't as simple as many of the people on this thread make it out to be. The very idea of encouraging a woman to endure excruciating pain to give a baby in the womb a couple more days of life is just heartless. Either way the baby will die, either the tube will rupture, mom will be saved and the baby will die. Or the tube will rupture, mom will die, and so will baby. The baby doesn't magically attach to the uterine wall when the tube ruptures. It normally attaches to another vital organ. Then if the woman makes it to viability without bleeding to death from rupture (as most women do since placentas don't attach that well to bladders etc). The few that do survive the placenta being attached elsewhere are in the hospital, monitored for the entire pregnancy. And of those monitored, few survive). She will die from blood loss at delivery. If the doctor is very good, and very fast the baby *might* survive if they operate immediately. I mean IMMEDIATELY, my son almost died from a *partial* placental abruption that occurred 10 minutes before he was born. The uterus contracts to stop bleeding after delivery. The other vital organs can't do that. So the placenta remains attached, and the mother continues bleeding. Then there is the issue of an abdominal versus a uterine pregnancy. If the baby implants outside the womb, how exactly are they supposed to be born? Do you think they magically just pop out of the abdomen like an alien?

I'd like to see the men go thru having a testicle explode, or a woman go thru a tube rupture before they go throwing out words like murder, and chance of life for the child regarding ectopic pregnancy. I can understand and see the rationale with pregnancies due to rape and incest. At least then the life of the mother is not gravely threatened. The emotional well being is certainly threatened. But that is a different argument altogether.
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« Reply #666 on: March 26, 2013, 11:20:39 PM »

The discussion of whether abortion is murder, if we limit our discussion to that, is a perfectly appropriate discussion for the Public Forum, since we're talking only about what the Christian churches teach about abortion. To argue, however, one side or the other in the debate over whether abortion should be kept legal is a discussion of politics that has no place on the Public Forum. Please keep this in mind as you consider what you want to post to this thread.

As of right now, many of the more recent posts have delved too much into the politics of abortion and will be split off and moved to the Politics board as soon as someone who's not as tired as I am right now is able to review them. Until then, anyone who submits another post to this thread to discuss abortion legislation will be given a formal warning for posting politics to the Public Forum.


Apologies. I am not sure if a prior post violated this. I didn't read it as the thread is rather long.

EDIT: This is a situation where I wish I could report myself to the mods . . .
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« Reply #667 on: March 26, 2013, 11:34:10 PM »

Just as there are times when killing another human being is justified in the Canons (war and self-defense. Even though there is a penance, it is not the same, nor nearly as harsh, as murder), there are times when abortion would be a form of self defense.  There are also those (including myself) that take this into account when we say that abortion is murder.  But to allow something to be completely legal for the reasons mention in the post above is absurd argument against the murderous nature of abortion.  Just as in self defense (another hot topic were not everyone agrees), the killing of another human is not an accident.  It is also not a state authorized punishment for a crime committed.  It is one person saving their own skin by killing someone else.  How is abortion to save a woman's life any different?  I am a strong proponent of Capital Punishment for murder, and have written so many times on this list.  I am also a strong proponent for a person's individual right to protect themselves, and carry a weapon myself for that purpose, knowing that using it for such would bar me from any future ability to serve in the Priesthood, as well as subjecting me to possible temporary excommunication (provided that there are any "Orthodox" who still follow the canons when it does not suit them).  I do not see my position on abortion at all inconsistent with my views on murder.  

I do not see why graphic images of what is going to happen during an abortion have any bearing on whether or not a woman should be allowed to save herself or not.  I know what a gun does to someone, and I have seen it first hand.  That does not stop me from carrying one.  Likewise, if a woman were to go through the pain of a pregnancy as mentioned in the post above, a doubt that a picture of a torn up fetus is going to alter her decision all that much.  Just because it is occasionally necessary to use a weapon in self defense, that does not mean that we should make it legal, or consider it moral, for anyone to shoot anyone they don't like for any reason.  Likewise, the occasional necessity to use an abortion to save a woman's life is no argument for abortion on demand.
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« Reply #668 on: March 26, 2013, 11:53:30 PM »


The odds of that happening are pretty much at absolute zero... Fine work you've done.

Ahem 

North Dakota bans most abortions
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« Reply #669 on: March 27, 2013, 12:03:45 AM »

Again, as for the issue of graphic signs...

