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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 20235 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #360 on: February 25, 2013, 07:12:43 PM »

single parent = single mother?

Either will do, although the single mother type is more likely.

How exactly is any of this an argument for killing children? Because it's difficult?

Not everyone is convinced that abortion is 'killing children'.
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« Reply #361 on: February 25, 2013, 07:15:04 PM »

single parent = single mother?

Either will do, although the single mother type is more likely.

And the other not irrelevant, making the point more moot.


How exactly is any of this an argument for killing children? Because it's difficult?

Not everyone is convinced that abortion is 'killing children'.

Irrelevant. Unless you know of an alternative method to making children.
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« Reply #362 on: February 25, 2013, 07:21:10 PM »

It's not irrelevant if you simply disagree with it. Smiley

Even on this thread, we're far from a unified front. Several among us struggle with the issue, and have expressed their doubts further up the thread. Feel free to check them while I get a good night's sleep.

I'm convinced that we will be done with abortion only when every woman can say, 'I'm against abortion, so I won't have one'. Forcing the issue will just end in tears all around.
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« Reply #363 on: February 25, 2013, 07:37:59 PM »

Now, a woman deciding to have her child despite her man's pressure to have an abortion - that's an entirely unilateral decision, and based on your 'unilateral decision, unilateral responsibility' quote further up, the father owes nothing to nobody. Which is, frankly, a despicable thing even to suggest.

I think it would do a great deal of good if no child support could be collected by a woman who was not married to the father at the time of conception.
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« Reply #364 on: February 25, 2013, 07:47:32 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...
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« Reply #365 on: February 25, 2013, 08:07:54 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.
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« Reply #366 on: February 25, 2013, 08:09:07 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old.  

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

I've never heard of that. I really don't think they'll be giving free contraceptives to two-year-olds. Where do you get this stuff?

Anyway, anything other than condoms can get pretty expensive. Hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year. At least. I've worked in health care for years. I know what stuff costs. If you're going to tell people not to have sex, number one that doesn't work, and number two, there are plenty of poor married people. Are you going to tell all of them not to have sex? How much strain is that going to put on the marriage?
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« Reply #367 on: February 25, 2013, 08:10:18 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

They are not more about abortion. They make far more money selling birth control. They do that a lot more than they do abortions. Also, I have never heard of Planned Parenthood clinics in high schools. Do you believe everything you read off Free Republic or Operation Rescue or wherever you get this nonsense?
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« Reply #368 on: February 25, 2013, 08:17:46 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

They are not more about abortion. They make far more money selling birth control. They do that a lot more than they do abortions. Also, I have never heard of Planned Parenthood clinics in high schools. Do you believe everything you read off Free Republic or Operation Rescue or wherever you get this nonsense?

Odd when an EO Christian defends Planned Parenthood.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/06/05/planned-parenthood-sets-up-shop-at-roosevelt-high-to-reduce-teen-pregnancies/

There ya go, cbs news, not free republic.

They are America's largest abortion provider.
They get 45% of their funding from our taxpayer dollars.

Their own given stats on abortion are very biased where they say 10% of clients have abortions (murders telling the truth?).  The revenue from abortions is much higher and the government funding goes towards contraceptives.
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« Reply #369 on: February 25, 2013, 09:12:47 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

Just wondering, within God's creation are a seemingly infinite multitude of his creatures including ones harmful to humans like certain bacteria. Many people have died as a consequence of nature's normal cycles by means of bacterial infection. With the development of antibiotics in the 20th century many diseases formerly deadly to mankind were no longer a threat to humans. Do you take antibiotics when ill?  How do you reconcile modern medicine with God's will?
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« Reply #370 on: February 25, 2013, 09:25:39 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

Just wondering, within God's creation are a seemingly infinite multitude of his creatures including ones harmful to humans like certain bacteria. Many people have died as a consequence of nature's normal cycles by means of bacterial infection. With the development of antibiotics in the 20th century many diseases formerly deadly to mankind were no longer a threat to humans. Do you take antibiotics when ill?  How do you reconcile modern medicine with God's will?

My friend--If I may...

