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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 24136 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: November 28, 2012, 06:45:10 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".



Sounds good.

I wonder if any other anti-abortionists will ever grow the stones to agree.

So easily you buy that seductive argument, the false syllogism about "no civilized society would..." and ignore the obvious that those societies in fact are NOT civilized.
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« Reply #136 on: November 28, 2012, 07:14:14 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".


Maybe in a truly civilized society there should be a prison term for abortion. The fact that there is not, is a good sign that Western society is no longer civilized.
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« Reply #137 on: November 28, 2012, 07:31:55 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".



Sounds good.

I wonder if any other anti-abortionists will ever grow the stones to agree.

So easily you buy that seductive argument, the false syllogism about "no civilized society would..." and ignore the obvious that those societies in fact are NOT civilized.

Oh okay.. I kinda thought they were.. England anyway.. ( excluding Scotland of course).
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« Reply #138 on: November 28, 2012, 07:37:44 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".


Maybe in a truly civilized society there should be a prison term for abortion. The fact that there is not, is a good sign that Western society is no longer civilized.

 And that is why perfectly reasonable people reject the entire Pro Life argument. They hear childish stuff like that and figure they are in the right. Cant blame them.



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« Reply #139 on: November 28, 2012, 07:39:51 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".


Maybe in a truly civilized society there should be a prison term for abortion. The fact that there is not, is a good sign that Western society is no longer civilized.

 And that is why perfectly reasonable people reject the entire Pro Life argument. They hear childish stuff like that and figure they are in the right. Cant blame them.




Ha! Reasonable like genghis khan.
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« Reply #140 on: November 28, 2012, 07:45:44 PM »

Very good, Antonis.
We should also add Canon XCI of the Council in Trullo:
"Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the fœtus, are subjected to the penalty of murder. "

and:

Canon XXI of the Council of Ancyra:
"Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented.  Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees."

Both of these were received ecumenically in the following general synod. I do not know how much more specific it can be for us.

(Available at the CCEL website in The Seven Ecumenical Councils
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« Reply #141 on: November 28, 2012, 07:47:54 PM »

Just realized that this was the faith issues forum. I'm going to drop out of the thread as per forum rules. Sorry moderators.
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« Reply #142 on: November 28, 2012, 07:56:29 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".


Maybe in a truly civilized society there should be a prison term for abortion. The fact that there is not, is a good sign that Western society is no longer civilized.

 And that is why perfectly reasonable people reject the entire Pro Life argument. They hear childish stuff like that and figure they are in the right. Cant blame them.




Ha! Reasonable like genghis khan.

Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

.



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« Reply #143 on: November 28, 2012, 08:12:14 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.
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« Reply #144 on: November 28, 2012, 08:25:00 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".



Sounds good.

I wonder if any other anti-abortionists will ever grow the stones to agree.

So easily you buy that seductive argument, the false syllogism about "no civilized society would..." and ignore the obvious that those societies in fact are NOT civilized.

I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing??
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« Reply #145 on: November 28, 2012, 08:40:43 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".


Maybe in a truly civilized society there should be a prison term for abortion. The fact that there is not, is a good sign that Western society is no longer civilized.

 And that is why perfectly reasonable people reject the entire Pro Life argument. They hear childish stuff like that and figure they are in the right. Cant blame them.




Ha! Reasonable like genghis khan.

Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

.





Who cares what ideas these allegedly reasonable women hold?

It is beyond argument that it is plainly immoral to terminate the life of a child eight or nine months old, even while still in the mother's womb (the heinousness of the act is even more plainly apprehended where the termination was over the objection of the mother). You and these other allegedly reasonable people wouldn't dare to argue that such a thing is subjective or subject to reasonable disagreement. You and these other allegedly reasonable people would demand the killer be subject to legal sanction, including potentially to a term of imprisonment.

While your argument may hold water at the "small mass of multiplying cells" stage of gestation, it is plain that any civilised society would, in fact, demand some punishment for the killer of a child at the late stages of its development in the womb. Pretending like this whole matter is one of subjective judgment about which people might civilly disagree while taking tea and scones is bizarre, especially as our knowledge of foetal development advances.
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« Reply #146 on: November 28, 2012, 09:13:34 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 
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« Reply #147 on: November 28, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".


Maybe in a truly civilized society there should be a prison term for abortion. The fact that there is not, is a good sign that Western society is no longer civilized.

 And that is why perfectly reasonable people reject the entire Pro Life argument. They hear childish stuff like that and figure they are in the right. Cant blame them.




