Predominate Orthodox Church in America

[katherineofdixie]

Some Greeks may say to new members, "why don't you try that Russian Church across town?" even while their Priest welcomes you.

Or they may mean it because that church has services in English or a lot of converts. The sweet Greek Orthodox lady whose husband eventually became my husband's godfather suggested that we attend the OCA church, after we had been to their GOA parish. She said that she knew Greeks can sometimes be hard to take (! ) but she had met a some of the OCA people at a pan-Orthodox picnic, and there were a lot of converts. She thought that it would help us to meet people who had been down that road before us.
I didn't take her to mean that she didn't want us in her parish!

[LizaSymonenko]

2 Greek priests told me "Orthodoxy is not for Scandinavians, it is for Greeks, Arabs, and Slavs.".

Well yeah! You can't have just anyone becoming Orthodox, right?

Seriously, though, I've noticed that Orthodox never seem to tire of saying that Eastern Catholics should "come on home" etc, and yet Latin Catholics (which is to say, about 98% of Catholics) seem quite invisible to you guys. The "Orthodoxy is not for Scandinavians" thing doesn't seem any more surprising than that.

Dear Latin Catholic

Come on home!

In Christ

Justin

 

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

This is just me, of course, but I kind of think that other peoples' behavior in church, rude or otherwise, is none of my beeswax.

edited to emphasize, it's not others' lack of participation in the service that I have a problem with, but the prevention of my participation

I am with you on this.

[LizaSymonenko]

We have one parishioner who is VERY adamant on silence in church. 

He is soooooo against any noise in the church, that it's almost annoying.  I was once walking out to purchase a candle for my niece, when an elderly man grabbed my elbow and was asking me something.  This other man kept shooting darts at me....when it wasn't my fault....I could hardly ignore the old man.

At Vespers, we are lucky if we get 5 people to come.  One Saturday, a family showed up - mom, dad, and their kids.  One child was a toddler, and half way through began crying.  Mind you the church is almost empty.  The only people in the nave are me, my mom, that family and the "man".  The other guy is going nuts.  He's rolling his eyes.  He's sighing loudly.  He's shifting his weight from one foot to the other....  The dad takes the little girl and starts on a walk around the church to distract her....he goes up to the candles, to the icons....but, the child is still whimpering.  Probably sleepy.  The man can't stand it any longer....and marches over to the mother and loudly tells her to take the child OUT!...as he points to the door.  :-(

We had never saw that family in our church before.....and we never saw them after.

I had no problem hearing the priest, nor the hymns....what distracted me most, was the agitated man and his actions.

[Agabus]

Some Greeks may say to new members, "why don't you try that Russian Church across town?" even while their Priest welcomes you.

Or they may mean it because that church has services in English or a lot of converts. The sweet Greek Orthodox lady whose husband eventually became my husband's godfather suggested that we attend the OCA church, after we had been to their GOA parish. She said that she knew Greeks can sometimes be hard to take (! ) but she had met a some of the OCA people at a pan-Orthodox picnic, and there were a lot of converts. She thought that it would help us to meet people who had been down that road before us.
I didn't take her to mean that she didn't want us in her parish!

In a Greek parish I occasionally — only very occasionally —attend, the first time we went several parishioners greeted us quite warmly (most of them greeted us, actually – it’s quite small). At the coffee hour, one of the more social members came over and told us about the parish, and then proceeded to tell us of several people who had converted in the church and then gone to other jurisdictions; she understood, she said, because of the language issue.

She was also very determined to ensure we knew we were welcome to come back any time.

[mike]

I am Greek

That's something new for me.

I had a young Serbian kid tell me several weeks ago that he'd never met an "American Orthodox" before. He'd met Russians, Greeks and such... I wanted to shake him and tell him that he IS "American Orthodox", he ethnically may be Serbian, but he was born, baptized and raised here.

Thanks God his guardian angel protected him from being abused by you.

[Bigsinner]

We have one parishioner who is VERY adamant on silence in church. 