Modern medicine has made it possible for capital punishment to be administered by lethal injection, arguably a more humane way to end a life. Just as modern medicine has made abortion much safer and thus a more humane way (for the mother that is) to end a life. I do not think that we have to reconcile either with God's will. Both are Caesar's doing, not God's. Now, the use of antibiotics is an interesting case; we have growing evidence that bacteria have fought back and may be winning the battle, as indicated by a recent story about completely drug-resistant and thus incurable TB in some developing country. I am willing to give credit to natural law on this development. However, I cannot see how killing bacteria is the same as, or similar to, killing a human baby.
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« Reply #371 on: February 25, 2013, 09:57:08 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

Just wondering, within God's creation are a seemingly infinite multitude of his creatures including ones harmful to humans like certain bacteria. Many people have died as a consequence of nature's normal cycles by means of bacterial infection. With the development of antibiotics in the 20th century many diseases formerly deadly to mankind were no longer a threat to humans. Do you take antibiotics when ill?  How do you reconcile modern medicine with God's will?

Hi, glad you asked.  Before I answer I must warn, that my answer will not coincide with modern Science, modern medicine, or common thought.    Also, for the CRITICS of almost everything I say, I can't cover every ailment, sickness, or example...

I do not believe in modern medicine.  I believe surgery, but the the pharmacy side of it.   God forbade pharmacia (witchcraft) in the scriptures.  I believe our modern pharmacy is the "user of potions".

With that said I believe that most often diseases are caused by people being lazy, nasty, and unhealthy.  Bathing in dung infested waters for example.  I believe things like high blood pressure are related to obesity, eating salt that is "not real", being lazy, eating a poor unnatural diet...

I  believe bacterial diseases and viral diseases are very curable, if we embrace (untouched) what God has provided.  (look these up because there is no way I can give all of them here)

1) Propolis - what bees use to "glue their hives together"... This is extremely anti-bacterial and anti-viral.  It contains tons of amino acids.   You can even brush your teeth with it (an excellent toothpaste).  Look it up, it's awesome.   Given to us by God in a pure form.

2) Goji Berries - these contain almost all of the amino acids and all the essential amino acids.  Tons of vitamins.  Contains the highest level of carotenoids on the planet (perfect for eyes and reverses age related macular degeration).   Has an abundance of B vitamins, perfect for those with type 2 diabetes & hypoglycemics.  Also contains the most antioxidants of anything on Earth (by far).  Look it up!  Given to us by God in a pure form.

3) Willow Bark - will cure head aches. Given to us by God in a pure form.

4) Bee Pollen - Will cure many air born allergies.  Given to us by God in a pure form.

5) Echinachea - Is a catalyst for the immune system.  Take as you feel yourself getting sick.  Given to us by God in a pure form.

6) Spirulina - This stuff is insanely good for you, packed with vitamins.  Want a healthy temple?  this stuff is awesome.  Given to us by God in a pure form.

7) Royal Jelly - Full of anti oxidants, amino acids, and vitamins.  This is what worker bees feed to the queen.  Pure, and given to us by God.

Okay, fingers are tired of examples.  There are tons of these, but I covered some of the best.  I believe that it was not Science that offered us solutions to ailments.  I believe that God created things in nature that will help us.

Even for his animals.  For my goats, if they get worms, we feed them Cedar or Honeysuckle.   Cures it.   For humans with worms - heavy use of Garlic.

I believe vaccines are toxic and that the "supposed things" they cure, were being eradicated by more sterile conditions of living.  My opinion is that when Polio was being "vaccinated", people were also leaving life where they were drinking unsanitary water.  Many infected drank from wells too close to out houses.  Suburbs were springing up (pun intended) that were connected to more sanitary sources of water at that time.  Vaccines took all the credit.   Today, rather than the 4 vaccines that were "given" when I was a child, there is 62.  

Again these are my opinions.  I refuse to believe that in God's wondrous creation for us that there are not cures.   I know in his creation is the perfect things to give us perfect health.  Youtube has a video called "the raw food trucker", a man who cured his colon cancer (1 month to live) by consuming an all raw / mostly vegan diet.   lost a ton of weight too.
 
I know there are critics.  None of my 5 children are vaccinated.   We have no problems yet.  In fact, we have been to the doctor (heh knocking on wood) less than 5 times with any of them COMBINED.   This is because most ailments were treated with God's creation.

The times we went were for more of "surgical" reasons.  My son got his finger smashed in a portable cement mixer.  Thank God he didn't need surgery.  My daughter swallowed a bunch of little magnets faster than we could get to her - we freaked.  Food poisoning, but they couldn't do anything.  Once my son got his elbow popped out on monkey bars.  

