Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 30604 times)

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Offline Arachne

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #450 on: February 28, 2013, 12:50:24 PM »
And maybe the father wants the baby.

Nice job ignoring this part.  I guess fathers actually wanting to be fathers doesn’t matter anymore.

Then they should only bed women who want to be mothers. Preferably after marrying them.

Yes, they should.  As should women only bed men who want to be fathers.  Preferably after marrying them.

Ah, wouldn't that make things so much simpler. *le sigh*

Wait...are you saying that responsibility goes both ways?  That women are capable of making rational decisions as well? 

That's crazy talk.

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Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #451 on: February 28, 2013, 12:51:29 PM »
And maybe the father wants the baby.

Nice job ignoring this part.  I guess fathers actually wanting to be fathers doesn’t matter anymore.

Then they should only bed women who want to be mothers. Preferably after marrying them.

Yes, they should.  As should women only bed men who want to be fathers.  Preferably after marrying them.

Wait...are you saying that responsibility goes both ways?  That women are capable of making rational decisions as well?  

That's crazy talk.

Well, alright....The part about women making rational decisions would, I guess, be dependent upon where in their menstrual cycle they are.  ;D ;D

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« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 12:54:43 PM by J Michael »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #452 on: February 28, 2013, 02:03:43 PM »
It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap. The way I see it is that if it takes two people to make a baby, then it takes two people to decide what to do with it.

When men find a way to carry and birth the babies they want and their women don't, then they will have an equal say. Until then, all the decisions are firmly on the woman's side.

This is one of the most useless and baseless arguments I have ever heard in my life, ever.

Uh oh..didnt your parents ever have "The Talk" with you?  :)
Which has nothing at all to do with the utter uselessness of the above pseudo argument.

Well..Men cant be impregnated.. Therefore, the decision making are the Woman's. She is the one carrying the baby.  

Kinda basic
Kinda basically wrong

You may not like it but that's the situation. Impregnation is within the Woman's body.. That means she has more say so.. And should.. Live with it.
It takes two people to make a baby, so 50% of it is the property of the father.  If she wants to terminate the baby, should should be willing to compensate monetarily with an agreed amount by the father.  

By the way,  surrogate mothers don't get to terminate based on the foolish terms you stated.  Nonsense and a failed reasoning.

Surrogate mothers sign a contract and waive their rights.. It they didnt, they would have all the say so.. Your information is lacking so your logic is flawed :)

Men have few rights and lots and lots of responsibility if they get a woman pregnant. This is not only the legal situation but reflects natural law IMHO.

Human babies are not property and dealing with them does not fall under property law, formally speaking.

How is this natural law?  A man does not have a right to sex on demand.  Thus, if a woman gets pregnant, she had an equal say in the decision.  I agree with you that a man doesn't have many rights but lots of responsibilities, as things are, but I do not see this as being right in any way, shape, or form.  If you want to do law of the jungle, a woman does have a responsibility to pick a man who will do these things by the nature of his character and suffer the consequences for choosing a cad.

The Man's participation  in procreation is momentary. The Woman carries the baby, risks her own life and body to deliver it (not to even mention that she must bare great pain).She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it. Pregnancy itself occurs within her body. Therefore, she has more say so. It's a natural consiquence of the process .
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 02:04:38 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #453 on: February 28, 2013, 02:43:10 PM »
Since half of the arguments you used happen when the man has rights by your own definition......
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #454 on: February 28, 2013, 02:49:16 PM »
Since half of the arguments you used happen when the man has rights by your own definition......

Come again?

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #455 on: February 28, 2013, 03:33:17 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #456 on: February 28, 2013, 04:33:03 PM »
Then they should only bed women who want to be mothers. Preferably after marrying them.

The way I see it is that sexual intercourse--excluding rape--takes the consent of two people. I think that any two people having sex without taking precautions or communicating what they want to do if the woman conceives are pretty stupid. I really hate the victim-complex that society gives to women. A guy impregnates someone's daughter, he gets blamed more than anything, even though she consented to it, a woman is left with a kid, the father is blamed for impregnating her (even though she consented), a woman leaves her husband and demands alimony because she can't find a job, that's her fault for putting her trust into the wrong man and not having a back-up plan on what to do if they ever separated or he died. On the other hand though, if a greedy or manipulative woman takes advantage of a man or uses him, no one cares at all and blames it on him for being stupid, yet, the moment we even suggest that maybe the woman is responsible for something, the feminists immediately accuse us of being misogynists.

