Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 31000 times)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #270 on: February 23, 2013, 12:44:08 PM »
You missed the point.. I'll go slower

I can't miss what you don't make.

If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

Indeed it is, as I am fully aware.

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

Excellent. And abortion is legal now, correct?

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised, as you yourself pointed out in the previously quoted section. No need for round-ups.

Make illegal again --- Round ups begin

No, they don't.

Abortion was illegal in the past. Presumably at the time it was prosecuted. Then it became legal. Now, suppose hypothetically that becomes illegal again. It would work like this:

I L L E G A L ----------------------------> L E G A L ----------------------------------------> I L L E G A L
prosecuted if it happens in this time     never prosecuted if it happens in this time        prosecuted if it happens in this time

That clear enough for you?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised,

Let try again.. Women will be prosecuted if they get an abortion ( and I presume that includes taking something like a Morning After Pill).

That will be committing murder.. Yes/No

The penalty for Pre meditated Murder is life in Prison or a very very long sentence or even execution.

Do you anticipate round ups of Women, after it is re criminalized? Will there be large holding camps? Do you foresee executions of Women?

I can see how my mention of the statute of limitations confused the issue. However, since there is no limitation on murder prosecution, do you foresee prosecutions of Women who had abortions back when it was not legal since they had committed a murder?

 thanks



« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 12:46:21 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #271 on: February 23, 2013, 12:46:06 PM »
You missed the point.. I'll go slower

I can't miss what you don't make.

If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

Indeed it is, as I am fully aware.

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

Excellent. And abortion is legal now, correct?

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised, as you yourself pointed out in the previously quoted section. No need for round-ups.

Make illegal again --- Round ups begin

No, they don't.

Abortion was illegal in the past. Presumably at the time it was prosecuted. Then it became legal. Now, suppose hypothetically that becomes illegal again. It would work like this:

I L L E G A L ----------------------------> L E G A L ----------------------------------------> I L L E G A L
prosecuted if it happens in this time     never prosecuted if it happens in this time        prosecuted if it happens in this time

That clear enough for you?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised,

Let try again.. Women will be prosecuted if they get an abortion ( and I presume that includes taking something like a Morning After Pill).

That will be committing murder.. Yes/No

The penalty for Pre meditated Murder is life in Prison or a very very long sentence or even execution.

Do you anticipate round ups of Women, after it is re criminalized? Will there be large holding camps? Do you foresee executions of Women?

I can see how my mention of the statute of limitations confused the issue. However, since there is no limitation on murder prosecution, do you foresee prosecutions of Women who had abortions back when it was not legal since they had committed a murder?

 thanks




I want to know if you are smoking something. You are the one arguing that killing some people isn't murder.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #272 on: February 23, 2013, 12:58:49 PM »
You missed the point.. I'll go slower

I can't miss what you don't make.

If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

Indeed it is, as I am fully aware.

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

Excellent. And abortion is legal now, correct?

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised, as you yourself pointed out in the previously quoted section. No need for round-ups.

Make illegal again --- Round ups begin

No, they don't.

Abortion was illegal in the past. Presumably at the time it was prosecuted. Then it became legal. Now, suppose hypothetically that becomes illegal again. It would work like this:

I L L E G A L ----------------------------> L E G A L ----------------------------------------> I L L E G A L
prosecuted if it happens in this time     never prosecuted if it happens in this time        prosecuted if it happens in this time

That clear enough for you?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised,

Let try again.. Women will be prosecuted if they get an abortion ( and I presume that includes taking something like a Morning After Pill).

That will be committing murder.. Yes/No

The penalty for Pre meditated Murder is life in Prison or a very very long sentence or even execution.

Do you anticipate round ups of Women, after it is re criminalized? Will there be large holding camps? Do you foresee executions of Women?

I can see how my mention of the statute of limitations confused the issue. However, since there is no limitation on murder prosecution, do you foresee prosecutions of Women who had abortions back when it was not legal since they had committed a murder?

 thanks




I want to know if you are smoking something. You are the one arguing that killing some people isn't murder.

Using the term Murder to denounce Abortion is a very poor choice of words. I fully understand how you can logically work your way to being comfortable using it. I get it.  However, it fails some key logical tests such as when you ask if the penalty for Abortion will be the same as the penalty for Murder.

Therefore, Pro Life people need to be less self righteous and find ways to  actually persuade people not to have abortions rather than come off like the Gestapo.

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #273 on: February 23, 2013, 01:57:06 PM »
You missed the point.. I'll go slower

I can't miss what you don't make.