All sicknesses, bacterial infections, colds, flu, etc., all treated with what God made for us.

Anyway, its almost a philosophy.  A philosophy of health, respecting the creation, and using what God gave us to help us.  I'm nearly 40 years old, I rarely get sick, and I can still hold my own against 5 children wrestling on a trampoline (kind of LOL).  My wife rarely gets sick - as well as our children.

I believe that when we embrace what God has made for us, we are much more healthy.

Anyway, this is what works for us for many years now.  This info is often met with scorn and ridicule.  This is not conclusive, but only a trickle in an ocean of what is out there.

I believe that modern contraceptives are pharmacia (witchcraft) and its people's attempts at altering the will of God.




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« Reply #372 on: February 25, 2013, 09:58:41 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

  Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.

Actually abortion is a very small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does. Most of what they do is sex education, distributing contraception and preventative medicine for women
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« Reply #373 on: February 25, 2013, 10:03:57 PM »

Just wondering, within God's creation are a seemingly infinite multitude of his creatures including ones harmful to humans like certain bacteria. Many people have died as a consequence of nature's normal cycles by means of bacterial infection. With the development of antibiotics in the 20th century many diseases formerly deadly to mankind were no longer a threat to humans. Do you take antibiotics when ill?  How do you reconcile modern medicine with God's will?

Have you read this by any chance?

God is not a terrorist who uses biological weapons to carry out his wicked plans. Otherwise Mr. Twain's portrayal in "Letters from the Earth" would be, well, spot-on.

"Theodicy is ineffective most of the times because one tries to justify God at a level at which he is seen like a man and stripped of all the majesty of his divinity." (Met. Anthony Bloom)
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« Reply #374 on: February 25, 2013, 10:13:48 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

  Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.

Actually abortion is a very small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does. Most of what they do is sex education, distributing contraception and preventative medicine for women

Here we go again...Figures, please. Define "small percentage".
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« Reply #375 on: February 25, 2013, 10:36:18 PM »

Anatomically speaking, the average fetus is closer to a rat than a human being around the time it is aborted. That doesn't sound like murder to me.

Anatomically speaking?

(1) What exactly do you think your professing? I am questioning your understanding of the subject.
(2) How does form exhibit nature?
     (2b) Can you think of any other cases, to not include a developing baby, where a person does not have the form of a functional human being, but is still human?
(1)The anatomy of a human fetus is more similar to a rat than a human. That's what I'm professing. Murder is defined as one Human killing another human, with spiteful intent. Abortion is more of one(emotionally confused) human removing an unwanted clump of cells from its abdomen.

 Here's a good definition for a human:
"Humans are characterized by having a large brain relative to body size, with a particularly well developed neocortex, prefrontal cortex and temporal lobes, making them capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, problem solving and culture through social learning."

 Does a developing fetus fit this criteria?

(2) The point was that it's not human. I wasn't really saying "because it doesn't look like a human, it isn't". I was throwing out an example of why I don't really think it's "murder" to have an abortion. Do I personally think it's wrong to have one, and will I urge friends and family to avoid them? Of course. Christianity values life on a higher sense than Secularism. But I also think that lying is wrong, and I urge my friends and family to avoid it as well.
(2b) I think I need a better definition of what you're asking before I can answer this. My answer right now would be no, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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« Reply #376 on: February 25, 2013, 10:39:39 PM »

 Also, in regards to the price of contraceptives, it depends on the state. In Idaho, they're not free, and you have to be 18(I think) to purchase them. And that's only condoms, an albeit ineffective contraceptive. The contraception advocating I speak of is birth control pills.
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« Reply #377 on: February 25, 2013, 10:45:03 PM »

I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.

And doubly tragic so when the parents are married. It DOES happen.
More than people will admit.


We really need to pray for all people in these situations. ANyone feeling pressured to abort, anyone losing a child unwilling to an abortion, and aborted child...everyone. It is really so sad how delusional our culture is claiming it is a women's rights situation whn it is a human being. It just breaks my heart. I was 19 when I got pregnant, granted I was not living in accordance with Christ and was committing sins myself, and my son's father told me to abort the baby because I would never be a good mother on my own and my child would have a terrible life. Well, he is turning one on St. Patricks day, and he is the "happiest baby I've ever seen" (so he gets a lot) any way I guess that was just my story on how it is possible and how we really need to support people in finding the way. God bless.
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« Reply #378 on: February 25, 2013, 10:52:40 PM »

Anatomically speaking, the average fetus is closer to a rat than a human being around the time it is aborted. That doesn't sound like murder to me.

