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Author Topic: Ukrainian cathedral rector to be Bishop of Skopelos  (Read 2928 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 16, 2012, 06:55:02 AM »

ISTANBUL. At meetings of the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Constantinople, held on 10 and 11 July, it was decided to establish a new cathedra - Bishop of Skopelos, vicar of Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico.
It is to be occupied by Archimandrite Pankraty Dubas, rector of the cathedral of the Ukrainian community in Chicago, reports "Romfeya."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxNews/message/16690
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2012, 09:40:05 AM »


He is a wise and humble man. 

Axios!

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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 12:37:39 AM »

Wasn't Archbishop Vsevolod (Maidansky) also of Scopelos?

BTW, why isn't the UOCUSA/Diaspora organizing its own eparchy in the region?
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 03:35:25 AM »

My guess is that Fr. Pankrati will be organizing an eparchy in Mexico, and perhaps elsewhere in the region, akin to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A, which will similarly be under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, just like the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada is likewise under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and a sister eparchy with the UOC-USA.  Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico's role will be similar to Archbishop Demetrios of America's role to the UOC-USA, an Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 06:15:59 AM »

It's my understanding that the UOCUSA is actually the 'Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the Diaspora' - if I'm not mistaken the eparchies in Oceania, South America, and Western Europe are attached to its local synod. Which is why this appointment confuses me - wouldn't it make more sense (Greek nationalism aside) to place Bishop-elect Pankratij under Archbishop Jeremiah (Ferens) down in Curitiba?

My guess is that Fr. Pankrati will be organizing an eparchy in Mexico, and perhaps elsewhere in the region, akin to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A, which will similarly be under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, just like the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada is likewise under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and a sister eparchy with the UOC-USA.  Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico's role will be similar to Archbishop Demetrios of America's role to the UOC-USA, an Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 06:55:44 AM »

AFAIK there are or used to be several Ukrainian Bishops in regular EP Dioceses. Why can't he be the another one?
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 10:33:39 AM »

It's my understanding that the UOCUSA is actually the 'Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the Diaspora' - if I'm not mistaken the eparchies in Oceania, South America, and Western Europe are attached to its local synod. Which is why this appointment confuses me - wouldn't it make more sense (Greek nationalism aside) to place Bishop-elect Pankratij under Archbishop Jeremiah (Ferens) down in Curitiba?

My guess is that Fr. Pankrati will be organizing an eparchy in Mexico, and perhaps elsewhere in the region, akin to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A, which will similarly be under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, just like the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada is likewise under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and a sister eparchy with the UOC-USA.  Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico's role will be similar to Archbishop Demetrios of America's role to the UOC-USA, an Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

I believe he was elected to assist Metropolitan Athenagoras in Mexico, not just to minister to Ukrainians.
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 11:49:39 AM »

IMO the curious thing is that why a Chicago priest is moved several k kilometres to became a bishop.
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 11:57:41 AM »


I have heard that he wished to become a bishop. 

The UOCofUSA had three bishops,  However, with the passing of Metropolitan Constantine, we currently have two.

The numbers of the UOCofUSA have diminished over the years, two bishops will suffice to meet the needs of the faithful, and there's no need to elect a third bishop.

Therefore, in order to be ordained as a bishop, Fr. Pankraty had to be open to a move.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 12:05:33 PM »

So why won't he be ordained for the UOC-USA but for the Greek Metropolis of Mexico? Why to move him there?
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2012, 03:31:39 PM »

Unfortunately although there may be some Ukrainians located in Mexico and Central America, there are no "Ukrainian" churches. There are parishes under the EP and Archimadrtite Pankratij will be a Bishop directly under the EP administering and tending to the EP faithful in Mexico and Central America. He will not be a bishop of the UOCUSA directly, but rather a bishop under the directive of the EP. Mnohalya Lita and Axios
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2012, 03:47:32 PM »

I don;t understand why "unfortunately".
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2012, 03:52:31 PM »

Unfortunately there are no Ukrainian churches, no Ukrainian parishes.
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2012, 03:54:20 PM »

IMO it's good EP resigns from creating multiple ethnic jurisdictions on the same territory and gathers parishes of many ethnicities within one diocese.
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2012, 04:11:49 PM »

Why?
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2012, 04:39:09 PM »

One town, one bishop or something like that.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2012, 04:44:06 PM »


Yeah, I remember reading something about that.

However, you have to admit that North America, and to a degree Central and South America are a completely different situation than the rest of the world, when it comes to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2012, 04:46:15 PM »

It's good when finally someone starts to fix it, isn't it?
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »

Michal,

Do you think the Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs, Russians, Greeks, Etc unite into one church as well?
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2012, 04:50:47 PM »

It's good when finally someone starts to fix it, isn't it?

It's not necessarily broken....and if it isn't broken, why fix it?
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2012, 04:51:46 PM »

Yes but not in the way it should be done.

You can enter a house thought the window but you have doors for that.
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2012, 05:02:10 PM »


As I said....neither is the land in the U.S, etc...."like it should be" to fit those canons.
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2012, 06:25:40 PM »

Wait, why would the bishop of an island in the Aegean go to Mexico?
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2012, 06:26:35 PM »


You go where you are needed.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2012, 07:22:17 PM »


Yeah, I remember reading something about that.

However, you have to admit that North America, and to a degree Central and South America are a completely different situation than the rest of the world, when it comes to Orthodoxy.



Oh, we do have jurisdiction chaos in Western Europe, too. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2012, 11:21:34 PM »


You go where you are needed.  Wink

"Skopelos" is an inactive see of the Church of Constantinople and indicates that the bishop assigned to the see, is an auxiliary bishop, while a bishop by ordination, who is directed in his episcopal work by another hierarch, he represents the ruling bishop under whose authority he is.
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« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2012, 10:04:50 AM »


You go where you are needed.  Wink

"Skopelos" is an inactive see of the Church of Constantinople and indicates that the bishop assigned to the see, is an auxiliary bishop, while a bishop by ordination, who is directed in his episcopal work by another hierarch, he represents the ruling bishop under whose authority he is.