If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

Indeed it is, as I am fully aware.

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

Excellent. And abortion is legal now, correct?

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised, as you yourself pointed out in the previously quoted section. No need for round-ups.

Make illegal again --- Round ups begin

No, they don't.

Abortion was illegal in the past. Presumably at the time it was prosecuted. Then it became legal. Now, suppose hypothetically that becomes illegal again. It would work like this:

I L L E G A L ----------------------------> L E G A L ----------------------------------------> I L L E G A L
prosecuted if it happens in this time     never prosecuted if it happens in this time        prosecuted if it happens in this time

That clear enough for you?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised,

Let try again.. Women will be prosecuted if they get an abortion ( and I presume that includes taking something like a Morning After Pill).

That will be committing murder.. Yes/No

The penalty for Pre meditated Murder is life in Prison or a very very long sentence or even execution.

Do you anticipate round ups of Women, after it is re criminalized? Will there be large holding camps? Do you foresee executions of Women?

I can see how my mention of the statute of limitations confused the issue. However, since there is no limitation on murder prosecution, do you foresee prosecutions of Women who had abortions back when it was not legal since they had committed a murder?

 thanks





OK. So is what you are asking 'Will women who have abortions, and whose abortions take place subsequent to the recriminalisation that Orthonoob proposes, be rounded up and imprisoned/executed?'

If so, the answer is yes, though the phrase 'rounded up' implies some kind of mass action, which I don't think will be necessary. I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act. Such women can then be arrested, prosecuted, and punished, just as women who kill their already-born children now are.
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #274 on: February 23, 2013, 01:58:29 PM »
Using the term Murder to denounce Abortion is a very poor choice of words. I fully understand how you can logically work your way to being comfortable using it. I get it.  However, it fails some key logical tests such as when you ask if the penalty for Abortion will be the same as the penalty for Murder.

No, it doesn't, because if I were in charge it would be, and moreover, canonically, it is.
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Offline Xenia

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #275 on: February 23, 2013, 02:47:32 PM »
If I knew that five-year olds were being systematically murdered in the house across the street,  I would do everything in my power, including giving up my own life, to rescue these children and put an end to the slaughter. I think most people would do the same.  There is a Planned Parenthood in town, and I can barely bring myself to stand out front with a sign. This says to me that I value five-year olds more than I value five-week old unborn children.  This is manifest by my relative lack of action on their behalf. So I conclude that in my heart of hearts I don't really see it as murder.   I think  I am guilty of having a hard heart in this area and I think I should see it as murder.  :(
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 02:50:29 PM by Xenia »

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #276 on: February 23, 2013, 02:50:49 PM »
If I knew that five-year olds were being systematically murdered in the house across the street,  I would do everything in my power, including giving up my own life, to rescue these children and put an end to the slaughter. I think most people would do the same.  There is a Planned Parenthood in town, and I can barely bring myself to stand out front with a sign. This says to me that I value five-year olds more than I value five-week old unborn children.  This is manifest by my relative lack of action on their behalf. So I conclude that in my heart of hearts I don't really see it as murder.   I think possibly I am guilty of having a hard heart in this area and I think I should see it as murder.  :(

Eh...I don't know. Our empathic reactions don't always correspond to some absolute universalist value scale.

Is your child inherently better than all the other children in the world? Probably not. Do you value him a lot more? Certainly.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #277 on: February 23, 2013, 02:52:25 PM »
If I knew that five-year olds were being systematically murdered in the house across the street,  I would do everything in my power, including giving up my own life, to rescue these children and put an end to the slaughter. I think most people would do the same.  There is a Planned Parenthood in town, and I can barely bring myself to stand out front with a sign. This says to me that I value five-year olds more than I value five-week old unborn children.  This is manifest by my relative lack of action on their behalf. So I conclude that in my heart of hearts I don't really see it as murder.   I think possibly I am guilty of having a hard heart in this area and I think I should see it as murder.  :(

^------Someone who understands sincerely the most weak of arguments of why no one around here (ostensibly) think abortion is murder.

