Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 27506 times)

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Offline Arachne

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #225 on: February 21, 2013, 12:10:22 PM »
that's not very nice... the links are relevant to the topics and i have discussed my opinion somewhat in my above reply

I don't doubt the relevance, but this is a discussion board, and there's precious little discussion happening if we just exchange links. Plus, I'm sure that, if it is a topic you feel strongly about, you haven't run out of words on it after writing your piece. :)
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Offline Eldo55

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #226 on: February 21, 2013, 12:28:21 PM »
you've just ignored my opinion above, like it wasn't there as if it wasn't part of the discussion... im not on hear to try to be clever or argue, im a genuine person.  plus, ive noticed many links on this site that other people have posted, so either way whether i add a link or not doesn't really make the discussion worse
You fast now and then, but I am never refreshed by any food; you often keep vigil, but I never fall asleep. Only in one thing are you better than I am and I acknowledge that.” Macarius said to him, “What is that?” and he replied, “It is because of your humility alone that I cannot overcome you.”

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #227 on: February 21, 2013, 12:35:20 PM »
The only sure road, in my opinion, to lessening and eventually ending the practice of abortion is to convince people not to do it, not to try and force concepts on them that they dont share with us. Ultimately, converting people to our religious beliefs is the surest road and probably the only road to success.


This is the same argument that "moderates" used against the abolitionists. They claimed that they disapproved of slavery, but that the institution would only be dissolved by changing people's hearts over the course of time. A nice idea, but ultimately naive and cowardly.



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« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 12:35:31 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #228 on: February 21, 2013, 12:57:31 PM »
"The only sure road, in my opinion, to lessening and eventually ending the practice of abortion is to convince people not to do it, not to try and force concepts on them that they dont share with us. Ultimately, converting people to our religious beliefs is the surest road and probably the only road to success."

I wasn't forcing anyone to agree with me or us, I merely think that killing a baby (i do not call a child a foetus, they are a person from conception) is wrong and I agree that people must learn not to do it.  Yes, there are many different opinions in the Orthodox Faith too, on this subject, but the right one is that life is sacred, no matter what age or size a person is, no matter if they are not yet visible with the naked eye.  And all people of all faiths and background must understand this, not by force, but by understanding and conversion so that millions of lives are not needlessly cut short, before birth, as we are all from God and The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Thank you for restating your religious beliefs. I share them. Lets try not come off as forcing them upon people but rather find ways of persuading them. Not calling them Murderers is a good start IMHO
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Eldo55

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #229 on: February 21, 2013, 01:09:26 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...
You fast now and then, but I am never refreshed by any food; you often keep vigil, but I never fall asleep. Only in one thing are you better than I am and I acknowledge that.” Macarius said to him, “What is that?” and he replied, “It is because of your humility alone that I cannot overcome you.”

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #230 on: February 21, 2013, 02:15:39 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam


"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #231 on: February 21, 2013, 03:55:11 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty? Because that would be the result today if this is really murder. If abortion is really just like shooting your neighbor in the head then we must dole out a similar penalty. If it is unconscionable to do that then we need to revisit the words we are using . If we dont the self rightous can go about puffing themselves up with their pride and abortions will continue apace.   
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #232 on: February 21, 2013, 03:56:58 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




Only if youre a black and white thinker.. I think this issue is much more complicated then you will admit to.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:57:16 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #233 on: February 21, 2013, 04:17:59 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.
Where did the apostles call it murder?  I don't recall abortion ever coming up in anything they wrote.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #234 on: February 21, 2013, 04:40:55 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




Only if youre a black and white thinker.. I think this issue is much more complicated then you will admit to.


Some things are black and white my friend. When it comes to abortion, I will allow the teachings of the apostles to shape my views.



Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #235 on: February 21, 2013, 04:44:03 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.
Where did the apostles call it murder?  I don't recall abortion ever coming up in anything they wrote.


"You shall not murder a child, whether it be born or unborn." [Didache 2:2]

"Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion, nor again shalt thou kill it when it is born."  [St. Barnabas, Letter of St. Barnabas AD 80]


Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #236 on: February 21, 2013, 04:44:58 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty? Because that would be the result today if this is really murder. If abortion is really just like shooting your neighbor in the head then we must dole out a similar penalty. If it is unconscionable to do that then we need to revisit the words we are using . If we dont the self rightous can go about puffing themselves up with their pride and abortions will continue apace.   
The difference is that many woman who have had abortions don't know that's its murder. Should they receive they penalty for murder if they don't know they are actually killing a human being?
The doctors who perform the abortions on the other hand, they know better.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #237 on: February 21, 2013, 04:45:32 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.
Where did the apostles call it murder?  I don't recall abortion ever coming up in anything they wrote.


