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Author Topic: The Angel of YHWH in the OT: Who is He?  (Read 1716 times) Average Rating: 0
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Arnaud
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« on: July 15, 2012, 08:48:51 PM »

"And an angel of the Lord appeared to him in flaming fire out of the bush, and he sees that the bush burns with fire, but the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will go near and see this great sight, why the bush is not consumed. And when the Lord saw that he drew nigh to see, the Lord called him out of the bush, saying, Moses, Moses; and he said, What is it? And he said, Draw not nigh hither: loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraam, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and Moses turned away his face, for he was afraid to gaze at God." Exodus 3:2-6 [Septuagint]

Aggelos (ang'-el-os) means messenger/envoy. And then this "messenger" of God appears to Moses in the burning bush and speaks to him as if he is himself God, saying "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraam, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", not precising that he is just speaking as a spokesman on behalf of God. Moses understood that God even was there appearing, since the text says "Moses turned away his face, for he was afraid to gaze at God." Beside this, the place where this messenger appears becomes sacred.

Now, Is not this messenger of God the pre-incarnate Logos? I know many Church Fathers interpreted him as such, but not all. According to Wikipedia St Augustine would have said: "The angel is correctly termed an angel if we consider him himself, but equally correctly is he termed 'the Lord' because God dwells in him."

I don't really know what to think. What does the Oriental Orthodox say, in general?

Thanks.

*And watch this lecture of Michael Heiser << http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMdxqoEsg0k >>

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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 08:49:51 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2012, 07:31:20 AM »

I was taught that anytime you see the Angel of the Lord, it is the pre-incarnate Christ.

PP
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2012, 08:03:42 AM »

According to the OSB - Which can be found on google books. I have it in hard copy for the purpose of commentary on the verses. It reads God the Word revealed himself to moses in the burning bush to forecast his coming Incarnation. John of Damascus, Gregory Theologian....etc all comment to all this regarding it to Jesus.

In Jewish Kabbal The Angel of YHWH is Metatron, Metatron who sits at the right hand of God  Wink All was a mystery till the Messiah was revealed and all was made clear.
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 04:19:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was taught that anytime you see the Angel of the Lord, it is the pre-incarnate Christ.

PP

I've read both interpretations within the Ethiopian Church.  Some fathers have interpreted instances of the Angel of the Lord as an apparition or vision of the presence of God.  However, other fathers also ascribe this position to Saint Michael the Archangel.  Our Synaxarium attributes Angel Michael as being that forth person in the fire with Ananiah, Azariah, and Mishael Wink

Quote
TAHISAS 12
(December 21)
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT,
ONE GOD. AMEN.
On this day is celebrated the festival of the glorious angel, Michael the Archangel. On this
day God sent him to the city of Babylon, and he was the fourth person with the Three
Children, Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, in the fiery furnace, when Nebuchadnezzar, the
King of Babylon, threw them into it. And the flames rose up to a height of nine and forty
cubits and consumed those who attended to the fire. And Michael beat out the fire with his
staff, and extinguished it round about the Three Children and delivered them, and [the fire]
did not touch them. And he made the inside of the furnace to be as cool as the dew at the
dawn of day, and in it they praised God, saying, “Blessed be the Lord God of our fathers!
Praised and exalted is He for ever.” And Michael prophesied seven times that after seven
hundred years Christ should be born; and after this the Three Children praised God, saying,
“Let every servant of God praise God.” And he prophesied seven and thirty times that
Christ should live upon the earth three and thirty years, and for this reason our Fathers the
Apostles ordained that people should celebrate the festival of Michael the Archangel.
Salutation to Michael.

I tried to find the icon online but I couldn't, its one of my all-time favorites, as it reminds us to let God's Angels quiet the burning pain of fear and anger and sin in our hearts when we are feeling stressed by the flames of this life.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 05:02:40 PM »

In Exod 3 it is a Theophany of God, the presence of God, in which form?who knows.. The Word translated as Angel can also mean, Messenger, Agent.

In other parts it is possible that it just is one of the angels of the Lord, even Michael.
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 09:25:11 PM »

According to the OSB - Which can be found on google books. I have it in hard copy for the purpose of commentary on the verses. It reads God the Word revealed himself to moses in the burning bush to forecast his coming Incarnation. John of Damascus, Gregory Theologian....etc all comment to all this regarding it to Jesus.