Ha! Reasonable like genghis khan.

Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

.





Who cares what ideas these allegedly reasonable women hold?

It is beyond argument that it is plainly immoral to terminate the life of a child eight or nine months old, even while still in the mother's womb (the heinousness of the act is even more plainly apprehended where the termination was over the objection of the mother). You and these other allegedly reasonable people wouldn't dare to argue that such a thing is subjective or subject to reasonable disagreement. You and these other allegedly reasonable people would demand the killer be subject to legal sanction, including potentially to a term of imprisonment.

While your argument may hold water at the "small mass of multiplying cells" stage of gestation, it is plain that any civilised society would, in fact, demand some punishment for the killer of a child at the late stages of its development in the womb. Pretending like this whole matter is one of subjective judgment about which people might civilly disagree while taking tea and scones is bizarre, especially as our knowledge of foetal development advances.

Who cares what ideas these allegedly reasonable women hold?


The electorate

any civilised society would, in fact, demand some punishment for the killer of a child at the late stages of its development in the womb.

But that isnt the whole story is it? I thought the soul enters the body at conception. Therefore, even the death of a zygote not attached to the uterine wall is a Murder too. Right or wrong?



 
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« Reply #148 on: November 28, 2012, 09:43:58 PM »

Is the assent to a thought of desire to have an abortion murder since you already murdered in your heart?
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« Reply #149 on: November 28, 2012, 10:32:52 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.
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« Reply #150 on: November 28, 2012, 11:01:31 PM »

Is the assent to a thought of desire to have an abortion murder since you already murdered in your heart?

I would say that it is lesser because since it is legal the only thing stopping you is your conscience.  It is temptation.  To not go through with it is an act of mercy.  If I had a strong desire to kill you but thought better of it it could be said that fear of retribution stopped me.  If I were an autocrat and thought to kill you but decided against it despite having every opportunity and justification to do so, that would generally be considered clemency.
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« Reply #151 on: November 28, 2012, 11:18:11 PM »

Who cares what ideas these allegedly reasonable women hold?


The electorate

Thank God for the common law.

any civilised society would, in fact, demand some punishment for the killer of a child at the late stages of its development in the womb.

But that isnt the whole story is it? I thought the soul enters the body at conception. Therefore, even the death of a zygote not attached to the uterine wall is a Murder too. Right or wrong?

Nice try, but that was not my contention. My contention was that there are certain types of "abortion" (what a hideous word, drawing as it does a false equivalence between aborting a project and ending a human life) which are plainly immoral and about which reasonably people would agree constitute murder, if not wilful manslaughter. I object to the picture you paint, wherein whether or not the dismembering of a "viable" human child is immoral is a question on which reasonable minds might differ, potentially while politely nibbling at crustless cucumber sandwiches.
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« Reply #152 on: November 28, 2012, 11:18:47 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley
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« Reply #153 on: November 28, 2012, 11:25:54 PM »

Who cares what ideas these allegedly reasonable women hold?


The electorate

Thank God for the common law.

any civilised society would, in fact, demand some punishment for the killer of a child at the late stages of its development in the womb.

But that isnt the whole story is it? I thought the soul enters the body at conception. Therefore, even the death of a zygote not attached to the uterine wall is a Murder too. Right or wrong?

Nice try, but that was not my contention. My contention was that there are certain types of "abortion" (what a hideous word, drawing as it does a false equivalence between aborting a project and ending a human life) which are plainly immoral and about which reasonably people would agree constitute murder, if not wilful manslaughter. I object to the picture you paint, wherein whether or not the dismembering of a "viable" human child is immoral is a question on which reasonable minds might differ, potentially while politely nibbling at crustless cucumber sandwiches.

Okay...That's pretty easy and by in large already in place. Very late term abortions are relatively easy to persuade people to avoid. They practically have to put a bullet behind the ear in some cases.. The issue is if a fetus at any stage including Zygotes are fully persons as the Church teaches. That is much harder to beleive and is really a matter of faith and religion, so it is difficult to legislate against. 

Since it is really a matter of religious faith then that probably should be the ground the battle should be fought on, persuading people.
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« Reply #154 on: November 28, 2012, 11:46:10 PM »

Who cares what ideas these allegedly reasonable women hold?


The electorate

Thank God for the common law.

any civilised society would, in fact, demand some punishment for the killer of a child at the late stages of its development in the womb.