"You shall not murder a child, whether it be born or unborn." [Didache 2:2]

"Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion, nor again shalt thou kill it when it is born."  [St. Barnabas, Letter of St. Barnabas AD 80]


Selam
Thank you for sharing this quote and for standing up for the clear truth of the matter.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #238 on: February 21, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty? Because that would be the result today if this is really murder. If abortion is really just like shooting your neighbor in the head then we must dole out a similar penalty. If it is unconscionable to do that then we need to revisit the words we are using . If we dont the self rightous can go about puffing themselves up with their pride and abortions will continue apace.   
The difference is that many woman who have had abortions don't know that's its murder. Should they receive they penalty for murder if they don't know they are actually killing a human being?
The doctors who perform the abortions on the other hand, they know better.

I tend to agree with you, although with all the biological and technological evidence available today I think most women know full well that they are destroying a life. If the apostles implicated them for murder 2,000 years ago when women knew less than they do now, then today they are surely all the more culpable. But I absolutely agree that the abortionists and clinic employees who see and handle the "tissue" are without any excuse. If abortion is ever outlawed, I think those involved in illegal abortions should be tried like any other homicide. Was the woman coerced against her will? Was she a multiple offender? Was she ignorant about what she was doing? Did she refuse the help of those who tried to deter her? Such questions should be addressed in a court of law and those involved should face the appropriate sentence.



Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #239 on: February 21, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty? Because that would be the result today if this is really murder. If abortion is really just like shooting your neighbor in the head then we must dole out a similar penalty. If it is unconscionable to do that then we need to revisit the words we are using . If we dont the self rightous can go about puffing themselves up with their pride and abortions will continue apace.   
The difference is that many woman who have had abortions don't know that's its murder. Should they receive they penalty for murder if they don't know they are actually killing a human being?
The doctors who perform the abortions on the other hand, they know better.

I tend to agree with you, although with all the biological and technological evidence available today I think most women know full well that they are destroying a life. If the apostles implicated them for murder 2,000 years ago when women knew less than they do now, then today they are surely all the more culpable. But I absolutely agree that the abortionists and clinic employees who see and handle the "tissue" are without any excuse. If abortion is ever outlawed, I think those involved in illegal abortions should be tried like any other homicide. Was the woman coerced against her will? Was she a multiple offender? Was she ignorant about what she was doing? Did she refuse the help of those who tried to deter her? Such questions should be addressed in a court of law and those involved should face the appropriate sentence.



Selam
I would add that I oppose the death penalty, so I don't think that we should put any of those guilty of abortion to death. However, I do think that the abortionist "doctors" should be put in prison for life.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #240 on: February 21, 2013, 05:17:08 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty? Because that would be the result today if this is really murder. If abortion is really just like shooting your neighbor in the head then we must dole out a similar penalty. If it is unconscionable to do that then we need to revisit the words we are using . If we dont the self rightous can go about puffing themselves up with their pride and abortions will continue apace.   
The difference is that many woman who have had abortions don't know that's its murder. Should they receive they penalty for murder if they don't know they are actually killing a human being?
The doctors who perform the abortions on the other hand, they know better.

I tend to agree with you, although with all the biological and technological evidence available today I think most women know full well that they are destroying a life. If the apostles implicated them for murder 2,000 years ago when women knew less than they do now, then today they are surely all the more culpable. But I absolutely agree that the abortionists and clinic employees who see and handle the "tissue" are without any excuse. If abortion is ever outlawed, I think those involved in illegal abortions should be tried like any other homicide. Was the woman coerced against her will? Was she a multiple offender? Was she ignorant about what she was doing? Did she refuse the help of those who tried to deter her? Such questions should be addressed in a court of law and those involved should face the appropriate sentence.



Selam
I would add that I oppose the death penalty, so I don't think that we should put any of those guilty of abortion to death. However, I do think that the abortionist "doctors" should be put in prison for life.

Yes, I absolutely oppose the death penalty too.



Selam
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #241 on: February 21, 2013, 05:52:03 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




Only if youre a black and white thinker.. I think this issue is much more complicated then you will admit to.


Some things are black and white my friend. When it comes to abortion, I will allow the teachings of the apostles to shape my views.



Selam

Then do you beleive the Apostles would be for rounding up millions of Women and sending them to Prison for life or executing them?

I think you may have miss understood some things  :)
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline William

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #242 on: February 21, 2013, 05:53:11 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #243 on: February 21, 2013, 05:56:41 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #244 on: February 21, 2013, 05:56:59 PM »
Trying to equate abortion with slavery is a bit disingenuous. My understanding is that the Church never had the same absolute opposition to slavery that it has to abortion.