In Jewish Kabbal The Angel of YHWH is Metatron, Metatron who sits at the right hand of God  Wink All was a mystery till the Messiah was revealed and all was made clear.
Do you mind citing a direct source so we can further delve into the subject?
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 04:10:05 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was taught that anytime you see the Angel of the Lord, it is the pre-incarnate Christ.

PP

I've read both interpretations within the Ethiopian Church.  Some fathers have interpreted instances of the Angel of the Lord as an apparition or vision of the presence of God.  However, other fathers also ascribe this position to Saint Michael the Archangel.  Our Synaxarium attributes Angel Michael as being that forth person in the fire with Ananiah, Azariah, and Mishael Wink

Quote
TAHISAS 12
(December 21)
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT,
ONE GOD. AMEN.
On this day is celebrated the festival of the glorious angel, Michael the Archangel. On this
day God sent him to the city of Babylon, and he was the fourth person with the Three
Children, Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, in the fiery furnace, when Nebuchadnezzar, the
King of Babylon, threw them into it. And the flames rose up to a height of nine and forty
cubits and consumed those who attended to the fire. And Michael beat out the fire with his
staff, and extinguished it round about the Three Children and delivered them, and [the fire]
did not touch them. And he made the inside of the furnace to be as cool as the dew at the
dawn of day, and in it they praised God, saying, “Blessed be the Lord God of our fathers!
Praised and exalted is He for ever.” And Michael prophesied seven times that after seven
hundred years Christ should be born; and after this the Three Children praised God, saying,
“Let every servant of God praise God.” And he prophesied seven and thirty times that
Christ should live upon the earth three and thirty years, and for this reason our Fathers the
Apostles ordained that people should celebrate the festival of Michael the Archangel.
Salutation to Michael.

I tried to find the icon online but I couldn't, its one of my all-time favorites, as it reminds us to let God's Angels quiet the burning pain of fear and anger and sin in our hearts when we are feeling stressed by the flames of this life.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Below is an icon of Kedus Mikael with Shedrak, Meshak, and Abednego. Also is an icon of Him represented as a protecter/guardian/defender of the Israelites at their coming out of Egypt. And yet you see, it seems to me that the Holy Scriptures suggest that the angel who was with them at their coming out of Egypt on their road to the promised land, was that "Angel of YHWH" even.

So I don't know  Huh



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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 04:42:04 AM »

I was taught that anytime you see the Angel of the Lord, it is the pre-incarnate Christ.

PP

The Septuagint often says "an angel of the Lord.." when he is first mentioned; then after eventually it says "the angel of the Lord.." referring to Him.

For instance:

"And an angel of the Lord came, and sat down under the fir tree, which was in Ephratha in the land of Joas father of Esdri; and Gedeon his son was threshing wheat in a wine-press in order to escape from the face of Madiam. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty in strength." Judges 6:11,12.

"And an angel of the Lord found her by the fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Sur. And the angel of the Lord said to her, Agar, Sara's maid, whence comest thou, and wither goest thou? and she said, I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sara." Genesis 16:7,8.

But maybe it depends of the Septuagint translations. In the translations based on the masoretic text however it all the time directly introduces Him as "the angel of the Lord" not "an angel of the Lord."

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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 11:21:18 PM »

--Bump--

Could someone provide Patristic writings relevant to this topic?
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 09:25:50 PM »

--Bump--

Could someone provide Patristic writings relevant to this topic?
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 07:26:41 AM »

Quotes about Abraham and the banquet:

Severian of Gabbala: "Christ appeared to you, O excellent one, escorted by two angels, and by your hospitality you became a companion of God and of angels… Christ appeared to you in the appearance of a man, revealing to you the mysteries of his divine and saving sojourn on earth… Therefore you recognised God's mediator, the Son who was to be known between two living beings or animals."

Justin Martyr: "Moses, therefore, that blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that the one who was seen by Abraham at the oak of Mamre was God, accompanied by two angels, who were sent, for the condemnation of Sodom, by another, namely by the One who always remains above the heavens, who has never been seen by any human being, and who of himself holds converse with none, whom we term the Creator of all things, and the Father."

St. Ambrosius: "The Lord Christ is probably coming in the person of the stranger or the poor, having said: "I was in prison and you came to Me; I was naked and you clothed Me" (Matthew 25: 36)."

St. Jerome: "The true temple for Christ is the believer’s soul; So let us adorn it; :Let us offer Him clothes, and gifts; Let us welcome Christ in him ! What would be the use of walls adorned with jewels, if Christ in the poor, is in danger of death because of hunger ?."