But that isnt the whole story is it? I thought the soul enters the body at conception. Therefore, even the death of a zygote not attached to the uterine wall is a Murder too. Right or wrong?

Nice try, but that was not my contention. My contention was that there are certain types of "abortion" (what a hideous word, drawing as it does a false equivalence between aborting a project and ending a human life) which are plainly immoral and about which reasonably people would agree constitute murder, if not wilful manslaughter. I object to the picture you paint, wherein whether or not the dismembering of a "viable" human child is immoral is a question on which reasonable minds might differ, potentially while politely nibbling at crustless cucumber sandwiches.

Okay...That's pretty easy and by in large already in place. Very late term abortions are relatively easy to persuade people to avoid. They practically have to put a bullet behind the ear in some cases.. The issue is if a fetus at any stage including Zygotes are fully persons as the Church teaches. That is much harder to beleive and is really a matter of faith and religion, so it is difficult to legislate against. 

Since it is really a matter of religious faith then that probably should be the ground the battle should be fought on, persuading people.

Fair enough, Marc.

I'm not sure I agree, but I appreciate your argument when it is properly confined in this way.

Let us also acknowledge that "abortions" are very rarely performed on a four, eight or sixteen cell organism. I find it disconcerting that the more we are learning about foetal development and the early complexity of the child, the more we seem to have little trouble ending its life.
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« Reply #155 on: November 29, 2012, 01:06:03 AM »

The law is a very imperfect (and sometimes amoral) application of morality. Abortion is murder in moral terms. Its legal standing is irrelevent.
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« Reply #156 on: November 29, 2012, 11:26:20 AM »

The law is a very imperfect (and sometimes amoral) application of morality. Abortion is murder in moral terms. Its legal standing is irrelevent.

But, as presented it has the opposite effect of ending or curtailing abortions.

This is especially true if people find out that many in the Pro-Life side, like Papist, desire to fill the Prisons with Women who have abortions because they are "Murderers". People then rightly conclude that this is an immature political formulation, untethered from reality and dismiss the entirety of the Pro-Life argument as crackpot.

So you can win the right to use extreme rhetorical language or you can find an effective way to persuade people. You cant do both.
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« Reply #157 on: November 29, 2012, 11:28:55 AM »

Let us also acknowledge that "abortions" are very rarely performed on a four, eight or sixteen cell organism.

I am not sure that is true. Doesn't the Morning After Pill do exactly that? Isnt it's use very wide spread?
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« Reply #158 on: November 29, 2012, 12:22:18 PM »

The law is a very imperfect (and sometimes amoral) application of morality. Abortion is murder in moral terms. Its legal standing is irrelevent.

But, as presented it has the opposite effect of ending or curtailing abortions.

This is especially true if people find out that many in the Pro-Life side, like Papist, desire to fill the Prisons with Women who have abortions because they are "Murderers". People then rightly conclude that this is an immature political formulation, untethered from reality and dismiss the entirety of the Pro-Life argument as crackpot.

So you can win the right to use extreme rhetorical language or you can find an effective way to persuade people. You cant do both.

Well, they all laughed at Jesus when he did it.

For that reason and others, I don't buy the idiotic "they're all going to laugh at us" argument. They're going to do that anyway. Why play the game? The Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us it is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
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« Reply #159 on: November 29, 2012, 01:21:01 PM »

Let us also acknowledge that "abortions" are very rarely performed on a four, eight or sixteen cell organism.

I am not sure that is true. Doesn't the Morning After Pill do exactly that? Isnt it's use very wide spread?

No it does not.

And that is all I have for this round of abortion nonsense.
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« Reply #160 on: November 29, 2012, 02:03:13 PM »

The law is a very imperfect (and sometimes amoral) application of morality. Abortion is murder in moral terms. Its legal standing is irrelevent.

But, as presented it has the opposite effect of ending or curtailing abortions.

This is especially true if people find out that many in the Pro-Life side, like Papist, desire to fill the Prisons with Women who have abortions because they are "Murderers". People then rightly conclude that this is an immature political formulation, untethered from reality and dismiss the entirety of the Pro-Life argument as crackpot.

So you can win the right to use extreme rhetorical language or you can find an effective way to persuade people. You cant do both.

Well, they all laughed at Jesus when he did it.