Anatomically speaking?

(1) What exactly do you think your professing? I am questioning your understanding of the subject.
(2) How does form exhibit nature?
     (2b) Can you think of any other cases, to not include a developing baby, where a person does not have the form of a functional human being, but is still human?
(1)The anatomy of a human fetus is more similar to a rat than a human. That's what I'm professing. Murder is defined as one Human killing another human, with spiteful intent. Abortion is more of one(emotionally confused) human removing an unwanted clump of cells from its abdomen.

 Here's a good definition for a human:
"Humans are characterized by having a large brain relative to body size, with a particularly well developed neocortex, prefrontal cortex and temporal lobes, making them capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, problem solving and culture through social learning."

 Does a developing fetus fit this criteria?

By anatomy, is the predication of this definition based solely on appearance or actual substance? The biological tissue of a fetus is not closer to a rat. The genetic information is not closer to a rat. Does appearance set the standard for reality? Would you want to be held to using a measurement based on appearance for other situations/objects/creatures? Would you want to be held to that measurement?

Does anything than an average adult fit this criteria? What about mentally disabled, malformed adults, patients post-cerebral operation, or other alternative conditions to set one outside this adult characterisitic. What about a 6 month old? They don't have a well-developed brain and aren't capable of abstract reasoning, language, etc.

To the clump of cells: If I shoot someone in the face, am I not only removing an unwanted clump of cells from my presence?


(2) The point was that it's not human. I wasn't really saying "because it doesn't look like a human, it isn't". I was throwing out an example of why I don't really think it's "murder" to have an abortion. Do I personally think it's wrong to have one, and will I urge friends and family to avoid them? Of course. Christianity values life on a higher sense than Secularism. But I also think that lying is wrong, and I urge my friends and family to avoid it as well.
(2b) I think I need a better definition of what you're asking before I can answer this. My answer right now would be no, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Respects,
 Andrew

(2) My counter is that your definition of "human" is lacking, and is narrow enough to exclude many individuals despite their stage of development.
(2b) An example could be be a reduction of form to escape your definition. Stephen Hawking could meet your definition. What if we took his brain and put it in a jar, still alive. Is he still human, or does he forfeit that right?
What about the mentally disabled? Are they human? Some aren't capable of the definition you propose, even at 30 years old.
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« Reply #379 on: February 25, 2013, 10:57:53 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

Just wondering, within God's creation are a seemingly infinite multitude of his creatures including ones harmful to humans like certain bacteria. Many people have died as a consequence of nature's normal cycles by means of bacterial infection. With the development of antibiotics in the 20th century many diseases formerly deadly to mankind were no longer a threat to humans. Do you take antibiotics when ill?  How do you reconcile modern medicine with God's will?

My friend--If I may...

Modern medicine has made it possible for capital punishment to be administered by lethal injection, arguably a more humane way to end a life. Just as modern medicine has made abortion much safer and thus a more humane way (for the mother that is) to end a life. I do not think that we have to reconcile either with God's will. Both are Caesar's doing, not God's. Now, the use of antibiotics is an interesting case; we have growing evidence that bacteria have fought back and may be winning the battle, as indicated by a recent story about completely drug-resistant and thus incurable TB in some developing country. I am willing to give credit to natural law on this development. However, I cannot see how killing bacteria is the same as, or similar to, killing a human baby.

Not my point..I should have made that clear... of course I don't believe that.

I was speaking to the issue of contraception and the implied argument which flows from the natural law rejection of contraception that engaging in marital relations for purposes other than procreation goes against God's will. Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) addressed that argument quite well ,in this brief essay: "Orthodox Marriage & Its Misunderstanding"  It is worth the time to read.

http://theinnerkingdom.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/orthodox-marriage-its-misunderstanding-by-bishop-hilarion-alfeyev/
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« Reply #380 on: February 25, 2013, 11:21:38 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

  Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.