Moses and the bush:

Justin Martyr: "Neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, ever saw the Father and Ineffable Lord of all things…; but the One who according to his will is both God his Son and his Angel ministering to his will, whom he determined should be born as man of a Virgin, and who once even became fire when he conversed with Moses from the bush."

------

Patristic teaching holds that ‘the Angel of the Lord’ is one of the many names of God the Word in the Old Testament. It is, in fact, one of the earliest Christological titles. More often than not, ‘the Angel of the Lord’ refers not to one of the bodiless powers of heaven, but to the pre-incarnate Christ. Angel means messenger, and in the Old Testament an “angel” was not necessarily one of the heavenly court – it could also be a human being. The Word is God’s messenger par excellence. Thus St Justin Martyr repeatedly refers to Christ as an Angel. The primary source for Justin and other Church Fathers was probably the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 9:6:

“For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Angel of Great Counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him”.

And yet Justin, despite his copious use of the term ‘Angel of the Lord’ or ‘Angel of Great Counsel’, never attempts to clarify that the Angel is the Word of God, for that Christ was called Angel was obvious to anyone who was familiar with the Septuagint Isaiah 9:6. Since it was widely acknowledged that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Messiah, the title “Angel of Great Counsel” refers also to Christ, and thus it also follows that Christ is the Angel of the Lord who appears to the Prophets of the Old Testament (e.g. Genesis 15–22; Genesis 28–35; Exodus 3, Joshua 5-6).

Justin argued from the appearances of the Angel in the Old Testament that this Angel is God Himself. This is explained by Günther Juncker in his treatment of the subject:

‘It does not take Justin long to point out from the Old Testament appearances of the Angel of the Lord that this Angel is fully God. Invariably when this particular Angel is seen, those who have seen him declare that they have seen God and are amazed that they have lived. In numerous places this Angel speaks in the first person as Lord and God, receives worship and sacrifices, and makes the very ground on which he stands holy; yet in other places he speaks of God in the third person and is functionally subordinate since, as Angel, he is sent by God to deliver a message from God. When these passages were combined with others (e.g. Gen 1:26; 24 19:24; Ps 45:6–7; and 110:1) which on the surface seem to speak of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, Justin’s argument became irrefutable. Thus in a key passage which mentions the title Angel four times in relation to the Old Testament theophanies, Justin can hardly be held guilty of an overstatement when he says of Christ that “He is called God, He is God, and shall always be God” (Dial. 58)’

[“Christ As Angel: The Reclamation Of A Primitive Title,” Trinity Journal 15:2 (Fall 1994): 221–250.]

In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin writes:

‘He who is called God and appeared to the patriarchs is called both Angel and Lord, in order that from this you may understand Him to be minister to the Father of all things...  He…  appeared as a man to Abraham, and… wrestled in human form with Jacob’

Sources: http://www.pravmir.com/article_1224.html and Father Tadros Malaty
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2012, 12:04:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quotes about Abraham and the banquet:

Severian of Gabbala: "Christ appeared to you, O excellent one, escorted by two angels, and by your hospitality you became a companion of God and of angels… Christ appeared to you in the appearance of a man, revealing to you the mysteries of his divine and saving sojourn on earth… Therefore you recognised God's mediator, the Son who was to be known between two living beings or animals."

Justin Martyr: "Moses, therefore, that blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that the one who was seen by Abraham at the oak of Mamre was God, accompanied by two angels, who were sent, for the condemnation of Sodom, by another, namely by the One who always remains above the heavens, who has never been seen by any human being, and who of himself holds converse with none, whom we term the Creator of all things, and the Father."

St. Ambrosius: "The Lord Christ is probably coming in the person of the stranger or the poor, having said: "I was in prison and you came to Me; I was naked and you clothed Me" (Matthew 25: 36)."

St. Jerome: "The true temple for Christ is the believer’s soul; So let us adorn it; :Let us offer Him clothes, and gifts; Let us welcome Christ in him ! What would be the use of walls adorned with jewels, if Christ in the poor, is in danger of death because of hunger ?."

Moses and the bush:

Justin Martyr: "Neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, ever saw the Father and Ineffable Lord of all things…; but the One who according to his will is both God his Son and his Angel ministering to his will, whom he determined should be born as man of a Virgin, and who once even became fire when he conversed with Moses from the bush."