Anyhow, if morally you believe that raising a child is the responsibility of both parents, then why shouldn't the father be allowed to raise up the child on his own if the mother does not want it? If the woman can force a deadbeat father to pay child support for the child, then why can't a man force a deadbeat mother to birth the baby for him to have?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #457 on: February 28, 2013, 04:34:18 PM »
The Apostles mentioned abortion? And they said the word "abortion" itself, not something else? This happened when?

 ???



From The Didache:
Quote
And this is the second commandment of the teaching. 2 Thou shalt do no murder, thou
shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication,
thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not
murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born,

http://www.annomundi.com/bible/didache.pdf

Questions?
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #458 on: February 28, 2013, 04:50:45 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:51:14 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #459 on: February 28, 2013, 05:32:39 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #460 on: February 28, 2013, 05:35:35 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

They have never been heard of before because the idea that men needed a 'right' to prevent their children from being murdered would have struck previous generations as idiotic. Only when abortion (which had never been accepted in Christendom) becomes accepted can a man's 'right' to prevent his child from being aborted be meaningful.

Personally, I don't think framing the issue in terms of 'men's rights' is useful for an understanding of the real moral issues at play here. But I support laws requiring the father's consent for abortion if they will prevent some abortions.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #461 on: February 28, 2013, 05:40:44 PM »
No!  No!  You have to understand that libtards believe that they have all the rights and the rest of us have the responsibility to foot the bill.  

Anyone who thinks that a Father is tangential is a complete idiot, and one of the reasons that we have the problems that we have in this country.  They also have absolutely NO understanding of Fatherhood.  Typical for the emasculated mush that passes for males these days.  I suppose that such a person would think that God is really a woman.

Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #462 on: February 28, 2013, 05:42:22 PM »
+1.

No!  No!  You have to understand that libtards believe that they have all the rights and the rest of us have the responsibility to foot the bill.  

Anyone who thinks that a Father is tangential is a complete idiot, and one of the reasons that we have the problems that we have in this country.  They also have absolutely NO understanding of Fatherhood.  Typical for the emasculated mush that passes for males these days.  I suppose that such a person would think that God is really a woman.

Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #463 on: February 28, 2013, 06:08:49 PM »
Isa is a father and he's a greater parent to his children than their mother. I would hardly call his role in their lives as "tangential."
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 06:09:01 PM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #464 on: February 28, 2013, 08:39:48 PM »
And maybe the father wants the baby.

Nice job ignoring this part.  I guess fathers actually wanting to be fathers doesn’t matter anymore.

Then they should only bed women who want to be mothers. Preferably after marrying them.
Perhaps women who do not want children shouldn't bed men.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #465 on: February 28, 2013, 08:41:59 PM »
It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap. The way I see it is that if it takes two people to make a baby, then it takes two people to decide what to do with it.

When men find a way to carry and birth the babies they want and their women don't, then they will have an equal say. Until then, all the decisions are firmly on the woman's side.

This is one of the most useless and baseless arguments I have ever heard in my life, ever.

Uh oh..didnt your parents ever have "The Talk" with you?  :)
Which has nothing at all to do with the utter uselessness of the above pseudo argument.

Well..Men cant be impregnated.. Therefore, the decision making are the Woman's. She is the one carrying the baby.  

Kinda basic
Kinda basically wrong

You may not like it but that's the situation. Impregnation is within the Woman's body.. That means she has more say so.. And should.. Live with it.
It takes two people to make a baby, so 50% of it is the property of the father.  If she wants to terminate the baby, should should be willing to compensate monetarily with an agreed amount by the father.  

By the way,  surrogate mothers don't get to terminate based on the foolish terms you stated.  Nonsense and a failed reasoning.

Surrogate mothers sign a contract and waive their rights.. It they didnt, they would have all the say so.. Your information is lacking so your logic is flawed :)

Men have few rights and lots and lots of responsibility if they get a woman pregnant. This is not only the legal situation but reflects natural law IMHO.

Human babies are not property and dealing with them does not fall under property law, formally speaking.

How is this natural law?  A man does not have a right to sex on demand.  Thus, if a woman gets pregnant, she had an equal say in the decision.  I agree with you that a man doesn't have many rights but lots of responsibilities, as things are, but I do not see this as being right in any way, shape, or form.  If you want to do law of the jungle, a woman does have a responsibility to pick a man who will do these things by the nature of his character and suffer the consequences for choosing a cad.