It doesn't always mean an 'auxiliary bishop' within the scope of the EP's organizational structure. For example, the hierarchs of the UOC-USA and ACROD have been 'titular' bishops of this or that inactive see within the Church of Constantinople. The late Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD was technically NOT the Bishop of Johnstown, PA, but rather the Bishop of Amissos under whose omophorion was placed the Carpatho-Russian Diocese its clergy, faithful and property. His predecessor, the late Bishop John, was Bishop of Nyssa. This is so in that Johnstown is geographically within the territory of the GOA's Metropolis of Pittsburgh and the range of ACROD parishes (and those of the UOC-USA) extend into other Metropolises. However, within his diocese such a Bishop has full authority to govern and 'rule' in accordance with the terms of the Tomos establishing said entity. Such bishops are not subordinate to the local Greek Metropolis and its ruling Bishop, but rather are accountable to the Patriarch through his American Exarch - again, not in his capacity as Archbishop of America for the GOA, but in his authority as Exarch of the Ecumenical Throne. I believe that the MP has a similar set-up for its Patriarchal parishes and their Bishop within the United States.

Now, if all of that didn't make your head spin, you get an A+ in Introduction to Byzantine Structures of Authority. Who says the RC's are the only ones who are 'legalistic'?  Wink Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2012, 05:00:38 PM »

It sounds rather like second-class citizenship unfortunately :-/. (Both having to communicate with the Patriarchate through the local head of the Greek Orthodox Church and the titular sees when Greek ruling bishops are given local sees.) To each their own though!

The patriarchal Russian Orthodox parishes in Canada and the USA are 'representations' (so to speak) of the Moscow Patriarchate to the OCA, and their hierarchs belong to titular sees because they're auxiliaries of the patriarch (not at all ruling bishops) and report directly to him. (The ROCOR situation is another situation entirely given the history there.)


You go where you are needed.  Wink

"Skopelos" is an inactive see of the Church of Constantinople and indicates that the bishop assigned to the see, is an auxiliary bishop, while a bishop by ordination, who is directed in his episcopal work by another hierarch, he represents the ruling bishop under whose authority he is.

It doesn't always mean an 'auxiliary bishop' within the scope of the EP's organizational structure. For example, the hierarchs of the UOC-USA and ACROD have been 'titular' bishops of this or that inactive see within the Church of Constantinople. The late Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD was technically NOT the Bishop of Johnstown, PA, but rather the Bishop of Amissos under whose omophorion was placed the Carpatho-Russian Diocese its clergy, faithful and property. His predecessor, the late Bishop John, was Bishop of Nyssa. This is so in that Johnstown is geographically within the territory of the GOA's Metropolis of Pittsburgh and the range of ACROD parishes (and those of the UOC-USA) extend into other Metropolises. However, within his diocese such a Bishop has full authority to govern and 'rule' in accordance with the terms of the Tomos establishing said entity. Such bishops are not subordinate to the local Greek Metropolis and its ruling Bishop, but rather are accountable to the Patriarch through his American Exarch - again, not in his capacity as Archbishop of America for the GOA, but in his authority as Exarch of the Ecumenical Throne. I believe that the MP has a similar set-up for its Patriarchal parishes and their Bishop within the United States.

Now, if all of that didn't make your head spin, you get an A+ in Introduction to Byzantine Structures of Authority. Who says the RC's are the only ones who are 'legalistic'?  Wink Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2012, 05:10:08 PM »

One town, one bishop or something like that.

Great canon. However, this new bishop is not a diocesan bishop but a vicar or auxiliary bishop.
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2012, 05:14:20 PM »

One town, one bishop or something like that.

Great canon. However, this new bishop is not a diocesan bishop but a vicar or auxiliary bishop.

Metropolitan Athenagoras is da bishop.
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2012, 06:48:06 PM »

It sounds rather like second-class citizenship unfortunately :-/. (Both having to communicate with the Patriarchate through the local head of the Greek Orthodox Church and the titular sees when Greek ruling bishops are given local sees.) To each their own though!

The patriarchal Russian Orthodox parishes in Canada and the USA are 'representations' (so to speak) of the Moscow Patriarchate to the OCA, and their hierarchs belong to titular sees because they're auxiliaries of the patriarch (not at all ruling bishops) and report directly to him. (The ROCOR situation is another situation entirely given the history there.)


You go where you are needed.  Wink

"Skopelos" is an inactive see of the Church of Constantinople and indicates that the bishop assigned to the see, is an auxiliary bishop, while a bishop by ordination, who is directed in his episcopal work by another hierarch, he represents the ruling bishop under whose authority he is.

It doesn't always mean an 'auxiliary bishop' within the scope of the EP's organizational structure. For example, the hierarchs of the UOC-USA and ACROD have been 'titular' bishops of this or that inactive see within the Church of Constantinople. The late Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD was technically NOT the Bishop of Johnstown, PA, but rather the Bishop of Amissos under whose omophorion was placed the Carpatho-Russian Diocese its clergy, faithful and property. His predecessor, the late Bishop John, was Bishop of Nyssa. This is so in that Johnstown is geographically within the territory of the GOA's Metropolis of Pittsburgh and the range of ACROD parishes (and those of the UOC-USA) extend into other Metropolises. However, within his diocese such a Bishop has full authority to govern and 'rule' in accordance with the terms of the Tomos establishing said entity. Such bishops are not subordinate to the local Greek Metropolis and its ruling Bishop, but rather are accountable to the Patriarch through his American Exarch - again, not in his capacity as Archbishop of America for the GOA, but in his authority as Exarch of the Ecumenical Throne. I believe that the MP has a similar set-up for its Patriarchal parishes and their Bishop within the United States.

Now, if all of that didn't make your head spin, you get an A+ in Introduction to Byzantine Structures of Authority. Who says the RC's are the only ones who are 'legalistic'?  Wink Cheesy

Form over substance....in reality, it works the same way.....In both cases, the sitting Bishop here in the US is the 'ruler' over the parishes under his omophor.
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2012, 08:08:22 PM »

One town, one bishop or something like that.

Great canon. However, this new bishop is not a diocesan bishop but a vicar or auxiliary bishop.

Metropolitan Athenagoras is da bishop.

Axios! This is truly wonderful and welcome news for the diocese.

It appears the website has not been updated but His Eminence title is now Archbishop ATHENAGORUS.  