------

Patristic teaching holds that ‘the Angel of the Lord’ is one of the many names of God the Word in the Old Testament. It is, in fact, one of the earliest Christological titles. More often than not, ‘the Angel of the Lord’ refers not to one of the bodiless powers of heaven, but to the pre-incarnate Christ. Angel means messenger, and in the Old Testament an “angel” was not necessarily one of the heavenly court – it could also be a human being. The Word is God’s messenger par excellence. Thus St Justin Martyr repeatedly refers to Christ as an Angel. The primary source for Justin and other Church Fathers was probably the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 9:6:

“For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Angel of Great Counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him”.

And yet Justin, despite his copious use of the term ‘Angel of the Lord’ or ‘Angel of Great Counsel’, never attempts to clarify that the Angel is the Word of God, for that Christ was called Angel was obvious to anyone who was familiar with the Septuagint Isaiah 9:6. Since it was widely acknowledged that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Messiah, the title “Angel of Great Counsel” refers also to Christ, and thus it also follows that Christ is the Angel of the Lord who appears to the Prophets of the Old Testament (e.g. Genesis 15–22; Genesis 28–35; Exodus 3, Joshua 5-6).

Justin argued from the appearances of the Angel in the Old Testament that this Angel is God Himself. This is explained by Günther Juncker in his treatment of the subject:

‘It does not take Justin long to point out from the Old Testament appearances of the Angel of the Lord that this Angel is fully God. Invariably when this particular Angel is seen, those who have seen him declare that they have seen God and are amazed that they have lived. In numerous places this Angel speaks in the first person as Lord and God, receives worship and sacrifices, and makes the very ground on which he stands holy; yet in other places he speaks of God in the third person and is functionally subordinate since, as Angel, he is sent by God to deliver a message from God. When these passages were combined with others (e.g. Gen 1:26; 24 19:24; Ps 45:6–7; and 110:1) which on the surface seem to speak of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, Justin’s argument became irrefutable. Thus in a key passage which mentions the title Angel four times in relation to the Old Testament theophanies, Justin can hardly be held guilty of an overstatement when he says of Christ that “He is called God, He is God, and shall always be God” (Dial. 58)’

[“Christ As Angel: The Reclamation Of A Primitive Title,” Trinity Journal 15:2 (Fall 1994): 221–250.]

In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin writes:

‘He who is called God and appeared to the patriarchs is called both Angel and Lord, in order that from this you may understand Him to be minister to the Father of all things...  He…  appeared as a man to Abraham, and… wrestled in human form with Jacob’

Sources: http://www.pravmir.com/article_1224.html and Father Tadros Malaty

I am curious as to the specifically Ethiopia Fathers opinion as to this matter, because in the Ethiopian Synaxarium the Angel of the Lord in the Book of Daniel who saved the Three from the Fiery Furnace is identified as an Archangel, the Angel of the Lord that appeared to Abraham on the way to Sodom was indeed a Theophany of Christ the Word.

stay blessed,

habte selassie
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 02:42:39 PM »

Thank you very much, Suryoyutho.
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 08:40:48 PM »

When the Lord appeared to Abraham at the oak of memra, was it planned by the Lord to appear at memra ? Cause memra in Hebrew means "Word" / "Logos".

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra

What is everyone else's thoughts on this ?.
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 09:08:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When the Lord appeared to Abraham at the oak of memra, was it planned by the Lord to appear at memra ? Cause memra in Hebrew means "Word" / "Logos".

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra

What is everyone else's thoughts on this ?.

Wow, that was a ridiculously great read.  Very thought provoking and reflective..

Quote
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

—Biblical Data:
In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. xv. 1; Num. xii. 6, xxiii. 5; I Sam. iii. 21; Amos v. 1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. xxxiii. 6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. xxxiii. 9, cxlvii. 18, cxlviii. Cool. In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. cxix. 89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. ix. 7 [A. V. 8], lv. 11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. cvii. 20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. cxlvii. 15).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra

My only question is how far back such aspects of the Word in Hebrew are in the manuscripts, and how much is a post-Christian revision.  See, if in the original Old Testament writings before the Septuagint the Theophany and instances of God's revelations and Grace were this Hebrew mermra or the Word, that is similar to the Fathers of the Church's interpretation of the Scriptures.  So we could have developed this understanding in a direct continuity from the Jewish biblical scholars who came into the Church during the first few centuries.  However, if this is medieval Hebrew like the current oldest manuscripts, then we can't be sure that the idea that the Word/Logos from the Septuagint and the Gospels in the Christian Tradition as a manifestation of God's Grace, God's interaction with the world, didn't influence later Jewish theological thought.  So it is a chicken or the egg question, did this concept of the Word/Logos as God in-action in the Old Testament Scriptures is a pre-Christian Jewish theology which influenced the Church Fathers, or is this a uniquely Christian insight which later inspired post-Christianity Jews?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 09:09:34 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 09:50:38 PM »

Bizarre comment moved here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47696.msg827039.html#new
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psalm110
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 10:50:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When the Lord appeared to Abraham at the oak of memra, was it planned by the Lord to appear at memra ? Cause memra in Hebrew means "Word" / "Logos".