The Man's participation  in procreation is momentary. The Woman carries the baby, risks her own life and body to deliver it (not to even mention that she must bare great pain).She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it. Pregnancy itself occurs within her body. Therefore, she has more say so. It's a natural consiquence of the process .
This reasoning is garbage.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #466 on: February 28, 2013, 08:52:57 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?

Men have to provide

And they can't tell her what to do :)

Paradise is for the next life
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Shiny

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #467 on: February 28, 2013, 10:47:05 PM »
If it was all about the mother having a say, then I don't think she would mind not getting child support either.

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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #468 on: March 01, 2013, 12:54:34 AM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?

Men have to provide

And they can't tell her what to do :)

Paradise is for the next life
They should, but don't always do what they should.  Ask my sister.

I tell my wife what to do all the time and she me.  And we both listen.  It's called not being stupid.

Then people should stop trying to achieve it in this life.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #469 on: March 01, 2013, 10:36:56 AM »
And maybe the father wants the baby.

Nice job ignoring this part.  I guess fathers actually wanting to be fathers doesn’t matter anymore.

Then they should only bed women who want to be mothers. Preferably after marrying them.
Perhaps women who do not want children shouldn't bed men anyone.

Fixed it  ;D.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #470 on: March 01, 2013, 10:44:42 AM »
And maybe the father wants the baby.

Nice job ignoring this part.  I guess fathers actually wanting to be fathers doesn’t matter anymore.

Then they should only bed women who want to be mothers. Preferably after marrying them.
Perhaps women who do not want children shouldn't bed men anyone.

Fixed it  ;D.
Even better. :)

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #471 on: March 01, 2013, 11:13:08 AM »
If it was all about the mother having a  THE ONLY say, then I don't think she would should mind not getting child support either.



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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #472 on: March 01, 2013, 11:18:28 AM »
Quote
To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before
Ah, so father's rights have never been heard of before? Wow.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #473 on: March 01, 2013, 12:47:21 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?

Men have to provide

And they can't tell her what to do :)

Paradise is for the next life
They should, but don't always do what they should.  Ask my sister.

I tell my wife what to do all the time and she me.  And we both listen.  It's called not being stupid.

Then people should stop trying to achieve it in this life.

Yes, but it has to be a voluntary listening.. Welcome to America
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #474 on: March 01, 2013, 12:51:10 PM »
Quote
To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before
Ah, so father's rights have never been heard of before? Wow.

To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #475 on: March 01, 2013, 12:54:46 PM »
Quote
To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before
Ah, so father's rights have never been heard of before? Wow.

To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.



Any married man who doesn't know this, is, well...just plain stupid  ;D.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #476 on: March 01, 2013, 11:57:42 PM »
Your reasoning for men having no rights to the kid before birth are because its the mom's body. Yet these arguments:

Quote
She breast feeds it  her own milk and is the one that must initially bond with it
Occur outside the body. SO using them as a reason to limit the men's rights because of it being the mother's body dont make sense. Unless Im reading this wrong.

The Mothers role is central. The Fathers role is tangential.
Gestation occurs inside her body. Breast feeding comes from her body and is sucked from it. Mother's bare the pain of childbirth...etc.

Men's rights arent being limited. To "limit" a right it must first exist. You seem to want to call for new rights that have never been heard of before.  

So why do men have responsibilities if they have no rights? 

If it is true as you say, that since a woman must carry the child, thus has the right to determine life or death, why the heck can't she foot the bill?

Men have to provide

And they can't tell her what to do :)

Paradise is for the next life
They should, but don't always do what they should.  Ask my sister.

I tell my wife what to do all the time and she me.  And we both listen.  It's called not being stupid.

Then people should stop trying to achieve it in this life.

Yes, but it has to be a voluntary listening.. Welcome to America
Yes.  Maturity, being a grown up and not a sniveling child.  It has nothing to do with America.

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #477 on: March 02, 2013, 02:11:52 AM »
To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.

Quote
An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.

Yeah, so it's not my child or decision when she wants to abort it, but when she wants child-support, then it's my responsibility. Makes perfect sense. Seems very matriarchial and inconsistent to me, tbh. Either the child is fully the father's responsibility as well, and thus he gets a say in whether or not she can have an abortion if he is expected to pay child-support, or he has absolutely no obligation to the child and the mother at all. You can't have both. That shifty, selfish liberal logic of "It's my freedom at your expense," isn't going to work here.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 02:12:10 AM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #478 on: March 02, 2013, 03:02:26 AM »
I never thought I'd see the day when JamesR would be the voice of reason.