Actually abortion is a very small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does. Most of what they do is sex education, distributing contraception and preventative medicine for women

Here we go again...Figures, please. Define "small percentage".

3%

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-glance-5552.htm


One in five women in the U.S. has visited a Planned Parenthood health center at least once in her life.
Our Work

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 71 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 684,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides 585,000 Pap tests and nearly 640,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly 4.5 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.

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« Reply #381 on: February 25, 2013, 11:24:19 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

  Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.

Actually abortion is a very small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does. Most of what they do is sex education, distributing contraception and preventative medicine for women

Here we go again...Figures, please. Define "small percentage".

3%

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-glance-5552.htm


One in five women in the U.S. has visited a Planned Parenthood health center at least once in her life.
Our Work

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 71 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 684,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides 585,000 Pap tests and nearly 640,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly 4.5 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.



Those figures are VERY misleading.

Search around for more information on the figures.  (This is coming from somebody who has actively protested Planned Parenthood).

These are figures given to you by a murderous organization.
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« Reply #382 on: February 25, 2013, 11:54:39 PM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

  Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.

Actually abortion is a very small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does. Most of what they do is sex education, distributing contraception and preventative medicine for women

Here we go again...Figures, please. Define "small percentage".

3%

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-glance-5552.htm


One in five women in the U.S. has visited a Planned Parenthood health center at least once in her life.
Our Work

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 71 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 684,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides 585,000 Pap tests and nearly 640,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly 4.5 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.



Those figures are VERY misleading.

Search around for more information on the figures.  (This is coming from somebody who has actively protested Planned Parenthood).

These are figures given to you by a murderous organization.

Where are your figures and have you already posted them here?   Huh
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« Reply #383 on: February 26, 2013, 12:07:37 AM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked. To be fair though, I don't know if states in the Bible-Belt are like this though...

Planned Parenthood distributes contraceptives in just about every medium sized town.... Plus they have locations in high schools.   Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.  They are even embedded in the Girl Scouts!

I am against abortion.  I am against contraceptives.  I already have 5 children, and if God wills it, we'll have more.  Yes, even if we end up like the Duggars.  His will be done.

  Of course, they are more about abortion than contraceptive.

Actually abortion is a very small percentage of what Planned Parenthood does. Most of what they do is sex education, distributing contraception and preventative medicine for women

Here we go again...Figures, please. Define "small percentage".

3%

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-glance-5552.htm


One in five women in the U.S. has visited a Planned Parenthood health center at least once in her life.
Our Work

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 71 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 684,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides 585,000 Pap tests and nearly 640,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly 4.5 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.



Those figures are VERY misleading.

Search around for more information on the figures.  (This is coming from somebody who has actively protested Planned Parenthood).

These are figures given to you by a murderous organization.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts..
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« Reply #384 on: February 26, 2013, 12:45:08 AM »

I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.

And doubly tragic so when the parents are married. It DOES happen.
More than people will admit.


We really need to pray for all people in these situations. ANyone feeling pressured to abort, anyone losing a child unwilling to an abortion, and aborted child...everyone. It is really so sad how delusional our culture is claiming it is a women's rights situation whn it is a human being. It just breaks my heart. I was 19 when I got pregnant, granted I was not living in accordance with Christ and was committing sins myself, and my son's father told me to abort the baby because I would never be a good mother on my own and my child would have a terrible life. Well, he is turning one on St. Patricks day, and he is the "happiest baby I've ever seen" (so he gets a lot) any way I guess that was just my story on how it is possible and how we really need to support people in finding the way. God bless.


Amen



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« Reply #385 on: February 26, 2013, 05:25:36 AM »

...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.
I wonder how much worse it would be without fighting against it.  No, I don’t want to wonder.  The thought is terrifying.  Not that this has anything to do with abortion.  Then again, I suppose it has become second nature to justify one wrong by pointing at another.  Very sad indeed.  Sad

Probably better actually.

Hardly.  Making drugs legal (not fighting against recreational drug use) means more people will use them, causing more problems for everyone.  Keep your eyes on the states that have made MJ legal.  You will see.
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« Reply #386 on: February 26, 2013, 05:27:43 AM »

It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap. The way I see it is that if it takes two people to make a baby, then it takes two people to decide what to do with it.

When men find a way to carry and birth the babies they want and their women don't, then they will have an equal say. Until then, all the decisions are firmly on the woman's side.