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra

What is everyone else's thoughts on this ?.

Wow, that was a ridiculously great read.  Very thought provoking and reflective..

Quote
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

—Biblical Data:
In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. xv. 1; Num. xii. 6, xxiii. 5; I Sam. iii. 21; Amos v. 1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. xxxiii. 6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. xxxiii. 9, cxlvii. 18, cxlviii. Cool. In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. cxix. 89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. ix. 7 [A. V. 8], lv. 11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. cvii. 20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. cxlvii. 15).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra

My only question is how far back such aspects of the Word in Hebrew are in the manuscripts, and how much is a post-Christian revision.  See, if in the original Old Testament writings before the Septuagint the Theophany and instances of God's revelations and Grace were this Hebrew mermra or the Word, that is similar to the Fathers of the Church's interpretation of the Scriptures.  So we could have developed this understanding in a direct continuity from the Jewish biblical scholars who came into the Church during the first few centuries.  However, if this is medieval Hebrew like the current oldest manuscripts, then we can't be sure that the idea that the Word/Logos from the Septuagint and the Gospels in the Christian Tradition as a manifestation of God's Grace, God's interaction with the world, didn't influence later Jewish theological thought.  So it is a chicken or the egg question, did this concept of the Word/Logos as God in-action in the Old Testament Scriptures is a pre-Christian Jewish theology which influenced the Church Fathers, or is this a uniquely Christian insight which later inspired post-Christianity Jews?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Thanks for your opinion, it is a very thought provoking artical. I might have to do some more research at home as I am on my iPhone right now hard to search the web effectively. This website helps tracing the word "Memra" http://www.ed-nelson.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=57
I wonder what The Greek Lxx and Peshitta translate this word into there lanaguages.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 10:57:22 PM by psalm110 » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2012, 01:15:41 PM »

Interesting article to read: http://oneinmessiah.net/TargumMemraTheWordOfGod.htm
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The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered !
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2012, 04:33:42 PM »

I thought this was interesting (in regards to the teaching of the first two Ecumenical councils).
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.18.en.augustine_unknowingly_rejects_the_doctrine.00.htm (John S. Romanides site)
Quote
quote:
"In Part II we present texts of Fathers of the First and Second Ecumenical Councils which identify Christ the Logos of the New Testament with the Angel of Great Council and Lord/Yaweh of Glory of the Old Testament Who appeared to His friends the prophets of the Old Testaments. In this way the reader may see for himself whether Augustine belongs to the same tradition as the Fathers of the First and Second Ecumenical Councils. It is up to the reader to compare the texts of Part I and Part II to see whether Augustine teaches the same about the Lord Yaweh of Glory as the Fathers of the First and Second Ecumenical Councils. Thus they will see for themselves that the heresies of Barlaam the Calabrian condemned at the Ninth Ecumenical Council are those of Augustine himself"



as well as

http://www.romanity.org/htm/ro4enfm.htm (ORTHODOX AND ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CONSULTATION)
Quote
quote
"Such documents as "   Confessing the One Faith"   are distortions of our Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in its present form. It must be completed by the fact that "   God, whom no one has ever seen"   (John 1:18), has indeed revealed Himself to the prophets of the Old Testament in His uncreated Messenger even before His incarnation. To see the Angel of the Lord is to see God Himself Who sends Him. "   The only begotten Son, He Who is in the bosom of the Father, He reveals."   As the prophets saw and heard God in His Messenger, so now also he who sees and hears His incarnate Messenger sees and hears God Himself. She who gave birth to Christ gave birth to God's Logos in the flesh. They who crucified Christ crucified the Logos Himself in the flesh. "   He who believes in me does not believe in me but in him who sent me, and he who sees me sees him who sent me."   (John 12:44-45). "   Lord, show us the Father... He who sees me has seen the Father."   (John 14:8-9). This identity between the uncreated Messenger of God in the Old Testament and the incarnate Logos in the New Testament is the key to a correct appreciation of the Three, Seven and Nine Ecumenical Councils (879, 1341) of the Orthodox Church."

 
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