Quote
Con gran alegría les informamos, que después de la petición de Su Eminencia el Arzobispo Athenágoras, Su Toda Santidad el Patriarca Ecuménico Bartolomé I, con el Santo y Sagrado  Sínodo del Patriarcado Ecuménico de Constantinopla, reunidos en su sesión sinodal del día martes 10 de Julio de 2012, en la Sede Patriarcal, eligieron al Reverendísimo Archimandrita PANCRATIOS DUBAS, párroco de la Catedral Ucraniana en la Ciudad de Chicago, Estados Unidos de América, como Obispo Auxiliar de Su Eminencia el Arzobispo Athenágoras, con el título de Obispo de Skopelos.

Oficina de la Santa Metrópolis de México.
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2012, 12:26:34 AM »





One town, one bishop or something like that.


Great canon. However, this new bishop is not a diocesan bishop but a vicar or auxiliary bishop.


Metropolitan Athenagoras is da bishop.


Axios! This is truly wonderful and welcome news for the diocese.

It appears the website has not been updated but His Eminence title is now Archbishop ATHENAGORUS.  



Quote
Con gran alegría les informamos, que después de la petición de Su Eminencia el Arzobispo Athenágoras, Su Toda Santidad el Patriarca Ecuménico Bartolomé I, con el Santo y Sagrado  Sínodo del Patriarcado Ecuménico de Constantinopla, reunidos en su sesión sinodal del día martes 10 de Julio de 2012, en la Sede Patriarcal, eligieron al Reverendísimo Archimandrita PANCRATIOS DUBAS, párroco de la Catedral Ucraniana en la Ciudad de Chicago, Estados Unidos de América, como Obispo Auxiliar de Su Eminencia el Arzobispo Athenágoras, con el título de Obispo de Skopelos.

Oficina de la Santa Metrópolis de México.
Dado en México, a 15 de Julio de 2012


No, you haven't read the earlier posts.  "Archbishop Athenagoras" is the reference to the ruling bishop of the Holy Metropolis of Central America; it is a reference to Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico City and Central America.  (He is an American and served in the Holy Archdiocese of America as Fr. Athenagoras Anesti, prior to his episcopal ordination.)

As noted in the original post, Fr. Pankrati Duban will be assigned to the Titular See if Scopelos, a see of the Church of Constantinople that was de-activated.  Thus, he will not be a ruling bishop, but will assist Metropolitan Athenagoras and serve as the Metropolis' Vicar for Ukrainian Orthodox. Thus, the new bishop will be subordinate to the Metropolitan of Mexico City, serving both as an assistant to Metropolitan Athenagoras and as the Vicar for the Ukrainian Orthodox Christians in Mexico and Central America.
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2012, 12:33:38 AM »

Greetings Basil,

I think you misunderstood what I am saying. Metropolitan ATHENAGORUS'S new title is Archbishop ATHENAGORUS. He is my Archbishop. I was not referring to the newly elected auxiliary bishop PANCRATIOS. In other words, the correct title is now Archbishop and not Metropolitan. It is not my place to say what the duties of Bishop PANCRATIOS will be but I can assure you they will not be for Ukrainians only. I am sure bishop PANCRATIOS will be assisting Archbishop ATHENAGORUS throughout His diocese, which is quite large and diverse. His diocese also includes the Islands of the Caribbean, Venezuela, and Columbia. Glory be to God for this wonderful news!
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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2012, 01:09:12 AM »

Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.
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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2012, 01:15:27 AM »

I thought there were only a handful of actual archbishops in the Greek-style churches? (The Archbishops of Cyprus, Athens, Tirana, Crete, New York...)

Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.
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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2012, 01:22:25 AM »

I thought there were only a handful of actual archbishops in the Greek-style churches? (The Archbishops of Cyprus, Athens, Tirana, Crete, New York...)

Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.

"Thyateira and Great Britain," and "Australia," too, Father.  I'm guessing it has something to do with having a auxiliary bishop, but that wouldn't explain the Metropolitan of Chicago, who has an auxiliary bishop.  Maybe someone else familiar with Greek practice can help here.
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2012, 01:24:26 AM »

It is the same structure as the GOA. Metropolitano is Metropolitan in Spanish. Archbishop is a honorary title which means Primate. This is why Archbishop ATHENAGORUS heads the Episcopal Assembly for South America. I'm not trying to split hairs but it is proper to say Archbishop now. Just as it is proper to honor Archbishop Demetrios of the GOA with His proper title.


Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.

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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2012, 01:26:15 AM »

I'm neither a monk nor a clergyman :-). Thanks anyways!

Perhaps it an honor attached to the specific hierarchs? (Do the Greeks have such a system or is that purely a northern Slav/OCA thing?)

I thought there were only a handful of actual archbishops in the Greek-style churches? (The Archbishops of Cyprus, Athens, Tirana, Crete, New York...)

Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.

"Thyateira and Great Britain," and "Australia," too, Father.  I'm guessing it has something to do with having a auxiliary bishop, but that wouldn't explain the Metropolitan of Chicago, who has an auxiliary bishop.  Maybe someone else familiar with Greek practice can help here.
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2012, 01:28:37 AM »

His archdiocese isn't divided into metropolises, so what synod does he head that he is considered a primate? (The episcopal assemblies are all well and good, but they're not [yet] synods.)

It is the same structure as the GOA. Metropolitano is Metropolitan in Spanish. Archbishop is a honorary title which means Primate. This is why Archbishop ATHENAGORUS heads the Episcopal Assembly for Central and South America. I'm not trying to split hairs but it is proper to say Archbishop now. Just as it is proper to honor Archbishop Demetrios of the GOA with His proper title.


Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.


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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2012, 01:33:24 AM »

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/11/south-american-episcopal-assembly-meets.html

In accordance with a decision by the IV Pan-Orthodox Preconciliar Conference held in Chambesy, Switzerland, from November 2-4, 2011, the 2nd Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of South America was held in Buenos Aires...

Quote inserted to make it compatible with our link posting policy - MK.
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2012, 03:49:38 AM »

It is the same structure as the GOA. Metropolitano is Metropolitan in Spanish. Archbishop is a honorary title which means Primate. This is why Archbishop ATHENAGORUS heads the Episcopal Assembly for South America. I'm not trying to split hairs but it is proper to say Archbishop now. Just as it is proper to honor Archbishop Demetrios of the GOA with His proper title.


Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.