I've made this argument a number of times and yet the folks around here can't seem to understand that ethics is something which is embodied within the totality of being, not some self reflective cognitive assent to a proposition.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #278 on: February 23, 2013, 03:17:30 PM »
If I knew that five-year olds were being systematically murdered in the house across the street,  I would do everything in my power, including giving up my own life, to rescue these children and put an end to the slaughter. I think most people would do the same.  There is a Planned Parenthood in town, and I can barely bring myself to stand out front with a sign. This says to me that I value five-year olds more than I value five-week old unborn children.  This is manifest by my relative lack of action on their behalf. So I conclude that in my heart of hearts I don't really see it as murder.   I think  I am guilty of having a hard heart in this area and I think I should see it as murder.  :(


With respect, I think this argument is specious and self-righteous. Throughout history, people have always attempted to exculpate themselves from responsibility for the present evil by claiming it's not as evil as some theoretical evil they manufacture in an attempt to make the present evil look tame in comparison. If murdering 5 year olds became legal by the same political and judicial process that sancitified abortion, then I doubt if there would be much of a different response to it. But we attempt to assuage our consciences in this way. "Abortion can't really be the same as murder, otherwise people surely would not tolerate it." Well, they were systematically murdering 5 year olds across the street in Nazi Germany, and people didn't raise a fuss (except for an exceptional few like Dietrich Bonhoeffer.) So why do we presume to be so righteous as to think that we would not tolerate it here? It is happening right here, next door, down the street, with our full knowledge and complicity. It's not that abortion isn't as awful as murdering 5 year olds, it's that we as Christians are as awful as the German citizens who went about their daily business as the ashes fell upon their heads. (And the "Godwin's Law" parrots can put those ashes in their pipes and smoke them.)


Selam  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 03:19:24 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #279 on: February 23, 2013, 03:21:17 PM »
I've made this argument a number of times and yet the folks around here can't seem to understand that ethics is something which is embodied within the totality of being, not some self reflective cognitive assent to a proposition.

Isn't ethics "otherwise than being"?

I agree with you that it's not about assenting to propositions - rather about one's responsibility for and relation with "the other".    

Offline Xenia

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #280 on: February 23, 2013, 03:28:50 PM »
Quote
With respect, I think this argument is specious and self-righteous.

It wasn't an argument as much as it was an observation on my own hard-heartedness.  When I wrote my post, I was actually thinking about Hadamar, which I think you were referencing as well.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #281 on: February 23, 2013, 03:34:31 PM »
Quote
With respect, I think this argument is specious and self-righteous.

It wasn't an argument as much as it was an observation on my own hard-heartedness.  When I wrote my post, I was actually thinking about Hadamar, which I think you were referencing as well.



My apologies if I came across like I was condemning you personally. Like you, my comments were actually an indictment of my own apathy and indifference (or more accurately, as you said, my own hard heartedness.) And I am especially guilty, because I know what abortion does. I know what it is. I am very outspoken about it. Most people are completely ignorant about the realities of abortion, and therefore their judgment won't be as great as mine.



Selam
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #282 on: February 23, 2013, 04:18:15 PM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child. That being said, as much as I hate to admit it, I would have to disagree with Orthonorm that ethics are related to these feelings. True ethics to me are independent of our feelings and emotions, because our feelings and emotions are subjective, change and are determined by our culture. If God is unchanging, and morality stems from God, then it seems logical to me that morality also must be objective and unchanging. And that brings me to my next thought; even if we have a harder time feeling sympathy for unborn abortion victims, it doesn't necessarily follow that abortion isn't murder, or at least bad--rather, it says that we've been raised in a flawed culture that has engrained its immorality upon our souls, masking our ability to recognize God's true morality for us. There was a time when people thought that killing a slave, a poor person or a person a different color than them wasn't murder, but just because they thought something doesn't mean that they were right. I imagine that abortion is somewhat similar. This is also why I would disagree with many Evangelicals who are in love with CS Lewis' weak moral arguments; I don't believe that morals are something we are born knowing, but rather, they need to be learned through living the life of the Church and putting wickedness aside. I don't trust our "feelings" or "intuition" at all as having authority to determine right or wrong.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 04:18:52 PM by JamesR »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #283 on: February 23, 2013, 11:04:25 PM »
You missed the point.. I'll go slower

I can't miss what you don't make.

If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

Indeed it is, as I am fully aware.

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

Excellent. And abortion is legal now, correct?

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised, as you yourself pointed out in the previously quoted section. No need for round-ups.

Make illegal again --- Round ups begin

No, they don't.

Abortion was illegal in the past. Presumably at the time it was prosecuted. Then it became legal. Now, suppose hypothetically that becomes illegal again. It would work like this:

I L L E G A L ----------------------------> L E G A L ----------------------------------------> I L L E G A L
prosecuted if it happens in this time     never prosecuted if it happens in this time        prosecuted if it happens in this time

That clear enough for you?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised,

Let try again.. Women will be prosecuted if they get an abortion ( and I presume that includes taking something like a Morning After Pill).