Although some choose to ignore the fact that women have indeed been deterred from abortion by seeing graphic signs, as I mentioned previously, I actually know some of them. As I said, one of these women is my next door neighbor. She was headed into an abortion clinic determined to have an abortion when the image of an aborted baby stopped her in her tracks and caused her to choose life. So, the assertion that graphic images only serve to entrench opinions already formed is an unfounded assertion that is contrary to the facts. Of course, Orthonorm's response to my post was to imply that I am lying about my neighbor. But the "liar, liar, pants on fire" argument seems particularly silly, even for Orthonorm.

Exposure to the truth does not guarantee that those who see the truth will alter their lives accordingly. But nobody can choose how to respond to the truth if they don't first know what the truth is. Like war, most people are completely unaware of the grim, gruesome realities of abortion. It is simply a political issue that is discussed with theories that are divorced from realities. Some Pro-Life activists feel compelled to confront our anesthetized society with the reality of what abortion actually looks like. Some will look at the images and continue to bury their obstinate heads in Babylon's sand. But others will see the truth and be moved to think and act differently about abortion.

Protestants don't want Christ portrayed on the Cross. They want the Cross sterilized and bloodless. But we show Christ's suffering. We do so because the truth of His passion is what provides our redemption. Some people hate the truth of the Cross. They want a bloodless, comfortable religion that is free from suffering. Do we dare criticize icons of the Crucifixion with the logic that we will only drive people further away from the Orthodox Faith? God forbid such madness!


Selam
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« Reply #670 on: March 27, 2013, 12:04:15 AM »

Just as there are times when killing another human being is justified in the Canons (war and self-defense. Even though there is a penance, it is not the same, nor nearly as harsh, as murder), there are times when abortion would be a form of self defense.  There are also those (including myself) that take this into account when we say that abortion is murder.  But to allow something to be completely legal for the reasons mention in the post above is absurd argument against the murderous nature of abortion.  Just as in self defense (another hot topic were not everyone agrees), the killing of another human is not an accident.  It is also not a state authorized punishment for a crime committed.  It is one person saving their own skin by killing someone else.  How is abortion to save a woman's life any different?  I am a strong proponent of Capital Punishment for murder, and have written so many times on this list.  I am also a strong proponent for a person's individual right to protect themselves, and carry a weapon myself for that purpose, knowing that using it for such would bar me from any future ability to serve in the Priesthood, as well as subjecting me to possible temporary excommunication (provided that there are any "Orthodox" who still follow the canons when it does not suit them).  I do not see my position on abortion at all inconsistent with my views on murder.  

I do not see why graphic images of what is going to happen during an abortion have any bearing on whether or not a woman should be allowed to save herself or not.  I know what a gun does to someone, and I have seen it first hand.  That does not stop me from carrying one.  Likewise, if a woman were to go through the pain of a pregnancy as mentioned in the post above, a doubt that a picture of a torn up fetus is going to alter her decision all that much.  Just because it is occasionally necessary to use a weapon in self defense, that does not mean that we should make it legal, or consider it moral, for anyone to shoot anyone they don't like for any reason.  Likewise, the occasional necessity to use an abortion to save a woman's life is no argument for abortion on demand.


^ I can respect your thoughts Punch, even if I don't agree with all of them.


Selam
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« Reply #671 on: March 27, 2013, 03:33:56 PM »


The odds of that happening are pretty much at absolute zero... Fine work you've done.

Ahem 

North Dakota bans most abortions

I was referring to Roe v Wade which has no possibility of being over turned.

Abortion rates are still well over 1 million per year in the USA.
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« Reply #672 on: March 27, 2013, 03:51:25 PM »

Yes, showing it in its purest violent form is just wrong...

Making someone throw up has never convinced anyone.


You state this as a fact when you couldn't be more wrong. I've talked to many women who were dissuaded from abortion because they saw graphic pictures of aborted babies. They told me that's the one thing that changed their mind. My neighbor told me that she was walking into the clinic when she saw a huge sign of an aborted baby, and she turned around and left. She told me, "There's no way I could do that to my baby. I didn't know that's what abortion did. I thank God for that sign being there." Her children play with our kids almost every day. They're great friends. So, even though I never used those graphic signs, I would never dare to say that they don't convince anyone. I see the evidence of their effectiveness in the lives of my neighbor's children.



Selam

You have a lot of stories but not much else. If that tactic were effective abortion would be long gone.

An abortion clinic was right next to a local Tex-Mex-Euro restaurant for a long time. For years (decades) people walked pass posters of babies in trash cans and the like to wait impatiently to eat salsa.



nvm

If there are people here who don't "get" it by now.... Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:58:08 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #673 on: March 27, 2013, 09:22:56 PM »

So a guy I was talking to seriously did not know that abortion has been legal in every state for 40 years.

Huh
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« Reply #674 on: March 28, 2013, 04:58:29 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.
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