I don't know, but I'll add this to our discusion, after the GOAA bishops were elevated to the dignity of "metropolitan," due to the new Constitutional Charter of 2003, the GOAA parishes were advised that the hierarch of our new metropolis', is to be addressed liturgically as "Our Archbishop..."  The metropolitans are to be referred to as "Our Archbishop"  at the appropriate petition or place in the Divine Services of the Church.  Huh, ?
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2012, 07:50:38 AM »

I see Metropolitan Tarasius is referred to as an "archbishop" when he is just a metropolitan (http://www.ec-patr.org/hierarchs/show.php?lang=gr&id=57), so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get from this :-).

And looking at the Constantinople Patriarchate's website (should have done this before now!) Metropolitan Athenagoras is also referenced as a metropolitan: http://www.ec-patr.org/hierarchs/show.php?lang=gr&id=33

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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2012, 07:54:24 AM »

I'd always assumed it was an honor thing within a metropolitan's diocese - the Greeks' hierarch in Ethiopia was commemorated as an "archbishop" at the services as well, though he was only a metropolitan.

It is the same structure as the GOA. Metropolitano is Metropolitan in Spanish. Archbishop is a honorary title which means Primate. This is why Archbishop ATHENAGORUS heads the Episcopal Assembly for South America. I'm not trying to split hairs but it is proper to say Archbishop now. Just as it is proper to honor Archbishop Demetrios of the GOA with His proper title.


Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.



I don't know, but I'll add this to our discusion, after the GOAA bishops were elevated to the dignity of "metropolitan," due to the new Constitutional Charter of 2003, the GOAA parishes were advised that the hierarch of our new metropolis', is to be addressed liturgically as "Our Archbishop..."  The metropolitans are to be referred to as "Our Archbishop"  at the appropriate petition or place in the Divine Services of the Church.  Huh, ?
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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2012, 10:35:20 AM »


Well, all I can say is that I truly appreciate being able to call our Metropolitan, Archbishop, or Bishop "Vladyko"....and not worry about offending either one!

Grin
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2012, 12:32:58 PM »

I'd always assumed it was an honor thing within a metropolitan's diocese - the Greeks' hierarch in Ethiopia was commemorated as an "archbishop" at the services as well, though he was only a metropolitan.

It is the same structure as the GOA. Metropolitano is Metropolitan in Spanish. Archbishop is a honorary title which means Primate. This is why Archbishop ATHENAGORUS heads the Episcopal Assembly for South America. I'm not trying to split hairs but it is proper to say Archbishop now. Just as it is proper to honor Archbishop Demetrios of the GOA with His proper title.


Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.



I don't know, but I'll add this to our discusion, after the GOAA bishops were elevated to the dignity of "metropolitan," due to the new Constitutional Charter of 2003, the GOAA parishes were advised that the hierarch of our new metropolis', is to be addressed liturgically as "Our Archbishop..."  The metropolitans are to be referred to as "Our Archbishop"  at the appropriate petition or place in the Divine Services of the Church.  Huh, ?

Metropolitan Athenagoras heads the Episcopal Assembly of Central America because the rules for the episcopal assemblies call for them to be headed by the ranking bishop according to the dyptics, among the hierarchs in the region, and he is the Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch, the "First Throne" in honor of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2012, 12:34:04 PM »

What about Archbishops Tarasios or Jeremiah?
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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2012, 12:46:03 PM »

Metropolitan Tarasios of Buenos Aries, another American citizen, is in the South American Episcopal Assembly.  (I don't know who Archbishop Jeremiah is, sorry.)

Again, though I don't not know for sure, I think these Ecumenical Patriarchate metropolitans are only using the title "Archbishop" because "Metropolitan" is not a commonly understood title among the general, non-Orthodox, in these lands that are so overwhelmingly dominated by Roman Catholicism.  I've not seen anything from the Ecumenical Patriarchate that their titles have been changed.

Likewise, not in anything official, I notice Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh uses "Metropolitan-Bishop" on his facebook page, probably to explain his title for the general public. 
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« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2012, 12:50:55 PM »

Metropolitan Tarasios of Buenos Aries, another American citizen, is in the South American Episcopal Assembly.  (I don't know who Archbishop Jeremiah is, sorry.)

Archbishop Jeremiah

Why don't he or Abp Tarasios preside the Assembly?
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« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2012, 12:59:24 PM »

The four Antiochian Metropolitans in Latin America (Antonios, Sergios, Damaskinos and Silouan) are also often called "Archbishops" in Spanish, although in reality their proper title is "Metropolitan", as currently the Antiochian Patriarchate has only two hishops, who hold the title of "Archbishop" - Niphon of Philippopolis and Joseph of Los Angeles. So I think that the terms are used interchangeably in Latin America.
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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2012, 01:05:09 PM »

Metropolitan Tarasios of Buenos Aries, another American citizen, is in the South American Episcopal Assembly.  (I don't know who Archbishop Jeremiah is, sorry.)

Archbishop Jeremiah

Why don't he or Abp Tarasios preside the Assembly?

I thought Metropolitan Tarasios does preside over the South American Episcopal Assembly.  It's probably a seniority matter, and there isn't a provision for dual presiding hierarchs.
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« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2012, 01:10:16 PM »

Metropolitan Athenagoras heads the Episcopal Assembly of Central America

There is no such thing.
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« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2012, 01:21:20 PM »

I stand corrected, sorry; Central America is not a region unto itself for an episcopal assembly.  So, regarding your Reply no. 46, isn't Metropolitan Tarasios the presiding hierarch of the South American Episcopal Assembly?
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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2012, 01:31:58 PM »

No, it is presided by Archbishop ATHENAGORUS.

I stand corrected, sorry; Central America is not a region unto itself for an episcopal assembly.  So, regarding your Reply no. 46, isn't Metropolitan Tarasios the presiding hierarch of the South American Episcopal Assembly?
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« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2012, 11:12:29 PM »

The ecumenical who now? ;-)

But yes, I know (the non-existence of a Central American Assembly aside of course).

I'd always assumed it was an honor thing within a metropolitan's diocese - the Greeks' hierarch in Ethiopia was commemorated as an "archbishop" at the services as well, though he was only a metropolitan.

It is the same structure as the GOA. Metropolitano is Metropolitan in Spanish. Archbishop is a honorary title which means Primate. This is why Archbishop ATHENAGORUS heads the Episcopal Assembly for South America. I'm not trying to split hairs but it is proper to say Archbishop now. Just as it is proper to honor Archbishop Demetrios of the GOA with His proper title.