That will be committing murder.. Yes/No

The penalty for Pre meditated Murder is life in Prison or a very very long sentence or even execution.

Do you anticipate round ups of Women, after it is re criminalized? Will there be large holding camps? Do you foresee executions of Women?

I can see how my mention of the statute of limitations confused the issue. However, since there is no limitation on murder prosecution, do you foresee prosecutions of Women who had abortions back when it was not legal since they had committed a murder?

 thanks





OK. So is what you are asking 'Will women who have abortions, and whose abortions take place subsequent to the recriminalisation that Orthonoob proposes, be rounded up and imprisoned/executed?'

If so, the answer is yes, though the phrase 'rounded up' implies some kind of mass action, which I don't think will be necessary. I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act. Such women can then be arrested, prosecuted, and punished, just as women who kill their already-born children now are.

Thank you for your honest answer.. You sir are quite delusional..  :)

More after the weekend
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #284 on: February 23, 2013, 11:07:12 PM »
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus
Most people are completely ignorant about the realities of abortion, and therefore their judgment won't be as great as mine.



Selam

Hold it hold it hold it.

Now we see what he's getting at! Nice one, thought you'd hide it didn't you?  ::)

The second creepiest statement since that thing he said about doctors. Don't make me do a site search for that.   
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #285 on: February 23, 2013, 11:38:08 PM »

Thank you for your honest answer..

I do my best.

You sir are quite delusional..  :)

I've heard that before. It's still not true. I don't think this is going to happen until after Western civilisation collapses and the reactionaries take power. But that's how I'd do it if I were in charge.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #286 on: February 24, 2013, 12:30:30 AM »
...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #287 on: February 24, 2013, 12:50:10 AM »
...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.

I don't see that your equivalence between abortion and drugs is justified.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #288 on: February 24, 2013, 12:54:51 AM »
...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.

I don't see that your equivalence between abortion and drugs is justified.

I can tell; you don't seem to see many things.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #289 on: February 24, 2013, 02:11:24 AM »
...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.

I don't see that your equivalence between abortion and drugs is justified.

I can tell; you don't seem to see many things.

I try not to make a habit of seeing what doesn't exist.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #290 on: February 24, 2013, 03:00:26 AM »
Abortion is at the very least a monstrous sin.  At the worst, murder.  You can debate the murder aspect all you want, even though you will fail to show it is not murder.  It is sin, in the same way homosexual acts is a sin, in the same way drunkenness is a sin and by default the abuse of any drug especially for recreational purposes just to get high, and a long laundry list of other thing which have ALWAYS been sin and ALWAYS will be sin.  This pathetic recent attempt to find justification for our sins is asinine at best and evil in nature at worst.  Why is there even any debate on these issues?  The Church has spoken, clearly, on these issues.  They are not new; the end result will not change.  Sin will always be sin.  Keep your selfishness and personal wants/desires to yourself and stop this disingenuous and foolhardy quest to alter what they Church teachers and to distort what has always been taught as truth.

Abortion = sin
Getting high = sin
Getting drunk = sin
Adultery = sin
Homosexual relations = sin
Fornication = sin
Having more than one spouse = sin
Divorcing outside biblically accepted reasons = sin

And a lot of other things.  It’s sin people.  Deal with it and get over yourselves.  You will never be bigger than God and us pointing these things out is not judgment.  So you also stop playing the victim.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #291 on: February 24, 2013, 04:02:33 AM »
...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.
I wonder how much worse it would be without fighting against it.  No, I don’t want to wonder.  The thought is terrifying.  Not that this has anything to do with abortion.  Then again, I suppose it has become second nature to justify one wrong by pointing at another.  Very sad indeed.  :(
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 04:03:36 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #292 on: February 24, 2013, 04:07:58 AM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #293 on: February 24, 2013, 07:33:57 AM »
Unfortunately, the father is often the one pushing the woman to get an abortion.  After all, people must have their sexual freedom without any consequences (while ignoring the fact that there are always consequences for our actions).

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #294 on: February 24, 2013, 08:48:29 AM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.

And doubly tragic so when the parents are married. It DOES happen.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #295 on: February 24, 2013, 09:22:57 AM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.

And doubly tragic so when the parents are married. It DOES happen.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #296 on: February 24, 2013, 09:30:28 AM »
True ethics to me are independent of our feelings and emotions, because our feelings and emotions are subjective, change and are determined by our culture. If God is unchanging, and morality stems from God, then it seems logical to me that morality also must be objective and unchanging.