Amazing.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #479 on: March 02, 2013, 07:34:07 AM »
I never thought I'd see the day when JamesR would be the voice of reason.

Amazing.

I've got my fingers crossed here, too. Well done, JamesR.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #480 on: March 02, 2013, 07:45:04 AM »
I never thought I'd see the day when JamesR would be the voice of reason.

Amazing.
Doesn't everything JamesR say not in framework of reason?
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #481 on: March 02, 2013, 11:01:04 AM »
Here's a thought: far fewer men would have to pay child support if they never shacked up with their girlfriends, or used condoms more often. Sad but true. Don't even think about having a baby with someone unless you are confident that the relationship is healthy and the other person has a reliable character. You can love anyone, but you can't always be a good parent with anyone. These days, people start young, don't know what they're doing, get an apartment together because they want to save on the bills... and a year later you see them on the Judge Judy show. Awful. There are ways to save yourself some trouble.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #482 on: March 02, 2013, 12:19:51 PM »
To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.

Quote
An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.

Yeah, so it's not my child or decision when she wants to abort it, but when she wants child-support, then it's my responsibility. Makes perfect sense. Seems very matriarchial and inconsistent to me, tbh. Either the child is fully the father's responsibility as well, and thus he gets a say in whether or not she can have an abortion if he is expected to pay child-support, or he has absolutely no obligation to the child and the mother at all. You can't have both. That shifty, selfish liberal logic of "It's my freedom at your expense," isn't going to work here.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.


Because they are not married he has no legal standing. He has no right to any sort of access or decision making. For example, if the Woman becomes comatose or near death, he can't make any decisions as to her care unless she specifically had named him before hand in a living will or such the like..

No standing.. None...

Society does not look kindly on dead beat dads.. That attitude is far from "liberal shiftiness". If you father a child and dont do right by them :) the strong hand of the State will come down on you. You obviously don't watch the Maury Povitch show.

     
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 12:29:09 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #483 on: March 02, 2013, 01:35:39 PM »
The Apostles mentioned abortion? And they said the word "abortion" itself, not something else? This happened when?

 ???



From The Didache:
Quote
And this is the second commandment of the teaching. 2 Thou shalt do no murder, thou
shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication,
thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not
murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born,

http://www.annomundi.com/bible/didache.pdf

Questions?

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #484 on: March 02, 2013, 01:38:33 PM »
If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #485 on: March 02, 2013, 03:28:24 PM »
The Apostles mentioned abortion? And they said the word "abortion" itself, not something else? This happened when?

 ???



From The Didache:
Quote
And this is the second commandment of the teaching. 2 Thou shalt do no murder, thou
shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication,
thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not
murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born,

http://www.annomundi.com/bible/didache.pdf

Questions?

Even if God Himself said it, discussion would continue. Well, not actual discussion, but you get it.

Yeah...I get it.  ::)
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #486 on: March 02, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »
If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now that's an interesting take on it.  But...whatever happened to "it takes two to tango?" Now, who shall be killed?  Here's a suggestion....no one.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #487 on: March 02, 2013, 03:36:31 PM »
Here's a thought: far fewer men would have to pay child support if they never shacked up with their girlfriends, or used condoms more often. Sad but true. Don't even think about having a baby with someone unless you are confident that the relationship is healthy and the other person has a reliable character. You can love anyone, but you can't always be a good parent with anyone. These days, people start young, don't know what they're doing, get an apartment together because they want to save on the bills... and a year later you see them on the Judge Judy show. Awful. There are ways to save yourself some trouble.

Ways to save yourself from trouble: Women...keep your legs crossed; Men...keep your penis in your pants; Men and Women...have sexual intercourse in the context of marriage.  (I'm not claiming any of this is necessarily "easy".  Who said life would be "easy"?)

And yeah, you're right...the Judge Judy show, from the very few little snippets of it I've seen, is pretty awful.

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #488 on: March 02, 2013, 03:47:18 PM »
Here's a thought: far fewer men would have to pay child support if they never shacked up with their girlfriends, or used condoms more often. Sad but true. Don't even think about having a baby with someone unless you are confident that the relationship is healthy and the other person has a reliable character. You can love anyone, but you can't always be a good parent with anyone. These days, people start young, don't know what they're doing, get an apartment together because they want to save on the bills... and a year later you see them on the Judge Judy show. Awful. There are ways to save yourself some trouble.