Oh, I apologize, Father. You're correct, I misunderstood your post, which is an interesting change.  I wonder though, if they're not just using "archbishop" in Spanish, as the title "metropolitan" isn't understood, outside of Orthodox circles, even though the Pope of Rome is a metropolitan, too.



I don't know, but I'll add this to our discusion, after the GOAA bishops were elevated to the dignity of "metropolitan," due to the new Constitutional Charter of 2003, the GOAA parishes were advised that the hierarch of our new metropolis', is to be addressed liturgically as "Our Archbishop..."  The metropolitans are to be referred to as "Our Archbishop"  at the appropriate petition or place in the Divine Services of the Church.  Huh, ?

Metropolitan Athenagoras heads the Episcopal Assembly of Central America because the rules for the episcopal assemblies call for them to be headed by the ranking bishop according to the dyptics, among the hierarchs in the region, and he is the Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch, the "First Throne" in honor of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2012, 11:17:22 PM »

I would assume seniority - Metropolitan Athenagoras was consecrated in 1982 (according to the Patriarchate's website anyways) and Metropolitan Tarasius was consecrated in 2001. Archbishop Jeremiah isn't Greek, but that aside he was consecrated in 1993, so Metropolitan Athenagoras still outranks him in seniority.

Metropolitan Tarasios of Buenos Aries, another American citizen, is in the South American Episcopal Assembly.  (I don't know who Archbishop Jeremiah is, sorry.)

Archbishop Jeremiah

Why don't he or Abp Tarasios preside the Assembly?
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« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2012, 12:07:26 AM »

To Bishop-elect Pankratij, Axios!

To the rest of you, you should enroll for the Spring Semester Dogmatics II class at St. Sophia Seminary in South Bound Brook this coming Spring, and all your questions about Metropolitans and Archbishops will be answered.   Wink
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« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2012, 12:12:36 AM »

BTW the classes are now available to be taken online for credit at the seminary.  Dogmatics I this fall wouldn't hurt either.  Still time to enroll. 
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« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2012, 01:21:06 AM »


Online?  Really, Father?

So, if I signed up, would I be able to claim I studied "at the seminary"?  Wink

For those who haven't had the honor to be personally acquainted with FatherHLL, let me tell you....he is one great instructor! 
You can learn a lot from him!

So, Father....online, huh?   Interesting....

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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2012, 01:33:22 AM »


Online?  Really, Father?

So, if I signed up, would I be able to claim I studied "at the seminary"?  Wink

For those who haven't had the honor to be personally acquainted with FatherHLL, let me tell you....he is one great instructor! 
You can learn a lot from him!

So, Father....online, huh?   Interesting....


Well Liza, in your case, you already have studied at the Seminary.  The Library adjacent to the Consistory is actually the Seminary Library, not the Consistory library, and is a seminary classroom (likewise, there are several classrooms in the Cultural center that are Seminary classrooms, not consistory rooms).  But for those who haven't had this opportunity, is a great opportunity!  For those who have, is still a great opportunity! 
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« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2012, 06:14:36 PM »

In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the title is used variously. In the Greek Churches archbishops are ranked above metropolitans in precedence, as in the case of Archbishop Demetrios of America, who is the Primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and primates of local churches below patriarchal rank are generally designated as archbishops. The reverse is true for the Slavic Churches (Russian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, etc. with exception of Serbian Orthodox Church and Macedonian Orthodox Church[2] where Archbishop is ranked above Metropolitans) and for the Romanian Orthodox Church, where metropolitans rank above archbishops and the title can be used for primatial sees as well as important cities.

In neither case do metropolitans have any special authority over other ruling bishops within their provinces. However, metropolitans (archbishops in the Greek Orthodox Church) are the chairmen of their respective synods of bishops, and have special privileges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_bishop


Archbishops and Metropolitans

The title of archbishop or metropolitan may be granted to a senior bishop, usually one who is in charge of a large ecclesiastical jurisdiction. He may or may not have provincial oversight of suffragan bishops. He may or may not have auxiliary bishops assisting him.

In the Slavonic and Antiochian traditions, a metropolitan outranks an archbishop. The reverse is the situation in the Greek tradition. The Antiochian tradition also uses the style metropolitan archbishop to differentiate from metropolitan bishops in the Greek tradition.

The change in the Greek tradition came about in later Greek history, because the diocesan bishops of ancient sees (which in the Greek diaspora include most) came to be styled metropolitans, short for "metropolitan bishops."

The Slavonic and Antiochian churches continue to follow the older tradition, where an archbishop is a senior bishop in charge of a major see, and a metropolitan is a bishop in charge of a province which may include a number of minor and/or major sees.

In the Greek tradition, all diocesan bishops of autocephalous churches such as the Church of Greece (the bishop of Patras being Metropolitan) are now metropolitans, and an archbishop holds his title as an indication of greater importance for whatever reason. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is the notable exception in the Greek practice where diocesan bishops carry the title of metropolitan. In other churches under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate such as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia the ruling bishop is the archbishop while the other bishops are auxiliary bishops with titles of the ancient sees.

Non-ruling bishops

A bishop who does not rule his own diocese is either a Patriarchal Vicar or an Auxiliary Bishop.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Archbishop

If this information is not correct maybe Fr. HLL will be willing to correct it.
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« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2012, 08:11:56 PM »

If I'm not mistaken the Bulgarian Orthodox Church follows Greek custom - if you check out a listing of their hierarchy there's the patriarch, the metropolitans (the ruling diocesan bishops), and the bishops (who are all auxiliaries).

In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the title is used variously. In the Greek Churches archbishops are ranked above metropolitans in precedence, as in the case of Archbishop Demetrios of America, who is the Primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and primates of local churches below patriarchal rank are generally designated as archbishops. The reverse is true for the Slavic Churches (Russian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, etc. with exception of Serbian Orthodox Church and Macedonian Orthodox Church[2] where Archbishop is ranked above Metropolitans) and for the Romanian Orthodox Church, where metropolitans rank above archbishops and the title can be used for primatial sees as well as important cities.

In neither case do metropolitans have any special authority over other ruling bishops within their provinces. However, metropolitans (archbishops in the Greek Orthodox Church) are the chairmen of their respective synods of bishops, and have special privileges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_bishop


Archbishops and Metropolitans

The title of archbishop or metropolitan may be granted to a senior bishop, usually one who is in charge of a large ecclesiastical jurisdiction. He may or may not have provincial oversight of suffragan bishops. He may or may not have auxiliary bishops assisting him.