He is soooooo against any noise in the church, that it's almost annoying.  I was once walking out to purchase a candle for my niece, when an elderly man grabbed my elbow and was asking me something.  This other man kept shooting darts at me....when it wasn't my fault....I could hardly ignore the old man.

At Vespers, we are lucky if we get 5 people to come.  One Saturday, a family showed up - mom, dad, and their kids.  One child was a toddler, and half way through began crying.  Mind you the church is almost empty.  The only people in the nave are me, my mom, that family and the "man".  The other guy is going nuts.  He's rolling his eyes.  He's sighing loudly.  He's shifting his weight from one foot to the other....  The dad takes the little girl and starts on a walk around the church to distract her....he goes up to the candles, to the icons....but, the child is still whimpering.  Probably sleepy.  The man can't stand it any longer....and marches over to the mother and loudly tells her to take the child OUT!...as he points to the door.  :-(

We had never saw that family in our church before.....and we never saw them after.

I had no problem hearing the priest, nor the hymns....what distracted me most, was the agitated man and his actions.

Liza, I think we are much closer on this issue than you may realize.  Let me be clear about this:  I am not now, nor have I ever been that "agitated man" to which you are referring.     If I were there at vespers, you would have seen me as sympathetic towards the parents, rather than the opposite.  BTW, with one exception, our Vespers attendance is also in single digits.

Finally, on another point, I notice that you had no problem hearing/participating in the service (outside of the clearly non-charitable attitude of that "man").   This tells me that any occurrences never truly rose to the level of preventing your worshiping.  My post was not about random "distractions", but rather about sustained preventable noise which rose to (and stayed at) the level to overcome the electrically amplified priest.  I expect (or, at least, hope) that what I experienced is rather exceptional and outside of the experiences of you and most participants on this forum.   

[LizaSymonenko]

Oh, I agree with you, wholeheartedly.  There MUST be some respect when in church.  It's not a social gathering.  I didn't mean to suggest you were like the "agitated" man. 

...and I have HEARD that cacophony of noise, as well!  At my church it usually happens at the dismissal...when folks are marching forward to kiss the cross.  Sometimes, it's unbearable.  I understand service is technically "over"....however, we are still in the church.  Keep the outside voices for the outside. 

[88Devin12]

I am Greek

That's something new for me.

I had a young Serbian kid tell me several weeks ago that he'd never met an "American Orthodox" before. He'd met Russians, Greeks and such... I wanted to shake him and tell him that he IS "American Orthodox", he ethnically may be Serbian, but he was born, baptized and raised here.

Thanks God his guardian angel protected him from being abused by you.

I don't see how that constitutes abuse, especially when it was a light hearted, friendly conversation. Also when I say kid, we were only separated by 10 years.

I'm a person that doesn't believe in divisions like African American, Greek American, Russian American etc... You are an American citizen, you may be ethnically Greek or Serbian and God bless your background but American isn't a racial division and these divisions date from a time of real ethnic divisions and ghettos in our country.

I like to direct people to a statement by Morgan Freeman when asked why he doesn't want an African American (or black history) month. I'm away from the computer so I can't link it right now.

[mike]

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

[Bigsinner]

Devon, I think this is the one to which you were referring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

[88Devin12]

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

As I Said though, American isnt a racial definition, it is a nationality a citizenship.

Look at the Byzantines, they were ethnically Greek but considered and called themselves Romans. You can be a Greek ethnically, but you are an American.

When we have a unified church in America, they won't be Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox, they will be American Orthodox. You can be an American of Greek descent.

The kid I'm talking about doesn't speak a word of Serbian, was born raised and educated here and doesn't even have an accent. He is an American Orthodox Christian of Serbian descent.

[mike]

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

You are taking Devin the wrong way. There are many idioms in the States and he just used one to give more oomph to his statement. He did not mean that he would actually assault the kid.

[88Devin12]

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

Well he is an American citizen.

Being an American doesn't mean that you should assimilate and eat fatty foods at McDonalds, shop at Wal-Mart, watch American Football and forget all your ethnic heritage.

It's about combating phyletism, xenophobia and racism.