(...)I don't trust our "feelings" or "intuition" at all as having authority to determine right or wrong.

"I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33)

"When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively (physei = naturally) what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves." (Romans 2:11)

If there weren't a natural law (a gut "feeling" about what's right and wrong), then people couldn't obey God's Law with all their heart because their conscience might tell them otherwise. The ideal is to internalize it, that is to educate our mind and feelings ("enlarge the heart") to fully agree with and naturally contain it.  

God expected Cain to be responsible for his brother even before any law/moral instruction was given to mankind. He didn't need to be officially appointed as his "brother's keeper".  

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #297 on: February 24, 2013, 04:59:24 PM »
...I strongly suspect the number of abortions will go down to a manageable level once a serious penalty is attached to the act...

LOL! Okay. And the war on drugs has been really successful in keeping drugs out of impoverished communities.
I wonder how much worse it would be without fighting against it.  No, I don’t want to wonder.  The thought is terrifying.  Not that this has anything to do with abortion.  Then again, I suppose it has become second nature to justify one wrong by pointing at another.  Very sad indeed.  :(

Probably better actually. For starters, jails wouldn't be so crowded for throwing guys in jail just for smoking blunts, and violent drug dealers would go out of business because official corporations that are safer would monopolize on the industry and decrease violence. But that's beside the point. Moving on, the point is that criminalizing drugs hasn't done any good for society and hasn't stopped people from doing them, so I don't see how outlawing abortion will stop women from having abortions either. It'll only overcrowd prisons even more and women will just die or get harmed from having coat-hanger or jumping-off-the-stairs abortions. And of course, the wealthy White people will just get safe abortions illegally, whereas the impoverished and less fortunate will be stuck raising like eight kids. I'd treat both abortion and drug usage more as a medical, social issue that needs to be rehabilitated, opposed to criminalizing it right away.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #298 on: February 24, 2013, 05:32:19 PM »

Thank you for your honest answer..

I do my best.

You sir are quite delusional..  :)

I've heard that before. It's still not true. I don't think this is going to happen until after Western civilisation collapses and the reactionaries take power. But that's how I'd do it if I were in charge.

Oh okay.. I"m glad I waited to reply...

My position is this. Before Obama was re elected the chances of Abortion being re criminalized was one in a million. It has been established as legal far too long to undo. Never the less, now that he has been re-elected the chances have dropped to absolute zero, in my personal opinion

Therefore, no one really needs to take their time speculating on how much jail time should be doled out for anyone. The task at hand, in this context, should be how to persuade Women not to have an abortion. I think it is ultimately a religious argument which is why it has not and will not play out well as a secular /legal issue.

My suggestion is not to call people murders of baby killers or threaten them with jail but to rather find ways to convince them.

That's all I have to say.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 05:33:42 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #299 on: February 25, 2013, 12:21:31 AM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.


I once watched a young man sobbing uncontrollably after he had been forcibly removed from an abortion clinic for simply trying to talk his girlfriend out of killing his unborn child. He was rolling on the ground weeping in tremendous grief. He couldn't understand why he wasn't even allowed to try to talk to his own girlfriend who was carrying his own child. It was heartbreaking to see. He felt so helpless. No freedom of choice for him. All he could do was sit by and weep as the girl he loved murdered the baby they had conceived together. I sat down and wept with him. That's all I could do. This is another aspect of abortion that is lost in all the naive theory about "choice" and such.



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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #300 on: February 25, 2013, 01:20:31 AM »
It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap. The way I see it is that if it takes two people to make a baby, then it takes two people to decide what to do with it. If a man is going to have to pay child support depending on whether or not she has the baby, then I would say his decision should mean something. Ideally though, there should be no abortion. I just don't like the criminalizing solution to it--mostly because I don't see it working, just as the war on drugs hasn't worked either.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #301 on: February 25, 2013, 05:57:47 AM »
It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap. The way I see it is that if it takes two people to make a baby, then it takes two people to decide what to do with it.

When men find a way to carry and birth the babies they want and their women don't, then they will have an equal say. Until then, all the decisions are firmly on the woman's side. Way it is.

If a man is going to have to pay child support depending on whether or not she has the baby, then I would say his decision should mean something.

If it all boils down to money issues for you, then you can be sure that paying child support is getting off lightly. There is not enough money in the known world to properly counter the time, effort and health cost that a mother puts into raising a child.

Ideally though, there should be no abortion. I just don't like the criminalizing solution to it--mostly because I don't see it working, just as the war on drugs hasn't worked either.