In the Slavonic and Antiochian traditions, a metropolitan outranks an archbishop. The reverse is the situation in the Greek tradition. The Antiochian tradition also uses the style metropolitan archbishop to differentiate from metropolitan bishops in the Greek tradition.

The change in the Greek tradition came about in later Greek history, because the diocesan bishops of ancient sees (which in the Greek diaspora include most) came to be styled metropolitans, short for "metropolitan bishops."

The Slavonic and Antiochian churches continue to follow the older tradition, where an archbishop is a senior bishop in charge of a major see, and a metropolitan is a bishop in charge of a province which may include a number of minor and/or major sees.

In the Greek tradition, all diocesan bishops of autocephalous churches such as the Church of Greece (the bishop of Patras being Metropolitan) are now metropolitans, and an archbishop holds his title as an indication of greater importance for whatever reason. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is the notable exception in the Greek practice where diocesan bishops carry the title of metropolitan. In other churches under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate such as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia the ruling bishop is the archbishop while the other bishops are auxiliary bishops with titles of the ancient sees.

Non-ruling bishops

A bishop who does not rule his own diocese is either a Patriarchal Vicar or an Auxiliary Bishop.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Archbishop

If this information is not correct maybe Fr. HLL will be willing to correct it.
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« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2012, 08:19:27 PM »

If I'm not mistaken the Bulgarian Orthodox Church follows Greek custom - if you check out a listing of their hierarchy there's the patriarch, the metropolitans (the ruling diocesan bishops), and the bishops (who are all auxiliaries).

In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the title is used variously. In the Greek Churches archbishops are ranked above metropolitans in precedence, as in the case of Archbishop Demetrios of America, who is the Primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and primates of local churches below patriarchal rank are generally designated as archbishops. The reverse is true for the Slavic Churches (Russian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, etc. with exception of Serbian Orthodox Church and Macedonian Orthodox Church[2] where Archbishop is ranked above Metropolitans) and for the Romanian Orthodox Church, where metropolitans rank above archbishops and the title can be used for primatial sees as well as important cities.

In neither case do metropolitans have any special authority over other ruling bishops within their provinces. However, metropolitans (archbishops in the Greek Orthodox Church) are the chairmen of their respective synods of bishops, and have special privileges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_bishop


Archbishops and Metropolitans

The title of archbishop or metropolitan may be granted to a senior bishop, usually one who is in charge of a large ecclesiastical jurisdiction. He may or may not have provincial oversight of suffragan bishops. He may or may not have auxiliary bishops assisting him.

In the Slavonic and Antiochian traditions, a metropolitan outranks an archbishop. The reverse is the situation in the Greek tradition. The Antiochian tradition also uses the style metropolitan archbishop to differentiate from metropolitan bishops in the Greek tradition.

The change in the Greek tradition came about in later Greek history, because the diocesan bishops of ancient sees (which in the Greek diaspora include most) came to be styled metropolitans, short for "metropolitan bishops."

The Slavonic and Antiochian churches continue to follow the older tradition, where an archbishop is a senior bishop in charge of a major see, and a metropolitan is a bishop in charge of a province which may include a number of minor and/or major sees.

In the Greek tradition, all diocesan bishops of autocephalous churches such as the Church of Greece (the bishop of Patras being Metropolitan) are now metropolitans, and an archbishop holds his title as an indication of greater importance for whatever reason. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is the notable exception in the Greek practice where diocesan bishops carry the title of metropolitan. In other churches under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate such as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia the ruling bishop is the archbishop while the other bishops are auxiliary bishops with titles of the ancient sees.

Non-ruling bishops

A bishop who does not rule his own diocese is either a Patriarchal Vicar or an Auxiliary Bishop.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Archbishop

If this information is not correct maybe Fr. HLL will be willing to correct it.

And Jerusalem follows supposedly "Slavic" custom. 
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« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2012, 08:52:30 PM »

CORRECTION TO REPLY NO. 60, last paragraph of "Archbishops and Metropolitans."

Since the implementation of the 2003 Constitutional Charter of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, the diocesan bishops are elevated to the dignity of "metropolitan."
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2012, 01:35:22 AM »

And Jerusalem follows supposedly "Slavic" custom. 

Don't you mean the Antiochians?
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« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2012, 02:42:11 AM »

If I'm not mistaken the Bulgarian Orthodox Church follows Greek custom - if you check out a listing of their hierarchy there's the patriarch, the metropolitans (the ruling diocesan bishops), and the bishops (who are all auxiliaries).

Yes, that's right. In the Bulgarian Orthodox Church all the diocesan bishops are Metropolitans, while bishops are auxiliaries with ancient titular sees.
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« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2012, 03:05:44 AM »

If I'm not mistaken the Bulgarian Orthodox Church follows Greek custom - if you check out a listing of their hierarchy there's the patriarch, the metropolitans (the ruling diocesan bishops), and the bishops (who are all auxiliaries).

In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the title is used variously. In the Greek Churches archbishops are ranked above metropolitans in precedence, as in the case of Archbishop Demetrios of America, who is the Primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and primates of local churches below patriarchal rank are generally designated as archbishops. The reverse is true for the Slavic Churches (Russian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, etc. with exception of Serbian Orthodox Church and Macedonian Orthodox Church[2] where Archbishop is ranked above Metropolitans) and for the Romanian Orthodox Church, where metropolitans rank above archbishops and the title can be used for primatial sees as well as important cities.

In neither case do metropolitans have any special authority over other ruling bishops within their provinces. However, metropolitans (archbishops in the Greek Orthodox Church) are the chairmen of their respective synods of bishops, and have special privileges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_bishop


Archbishops and Metropolitans

The title of archbishop or metropolitan may be granted to a senior bishop, usually one who is in charge of a large ecclesiastical jurisdiction. He may or may not have provincial oversight of suffragan bishops. He may or may not have auxiliary bishops assisting him.

In the Slavonic and Antiochian traditions, a metropolitan outranks an archbishop. The reverse is the situation in the Greek tradition. The Antiochian tradition also uses the style metropolitan archbishop to differentiate from metropolitan bishops in the Greek tradition.