When I see a person of Mexican descent who is an American citizen, I dont think "oh that's a Mexican", I think "how wonderful it is that we Americans can be so diverse and accept so many cultures and still consider ourselves Americans".

If you look at the studies done by Alexei Krindatch, the American situation is nothing like over in Europe. It is nothing like what I experienced in Greece either. There is no official American language and no American race or color. If you are an American citizen, you're an American no matter your language or race.

I have lived with three foreign exchange students and every one of them could be an American and you wouldn't know the difference until they showed you their license or passport, that is what is great about our nation.

You don't just toss out your heritage for our modern "typical" American way of life (nor should they) but also one should not seek to segregate themselves from others based on their heritage.

[88Devin12]

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

You are taking Devin the wrong way. There are many idioms in the States and he just used one to give more oomph to his statement. He did not mean that he would actually assault the kid.

Yes, I apologize if it appeared like a threatening or violent statement, it was just an exaggerated idiom and the image I has was more of a friendly one.

[mike]

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

Well he is an American citizen.

Can't Serbians be American citizens?

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

You are taking Devin the wrong way. There are many idioms in the States and he just used one to give more oomph to his statement. He did not mean that he would actually assault the kid.

I understood him well. Adult chauvinists telling children that they must become Americans are bad enough.

[celticfan1888]

Can't speak for Norwegians, but I do know their food sucks.

No one in Norway actually eats lutefisk. Don't believe what the Minnesotans tell you :p

Don't really like it, but forced to because it is Christmas food. Meatcakes, Meatballs, Braised Fish, and Mutten Stew are delicious, and everyone loves the desserts!

I'm hungry now...

[celticfan1888]

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN. DUH, just like you are Polish, get over it.

[celticfan1888]

I am Greek

That's something new for me.

I had a young Serbian kid tell me several weeks ago that he'd never met an "American Orthodox" before. He'd met Russians, Greeks and such... I wanted to shake him and tell him that he IS "American Orthodox", he ethnically may be Serbian, but he was born, baptized and raised here.

Thanks God his guardian angel protected him from being abused by you.

I don't see how that constitutes abuse, especially when it was a light hearted, friendly conversation. Also when I say kid, we were only separated by 10 years.

I'm a person that doesn't believe in divisions like African American, Greek American, Russian American etc... You are an American citizen, you may be ethnically Greek or Serbian and God bless your background but American isn't a racial division and these divisions date from a time of real ethnic divisions and ghettos in our country.

I like to direct people to a statement by Morgan Freeman when asked why he doesn't want an African American (or black history) month. I'm away from the computer so I can't link it right now.

Because Michal likes to think he's a god on this forum, and I think he takes an opposite side just to shake people up

[mike]

If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN. DUH, just like you are Polish, get over it.

At least you don't force him to wear armbands with some fancy pictures (yet).

[88Devin12]

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

Well he is an American citizen.

Can't Serbians be American citizens?

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

You are taking Devin the wrong way. There are many idioms in the States and he just used one to give more oomph to his statement. He did not mean that he would actually assault the kid.

I understood him well. Adult chauvinists telling children that they must become Americans are bad enough.

What I'm saying is the Serbian Kid I was speaking about is already an American citizen. There isn't a reason to divide or distinguish between a Serbian American and an Anglo American or a Russian American and a Greek American. He and I are both simply Americans. He has Serbian ancestry, I have English, Scottish, Irish, Native American and Dutch ancestry. Yet both of us are simply Americans. That doesn't mean he has to "assimilate" and forget his Serbian background, in fact he can still retain it all and be simply an American.

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN. DUH, just like you are Polish, get over it.

I disagree celtic, I think the United States is different than most of Europe in that aspect. If my German friend moved to France and became a French citizen, I don't think that necessarily makes him French. Over there in Europe, nationality is more closely tied to ethnicity whether for good or for bad.

[Alpo]

If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

[mike]

What I'm saying is the Serbian Kid I was speaking about is already an American citizen. There isn't a reason to divide or distinguish between a Serbian American and an Anglo American or a Russian American and a Greek American. He and I are both simply Americans. He has Serbian ancestry, I have English, Scottish, Irish, Native American and Dutch ancestry. Yet both of us are simply Americans. That doesn't mean he has to "assimilate" and forget his Serbian background, in fact he can still retain it all and be simply an American.

