Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 26905 times)

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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #180 on: December 02, 2012, 11:48:39 AM »
Does a single cell organism such as a paramecium have a desire to live? And if yes can this then be applied to a single cell just concieved human, that at every stage of life an organism has a true desire to live?

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #181 on: December 02, 2012, 12:30:49 PM »
I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  ;)
It hardle matters if an embryo is viable.
Not to you, I guess (whatever hardle means).

It hardly matters when an embyro is "viable" or living, because it is an arbitrary determinant. Viability should be factored before it.

Rhetorical nonsense.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #182 on: December 02, 2012, 12:31:29 PM »
Does a single cell organism such as a paramecium have a desire to live? And if yes can this then be applied to a single cell just concieved human, that at every stage of life an organism has a true desire to live?

First you must define "desire".
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #183 on: December 02, 2012, 06:06:48 PM »
10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.

What is even more sobering is that countless people would rather spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to try and conceive a child, when there is some medical issue or another, rather than adopt the baby of an unwed teen mother.
And?

And to put more meat on that bone, you make it sound like you just show up at said teen mother's door step and are given a baby.  Not so, and it often involves thousands upon thousands of dollars.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #184 on: December 02, 2012, 06:21:44 PM »
I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  ;)
It hardle matters if an embryo is viable.
Not to you, I guess (whatever hardle means).

It hardly matters when an embyro is "viable" or living, because it is an arbitrary determinant. Viability should be factored before it.

Rhetorical nonsense.

Nope. Viability is even before conception. So we agree except I go back even further.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #185 on: December 03, 2012, 11:49:42 AM »
I wonder...does shooting someone simply for breaking into our house fall into the category of murder or does that person need to purpose a serious threat for killing him to be justified?

As I udnerstand it the law various from place to place. For example if you set a lethal trap in you home, just in case, that may not be legal.
There also has to be some reasonable fear for your own safety before you can use deadly force. If a burglar enters your home and you startle him and he runs off, you cant chase him down and kill him. But if he enters your bedroom in the middle of the night, you may fire at will.   
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #186 on: December 04, 2012, 11:00:19 AM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #187 on: December 04, 2012, 11:30:00 AM »
I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  ;)
It hardle matters if an embryo is viable.
Not to you, I guess (whatever hardle means).

It hardly matters when an embyro is "viable" or living, because it is an arbitrary determinant. Viability should be factored before it.

Rhetorical nonsense.

Nope. Viability is even before conception. So we agree except I go back even further.

So you agree with the RCs about condoms, birth control, masturbation, butt secks, and the like, then?

I'm going to need this.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #188 on: December 04, 2012, 05:02:46 PM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.

Define murder. Is it like hiring a hit man to kill someone deseriving  life in prison or the death penalty or is it not like that but rather something different?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #189 on: December 04, 2012, 05:24:48 PM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.

Define murder. Is it like hiring a hit man to kill someone deseriving  life in prison or the death penalty or is it not like that but rather something different?
Real definition: causing the soul and spirit to part from the body.

Legal definition: causing the body to permanently lose its consciousness and its vital signs to begin to shut down, unable to retain said signs without artificial means.

Hiring is deserving enough for life in prison or the death penalty, even if not successful, IMHO.  Whether such should be applied or other disposition of the case depends on circumstances.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #190 on: December 04, 2012, 06:07:31 PM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.

Define murder. Is it like hiring a hit man to kill someone deseriving  life in prison or the death penalty or is it not like that but rather something different?
Real definition: causing the soul and spirit to part from the body.

Legal definition: causing the body to permanently lose its consciousness and its vital signs to begin to shut down, unable to retain said signs without artificial means.

Hiring is deserving enough for life in prison or the death penalty, even if not successful, IMHO.  Whether such should be applied or other disposition of the case depends on circumstances.

That was not not very clear. Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of? Having a family that needs her perhaps?



Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #191 on: December 04, 2012, 06:27:44 PM »
That prison chick is kinda hot!
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #192 on: December 04, 2012, 06:45:51 PM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.

Define murder. Is it like hiring a hit man to kill someone deseriving  life in prison or the death penalty or is it not like that but rather something different?
Real definition: causing the soul and spirit to part from the body.

Legal definition: causing the body to permanently lose its consciousness and its vital signs to begin to shut down, unable to retain said signs without artificial means.

Hiring is deserving enough for life in prison or the death penalty, even if not successful, IMHO.  Whether such should be applied or other disposition of the case depends on circumstances.

That was not not very clear. Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of? Having a family that needs her perhaps?





don't know who you put up.  Sorry.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #193 on: December 04, 2012, 10:26:31 PM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.

Define murder. Is it like hiring a hit man to kill someone deseriving  life in prison or the death penalty or is it not like that but rather something different?
Real definition: causing the soul and spirit to part from the body.

Legal definition: causing the body to permanently lose its consciousness and its vital signs to begin to shut down, unable to retain said signs without artificial means.

Hiring is deserving enough for life in prison or the death penalty, even if not successful, IMHO.  Whether such should be applied or other disposition of the case depends on circumstances.

That was not not very clear. Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of? Having a family that needs her perhaps?





don't know who you put up.  Sorry.

I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #194 on: December 05, 2012, 12:23:05 AM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

I'm going to need this.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #195 on: December 05, 2012, 01:01:29 AM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

I would say neither, based on your description. With more detail, prison may be warranted. Death penalty never in my opinion.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #196 on: December 05, 2012, 01:09:17 AM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

I would say neither, based on your description. With more detail, prison may be warranted. Death penalty never in my opinion.
In general, or just for mothers?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #197 on: December 05, 2012, 01:10:25 AM »
Btw, on the OP, if the blastocyst was not a human person, they wouldn't be so eager for it for stem cells and other forms of experimentation.

All life begins at its conception. You might have a problem with deciding on paramecia, when a new one starts at the cell splitting, but murder only involves human life, we can leave that one to the Scholastics.

Define murder. Is it like hiring a hit man to kill someone deseriving  life in prison or the death penalty or is it not like that but rather something different?
Real definition: causing the soul and spirit to part from the body.

Legal definition: causing the body to permanently lose its consciousness and its vital signs to begin to shut down, unable to retain said signs without artificial means.

Hiring is deserving enough for life in prison or the death penalty, even if not successful, IMHO.  Whether such should be applied or other disposition of the case depends on circumstances.

That was not not very clear. Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of? Having a family that needs her perhaps?





don't know who you put up.  Sorry.

I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?
I answered it the first time.

Who are the pictures of?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 01:10:47 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #198 on: December 05, 2012, 01:12:17 AM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

I would say neither, based on your description. With more detail, prison may be warranted. Death penalty never in my opinion.

Though a tangent, yes I agree. For someone to oppose abortion and not the death penalty in some manner.

While I'm not 100% opposed the the death penalty, thinking there may be some circumstances that make it more prudent, I generally favor life sentences of state labor. If someone has done work grievous enough to void their life (death or life sentence), then their life may as well be beneficial to society.

I'm going to need this.

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #199 on: December 05, 2012, 10:17:31 AM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

I would say neither, based on your description. With more detail, prison may be warranted. Death penalty never in my opinion.

Though a tangent, yes I agree. For someone to oppose abortion and not the death penalty in some manner.

While I'm not 100% opposed the the death penalty, thinking there may be some circumstances that make it more prudent, I generally favor life sentences of state labor. If someone has done work grievous enough to void their life (death or life sentence), then their life may as well be beneficial to society.

Still tangential, but that is the one argument that I consider valid against the death penalty.  The first time someone brought it up was a decade ago in conversation and I still agree with it, though generally prefer executions just because of the chance of escape.  With sufficient guards and a 'shoot-to-kill' policy in escapes I see your idea as very plausible. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #200 on: December 05, 2012, 12:41:38 PM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

Crime of passion or premeditate for gain? I am never for the Death Penalty btw..