The change in the Greek tradition came about in later Greek history, because the diocesan bishops of ancient sees (which in the Greek diaspora include most) came to be styled metropolitans, short for "metropolitan bishops."

The Slavonic and Antiochian churches continue to follow the older tradition, where an archbishop is a senior bishop in charge of a major see, and a metropolitan is a bishop in charge of a province which may include a number of minor and/or major sees.

In the Greek tradition, all diocesan bishops of autocephalous churches such as the Church of Greece (the bishop of Patras being Metropolitan) are now metropolitans, and an archbishop holds his title as an indication of greater importance for whatever reason. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is the notable exception in the Greek practice where diocesan bishops carry the title of metropolitan. In other churches under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate such as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia the ruling bishop is the archbishop while the other bishops are auxiliary bishops with titles of the ancient sees.

Non-ruling bishops

A bishop who does not rule his own diocese is either a Patriarchal Vicar or an Auxiliary Bishop.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Archbishop

If this information is not correct maybe Fr. HLL will be willing to correct it.

And Jerusalem follows supposedly "Slavic" custom.  

Some, and I emphasize, some, of the variations in practice emanate from two Typicons that exist in the church today, and for the past 112+ years.  Jerusalem still follows the Typicon which originated in Jerusalem, as do the Churches of Russia, Georgia, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Poland, Czech and Slovak Lands, Finland, and Japan.  In the late 19th century, the Ecumenical Patriarchate modified that typicon, developing a new one which it follows, along with the Churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Cyprus, Greece, and Albania; (there is some mix in the Albanian Church due to its history with the predecessor of the OCA, the Metropolia).  The Antiochian O. C. Archdiocese of North America follows the revised Typicon, but you may notice some Russian practices, including onion shaped domes, which are remnants of their association with the Russia Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia, predecessor of the OCA, prior to the 1920's.  (I may be wrong about a few of the churches noted above.)
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« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2012, 03:22:55 AM »

Some, and I emphasize, some, of the variations in practice emanate from two Typicons that exist in the church today, and for the past 112+ years.  Jerusalem still follows the Typicon which originated in Jerusalem, as do the Churches of Russia, Georgia, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Poland, Czech and Slovak Lands, Finland, and Japan.  In the late 19th century, the Ecumenical Patriarchate modified that typicon, developing a new one which it follows, along with the Churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Cyprus, Greece, and Albania; (there is some mix in the Albanian Church due to its history with the predecessor of the OCA, the Metropolia).  The Antiochian O. C. Archdiocese of North America follows the revised Typicon, but you may notice some Russian practices, including onion shaped domes, which are remnants of their association with the Russia Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia, predecessor of the OCA, prior to the 1920's.  (I may be wrong about a few of the churches noted above.)

I think there is also some mix in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. My impression is that it's closer to the Greek use, than to the Russian.
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« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2012, 03:35:49 PM »

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/11/south-american-episcopal-assembly-meets.html

In accordance with a decision by the IV Pan-Orthodox Preconciliar Conference held in Chambesy, Switzerland, from November 2-4, 2011, the 2nd Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of South America was held in Buenos Aires...

Quote inserted to make it compatible with our link posting policy - MK.

Hey! That's my doing on that blog Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2012, 04:03:23 PM »

And Jerusalem follows supposedly "Slavic" custom. 

Don't you mean the Antiochians?

No, I mean the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, where Metropolitans are senior to Archbishops, the seniormost being the elder Metropolitan of Caesaria:
http://jerusalem-patriarchate.info/en/agia_iera_syn.htm#

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« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2012, 04:21:30 PM »

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the Church of Russia follows the Church of Jerusalem's Typicon and practices.

The Church of Antioch follows the Church of Constantinople's Typicon.
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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2012, 04:43:38 PM »

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the Church of Russia follows the Church of Jerusalem's Typicon and practices.

The Church of Antioch follows the Church of Constantinople's Typicon.

Argumentative about what?
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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2012, 04:52:19 PM »

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the Church of Russia follows the Church of Jerusalem's Typicon and practices.

The Church of Antioch follows the Church of Constantinople's Typicon.

Regardless, before you get argumentative:

1.  The Typikon used has nothing to do with diptychal and synodic order determined by a primatial church.
2.  The Russian Church follows the older Typikon of the Monastery of St. Sabbas of Jerusalem, not the Typikon of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.  While the two are closer than to Violakis, this has nothing to do with
3.  The Church of Antioch follows the Violakis Typikon, and does happen to have structure closer to Constantinople, but the one does not follow from the other in either direction
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« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2012, 05:26:21 PM »

Ok, I'll let it go, Father; you certainly know more about this than I know.
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« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2012, 05:41:57 PM »

BTW, Antioch is in "flux" with the arrangement of Bishops, going back to a dispute between Met. George (Khodre) and other members of the Synod.  Met. George was correct in his argument about synodical structure and aux. bishops, but temporarily "lost" due to the situation in America (Met. Philip vs. the local Synod in America).  For the sake of peace current arrangements are sort of "in between."   
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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2012, 08:03:20 PM »

So, Fr. HLL,

Is it proper, in the Greek tradition, to address an archbishop only as archbishop or may you use metropolitan as well?
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« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2012, 12:26:34 AM »

All of this gets rather tricky.

Even back at Chalcedon they were battling a frequent use of Metropolitan as a titular title.  But it became popular in some places.  Originally the title was that of a Metropolitan-Archbishop, shortened to Metropolitan, referring to the Primate of a Provincial Synod.

We have today in "northern Greek" practice (and new world practice):

1.  Diocesan Bishops with the title Metropolitan, making them Metropolitan-Bishop *(an interesting story on this from Met. Maximos of Blessed memory)
2.  Metropolitan-Archbishops (+Philip of Antiochican Archdiocese is Metropolitan-Archbishop).  This is what the canons speak of as "canonical Metropolitan," whereas a diocesan bishop with the title is an "honorary" Metropolitan canonically speaking.  This is the primate of the provincial Synod, and alone is "canonical Metropolitan," that is primate of provincial synod. 