This is one of the most useless and baseless arguments I have ever heard in my life, ever.
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« Reply #387 on: February 26, 2013, 05:31:51 AM »

I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.


I once watched a young man sobbing uncontrollably after he had been forcibly removed from an abortion clinic for simply trying to talk his girlfriend out of killing his unborn child. He was rolling on the ground weeping in tremendous grief. He couldn't understand why he wasn't even allowed to try to talk to his own girlfriend who was carrying his own child. It was heartbreaking to see. He felt so helpless. No freedom of choice for him. All he could do was sit by and weep as the girl he loved murdered the baby they had conceived together. I sat down and wept with him. That's all I could do. This is another aspect of abortion that is lost in all the naive theory about "choice" and such.



Selam

Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone.

Reality check: Women do in fact have a choice. Therefore, you may want to work on you communication skills
 
The absolute witlessness of some statements astonishes me.  I have heard this sort of ignorance on several occasions and every time I hear it there is less and less strength in the words, not that there was much in the beginning.  “Women aren’t property” propaganda punch lines.  Nothing more.  Very sad.
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« Reply #388 on: February 26, 2013, 05:35:40 AM »

I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.


I once watched a young man sobbing uncontrollably after he had been forcibly removed from an abortion clinic for simply trying to talk his girlfriend out of killing his unborn child. He was rolling on the ground weeping in tremendous grief. He couldn't understand why he wasn't even allowed to try to talk to his own girlfriend who was carrying his own child. It was heartbreaking to see. He felt so helpless. No freedom of choice for him. All he could do was sit by and weep as the girl he loved murdered the baby they had conceived together. I sat down and wept with him. That's all I could do. This is another aspect of abortion that is lost in all the naive theory about "choice" and such.



Selam

Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone.

Reality check: Women do in fact have a choice. Therefore, you may want to work on you communication skills

Mosagony?

Yeah Miss spell ..Word check didnt correct it.. Here you go:

World English Dictionary
misogyny  (mɪˈsɒdʒɪnɪ, maɪ-) 
 
— n   
 hatred of women 
 
[C17: from Greek, from miso-  + gunē  woman] 
 
mi'sogynist 
 
— n , — adj   
 
misogy'nistic 
 
— adj   
 
mi'sogynous 
 
— adj   



I see.  Pro-life, hate women.  Got it.  Nonsense and foolishness, but I understand.
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« Reply #389 on: February 26, 2013, 05:38:15 AM »

Quote
Yes, the freedom of choice is only for the Women when it concerns her body
So let me make sure I have this right. Before the child is born, the man has no rights to the child. Is that what you are saying?

The "boyfriend" showed up at the abortion clinic.. How would you picture accommodating him exactly?

"Your boyfriend is here"

"Who?"

"He says his name is Tommy"

"Tell him to go away"

"He says he is the father"

"Can he prove it because I slept with several guys?"

"He cant prove it"

"Then send him on his way and thank him for the flowers"

You created a strawman with the story of the whore at the abortion clinic. However, even here it is not 'impossible' to prove fatherhood whilst a child is still in the womb.

Whew..It's pretty normal for an unmarried woman to have sex these day. She may have more than one partner. In normal society, that does not make her a "Whore"..



Indeed.  If it did, then she would get paid.  There is another word I would use, but not in good company.
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« Reply #390 on: February 26, 2013, 05:39:00 AM »

Yes, the freedom of choice is only for the Women when it concerns her body . For example, we reel in horror when the opposite is done in China and Women are forced to have an abortion..

You cant find a solution to Abortion by forcing people.. Out of fairness he should have some say so but that cant be elevated to a "Right"..Welcome to America.

Women have a unique condition from men, however, that is intended to be ignored to protect this argument. That is, women have the unique ability to establish new life within themselves and nurture it until it can exist outside the womb.

Men can't do this. Some women refuse to recognize this gift, and/or attempt to repress this gift in order to sustain their selfish desires. (Selfish desires... sounds like 'passions'....)

When a woman contains a new life within them, their health no longer centers solely on themselves. They may not like it, if it conflicts with their desires, but that is the price of motherhood.

To attempt to usurp this responsibility and ignore the health of the new life, is to reject reality in support of an immoral position. Therefore, it NOT and can NEVER BE only about 'woman's health'. The reality is a responsibility that cannot be ignored.