Sure, premeditated murder gets life. A Women who gets an Abortion will never under any circumstances now or in the future get Life in Prison.. Why do you think there is a difference?

« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 12:42:16 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #201 on: December 05, 2012, 12:44:57 PM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

Crime of passion or premeditate for gain? I am never for the Death Penalty btw..

Sure, premeditated murder gets life. A Women who gets an Abortion will never under any circumstances now or in the future get Life in Prison.. Why do you think there is a difference?


I so wish this was not in the faith issues forum.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #202 on: December 05, 2012, 12:50:12 PM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

Crime of passion or premeditate for gain? I am never for the Death Penalty btw..

Sure, premeditated murder gets life. A Women who gets an Abortion will never under any circumstances now or in the future get Life in Prison.. Why do you think there is a difference?


sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #203 on: December 05, 2012, 02:58:04 PM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

Crime of passion or premeditate for gain? I am never for the Death Penalty btw..

Sure, premeditated murder gets life. A Women who gets an Abortion will never under any circumstances now or in the future get Life in Prison.. Why do you think there is a difference?


sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.

Beautifully well put.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #204 on: December 06, 2012, 12:23:53 PM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

Crime of passion or premeditate for gain? I am never for the Death Penalty btw..

Sure, premeditated murder gets life. A Women who gets an Abortion will never under any circumstances now or in the future get Life in Prison.. Why do you think there is a difference?


I so wish this was not in the faith issues forum.

do us a favor and start a new thread there.

thanks.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #205 on: December 06, 2012, 12:31:12 PM »
I thought it was a fair question.

Here it is again:

Are you saying that getting an abortion ( "Hiring") should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty? What are the mitigating circumstances you are thinking of?

Do you think that a woman killing one of her three living children should or should not get the woman life in prison or the death penalty?

Crime of passion or premeditate for gain? I am never for the Death Penalty btw..

Sure, premeditated murder gets life. A Women who gets an Abortion will never under any circumstances now or in the future get Life in Prison.. Why do you think there is a difference?


sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.

I am not sure it is accurate to compare sexual dalliances with pre-meditated murder.

When we do compare abortion to something similar like when Women commit murder, we find that they do get the death penalty. It wasnt always  that way but now Women get The Chair frequently.

So if it is really murder, then Women would get Life or the Death Penalty because there is no longer any cultural stigma against Women getting that sort of sentence . Correct?

Therefore, the real problem may be in calling Abortion "Murder" not in some stigma against harsh sentences for Women murderers which factually no longer exists in our society. 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #206 on: December 06, 2012, 03:53:50 PM »
sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.

I am not sure it is accurate to compare sexual dalliances with pre-meditated murder.


He's not, he's showing bias in law.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #207 on: December 06, 2012, 06:51:53 PM »
sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.

I am not sure it is accurate to compare sexual dalliances with pre-meditated murder.


He's not, he's showing bias in law.

I got that part.  Then  I mentioned that there does not seem to be any bias in favor of Women who commit murder anymore. They get Life or the Death Penalty.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #208 on: December 06, 2012, 07:54:36 PM »
sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.

I am not sure it is accurate to compare sexual dalliances with pre-meditated murder.


He's not, he's showing bias in law.

I got that part.  Then  I mentioned that there does not seem to be any bias in favor of Women who commit murder anymore. They get Life or the Death Penalty.

And here we are arguing that abortion is murder even though THE GOVERNMENT doesn't recognize it as such. Who makes the laws?

I'm going to need this.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #209 on: December 06, 2012, 09:45:23 PM »
sort the same reason a woman teacher sleeping with a student gets probation where a man would get 10-15 years.  And women in any case rarely were executed.

I am not sure it is accurate to compare sexual dalliances with pre-meditated murder.