In "new world" languages such as English and Spanish, "Archbishop" is more common, and this is a consideration for usage (the same consideration for "Archdiocese" vs. "Metropolia" in Slavic jurisdictions)

 

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« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2012, 12:30:44 AM »

Back to Met. Maximos (of blessed memory) story to me:

HAH wanted there to be in America a traditional structure of a provincial (eparchial) Synod of Bishops (with title "Bishop" as originally foreseen in canons).  However, when the American Bishops went overseas, they were treated as being auxiliaries because they did not have the title "Metropolitan" as the prevailing custom is oversees.  So HAH gave them all title of Metropolitan so they were treated as equals by the diocesans overseas.   
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« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2012, 12:35:26 AM »

To answer question from above, can a Metropolitan-Archbishop be called just "Archbishop."  Yes, if that is his choice and fits in with the polity and also the linguistic necessities around him.  But have to be careful about the language.  In Spanish or English maybe but in Greek not unless Holy Synod gave it to him.  Example:  The Patriarch of Jerusalem's title on official website reads differently in English than it does in Greek.  That is because word and cultural equivelency is different in different languages at different periods of time (especially ours). 
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« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2012, 03:51:44 AM »

Back to Met. Maximos (of blessed memory) story to me:

HAH wanted there to be in America a traditional structure of a provincial (eparchial) Synod of Bishops (with title "Bishop" as originally foreseen in canons).  However, when the American Bishops went overseas, they were treated as being auxiliaries because they did not have the title "Metropolitan" as the prevailing custom is oversees.  So HAH gave them all title of Metropolitan so they were treated as equals by the diocesans overseas.   

If you are referring to the +Maximos who is the former Metropolitan of Pittsburgh, he is alive and resides in a retirement facility, Father.  A different GOAA Pittsburgh area priest visits him daily.  Thankfully, Metropolitan Savas is very respectful of his predecessor. Metropolitan Maximos told me too, a similar story, but didn't tell me what His All Holiness' intentions were.  Frankly, I wish they had gone that route, no one, not even most Orthodox Christians, know what a "Metropolitan" is.
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« Reply #80 on: July 26, 2012, 07:43:27 AM »

Where in North America is "archdiocese" used in place of "митрополия-metropolia/metropolitanate" in a Slavic jurisdiction? I know the OCA's Dioceses of Pittsburgh and Washington call themselves "archdioceses" for some reason, but neither is a митрополия...

All of this gets rather tricky.

Even back at Chalcedon they were battling a frequent use of Metropolitan as a titular title.  But it became popular in some places.  Originally the title was that of a Metropolitan-Archbishop, shortened to Metropolitan, referring to the Primate of a Provincial Synod.

We have today in "northern Greek" practice (and new world practice):

1.  Diocesan Bishops with the title Metropolitan, making them Metropolitan-Bishop *(an interesting story on this from Met. Maximos of Blessed memory)
2.  Metropolitan-Archbishops (+Philip of Antiochican Archdiocese is Metropolitan-Archbishop).  This is what the canons speak of as "canonical Metropolitan," whereas a diocesan bishop with the title is an "honorary" Metropolitan canonically speaking.  This is the primate of the provincial Synod, and alone is "canonical Metropolitan," that is primate of provincial synod. 

In "new world" languages such as English and Spanish, "Archbishop" is more common, and this is a consideration for usage (the same consideration for "Archdiocese" vs. "Metropolia" in Slavic jurisdictions)

 


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« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2012, 12:11:31 PM »

Where in North America is "archdiocese" used in place of "митрополия-metropolia/metropolitanate" in a Slavic jurisdiction? I know the OCA's Dioceses of Pittsburgh and Washington call themselves "archdioceses" for some reason, but neither is a митрополия...

All of this gets rather tricky.

Even back at Chalcedon they were battling a frequent use of Metropolitan as a titular title.  But it became popular in some places.  Originally the title was that of a Metropolitan-Archbishop, shortened to Metropolitan, referring to the Primate of a Provincial Synod.

We have today in "northern Greek" practice (and new world practice):

1.  Diocesan Bishops with the title Metropolitan, making them Metropolitan-Bishop *(an interesting story on this from Met. Maximos of Blessed memory)
2.  Metropolitan-Archbishops (+Philip of Antiochican Archdiocese is Metropolitan-Archbishop).  This is what the canons speak of as "canonical Metropolitan," whereas a diocesan bishop with the title is an "honorary" Metropolitan canonically speaking.  This is the primate of the provincial Synod, and alone is "canonical Metropolitan," that is primate of provincial synod. 

In "new world" languages such as English and Spanish, "Archbishop" is more common, and this is a consideration for usage (the same consideration for "Archdiocese" vs. "Metropolia" in Slavic jurisdictions)

 



The UOC of USA, for example, uses the terms interchangeably.  See for example, the website (Home tab, then Archdiocese tab):
http://uocofusa.org/


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« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2012, 06:55:45 PM »

It's used twice on the history page, and one of those uses is the "Archdiocese" tab itself :-). As you like though!

Where in North America is "archdiocese" used in place of "митрополия-metropolia/metropolitanate" in a Slavic jurisdiction? I know the OCA's Dioceses of Pittsburgh and Washington call themselves "archdioceses" for some reason, but neither is a митрополия...

All of this gets rather tricky.

Even back at Chalcedon they were battling a frequent use of Metropolitan as a titular title.  But it became popular in some places.  Originally the title was that of a Metropolitan-Archbishop, shortened to Metropolitan, referring to the Primate of a Provincial Synod.

We have today in "northern Greek" practice (and new world practice):

1.  Diocesan Bishops with the title Metropolitan, making them Metropolitan-Bishop *(an interesting story on this from Met. Maximos of Blessed memory)
2.  Metropolitan-Archbishops (+Philip of Antiochican Archdiocese is Metropolitan-Archbishop).  This is what the canons speak of as "canonical Metropolitan," whereas a diocesan bishop with the title is an "honorary" Metropolitan canonically speaking.  This is the primate of the provincial Synod, and alone is "canonical Metropolitan," that is primate of provincial synod. 

In "new world" languages such as English and Spanish, "Archbishop" is more common, and this is a consideration for usage (the same consideration for "Archdiocese" vs. "Metropolia" in Slavic jurisdictions)

 



The UOC of USA, for example, uses the terms interchangeably.  See for example, the website (Home tab, then Archdiocese tab):
http://uocofusa.org/



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« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2012, 04:54:39 AM »

He's been ordained.

http://www.uocofusa.org/news_120911_4.html
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« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2012, 08:59:43 AM »



Axios!
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