Nice theory.. But in reality you would have to force people to live by it..
It's better to persude people then to impose your will upon them IMHO

You mean, like the father who wants the child, but is forced to sit on his hands while his child is being killed?
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« Reply #391 on: February 26, 2013, 05:39:35 AM »

The "Boyfriend's" main responsibility was to not have unprotected sex and knock her up.

Newsflash: Birth control can fail. Now that's a cautionary tale.

Occasionally..Then he got a raw deal..Never the less there in no legal or practical remedy for this.

He got her pregnant. He did the deed. He lost control of the situation and there is not reasonable way to return it to him...

Keeping it zipped up works too.

No responsibility for the women?  What happened to equality?
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« Reply #392 on: February 26, 2013, 05:41:10 AM »

Hardly.  Making drugs legal (not fighting against recreational drug use) means more people will use them, causing more problems for everyone.

Tell that to the families of the people being imprisoned; how many of those drug dealers and drug users have families just like everyone else who are dependent upon them? Minorities using drugs doesn't affect you in any way. But the government has to interfere in our lives and further screw us over by throwing our breadwinners and loved ones in prison for smoking blunts.
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« Reply #393 on: February 26, 2013, 05:41:26 AM »

Umm, he kinda should have that right. It is both of their child. While he may not have to endure child labour and pregnancy, he still would have to pay child-support depending on whether or not the woman decides to abort. I think that fact alone sort of refutes the notion that the decision should solely rely on the woman. I admit, I've never been pregnant or given birth, but I think that paying 18 years of child support is at the very least an equal burden to 9 months of pregnancy and then birth.

And what about 18 years of childrearing? Or do you think that you stick babies in a jar, water them, and they grow all by their lonesome?

Ok, make the father raise the child and the mother provide child support.  
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« Reply #394 on: February 26, 2013, 05:42:55 AM »

I think his point about child support is valid.  I haven't read the entire conversation but I like his point that the child is the responsibility of both parents regardless if they stay together or not.  Not that I want to advocate abortion here in any way, but the father isn't merely a sperm donor.

A father who wants to really be a father doesn't get fixated on how much a child costs him, and certainly doesn't believe that a mother's job is done once she's popped out the baby. I'm sure you know that well. Wink

Double standards or revolting.
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« Reply #395 on: February 26, 2013, 05:43:35 AM »

And what about 18 years of childrearing? Or do you think that you stick babies in a jar, water them, and they grow all by their lonesome?

Many modern parents do precisely that; they each work all day and leave their kids home alone all the time to raise themselves.

And for each parent who does this, there's at least another who does it properly. The work doesn't end with birth. That's only the beginning, and it goes on well beyond 18.


Should the father be required by law to pay child support?  Should the father be required by common morality to help raise the child?

If so, then do you think it stands to reason that he should have an equal say in whether the child is killed or not?

The say can never be equal, because there can be two conflicting views and only one decision to be made. And that decision must be made by the mother, because she is putting in so much more than the father would ever be able to.

It's a hard decision, whichever way you cut it, and an ugly business all around.

Life is hard...so what?
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« Reply #396 on: February 26, 2013, 05:44:29 AM »

I know that I'm kind of popping in on this thread in the middle of a debate, so, sorry about that.


 I've had conflicting thoughts on abortion in the past. At one point, I was 100% pro-life, then I moved on to pro-choice, no I'm pro-choice progressive.

 I don't believe Abortion is right for a Christian, because of our emphasis on the value of human life. But, I don't make the connection between wrong and murder. Anatomically speaking, the average fetus is closer to a rat than a human being around the time it is aborted. That doesn't sound like murder to me.
 Anyways, I'm a pro-choice progressive because, according to some legitimate statistics(I could cite them later, but not now) show that making abortion illegal in places where abortion is already a mainstream form of birth control will not make the abortion rate go down. In some places, in fact, it's risen. So, we vote for legalizing abortion, but advocating contraception as a better alternative, making it free in as many places as we can.
 Of course that raises the problem with people having sex more often, but to choose that as a more terrible alternative than (what pro-lifers call) murder is absolutely ridiculous.

 This is just where I'm at, and have been at on this topic, for a while now. If any of you can offer some other good perspectives on this, I'd love to hear them.