For that reason and others, I don't buy the idiotic "they're all going to laugh at us" argument. They're going to do that anyway. Why play the game? The Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us it is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I think there are actual real World Consequences for exteme rhetoric past laughing. For example, most Women voted the other way and now the Supreme Court will be packed with Pro Choice Justices making the overturn of Roe v. Wade impossible for a generation or two... ya know..for one thing Smiley
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« Reply #161 on: November 30, 2012, 05:26:01 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.
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« Reply #162 on: November 30, 2012, 05:53:59 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.

As an aside to this, are there any Orthodox Christians out there who do not believe, as a matter of religion, that abortion is the ending of a human life at any point after conception?  Looking at this from an entirely religious perspective, I thought this should be clear cut.  Is there any acceptable reason to the Church to end a pregnancy?  I think this should really be the only thing up to debate.
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« Reply #163 on: November 30, 2012, 10:22:16 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.

Oh okay..Christian Tradition and Scripture clearly considers having an abortion a sin of the highest order.

Now then, are you considering forcing your religion on others or will you try to find ways to be persuasive?
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« Reply #164 on: November 30, 2012, 10:26:55 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.

As an aside to this, are there any Orthodox Christians out there who do not believe, as a matter of religion, that abortion is the ending of a human life at any point after conception?  Looking at this from an entirely religious perspective, I thought this should be clear cut.  Is there any acceptable reason to the Church to end a pregnancy?  I think this should really be the only thing up to debate.

The Roman Church allows an abortion if the life of the mother is in danger and nothing extra is done to specifically to end the life of the fetus.
I assume we follow the same idea.``
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« Reply #165 on: December 01, 2012, 01:54:30 AM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.

As an aside to this, are there any Orthodox Christians out there who do not believe, as a matter of religion, that abortion is the ending of a human life at any point after conception?  Looking at this from an entirely religious perspective, I thought this should be clear cut.  Is there any acceptable reason to the Church to end a pregnancy?  I think this should really be the only thing up to debate.

The Roman Church allows an abortion if the life of the mother is in danger and nothing extra is done to specifically to end the life of the fetus.
I assume we follow the same idea.``

They do? ...?
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« Reply #166 on: December 01, 2012, 09:40:09 AM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.

As an aside to this, are there any Orthodox Christians out there who do not believe, as a matter of religion, that abortion is the ending of a human life at any point after conception?  Looking at this from an entirely religious perspective, I thought this should be clear cut.  Is there any acceptable reason to the Church to end a pregnancy?  I think this should really be the only thing up to debate.

The Roman Church allows an abortion if the life of the mother is in danger and nothing extra is done to specifically to end the life of the fetus.
I assume we follow the same idea.``

They do? ...?

More important...we do?
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« Reply #167 on: December 01, 2012, 10:30:53 AM »

The law is a very imperfect (and sometimes amoral) application of morality. Abortion is murder in moral terms. Its legal standing is irrelevent.

But, as presented it has the opposite effect of ending or curtailing abortions.

This is especially true if people find out that many in the Pro-Life side, like Papist, desire to fill the Prisons with Women who have abortions because they are "Murderers". People then rightly conclude that this is an immature political formulation, untethered from reality and dismiss the entirety of the Pro-Life argument as crackpot.

So you can win the right to use extreme rhetorical language or you can find an effective way to persuade people. You cant do both.

Well, they all laughed at Jesus when he did it.

For that reason and others, I don't buy the idiotic "they're all going to laugh at us" argument. They're going to do that anyway. Why play the game? The Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us it is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I think there are actual real World Consequences for exteme rhetoric past laughing. For example, most Women voted the other way and now the Supreme Court will be packed with Pro Choice Justices making the overturn of Roe v. Wade impossible for a generation or two... ya know..for one thing Smiley
Do you honestly think most of those women have had their child ripped out their womb and want the "right" to do it again?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #168 on: December 01, 2012, 12:11:02 PM »

The law is a very imperfect (and sometimes amoral) application of morality. Abortion is murder in moral terms. Its legal standing is irrelevent.

But, as presented it has the opposite effect of ending or curtailing abortions.

This is especially true if people find out that many in the Pro-Life side, like Papist, desire to fill the Prisons with Women who have abortions because they are "Murderers". People then rightly conclude that this is an immature political formulation, untethered from reality and dismiss the entirety of the Pro-Life argument as crackpot.

So you can win the right to use extreme rhetorical language or you can find an effective way to persuade people. You cant do both.

Well, they all laughed at Jesus when he did it.