But why? Why do you think he has to abandon his heritage and became "American"? Why can't he be a Serbian with American citizenship? Why do you interfere in his self-awareness?

[podkarpatska]

I am Greek

That's something new for me.

I had a young Serbian kid tell me several weeks ago that he'd never met an "American Orthodox" before. He'd met Russians, Greeks and such... I wanted to shake him and tell him that he IS "American Orthodox", he ethnically may be Serbian, but he was born, baptized and raised here.

Thanks God his guardian angel protected him from being abused by you.

I don't see how that constitutes abuse, especially when it was a light hearted, friendly conversation. Also when I say kid, we were only separated by 10 years.

I'm a person that doesn't believe in divisions like African American, Greek American, Russian American etc... You are an American citizen, you may be ethnically Greek or Serbian and God bless your background but American isn't a racial division and these divisions date from a time of real ethnic divisions and ghettos in our country.

I like to direct people to a statement by Morgan Freeman when asked why he doesn't want an African American (or black history) month. I'm away from the computer so I can't link it right now.

Because Michal likes to think he's a god on this forum, and I think he takes an opposite side just to shake people up

What you said about Michal being Polish, apparently because he lives in what is now drawn as Poland on the map and getting over it is offensive and ignorant. I want to reiterate what Second Chance said, before you apply American thinking and suggest to Michal that he is a Pole, you ought to learn -and accept a bit about European history. For example, few if any citizens of Her Majesty, Elizabeth II's Kingdom of Great Britain would self identify as being UK. They are Welsh, Scots, British etc... Likewise in country after country. Call a Slovak living in Prague a Czech, a Hungarian living in Uzhorod a Ukrainian, a Pole living in Medzilaborce a Slovak or call a Ukrainian a Russian because he lives in the Russian Federation and you will get punched in the face or at the very least provoke an argument - depending on where you are and what time of day it is!

You are right though that someone living in the United States whose family has been here for generations ought not to identify themselves first as an Italian, a German or a Serbian - or whatever. But that is not the case in Europe. I have no issue though with a person self-identifying themselves as being an Italian American, a German American etc.... or an American of Serbian, Greek etc... background.

[88Devin12]

If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

You could ask why should have the "Byzantines" of Greek descent called themselves Romans? (and that is how they identified themselves for well over 1,000 years)

[mike]

You are right though that someone living in the United States whose family has been here for generations ought not to identify themselves first as an Italian, a German or a Serbian - or whatever. But that is not the case in Europe.

What is the difference?

[88Devin12]

What I'm saying is the Serbian Kid I was speaking about is already an American citizen. There isn't a reason to divide or distinguish between a Serbian American and an Anglo American or a Russian American and a Greek American. He and I are both simply Americans. He has Serbian ancestry, I have English, Scottish, Irish, Native American and Dutch ancestry. Yet both of us are simply Americans. That doesn't mean he has to "assimilate" and forget his Serbian background, in fact he can still retain it all and be simply an American.

But why? Why do you think he has to abandon his heritage and became "American"? Why can't he be a Serbian with American citizenship? Why do you interfere in his self-awareness?

Michal, I said the exact opposite, I said he should not abandon his heritage. You can be an American and still retain your heritage.

I'm saying that segregating and differentiating yourself from other American citizens (who are equal with you in every way) based on your ethnicity is basically just xenophobia, racism and segregation. When this is applied to to the church, it then becomes heresy, phyletism.

[mike]

I'm saying that segregating and differentiating yourself from other American citizens (who are equal with you in every way) based on your ethnicity is basically just xenophobia, racism and segregation. When this is applied to to the church, it then becomes heresy, phyletism.

I'm saying that forcing veryone to become Americans is just xenophobia, racism, oppression of the weaker and disregard the rights of minorities. When this is applied to to the church, it then becomes heresy, phyletism.