 Anyhow.
Respects,
 Andrew

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 
Abstinence is free.
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« Reply #397 on: February 26, 2013, 05:48:07 AM »

single parent = single mother?

Either will do, although the single mother type is more likely.

How exactly is any of this an argument for killing children? Because it's difficult?

Not everyone is convinced that abortion is 'killing children'.

True.  Only half of the "Pro-Choice" crowd believes this.
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« Reply #398 on: February 26, 2013, 05:49:22 AM »

Seriously, how expansive are contraceptives?  This BS about people who cannot afford contraceptives is getting kinda old. 

Very true; quite frankly, it is a bunch of bullpoop. In California where I live, anyone of any age could walk into any clinic, hospital, pharmacy or medical facility and ask for contraceptives, and be given them entirely free of charge no questions asked.

Then, walk across the street to get high, er, um...get their medicine to smoke.
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« Reply #399 on: February 26, 2013, 05:55:47 AM »

Anatomically speaking, the average fetus is closer to a rat than a human being around the time it is aborted. That doesn't sound like murder to me.

Anatomically speaking?

(1) What exactly do you think your professing? I am questioning your understanding of the subject.
(2) How does form exhibit nature?
     (2b) Can you think of any other cases, to not include a developing baby, where a person does not have the form of a functional human being, but is still human?
(1)The anatomy of a human fetus is more similar to a rat than a human. That's what I'm professing. Murder is defined as one Human killing another human, with spiteful intent. Abortion is more of one(emotionally confused) human removing an unwanted clump of cells from its abdomen.

I went to school with a fellow who had no bones in his thumbs, had a massive hump on his shoulder, could barely walk and had very little facial expression.  Since he didn’t resemble other humans, would it have been ok to shoot and kill him?  I also had a neighbor who had a child born with no arms and legs.  What about her?  Some people look more like wolves than others because of all of their body hair. 

The point is, resemblance in appearance has little to do with what they actually are.  Human...just like a fetus.
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« Reply #400 on: February 26, 2013, 05:56:38 AM »

Also, in regards to the price of contraceptives, it depends on the state. In Idaho, they're not free, and you have to be 18(I think) to purchase them. And that's only condoms, an albeit ineffective contraceptive. The contraception advocating I speak of is birth control pills.

I advocate self control and for Christians to do what they are supposed to do in regards to sexuality.
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« Reply #401 on: February 26, 2013, 05:58:28 AM »

The pro-abortion argument fails when we prosecute people for double homicide when they murder a pregnant mother.  Its either a human life or it is not.  This double standard is tiresome.
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« Reply #402 on: February 26, 2013, 06:01:57 AM »

Hardly.  Making drugs legal (not fighting against recreational drug use) means more people will use them, causing more problems for everyone.

Tell that to the families of the people being imprisoned;

They made a choice to break the law.  It is their responsibility alone.  Choices have consequences. 
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« Reply #403 on: February 26, 2013, 06:35:06 AM »

As with every human rights atrocity under the sun, the defense and rationaliztion of abortion stems either from ignorance or evil. Either one is clueless about the horrific realities of abortion - in which case they are ignorant - or else they know very well how horrible abortion is and they justify it anyway - in which case they are evil. There are no other options here, in spite of some inane nuanced rhetorical attempts to obfuscate the clarity of the issue. And as much information and education that has been forthcoming on this forum about the realities of abortion, then I hardly think people who have been here for a while can plead ignorance. There is a difference between sinful imperfection and iniquitous evil. I doubt if anyone on this forum is without sin, but I don't think most people here are evil. But for those who gaze directly at the truth of abortion and still attempt to justify, excuse, and rationalize its legality - well, I tremble for their souls almost as much as I tremble for my own.

"Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."   - Cicero -



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« Reply #404 on: February 26, 2013, 10:07:39 AM »

Quote
Making drugs legal (not fighting against recreational drug use) means more people will use them, causing more problems for everyone
This was the argument used when debating whether or not to rescind abolition (which turned out to be false). The facts are, people will use drugs, whether they're legal or not, and people will NOT use drugs, whether they're legal or not.

Quote
Not everyone is convinced that abortion is 'killing children'.
Not everyone is still convinced the Earth orbits the Sun. It doesn't make their arguments valid. Ending a life is ending a life, whether its inside another person or not is immaterial.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:08:26 AM by primuspilus » Logged

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