Agreed. Plus, from a been-there-done-that angle, pregnancy is a huge physical and mental ordeal, culminating in massive, potentially lethal trauma. It should never be forced on anyone against their will, especially not by people who by definition cannot go through the same.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 06:05:59 AM by Arachne »
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #302 on: February 25, 2013, 06:41:06 AM »
It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap.

I have heard that early Feminists were staunchly Pro-Life, partly because abortions and other forms of infanticide were highly targeted at girl babies.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #303 on: February 25, 2013, 06:45:03 AM »
It's a bunch of bull, tbh. All these nazi-feminists pushing their "choice" crap. The way I see it is that if it takes two people to make a baby, then it takes two people to decide what to do with it.

When men find a way to carry and birth the babies they want and their women don't, then they will have an equal say. Until then, all the decisions are firmly on the woman's side. Way it is.

If a man is going to have to pay child support depending on whether or not she has the baby, then I would say his decision should mean something.

If it all boils down to money issues for you, then you can be sure that paying child support is getting off lightly. There is not enough money in the known world to properly counter the time, effort and health cost that a mother puts into raising a child.

Ideally though, there should be no abortion. I just don't like the criminalizing solution to it--mostly because I don't see it working, just as the war on drugs hasn't worked either.

Agreed. Plus, from a been-there-done-that angle, pregnancy is a huge physical and mental ordeal, culminating in massive, potentially lethal trauma. It should never be forced on anyone against their will, especially not by people who by definition cannot go through the same.

For the last generation single fathers have increasingly been the custodial parent; so to assume the emotional drain of child rearing is only carried by the mother is not correct.

While Pregnancy is no doubt a physical, emotional, and medical trial that only women will know, that is no excuse for murdering your baby.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 06:45:40 AM by sprtslvr1973 »
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #304 on: February 25, 2013, 06:58:02 AM »
For the last generation single fathers have increasingly been the custodial parent; so to assume the emotional drain of child rearing is only carried by the mother is not correct.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, for the non-custodial parent, childrearing can be just another bill, while the custodial parent knows very well it's much more, that can never be properly remunerated.

While Pregnancy is no doubt a physical, emotional, and medical trial that only women will know, that is no excuse for murdering your baby.

I'm not looking for excuses. I just don't believe that outlawing abortion will have any effect beyond raising the numbers of dead women and unwanted children.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #305 on: February 25, 2013, 11:49:55 AM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.


I once watched a young man sobbing uncontrollably after he had been forcibly removed from an abortion clinic for simply trying to talk his girlfriend out of killing his unborn child. He was rolling on the ground weeping in tremendous grief. He couldn't understand why he wasn't even allowed to try to talk to his own girlfriend who was carrying his own child. It was heartbreaking to see. He felt so helpless. No freedom of choice for him. All he could do was sit by and weep as the girl he loved murdered the baby they had conceived together. I sat down and wept with him. That's all I could do. This is another aspect of abortion that is lost in all the naive theory about "choice" and such.



Selam

Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone.

Reality check: Women do in fact have a choice. Therefore, you may want to work on you communication skills
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #306 on: February 25, 2013, 12:03:56 PM »
Should women who had abortions be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby after it has been made illegal will be dealt with in the same manner as all premeditated murderers.

Should abortion doctors be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby for someone else will be treated as all assassins.

No need to punish them now.  If they obey the law they are no longer a threat to society.  God will deal with punishing them at his leisure.

Should the politicians who allowed this atrocity be rounded up an shot hung?  Yes.  They set up a system where millions upon millions of babies have been murdered in cold blood.   

Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Then after you make it illegal again will the mass round ups  begin?

 Executions Too ? Because that is the penalty for cold blooded murder you know.

Is this really the Christian image of the future?


Seriously, the picture spam doesn't add to your argument.

To me it is murder, but it is LEGAL under the law.  I don't believe in murdering babies, but I also don't believe in punishing someone by legal means for something they did legally.  I do believe that the politicians who made abortion legal should be hung for crimes against humanity.  They broke a very basic moral code by allowing such a thing to happen.

As for when the round ups of those swine would take place, as soon as God allows it!  Otherwise, He'll just have to deal with them in His own time.  He got Herod pretty good.  I'll bet he can whip up something spectacular for them, if He so wills.
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #307 on: February 25, 2013, 12:06:00 PM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.