[88Devin12]

I'm saying that segregating and differentiating yourself from other American citizens (who are equal with you in every way) based on your ethnicity is basically just xenophobia, racism and segregation. When this is applied to to the church, it then becomes heresy, phyletism.

I'm saying that forcing veryone to become Americans is just xenophobia, racism, oppression of the weaker and disregard the rights of minorities. When this is applied to to the church, it then becomes heresy, phyletism.

How am I forcing everyone to "become" Americans? As I said, he is an American citizen, therefore he, by definition, is American.

You cannot separate yourself from other people based on your race or ethnicity. As I said, American is not a race, nor is it an ethnicity.

The 14th Amendment: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

[podkarpatska]

You are right though that someone living in the United States whose family has been here for generations ought not to identify themselves first as an Italian, a German or a Serbian - or whatever. But that is not the case in Europe.

What is the difference?

It has much to do with American history, political and economic domination of the the United States, first by Great Britain from the 17th through the end of the 18th centuries and then by their descendants for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries and the history of American immigration patterns. We love to argue about what is meant by being 'American' and, frankly, we can't really agree on much - except in vague, almost emotional terms.

It is said that we are a 'melting pot' and like a vegetable stew, one often can't agree on the predominate flavor - is it a unique blend or should (or does) one vegetable remain with a stronger flavor. In other words, being American is subjective - unlike an objective identifier like being a Pole, a Slovak, an Italian or a Ukrainian or whatever....

[mike]

As I said, he is an American citizen, therefore he, by definition, is American.

That's where I do not see logical continuity.

As I said, American is not a race, nor is it an ethnicity.

So what it is? Religion?

[88Devin12]

You are right though that someone living in the United States whose family has been here for generations ought not to identify themselves first as an Italian, a German or a Serbian - or whatever. But that is not the case in Europe.

What is the difference?

It has much to do with American history, political and economic domination of the the United States, first by Great Britain from the 17th through the end of the 18th centuries and then by their descendants for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries and the history of American immigration patterns. We love to argue about what is meant by being 'American' and, frankly, we can't really agree on much - except in vague, almost emotional terms.

I keep going back to this example...

Sure, originally Roman denoted a specific ethnicity of people who were from a city called Roma. But with the Roman Empire, the definition of what it is to be "Roman" changed. St. Paul was a Roman, though he was of Jewish ethnicity. Same for many of the Roman Emperors later on whose base was Constantinople, they were Roman citizens though many were of Greek ethnicity. It didn't matter that they were of Greek ethnicity and that they spoke Greek, they still called themselves Romans.

The United States borrowed so many concepts from the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans. This idea of citizenship and being "American" despite whatever ethnicity you are is something that we borrowed from the ancient Romans.

[Alpo]

You could ask why should have the "Byzantines" of Greek descent called themselves Romans? (and that is how they identified themselves for well over 1,000 years)

I'm having a hunch that back in the days being a citizen of Roman empire wasn't the same thing as modern Nationalist identities based on modern Nation-states.

[88Devin12]

You could ask why should have the "Byzantines" of Greek descent called themselves Romans? (and that is how they identified themselves for well over 1,000 years)

I'm having a hunch that back in the days being a citizen of Roman empire wasn't the same thing as modern Nationalist identities based on modern Nation-states.

I think some of the inspiration for our nation's concept came from ancient Rome. Our founding fathers were greatly inspired by the ancient Greeks & Romans. Whether or not they were completely accurate in their assumptions about those ancient peoples is another discussion. That is one of the many reasons why our civic architecture looked like it did, and why our statues are often sculpted in Roman-esque style (like Washington as a Roman), or why our art was often painted with people in Roman-like clothing in Roman settings.

[mike]

<facepalm>

Are there any records of St. Paul praying to Roman gods? Taking part in Roman state celebrations? Attending circuses, gladiators' fights, charriot races?

[Peter J]

As I said, he is an American citizen, therefore he, by definition, is American.

I agree that American citizens are Americans, but I would like to point out that that doesn't mean it's wrong for them to call themselves Serbians, Greeks, Germans, etc.