If I knocked someone up, I'd ask her to marry me (even if we hated each other) so the kid would have both parents in its life, and if she didn't want to, then I'd beg her to give me full custody of it. It's called taking responsibility. Plus, single fathers are chick magnets!  ;)
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #489 on: March 02, 2013, 03:49:14 PM »
If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now, now, it takes two people to have sex. This is another somewhat odd, sexist view in society. The woman is always seen as this dumb victim who was taken advantage of or fooled due to her "simple mind," and the man is always seen as this horrible manipulator who took advantage of her. In reality, both of them in most cases knew exactly what they were doing and consented to it.

...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #490 on: March 02, 2013, 03:50:40 PM »
Here's a thought: far fewer men would have to pay child support if they never shacked up with their girlfriends, or used condoms more often. Sad but true. Don't even think about having a baby with someone unless you are confident that the relationship is healthy and the other person has a reliable character. You can love anyone, but you can't always be a good parent with anyone. These days, people start young, don't know what they're doing, get an apartment together because they want to save on the bills... and a year later you see them on the Judge Judy show. Awful. There are ways to save yourself some trouble.

If I knocked someone up, I'd ask her to marry me (even if we hated each other) so the kid would have both parents in its life, and if she didn't want to, then I'd beg her to give me full custody of it. It's called taking responsibility. Plus, single fathers are chick magnets!  ;)

Don't "knock" someone up and you won't have to marry her, even if you hated each other.  Simple!

But, your willingness to take responsibility for your actions is highly commendable, JamesR!
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #491 on: March 02, 2013, 03:54:38 PM »
Because they are not married he has no legal standing. He has no right to any sort of access or decision making. For example, if the Woman becomes comatose or near death, he can't make any decisions as to her care unless she specifically had named him before hand in a living will or such the like..

Not on her behalf, but a decision about their child is different from a decision about her individual life.

Quote
No standing.. None...

Legally or morally? I'd argue from a moral standpoint that he does.

Quote
Society does not look kindly on dead beat dads..

Yeah, but they practically worship a dead beat mother's "right" to kill a father's child on the grounds that it isn't his responsibility, but when they want to have the child, it becomes his responsibility to pay child support for it.

Quote
If you father a child and dont do right by them :) the strong hand of the State will come down on you. You obviously don't watch the Maury Povitch show.

That's a tautology; I'm not denying how the state works. What I'm saying is that it works in a pretty bull-spitty way that is inconsistent from a logical and ethical standpoint.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #492 on: March 02, 2013, 09:31:22 PM »
Here's a thought: far fewer men would have to pay child support if they never shacked up with their girlfriends, or used condoms more often. Sad but true. Don't even think about having a baby with someone unless you are confident that the relationship is healthy and the other person has a reliable character. You can love anyone, but you can't always be a good parent with anyone. These days, people start young, don't know what they're doing, get an apartment together because they want to save on the bills... and a year later you see them on the Judge Judy show. Awful. There are ways to save yourself some trouble.
This applies to women as well.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #493 on: March 02, 2013, 09:33:14 PM »
To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.

Quote
An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.

Yeah, so it's not my child or decision when she wants to abort it, but when she wants child-support, then it's my responsibility. Makes perfect sense. Seems very matriarchial and inconsistent to me, tbh. Either the child is fully the father's responsibility as well, and thus he gets a say in whether or not she can have an abortion if he is expected to pay child-support, or he has absolutely no obligation to the child and the mother at all. You can't have both. That shifty, selfish liberal logic of "It's my freedom at your expense," isn't going to work here.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.


Because they are not married he has no legal standing. He has no right to any sort of access or decision making. For example, if the Woman becomes comatose or near death, he can't make any decisions as to her care unless she specifically had named him before hand in a living will or such the like..

No standing.. None...

Society does not look kindly on dead beat dads.. That attitude is far from "liberal shiftiness". If you father a child and dont do right by them :) the strong hand of the State will come down on you. You obviously don't watch the Maury Povitch show.

     
So we like to lean on legalities for killing children and ignore them to do recreational drugs.  Interesting.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #494 on: March 02, 2013, 09:34:50 PM »
If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.
And his father for having had him, but not the mother.  She is innocent.