For that reason and others, I don't buy the idiotic "they're all going to laugh at us" argument. They're going to do that anyway. Why play the game? The Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us it is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I think there are actual real World Consequences for exteme rhetoric past laughing. For example, most Women voted the other way and now the Supreme Court will be packed with Pro Choice Justices making the overturn of Roe v. Wade impossible for a generation or two... ya know..for one thing Smiley
Do you honestly think most of those women have had their child ripped out their womb and want the "right" to do it again?

In Christ,
Andrew

I don't believe that most women and men don't think abortion is right however they opt to keep it legal "just in case" the answer to the question "is abortion murder" is obvious, but not much help. The answer to the question "what's the underlying cause of a person wanting the option of having an abortion" is not so obvious, but would be wonderfully helpful.
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« Reply #169 on: December 01, 2012, 12:48:12 PM »


Nope..Reasonable like every day Women in all walks of life who may have a different idea about when the soul enters a fetus or even if there is such a thing as a soul.

Marc--IMHO there a difference between "reasonable" as an adjective that describes a good logic argument and "reasonable" as a conclusion that is reasonable not only because of the logic argument but also because the premises are true. Also, isn't there a difference between secular and religious arguments, where the latter will have additional faith-based premises?

In the case of argumentation by folks who are not Christian, it is true that the argument ultimately rests on the premise of whether and when a human being becomes a person.

In the case of argumentation by folks who are Christians, I would submit that it would be extremely difficult for a Christian to come up with a premise that would justify supporting abortion. In the case of an Orthodox Christian, that would be impossible.

But the reality is that there are millions and millions of Christians who disagree with you not even to mention Americans who are not Christians. Their standards may be different than yours. So a wholesale broad brush condemnation of otherwise perfectly normal, reasonable people as "Murders", and..under threat of Prison should Papist and the like come to power ends the conversation about abortion.

So you can decide to have a conversation that otherwise fine people will listen to or you can be self righteous and continue to talk to yourself.

 

At issue are the self-definition of oneself as a Christian and the cafeteria approach that some folks take. If everything is subjective, I would agree with you. If that is not so, then I must disagree. A Christian is supposed to heed the Word, at the very least. A Christian cannot create his own foundational beliefs and objectively call himself a Christian. An Orthodox Christian has an additional problem with having to at least defer to the Church's interpretation of the Word.

I will tell you this: prove to me that abortion is not a sin (a) using the Bible and (b) using the Orthodox Holy Tradition. Then, we will talk some more. Right now, the only thing that you are doing is to appeal to my emotions.

I dont understand your line of argument at all. This is America. There is no State religion. We are talking about persuading people not to have abortions and if strident language does any good.

So unless you plan on forcing your religious beliefs on your fellow Americans I fail to see what you are suggesting or what you need to know.

Please advise  Smiley

Since we are in the Faith Issues, I thought we were addressing OP's question as a faith issue, that is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. Once we agree on an Orthodox Christian answer to that question, then we could pursue it further in Politics to discuss how we can affect public discourse.

As an aside to this, are there any Orthodox Christians out there who do not believe, as a matter of religion, that abortion is the ending of a human life at any point after conception?  Looking at this from an entirely religious perspective, I thought this should be clear cut.  Is there any acceptable reason to the Church to end a pregnancy?  I think this should really be the only thing up to debate.

The Roman Church allows an abortion if the life of the mother is in danger and nothing extra is done to specifically to end the life of the fetus.
I assume we follow the same idea.``

They do? ...?

The name of obstetrical abortion is given by physicians to such as is performed to save the life of the mother. Whether this practice is ever morally lawful we shall consider below.

...However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother's life, is applied to her organism (though the child's death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked. Moralists agree that we are not always prohibited from doing what is lawful in itself, though evil consequences may follow which we do not desire. The good effects of our acts are then directly intended, and the regretted evil consequences are reluctantly permitted to follow because we cannot avoid them. The evil thus permitted is said to be indirectly intended. It is not imputed to us provided four conditions are verified, namely:

    That we do not wish the evil effects, but make all reasonable efforts to avoid them;
    That the immediate effect be good in itself;
    That the evil is not made a means to obtain the good effect; for this would be to do evil that good might come of it — a procedure never allowed;
    That the good effect be as important at least as the evil effect.