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #245 on: February 21, 2013, 06:00:09 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I don't think the Apostles ever advocated that. Some of the posters here do seem to be using this debate to indulge their obsession with violence, but the point is surely to minimize the numbers of lives being lost, not getting revenge on those who do commit abortion.

Offline William

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #246 on: February 21, 2013, 06:09:09 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #247 on: February 21, 2013, 06:10:47 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

If abortion was so widespread, do you really think they considered it murder?
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #248 on: February 21, 2013, 06:12:46 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




Only if youre a black and white thinker.. I think this issue is much more complicated then you will admit to.


Some things are black and white my friend. When it comes to abortion, I will allow the teachings of the apostles to shape my views.



Selam

Then do you beleive the Apostles would be for rounding up millions of Women and sending them to Prison for life or executing them?

I think you may have miss understood some things  :)


You should know me well enough by now to know that I have always opposed the death penalty in no uncertain terms. Abortion should be outlawed, and illegal abortions should be investigatged, tried, and prosecuted like any other homicides.


Selam
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Offline William

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #249 on: February 21, 2013, 06:13:01 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

If abortion was so widespread, do you really think they considered it murder?

Who is "they"?
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #250 on: February 21, 2013, 06:14:19 PM »
I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

Infanticide, at least in the Greco-Roman world, was quite widespread. It was also a prerogative of the infant's father, if he decided the newborn was undesirable in any way (from sickly to simply another pesky girl).
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #251 on: February 21, 2013, 06:24:47 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

If abortion was so widespread, do you really think they considered it murder?

Who is "they"?

People in general, in the ancient world. You're the one who said abortion was widespread.

Also, they had pre-pregnancy contraceptives in ancient times. Everything from poultices, to simple devices, to herbal drugs, and so forth. They've even had condoms for at least a few hundred years. All of these things, if used as designed, keep there from being a pregnancy. No conception, no abortion. Simple as that.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #252 on: February 21, 2013, 06:26:38 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

If abortion was so widespread, do you really think they considered it murder?

Who is "they"?

People in general, in the ancient world. You're the one who said abortion was widespread.

Also, they had pre-pregnancy contraceptives in ancient times. Everything from poultices, to simple devices, to herbal drugs, and so forth. They've even had condoms for at least a few hundred years. All of these things, if used as designed, keep there from being a pregnancy. No conception, no abortion. Simple as that.

No, I imagine that most of the Greco-Roman world did not consider abortions to be immoral or murder.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #253 on: February 21, 2013, 07:17:09 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

And your point is?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #254 on: February 21, 2013, 07:20:34 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




Only if youre a black and white thinker.. I think this issue is much more complicated then you will admit to.


Some things are black and white my friend. When it comes to abortion, I will allow the teachings of the apostles to shape my views.



Selam

Then do you beleive the Apostles would be for rounding up millions of Women and sending them to Prison for life or executing them?

I think you may have miss understood some things  :)


You should know me well enough by now to know that I have always opposed the death penalty in no uncertain terms. Abortion should be outlawed, and illegal abortions should be investigatged, tried, and prosecuted like any other homicides.


Selam

Since youre not likely to be in charge we will need to use the term Murder as it is. If you hire someone to kill a person you either go to jail for life or get the death penalty. Therefore, since neither of those options are connected to Abortion, it is something other than murder as understood and penalized in our soicety.

Question 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #255 on: February 21, 2013, 07:23:00 PM »
If you hire someone to kill a person you either go to jail for life or get the death penalty.

Unless you are an attractive female, in which case--judging from what I see on ID Discovery--you can always plead insanity or say you were "depressed" and get a lesser sentence of only like a decade or two, whereas the male parties involved get life without parole.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #256 on: February 21, 2013, 07:25:04 PM »
If you hire someone to kill a person you either go to jail for life or get the death penalty.

Unless you are an attractive female, in which case--judging from what I see on ID Discovery--you can always plead insanity or say you were "depressed" and get a lesser sentence of only like a decade or two, whereas the male parties involved get life without parole.

TV is a poor place from which to take your guesses.

Women tend to get longer sentences.
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #257 on: February 21, 2013, 07:28:22 PM »
If you hire someone to kill a person you either go to jail for life or get the death penalty.

Unless you are an attractive female, in which case--judging from what I see on ID Discovery--you can always plead insanity or say you were "depressed" and get a lesser sentence of only like a decade or two, whereas the male parties involved get life without parole.

TV is a poor place from which to take your guesses.

Women tend to get longer sentences.