I understood him well. Adult chauvinists telling children that they must become Americans are bad enough.

I'm afraid you've lost me here, Michał. What are you referring to?

[mike]

I'm afraid you've lost me here, Michał. What are you referring to?

I had a young Serbian kid tell me several weeks ago that he'd never met an "American Orthodox" before. He'd met Russians, Greeks and such... I wanted to shake him and tell him that he IS "American Orthodox", he ethnically may be Serbian, but he was born, baptized and raised here.

[katherineofdixie]

As I said, American is not a race, nor is it an ethnicity.

So what it is? Religion?

In a way. The dream of America as an idea, or ideal, the melting pot, the new start, the chance to re-invent yourself in a new world can be something like a civil religion. In this dream, which is part of the American culture, more or less, people choose to be Americans, hopefully without abandoning their ethnic heritage.

[mike]

Why do you persecute those who do not want to choose to become Americans?

[katherineofdixie]

Why do you persecute those who do not want to choose to become Americans?

Huh?

Well, if they don't want to choose to become Americans, as we say in the South, Delta is ready when they are.

[88Devin12]

<facepalm>

Are there any records of St. Paul praying to Roman gods? Taking part in Roman state celebrations? Attending circuses, gladiators' fights, charriot races?

Why would being a Roman citizen mean he would automatically pray to their gods, celebrate in pagan festivals and such?

Why does being an American citizen have to mean that you would be (going off stereotypes) overweight, a Protestant fundamentalist, watch Nascar & American football, eat at McDonalds daily and sit in front of a TV all day?

I know a man, a Greek man, who was born in Greece, but is an American citizen and is very proud of the fact that he is an American and calls himself an American. He celebrates both Greek independence and American independence. He embraces fully his Greek heritage (even beginning a Greek society in his city) but also completely embraces being an American and loves the fact that he can be an American of Greek descent and be considered the same as everyone else and enjoy his own culture while he also can freely enjoy the culture of others around him. He rejects the materialism and consumerism of our culture, but embraces our ideals. You can speak with him and understand that he believes that America owes a lot to Greece because of our ideals and concepts. When he and his society decided to celebrate oxi day, he invited everyone whether Greek or not, especially other Orthodox Christians.

I have two American friends, one from a Anglo/Celtic ancestry and the other of Russian ancestry (I think she is a new citizen, or is trying to become one). They also have a child together who was born here (and therefore is an American citizen). At their wedding they played both Russian music and Irish music. Yet both of them are Americans and don't separate themselves from each other or from others.

America is a melting pot, we are the largest experiment in diversity and equality ever attempted in a secular manner.

As a good explanation, here is the wikipedia entry for "Americans":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans
"Americans, or American people, are the citizens of the United States of America. The country is home to people of different national origins. As a result, Americans do not equate their nationality with ethnicity, but with citizenship. With the exception of the Native American population, nearly all Americans or their ancestors immigrated within the past five centuries."

[88Devin12]

Why do you persecute those who do not want to choose to become Americans?

Huh?

Well, if they don't want to choose to become Americans, as we say in the South, Delta is ready when they are.

Or they can stay as non-citizens. This is what ambassadors and their families are. This is what many people are who want to come here for a better life and send money to support their families back home. I don't knock them for not being Americans, that is their choice.

[genesisone]

Why do you persecute those who do not want to choose to become Americans?

Huh?

Well, if they don't want to choose to become Americans, as we say in the South, Delta is ready when they are.

What do you mean by "become Americans"? Do you mean acquire citizenship? take on certain cultural characteristics? but even that one is dicey - do you mean talk like a Texan or New Englander? go surfing in Hawaii or canoeing in Minnesota?

Please note - I'm not at all arguing with you - just trying to show how complicated this can be.

We Canadians deal with the same issues - and our situation may be even more complex given the mix, certainly not the blend, of French and English here. Yet, as with you, there's some sort of indefinable quality that "we" understand that somehow excludes "others".

I can see that someone from Europe in particular where citizenship, ethnicity, and culture pretty much overlap (obvious exceptions).

[mike]

So being American is only associated with the passport?

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