All four conditions may be verified in treating or operating on a woman with child. The death of the child is not intended, and every reasonable precaution is taken to save its life; the immediate effect intended, the mother's life, is good — no harm is done to the child in order to save the mother — the saving of the mother's life is in itself as good as the saving of the child's life. Of course provision must be made for the child's spiritual as well as for its physical life, and if by the treatment or operation in question the child were to be deprived of Baptism, which it could receive if the operation were not performed, then the evil would be greater than the good consequences of the operation.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm
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« Reply #170 on: December 01, 2012, 11:33:59 PM »

I wonder...does shooting someone simply for breaking into our house fall into the category of murder or does that person need to purpose a serious threat for killing him to be justified?
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« Reply #171 on: December 02, 2012, 12:59:53 AM »

I find it interesting that, according to Mosaic Law (Exodus 22), abortion was only murder if the fetus was "formed". St Basil's assertion that the "formedness" of the embryo was irrelevant seems to mark a break with that line of thinking. My impression of what most people in the West today believe about abortion is that it is something along the lines of the Exodus prohibition: if an embryo is not obviously human in form (generally, if it's in the first trimester), people don't feel like aborting it is killing a person. After it starts to look like a human being around the second trimester, people generally object to an abortion. The general idea seems to be that personhood flows from consciousness, and it's not plausible to think that an embryo in its early stages is conscious. The traditional Christian view is that an unformed embryo is a person since it has the potential for consciousness.

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
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« Reply #172 on: December 02, 2012, 03:49:24 AM »

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  Wink
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« Reply #173 on: December 02, 2012, 04:02:36 AM »

I find it interesting that, according to Mosaic Law (Exodus 22), abortion was only murder if the fetus was "formed". St Basil's assertion that the "formedness" of the embryo was irrelevant seems to mark a break with that line of thinking. My impression of what most people in the West today believe about abortion is that it is something along the lines of the Exodus prohibition: if an embryo is not obviously human in form (generally, if it's in the first trimester), people don't feel like aborting it is killing a person. After it starts to look like a human being around the second trimester, people generally object to an abortion. The general idea seems to be that personhood flows from consciousness, and it's not plausible to think that an embryo in its early stages is conscious. The traditional Christian view is that an unformed embryo is a person since it has the potential for consciousness.

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
No, the traditional Christian view of an unformed embryo is a person since the person of Christ is celebrated at the Annunciation, and those of the Holy Theotokos and St. John the Forerunner on the feasts of their conceptions.
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« Reply #174 on: December 02, 2012, 04:32:04 AM »

I find it interesting that, according to Mosaic Law (Exodus 22), abortion was only murder if the fetus was "formed". St Basil's assertion that the "formedness" of the embryo was irrelevant seems to mark a break with that line of thinking. My impression of what most people in the West today believe about abortion is that it is something along the lines of the Exodus prohibition: if an embryo is not obviously human in form (generally, if it's in the first trimester), people don't feel like aborting it is killing a person. After it starts to look like a human being around the second trimester, people generally object to an abortion. The general idea seems to be that personhood flows from consciousness, and it's not plausible to think that an embryo in its early stages is conscious. The traditional Christian view is that an unformed embryo is a person since it has the potential for consciousness.

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
No, the traditional Christian view of an unformed embryo is a person since the person of Christ is celebrated at the Annunciation, and those of the Holy Theotokos and St. John the Forerunner on the feasts of their conceptions.

I think you missed a few words in your answer. Are you saying the traditional Christian view is that an unformed embryo is a person because we celebrate the Theotokos' conception? I suppose that works according to Church reasoning, since we typically argue for our positions on the grounds of precedent rather than principle, but a skeptic might ask why we celebrate the Theotokos' conception in the first place.
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« Reply #175 on: December 02, 2012, 04:33:09 AM »

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  Wink

What does "genetically viable" mean?
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« Reply #176 on: December 02, 2012, 04:45:29 AM »

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  Wink
It hardle matters if an embryo is viable.
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« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2012, 08:49:59 AM »

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  Wink
It hardle matters if an embryo is viable.

Not to you, I guess (whatever hardle means).
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« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2012, 09:34:34 AM »

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  Wink

What does "genetically viable" mean?

Simply put, a fertilized ovum (which by definition contains a fully complete DNA stand).
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« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2012, 09:45:20 AM »

I've come across arguments that the embryo is a person because it is genetically unique, but according to that reasoning, identical twins would participate in the same single person, which obviously can't be right.
I've not read the genetically unique argument before, but considering the embryo to be genetically viable seems a better point to assert. It also fits into the potential argument, or rather completes it.

Don't we sound a bit scholastic here?  Wink
It hardle matters if an embryo is viable.
Not to you, I guess (whatever hardle means).

It hardly matters when an embyro is "viable" or living, because it is an arbitrary determinant. Viability should be factored before it.
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