My central point is that you can be strident and use extreme language if you want. But the logic behind calling abortion murder


I got that part.  Then  I mentioned that there does not seem to be any bias in favor of Women who commit murder anymore. They get Life or the Death Penalty.

And here we are arguing that abortion is murder even though THE GOVERNMENT doesn't recognize it as such. Who makes the laws?

My central point is that you can be strident and use extreme language if you want. But the logic behind calling abortion murder breaks down at certain points. Because of that, it's more difficult to persuade Women not to have an abortion.

I sort of agree with you. We should primarily discuss abortion within a religious context. 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline serb1389

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #210 on: December 18, 2012, 01:34:40 AM »
So a thought...

I'd everything that Christ did, is an act of salvation, a la his birth, death, resurrection, etc, then how is the Incarnation overlooked? 

We celebrate the conception of St. John the Baptist & of the Theotokos.  So, why not of every concieved child?

Just thinking
I got nothing.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #211 on: December 18, 2012, 02:13:09 AM »
We celebrate the conception of St. John the Baptist & of the Theotokos.  So, why not of every concieved child?
Fr.,

Is that not what we do at each baptism, each churching, each wedding, each funeral, each commemoration?
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #212 on: December 18, 2012, 02:16:39 AM »
Beautifully well put.

Grammatically hideous.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #213 on: December 18, 2012, 02:36:30 AM »
So a thought...

I'd everything that Christ did, is an act of salvation, a la his birth, death, resurrection, etc, then how is the Incarnation overlooked? 

We celebrate the conception of St. John the Baptist & of the Theotokos.  So, why not of every concieved child?

Just thinking
Inconvenience would be my guess.  These are sad times.

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #214 on: December 18, 2012, 02:42:38 AM »
We celebrate the conception of St. John the Baptist & of the Theotokos.  So, why not of every concieved child?
Fr.,

Is that not what we do at each baptism, each churching, each wedding, each funeral, each commemoration?

That's the stuff that comes later.  I'm trying to look at it from "beginnings" POV
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Offline William

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2012, 03:06:49 AM »
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2012, 12:04:38 PM »
Jesus on abortions

Really good . There were also other clips from Scrubs that followed that cant be shown on an Orthodox forum.



Thanks
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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #217 on: December 18, 2012, 11:48:30 PM »
Jesus on abortions

Really good . There were also other clips from Scrubs that followed that cant be shown on an Orthodox forum.



Thanks

I only linked the one video. It ain't in a playlist or anything.
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Offline Eldo55

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #218 on: February 21, 2013, 07:41:43 AM »
http://andreaskoutsoudis3.com/the-beliefs-of-orthodox-christians/an-orthodox-view-of-abortion/

yes, it is murder, indeed!

please use the link above to read an excellent article on this topic?!
You fast now and then, but I am never refreshed by any food; you often keep vigil, but I never fall asleep. Only in one thing are you better than I am and I acknowledge that.” Macarius said to him, “What is that?” and he replied, “It is because of your humility alone that I cannot overcome you.”

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #219 on: February 21, 2013, 11:23:51 AM »
http://andreaskoutsoudis3.com/the-beliefs-of-orthodox-christians/an-orthodox-view-of-abortion/

yes, it is murder, indeed!

please use the link above to read an excellent article on this topic?!

I think there is a  major semantical problem. Is abortion "Murder" as meaning it is abhorrent and the taking of a fetal life should always be avoided? Or is it "Murder" like killing a bank teller during a robbery or shooting someone on the street?

Because if it is the latter than we must impose the Death Penalty or at least life in Prison on Women who have had an abortion. If that doesn't make perfect sense, then perhaps the word "Murder" is not precise enough to use in relation to Abortion.

Then there is also a problem with imposing a religious belief upon people who don't agree with you. This is very problematic with abortions especially when they are done in very early stages or even the "Morning After"..

 The objection is that the "soul" enters the "person"  the moment the sperm and egg unite. That may well be and personally I would err on the side of caution if in doubt about that. However, many other people do not beleive there is such a thing as a "soul" or they have radically different concepts of what a soul is from Orthodox Christians. Therefore, to try and legislate away abortion is a dead end which at this late date, should be obvious. It comes across as forcing a religious belief upon people.

The only sure road, in my opinion, to lessening and eventually ending the practice of abortion is to convince people not to do it, not to try and force concepts on them that they dont share with us. Ultimately, converting people to our religious beliefs is the surest road and probably the only road to success.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 11:24:55 AM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Eldo55

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #220 on: February 21, 2013, 11:36:24 AM »
"The only sure road, in my opinion, to lessening and eventually ending the practice of abortion is to convince people not to do it, not to try and force concepts on them that they dont share with us. Ultimately, converting people to our religious beliefs is the surest road and probably the only road to success."

I wasn't forcing anyone to agree with me or us, I merely think that killing a baby (i do not call a child a foetus, they are a person from conception) is wrong and I agree that people must learn not to do it.  Yes, there are many different opinions in the Orthodox Faith too, on this subject, but the right one is that life is sacred, no matter what age or size a person is, no matter if they are not yet visible with the naked eye.  And all people of all faiths and background must understand this, not by force, but by understanding and conversion so that millions of lives are not needlessly cut short, before birth, as we are all from God and The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
You fast now and then, but I am never refreshed by any food; you often keep vigil, but I never fall asleep. Only in one thing are you better than I am and I acknowledge that.” Macarius said to him, “What is that?” and he replied, “It is because of your humility alone that I cannot overcome you.”

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #221 on: February 21, 2013, 11:37:38 AM »
According to the logic of trying to prevent death, it seems not.  I'm not saying it's good or preferred, just that it wouldn't be murder according to the other examples.

I have yet to come across a concrete example where aborting the baby is the only way to save the mother.  It is always hypothetical, and some doctors have already come out and said that no such scenario exists.

An ectopic pregnancy is a different thing.  The fetus is implanted in the Fallopian tube where it has zero chance of survival.  It is dying if not already dead.

In both cases, it is the grey area between 'healthy' and 'dead' that has caused preventable grief.

The case of Savita Halappanavar shows it: she was miscarrying, but refused a D&C while there was still a fetal heartbeat. By the time the fetus was pronounced dead, septicemia had set in. Did the doctors really have to wait?

In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the zygote can be technically alive and well for several days, until the complications of restricted space set in. Someone who rigorously believes there's already a soul in that minuscule mass of cells could very well insist that the condition should come to its end before surgical intervention, ignoring the excruciating pain it causes and hoping to stop the internal bleeding caused by the rupture before the woman dies of it.

As a woman who has been through pregnancy and childbirth, both scenarios give me the screaming heebiejeebies.
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Offline Eldo55

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #222 on: February 21, 2013, 11:58:29 AM »
You fast now and then, but I am never refreshed by any food; you often keep vigil, but I never fall asleep. Only in one thing are you better than I am and I acknowledge that.” Macarius said to him, “What is that?” and he replied, “It is because of your humility alone that I cannot overcome you.”

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #223 on: February 21, 2013, 12:00:41 PM »
http://andreaskoutsoudis3.com/the-beliefs-of-orthodox-christians/the-orthodox-view-on-abortion/

another very useful link on the topic of abortion!

Could you please bother to discuss with the rest of us like real people, instead of just throwing links at us?
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Offline Eldo55

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Re: Is Abortion actually murder?
« Reply #224 on: February 21, 2013, 12:07:53 PM »
that's not very nice... the links are relevant to the topics and i have discussed my opinion somewhat in my above reply
You fast now and then, but I am never refreshed by any food; you often keep vigil, but I never fall asleep. Only in one thing are you better than I am and I acknowledge that.” Macarius said to him, “What is that?” and he replied, “It is because of your humility alone that I cannot overcome you.”