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #258 on: February 21, 2013, 07:38:36 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




Only if youre a black and white thinker.. I think this issue is much more complicated then you will admit to.


Some things are black and white my friend. When it comes to abortion, I will allow the teachings of the apostles to shape my views.



Selam

Then do you beleive the Apostles would be for rounding up millions of Women and sending them to Prison for life or executing them?

I think you may have miss understood some things  :)


You should know me well enough by now to know that I have always opposed the death penalty in no uncertain terms. Abortion should be outlawed, and illegal abortions should be investigatged, tried, and prosecuted like any other homicides.


Selam

Since youre not likely to be in charge we will need to use the term Murder as it is. If you hire someone to kill a person you either go to jail for life or get the death penalty. Therefore, since neither of those options are connected to Abortion, it is something other than murder as understood and penalized in our soicety.

Question 


I'll let the apostles define murder, not you, me, or society.



Selam
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Offline William

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #259 on: February 21, 2013, 07:41:21 PM »
maybe the right word is not "murderer", but maybe a better expression is selfish, ignorant killers... after all killing is killing. many people have more love for finding life on other planets than they have for an unborn child alive right here and right now...


If the apostles called it "murder" then I don't think we should revise their terminology. Equivocation about evil never leads to justice and redemption.

"We call things by their right names, in plain language, and no man's power shall awe us into submission."
-William Lloyd Garrison- (Abolitionist)


Selam




What were the societal implications when this was written? Would literally millions of Women have been rounded up and jailed and given the death penalty?

You might want to try learning a bit of history.

Sooo. Are you saying we should stone these Women to death or throw them into a dungeon? Maybe you guys can bring back burning at the stake.

Very wholesome.. Really a great way to convince people Christians are correct about abortion.

I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be informed about how widespread abortion and other forms of infanticide were in the ancient world.

And your point is?

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #260 on: February 22, 2013, 06:06:37 PM »
This is the type of discussion I am seeing in this thread, which is not productive:

"I think I'm going to cut down a tree in my front yard.  After the last storm I'm afraid it's going to fall and hit the house."

"Cutting down a tree, huh.  Because its inconvenient to you, eh.  I guess you support the destruction of all of our planets rain forests.  Way to love the Earth.  Why not just nuke the whole thing and be done with it."

Some responses don't seem to be thought through or at the very least, posts are just being looked over rather than read.

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #261 on: February 22, 2013, 06:24:46 PM »
Should women who had abortions be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby after it has been made illegal will be dealt with in the same manner as all premeditated murderers.

Should abortion doctors be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby for someone else will be treated as all assassins.

No need to punish them now.  If they obey the law they are no longer a threat to society.  God will deal with punishing them at his leisure.

Should the politicians who allowed this atrocity be rounded up an shot hung?  Yes.  They set up a system where millions upon millions of babies have been murdered in cold blood.   
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #262 on: February 22, 2013, 06:40:18 PM »
Should women who had abortions be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby after it has been made illegal will be dealt with in the same manner as all premeditated murderers.

Should abortion doctors be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby for someone else will be treated as all assassins.

No need to punish them now.  If they obey the law they are no longer a threat to society.  God will deal with punishing them at his leisure.

Yes. Yes. Yes. One has to wonder why this concept is so hard for Marc. I think I tried to explain it a few pages back...
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Offline Karaleighmum

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #263 on: February 22, 2013, 09:38:18 PM »
"Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?

This is the multi-billion dollar question.  When does life actually begin?  Ask 10 people and you will get 10 different answers.  Until we know for certain, I say be cautious and start at conception, to make sure we do not kill anyone.

Since we are talking about this, I was convinced by the abovementioned Catholic friend the abortion pill is also wrong.  Took some time, but he won me over.  I mention this because this is how you will change a person’s mind.  "

Well, I figure if life and death are secular opposites, and death is determined at the lack of pulse or heart beat, then life would begin at the heartbeat which is six weeks. You can be on all sorts of machines for being brain dead, a breathing machine, etc. But pretty much when your heart stops pulsing, you are determined dead. But, from a nonlegal and more spiritual perspective I believe if God allows the sperm to implant the egg and the blastocyst to implant in the uterine lining, then abortion is out of the question, for God has deemed it to be (so it appears)

I am a midwife student working with so many pro-choice women I just feel so bad for all the babies lost to whatever reason someone would give a baby away so drastically.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #264 on: February 22, 2013, 10:29:00 PM »
Should women who had abortions be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby after it has been made illegal will be dealt with in the same manner as all premeditated murderers.

Should abortion doctors be rounded up and shot?  No.  They acted legally at the time.  You cannot punish someone for breaking a law that was not on the books at the time they committed the crime.  Anyone found murdering a baby for someone else will be treated as all assassins.

No need to punish them now.  If they obey the law they are no longer a threat to society.  God will deal with punishing them at his leisure.

Should the politicians who allowed this atrocity be rounded up an shot hung?  Yes.  They set up a system where millions upon millions of babies have been murdered in cold blood.   

Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Then after you make it illegal again will the mass round ups  begin?

 Executions Too ? Because that is the penalty for cold blooded murder you know.

Is this really the Christian image of the future?





Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #265 on: February 22, 2013, 10:51:24 PM »
Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Way to have no freaking clue what a statute of limitations is.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #266 on: February 23, 2013, 12:46:34 AM »
Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Way to have no freaking clue what a statute of limitations is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations

A statute of limitations is an enactment in a common law legal system that sets the maximum time after an event that legal proceedings based on that event may be initiated. In civil law systems, similar provisions are typically part of the civil code or criminal code and are often known collectively as periods of prescription.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_statute_of_limitation_on_murder_in_the_US_and_other_countries


In the United States, there are many crime categories which hold no statute including:

    murder
    kidnapping
    treason
    fraud
    forgery
    embezzlement
    crimes against humanity (war crimes)

There is no statute of limitations for murder in any US state.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #267 on: February 23, 2013, 01:01:50 AM »
Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Way to have no freaking clue what a statute of limitations is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations

A statute of limitations is an enactment in a common law legal system that sets the maximum time after an event that legal proceedings based on that event may be initiated. In civil law systems, similar provisions are typically part of the civil code or criminal code and are often known collectively as periods of prescription.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_statute_of_limitation_on_murder_in_the_US_and_other_countries


In the United States, there are many crime categories which hold no statute including:

    murder
    kidnapping
    treason
    fraud
    forgery
    embezzlement
    crimes against humanity (war crimes)

There is no statute of limitations for murder in any US state.

I understand all that. But clearly you don't.

If we have a statute of limitations of ten years for crime X, that means that if you find out that I committed crime X more than ten years ago, you can't prosecute. It doesn't mean that when you pass the law making X a crime, you can prosecute anyone who performed the act in the ten years before you passed the law.

Statutes of limitations have to do with the time elapsed between commission of the crime and initiation of prosecution. They have nothing to do with time elapsed between performing a legal act and having that act criminalised.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #268 on: February 23, 2013, 01:41:09 AM »
Actually murder is a crime with no statute of limitations.. Are you admitting then that Abortion really isnt like that?

Way to have no freaking clue what a statute of limitations is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations

A statute of limitations is an enactment in a common law legal system that sets the maximum time after an event that legal proceedings based on that event may be initiated. In civil law systems, similar provisions are typically part of the civil code or criminal code and are often known collectively as periods of prescription.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_statute_of_limitation_on_murder_in_the_US_and_other_countries


In the United States, there are many crime categories which hold no statute including:

    murder
    kidnapping
    treason
    fraud
    forgery
    embezzlement
    crimes against humanity (war crimes)

There is no statute of limitations for murder in any US state.

I understand all that. But clearly you don't.

If we have a statute of limitations of ten years for crime X, that means that if you find out that I committed crime X more than ten years ago, you can't prosecute. It doesn't mean that when you pass the law making X a crime, you can prosecute anyone who performed the act in the ten years before you passed the law.

Statutes of limitations have to do with the time elapsed between commission of the crime and initiation of prosecution. They have nothing to do with time elapsed between performing a legal act and having that act criminalised.

You missed the point.. I'll go slower


If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?


Make illegal again --- Round ups begin



 
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #269 on: February 23, 2013, 03:16:59 AM »
You missed the point.. I'll go slower

I can't miss what you don't make.

If you read back you will discover that the topic of this thread is the question "Is Abortion Murder?"

Indeed it is, as I am fully aware.

I realize that you cant prosecute if something is legal when you did the deed.

Excellent. And abortion is legal now, correct?

That is why I asked when it becomes illegal again, would there be round ups of Women?

Are you smoking something? The only people who would be prosecuted would be those who did the deed after it was recriminalised, as you yourself pointed out in the previously quoted section. No need for round-ups.

Make illegal again --- Round ups begin

No, they don't.

Abortion was illegal in the past. Presumably at the time it was prosecuted. Then it became legal. Now, suppose hypothetically that becomes illegal again. It would work like this:

I L L E G A L ----------------------------> L E G A L ----------------------------------------> I L L E G A L
prosecuted if it happens in this time     never prosecuted if it happens in this time        prosecuted if it happens in this time

That clear enough for you?
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