I once watched a young man sobbing uncontrollably after he had been forcibly removed from an abortion clinic for simply trying to talk his girlfriend out of killing his unborn child. He was rolling on the ground weeping in tremendous grief. He couldn't understand why he wasn't even allowed to try to talk to his own girlfriend who was carrying his own child. It was heartbreaking to see. He felt so helpless. No freedom of choice for him. All he could do was sit by and weep as the girl he loved murdered the baby they had conceived together. I sat down and wept with him. That's all I could do. This is another aspect of abortion that is lost in all the naive theory about "choice" and such.



Selam

Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone.

Reality check: Women do in fact have a choice. Therefore, you may want to work on you communication skills

Mosagony?
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #308 on: February 25, 2013, 12:55:25 PM »
I'll come out and say it; I think the reason most people--if they honestly admit it--don't feel as horrified at the thought of abortion as they do to say, the murder of five year olds, is because it is hard to have feelings for an unborn child that we've never met, that has no personality, that we can't really relate to, since we've all been around small children, but never an unborn child.

Tell that to the father after he learns the mother killed his child and he could do nothing to stop her.


I once watched a young man sobbing uncontrollably after he had been forcibly removed from an abortion clinic for simply trying to talk his girlfriend out of killing his unborn child. He was rolling on the ground weeping in tremendous grief. He couldn't understand why he wasn't even allowed to try to talk to his own girlfriend who was carrying his own child. It was heartbreaking to see. He felt so helpless. No freedom of choice for him. All he could do was sit by and weep as the girl he loved murdered the baby they had conceived together. I sat down and wept with him. That's all I could do. This is another aspect of abortion that is lost in all the naive theory about "choice" and such.



Selam

Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone.

Reality check: Women do in fact have a choice. Therefore, you may want to work on you communication skills

Mosagony?

I think it's a type of wood.




EDIT -  God in Heaven!  I just read what Gebre wrote in the quoted bit.  God have mercy on that poor man.  At least the poor baby died in innocence and is with Him now in paradise instead of this rotten world.  And may God have mercy on me that I care not for how He deals with that demonic entity in human flesh that subjected them both to such a fate.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 12:59:43 PM by vamrat »
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #309 on: February 25, 2013, 01:04:48 PM »
Quote
Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone
Ah, so the man should not get a say in whether or not the woman can abort a child? Got it. By the way, the "his own" portion of your comment is pretty absurd. He was not saying he owned his girlfriend, he was saying that he wanted to speak to his girlfriend. Its kind of like saying, "My own parents did such a thing...I cant believe it!"

Check your poor understanding of English at the door.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #310 on: February 25, 2013, 01:18:59 PM »
Quote
Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone
Ah, so the man should not get a say in whether or not the woman can abort a child? Got it. By the way, the "his own" portion of your comment is pretty absurd. He was not saying he owned his girlfriend, he was saying that he wanted to speak to his girlfriend. Its kind of like saying, "My own parents did such a thing...I cant believe it!"

Check your poor understanding of English at the door.

You might to rethink how you are understanding the use of own here as well.

You both are wrong, but there is a little truth to what Mark is saying.

The use of own after a possessive pronoun certainly emphasizes the quality or degree of possession. To make a long story short, it emphasizes possession / appropriation (related to property). So yes, you must ask why you use own after any possessive pronoun.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #311 on: February 25, 2013, 01:24:23 PM »
Quote
Here in  21st Century America men dont own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone
Ah, so the man should not get a say in whether or not the woman can abort a child? Got it. By the way, the "his own" portion of your comment is pretty absurd. He was not saying he owned his girlfriend, he was saying that he wanted to speak to his girlfriend. Its kind of like saying, "My own parents did such a thing...I cant believe it!"

Check your poor understanding of English at the door.

You might to rethink how you are understanding the use of own here as well.

You both are wrong, but there is a little truth to what Mark is saying.

The use of own after a possessive pronoun certainly emphasizes the quality or degree of possession. To make a long story short, it emphasizes possession / appropriation (related to property). So yes, you must ask why you use own after any possessive pronoun.


That's absurd. When I talk about "my own parents" that doesn't have any connotations of property. Possession covers a range of meanings, some of which have nothing to do with property but rather other relations like kinship.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #312 on: February 25, 2013, 02:09:37 PM »
Should women who had abortions be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby after it has been made illegal will be dealt with in the same manner as all premeditated murderers.

Should abortion doctors be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby for someone else will be treated as all assassins.

No need to punish them now.  If they obey the law they are no longer a threat to society.  God will deal with punishing them at his leisure.

Should the politicians who allowed this atrocity be rounded up an shot hung?  Yes.  They set up a system where millions upon millions of babies have been murdered in cold blood.   

Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Then after you make it illegal again will the mass round ups  begin?

 Executions Too ? Because that is the penalty for cold blooded murder you know.

Is this really the Christian image of the future?


Seriously, the picture spam doesn't add to your argument.

To me it is murder, but it is LEGAL under the law.  I don't believe in murdering babies, but I also don't believe in punishing someone by legal means for something they did legally.  I do believe that the politicians who made abortion legal should be hung for crimes against humanity.  They broke a very basic moral code by allowing such a thing to happen.

As for when the round ups of those swine would take place, as soon as God allows it!  Otherwise, He'll just have to deal with them in His own time.  He got Herod pretty good.  I'll bet he can whip up something spectacular for them, if He so wills.

As for when the round ups of those swine would take place, as soon as God allows it! <<

And this is why so many people decide that the Pro Life cause is not something they could ever relate to. Good work..

In any event you may want to check around and see that there is no chance that Abortion will ever be re criminalized so you can drop all the speculation about how and when you will jail people.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #313 on: February 25, 2013, 02:16:03 PM »
Should women who had abortions be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby after it has been made illegal will be dealt with in the same manner as all premeditated murderers.

Should abortion doctors be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby for someone else will be treated as all assassins.

No need to punish them now.  If they obey the law they are no longer a threat to society.  God will deal with punishing them at his leisure.

Should the politicians who allowed this atrocity be rounded up an shot hung?  Yes.  They set up a system where millions upon millions of babies have been murdered in cold blood.   

Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Then after you make it illegal again will the mass round ups  begin?

 Executions Too ? Because that is the penalty for cold blooded murder you know.

Is this really the Christian image of the future?


Seriously, the picture spam doesn't add to your argument.

To me it is murder, but it is LEGAL under the law.  I don't believe in murdering babies, but I also don't believe in punishing someone by legal means for something they did legally.  I do believe that the politicians who made abortion legal should be hung for crimes against humanity.  They broke a very basic moral code by allowing such a thing to happen.

As for when the round ups of those swine would take place, as soon as God allows it!  Otherwise, He'll just have to deal with them in His own time.  He got Herod pretty good.  I'll bet he can whip up something spectacular for them, if He so wills.

As for when the round ups of those swine would take place, as soon as God allows it! <<

And this is why so many people decide that the Pro Life cause is not something they could ever relate to. Good work..

In any event you may want to check around and see that there is no chance that Abortion will ever be re criminalized so you can drop all the speculation about how and when you will jail people.

Vamrat did nothing to make that a reality. That is from the cause pushed by the pro-aborts. You can see their propaganda as effectual precisely because you don't relate a fetus and a baby. Because of that, any harm done to a baby prior to birth is not connected to a murder. Since you don't connect the death of a fetus to the death of a human, to prescribe equal punishment under the law would seem unbalanced.

If you fully understand a baby from 'cell formation one' (I'll call this CF1) to be human, then you would recognize any intentional harm done to said baby to align with crushing a 2 month old's head with a rock.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #314 on: February 25, 2013, 02:17:07 PM »
Quote
Here in  21st Century America men dint own Women.. She is not "His own" girlfriend. You may want to check your Mosagony at the door if you wish to ever persuade anyone
Ah, so the man should not get a say in whether or not the woman can abort a child? Got it. By the way, the "his own" portion of your comment is pretty absurd. He was not saying he owned his girlfriend, he was saying that he wanted to speak to his girlfriend. Its kind of like saying, "My own parents did such a thing...I cant believe it!"

Check your poor understanding of English at the door.

You might to rethink how you are understanding the use of own here as well.

You both are wrong, but there is a little truth to what Mark is saying.

The use of own after a possessive pronoun certainly emphasizes the quality or degree of possession. To make a long story short, it emphasizes possession / appropriation (related to property). So yes, you must ask why you use own after any possessive pronoun.


That's absurd. When I talk about "my own parents" that doesn't have any connotations of property. Possession covers a range of meanings, some of which have nothing to do with property but rather other relations like kinship.

The implication was that the boyfriend ( not even husband) had a "right" to access to "His" Girlfriend.

He does not and should not.

There are two  rights at work here: The right of a Woman to have control over her own body and to seek or deny any and all advice as she deems fit and the right of an unborn child to life.

The boyfriend has some say so only in how far the Women allows it. Period. She can not and should not be compelled to give access to anyone. She doesn't have to listen to a boyfriend and she doesnt have to undergo an ultra sound forced on her by the State...etc.

Therefore, it's better to have persuaded her of the sinfullness of abortion long before that point.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm