Author Topic: Predominate Orthodox Church in America  (Read 7081 times)

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Offline J Michael

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2012, 04:47:33 PM »
So being American is only associated with the passport?

No.  Many Americans do not have passports.  To a great extent it has to do with an attitude of identification with America (meaning the United States of America) as one's home, one's culture, one's citizenship.  Some of this is very difficult to define concisely, and as was said previously, has nothing to do with ethnicity.
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Offline mike

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #136 on: July 19, 2012, 04:53:50 PM »
How culture is not related to ethnicity?

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #137 on: July 19, 2012, 05:00:21 PM »
How culture is not related to ethnicity?

It is to a certain extent, but this is the distinctive American experience. There is also an overarching "American" culture. For example, you will see a group of second generation [insert immigrant group or ethnicity here]teenagers who are more "American" than they are [original ethnic group].
My American-born Greek friends complain that when they go to Greece they are treated like Americans!
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2012, 05:02:59 PM »
How culture is not related to ethnicity?

J Michael is spot on with this.  There are pockets of authentic ethnic culture throughout the U.S., often in cities or suburban enclaves.  There is also a decent amount of faux-ethnic culture, with families trying to re-establish ethnic ties.  But by in large, a lot of 'American culture' is not tied directly to ethnicity.

Edit: By the way, Michal, your current avatar is pure class. Love it!   
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:05:30 PM by Cognomen »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2012, 05:06:47 PM »
So being American is only associated with the passport?

As I quoted from the Wikipedia article:
"Americans, or American people, are the citizens of the United States of America. The country is home to people of different national origins. As a result, Americans do not equate their nationality with ethnicity, but with citizenship. With the exception of the Native American population, nearly all Americans or their ancestors immigrated within the past five centuries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans

Take from it what you want I guess...

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »
If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN. DUH, just like you are Polish, get over it.

At least you don't force him to wear armbands with some fancy pictures (yet).

That's a huge, and ridiculous jump. That's like: "I don't like stars -> You hate Jews."
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »
Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

Well he is an American citizen.

Can't Serbians be American citizens?

If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

You are taking Devin the wrong way. There are many idioms in the States and he just used one to give more oomph to his statement. He did not mean that he would actually assault the kid.

I understood him well. Adult chauvinists telling children that they must become Americans are bad enough.

What I'm saying is the Serbian Kid I was speaking about is already an American citizen. There isn't a reason to divide or distinguish between a Serbian American and an Anglo American or a Russian American and a Greek American. He and I are both simply Americans. He has Serbian ancestry, I have English, Scottish, Irish, Native American and Dutch ancestry. Yet both of us are simply Americans. That doesn't mean he has to "assimilate" and forget his Serbian background, in fact he can still retain it all and be simply an American.

Quote
If a 20+ man approached my kid and told him he must be a Pole, I would punch that chauvinist straight in his face.

Why can't he be a Serbian living in the USA? Why does that bother you? Why do you want to force him to become American?

If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN. DUH, just like you are Polish, get over it.

I disagree celtic, I think the United States is different than most of Europe in that aspect. If my German friend moved to France and became a French citizen, I don't think that necessarily makes him French. Over there in Europe, nationality is more closely tied to ethnicity whether for good or for bad.

No, not at all. If your parents are from Ghana, and you are born and raised Norwegian, you are an African-ethnic Norwegian. If your parents are Serbs and you are born and raised in the US, you are Serbian-ethnic American.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »
So being American is only associated with the passport?

I don't have US passport or citizenship, and I consider myself part American.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »
If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

Because you'd be lieing to yourself if you grew up in a country and denied being part of it.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2012, 08:29:16 PM »
This is just me, of course, but I kind of think that other peoples' behavior in church, rude or otherwise, is none of my beeswax.

True in theory, difficult to put into practice when you are literally being physically shoved while in line to commune.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #145 on: July 19, 2012, 08:31:27 PM »
I am Greek

That's something new for me.

Of the self-loathing variety, Michal. <3
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #146 on: July 19, 2012, 09:03:12 PM »
Quote
(and I say all of this while wearing a "got ouzo?" shirt, while I'm not Greek, that doesn't mean I can't enjoy aspects of their culture,  Grin)
I doubt that is part of the Greek culture ??? :o ::)

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #147 on: July 20, 2012, 11:27:54 AM »
This is just me, of course, but I kind of think that other peoples' behavior in church, rude or otherwise, is none of my beeswax.

True in theory, difficult to put into practice when you are literally being physically shoved while in line to commune.

See, this is where I derive great pleasure from bowing to the shover, and saying quietly, "would you like to go ahead of me?" It doesn't faze them a bit, of course, I feel better!  ;D
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #148 on: July 21, 2012, 10:58:38 PM »
If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

Because you'd be lieing to yourself if you grew up in a country and denied being part of it.

Being part of something is not the same as identifying as something.  :)

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2012, 12:26:30 PM »
If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

Because you'd be lieing to yourself if you grew up in a country and denied being part of it.

Being part of something is not the same as identifying as something.  :)

Mayhaps not, but if you grew up in the states as a Serb, you should call yourself Serbian-American atleast. Because you are an ethnic Serb raised in America.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #150 on: July 22, 2012, 03:35:19 PM »
If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

Because you'd be lieing to yourself if you grew up in a country and denied being part of it.

Being part of something is not the same as identifying as something.  :)

Mayhaps not, but if you grew up in the states as a Serb, you should call yourself Serbian-American atleast. Because you are an ethnic Serb raised in America.

I think that Celtic is quite right. Besides, it would be exceedingly odd (unusual) to have lived in America all your life without some kind of "Americanism" rubbing off on you. Hence, Serbian-American, which may seem strange in other, more homogeneous countries but in this one, thank God, you are not forced to change your ethnicity. Indeed, there are quite a few scholars of all disciplines who believe that there is no such thing as American ethnicity but there is a more diffuse, harder to pinpoint, American identity, which over-arches ethic identities without subsuming them. In this situation, there is no question that the individual ethnicity and the American identity influence and change each other to some degree. Thus, one can speak of oneself as Irish-, Italian-, German-, etc,. and Serbian-American.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 03:37:42 PM by Second Chance »

Offline mike

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #151 on: July 22, 2012, 04:01:32 PM »
Why do you refuse people to choose fr themselves whoever they'd like to be?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #152 on: July 22, 2012, 04:27:48 PM »
Why do you refuse people to choose fr themselves whoever they'd like to be?

I do not think that any red-blooded American would ever do that. You are simply misinterpreting what Celticfan1888 and others have been saying. Folks can choose whatever they would like but that does not immunize them from criticism. It seems to me that you are saying that folks can do whatever what they want and be free of any criticism.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #153 on: July 22, 2012, 05:44:16 PM »
If you live in a country, you must follow the rules, regulations, and guidelines of being there, or you have the right to leave. If he is born in America, he is an AMERICAN.

Of course people who live in US must obey US laws and all but why an Earth people should base their identities on political entities?

Because you'd be lieing to yourself if you grew up in a country and denied being part of it.

Being part of something is not the same as identifying as something.  :)

Mayhaps not, but if you grew up in the states as a Serb, you should call yourself Serbian-American atleast. Because you are an ethnic Serb raised in America.

I think there lies the heart of misunderstanding in this. It could be that European national identities tend to be a lot more exclusive than the American ones so maybe from Serbian/European perspective there is no such thing as "Serbian-American". There is only "Serbian" or "American". It's a topic of another discussion whether US or European discourse is more correct one but anyway IMHO the could be a difference between US and European perspective.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #154 on: July 22, 2012, 07:03:38 PM »
Why do you refuse people to choose fr themselves whoever they'd like to be?

Because sometimes people want to be something they are not.  Men deciding they want to be women, etc.  Reality must be maintained.  I remember some time ago there was a fellow who believed he was Napoleon, but he wasn’t.  I don’t see it so much as a refusal, rather more a balancing of reality.

But, in truth, if it doesn't hurt anyone, to include the person, I see no serious problems with it.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 07:07:14 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #155 on: July 22, 2012, 07:05:14 PM »
I’m a Scottish-Irish-English-Norwegian-Swedish-Native American.  Did I win anything?

In all seriousness, when I hear _____-American it’s like nails on a chalk board.  Unless a person was born in another country and then became an American citizen, it’s an inaccurate title.  If born in America, you are American.  If you live in America, but are not a citizen, you are whatever country citizen you came from.  If you were born somewhere else and became an American citizen, then the title would fit.  

I laugh when I explain to people Charlize Theron is African and Aboriginals are not African-American, and then see a perplexed look on their face.  Ethnicity and Nationality are no longer intertwined, especially after so many centuries of interracial/intercultural mingling.  

Please do not misunderstand.  I have no problem (not that it would make any difference :) )when using these things as a way to identify oneself, as you see Scottish is first on my list after finding out my Great-Grandmother belonged a Sept of the Clan MacLean, thus I barely qualify for membership.  Its heritage, but it’s an inward (I think) identity, not an outward.

Just my two cents.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 07:05:55 PM by Kerdy »

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #156 on: July 22, 2012, 10:59:31 PM »
I’m a Scottish-Irish-English-Norwegian-Swedish-Native American.  Did I win anything?

In all seriousness, when I hear _____-American it’s like nails on a chalk board.  Unless a person was born in another country and then became an American citizen, it’s an inaccurate title.  If born in America, you are American.  If you live in America, but are not a citizen, you are whatever country citizen you came from.  If you were born somewhere else and became an American citizen, then the title would fit.  

I laugh when I explain to people Charlize Theron is African and Aboriginals are not African-American, and then see a perplexed look on their face.  Ethnicity and Nationality are no longer intertwined, especially after so many centuries of interracial/intercultural mingling.  

Please do not misunderstand.  I have no problem (not that it would make any difference :) )when using these things as a way to identify oneself, as you see Scottish is first on my list after finding out my Great-Grandmother belonged a Sept of the Clan MacLean, thus I barely qualify for membership.  Its heritage, but it’s an inward (I think) identity, not an outward.

Just my two cents.

So I don't have the right to call myself part American despite living here?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2012, 10:32:10 AM »
I’m a Scottish-Irish-English-Norwegian-Swedish-Native American.  Did I win anything?

In all seriousness, when I hear _____-American it’s like nails on a chalk board.  Unless a person was born in another country and then became an American citizen, it’s an inaccurate title.  If born in America, you are American.  If you live in America, but are not a citizen, you are whatever country citizen you came from.  If you were born somewhere else and became an American citizen, then the title would fit.  

I laugh when I explain to people Charlize Theron is African and Aboriginals are not African-American, and then see a perplexed look on their face.  Ethnicity and Nationality are no longer intertwined, especially after so many centuries of interracial/intercultural mingling.  

Please do not misunderstand.  I have no problem (not that it would make any difference :) )when using these things as a way to identify oneself, as you see Scottish is first on my list after finding out my Great-Grandmother belonged a Sept of the Clan MacLean, thus I barely qualify for membership.  Its heritage, but it’s an inward (I think) identity, not an outward.

Just my two cents.

So I don't have the right to call myself part American despite living here?

What does "part American" *mean*?

In America, freedom of speech is guaranteed by our constitution.  You may *call* yourself anything you like, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2012, 12:15:38 PM »
I’m a Scottish-Irish-English-Norwegian-Swedish-Native American.  Did I win anything?

In all seriousness, when I hear _____-American it’s like nails on a chalk board.  Unless a person was born in another country and then became an American citizen, it’s an inaccurate title.  If born in America, you are American.  If you live in America, but are not a citizen, you are whatever country citizen you came from.  If you were born somewhere else and became an American citizen, then the title would fit.  

I laugh when I explain to people Charlize Theron is African and Aboriginals are not African-American, and then see a perplexed look on their face.  Ethnicity and Nationality are no longer intertwined, especially after so many centuries of interracial/intercultural mingling.  

Please do not misunderstand.  I have no problem (not that it would make any difference :) )when using these things as a way to identify oneself, as you see Scottish is first on my list after finding out my Great-Grandmother belonged a Sept of the Clan MacLean, thus I barely qualify for membership.  Its heritage, but it’s an inward (I think) identity, not an outward.

Just my two cents.

So I don't have the right to call myself part American despite living here?
Sure you can, if you want.  But if I moved and lived in Scotland the rest of my life, I would still be American unless I became a British subject.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2012, 12:23:05 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Offline mike

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

Offline augustin717

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2012, 03:08:04 PM »
I mean in an American context.

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2012, 03:25:33 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

There are not Belgian, Cyprtiot, or Swiss languages. Duh.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2012, 03:25:33 PM »
I’m a Scottish-Irish-English-Norwegian-Swedish-Native American.  Did I win anything?

In all seriousness, when I hear _____-American it’s like nails on a chalk board.  Unless a person was born in another country and then became an American citizen, it’s an inaccurate title.  If born in America, you are American.  If you live in America, but are not a citizen, you are whatever country citizen you came from.  If you were born somewhere else and became an American citizen, then the title would fit.  

I laugh when I explain to people Charlize Theron is African and Aboriginals are not African-American, and then see a perplexed look on their face.  Ethnicity and Nationality are no longer intertwined, especially after so many centuries of interracial/intercultural mingling.  

Please do not misunderstand.  I have no problem (not that it would make any difference :) )when using these things as a way to identify oneself, as you see Scottish is first on my list after finding out my Great-Grandmother belonged a Sept of the Clan MacLean, thus I barely qualify for membership.  Its heritage, but it’s an inward (I think) identity, not an outward.

Just my two cents.

So I don't have the right to call myself part American despite living here?
Sure you can, if you want.  But if I moved and lived in Scotland the rest of my life, I would still be American unless I became a British subject.

Well I never denied being Norse, I am and I am proud of it. But I am just as much American living here for the past 10 years (since I was 12).

You told me because I am not a citizen, I am not American, your words. lol
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2012, 03:25:33 PM »
I’m a Scottish-Irish-English-Norwegian-Swedish-Native American.  Did I win anything?

In all seriousness, when I hear _____-American it’s like nails on a chalk board.  Unless a person was born in another country and then became an American citizen, it’s an inaccurate title.  If born in America, you are American.  If you live in America, but are not a citizen, you are whatever country citizen you came from.  If you were born somewhere else and became an American citizen, then the title would fit.  

I laugh when I explain to people Charlize Theron is African and Aboriginals are not African-American, and then see a perplexed look on their face.  Ethnicity and Nationality are no longer intertwined, especially after so many centuries of interracial/intercultural mingling.  

Please do not misunderstand.  I have no problem (not that it would make any difference :) )when using these things as a way to identify oneself, as you see Scottish is first on my list after finding out my Great-Grandmother belonged a Sept of the Clan MacLean, thus I barely qualify for membership.  Its heritage, but it’s an inward (I think) identity, not an outward.

Just my two cents.

So I don't have the right to call myself part American despite living here?

What does "part American" *mean*?

In America, freedom of speech is guaranteed by our constitution.  You may *call* yourself anything you like, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

I've spent half my life here... So Norse-American makes sense...
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Offline mike

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #165 on: July 23, 2012, 03:26:18 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

There are not Belgian, Cyprtiot, or Swiss languages. Duh.

There is no American language too.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #166 on: July 23, 2012, 03:29:01 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

There are not Belgian, Cyprtiot, or Swiss languages. Duh.

There is no American language too.
Not anymore.  It used to be English.

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #167 on: July 23, 2012, 05:12:10 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

There are not Belgian, Cyprtiot, or Swiss languages. Duh.

There is no American language too.

Americans speak English; Belgians speak German, French, or Dutch; and Swiss speak Italian, German, or Spanish. Those are their languages.
Forgive my sins.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #168 on: July 23, 2012, 07:31:12 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

Cypriots who identify as such are pretty bizarre, in my opinion.
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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #169 on: July 23, 2012, 08:49:33 PM »
The OCA should be the unchallenged organization in the Americas.



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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2012, 09:06:04 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

Do Austrians speak Austrianeese?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2012, 09:14:53 PM »
The OCA should be the unchallenged organization in the Americas.





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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #172 on: July 23, 2012, 09:18:06 PM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Could you live with the following revision?

If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you may be a hyphenated American and you aren't only [fill in the blanks].

Offline Peter J

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #173 on: July 23, 2012, 09:36:36 PM »
Perhaps it's time to rename this thread. Or split it.
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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2012, 10:44:29 PM »
Agreed. I see the Greeks getting a bad rap often, and I don't want to diss anyone's experience, but this has definitely not been mine. The first Divine Liturgy I attended was at a Greek Orthodox parish..


Like you, the first Divine Liturgy I ever attended was at a Greek parish; and although I am a member of an OCA parish I still love to attend that Greek parish on a fairly regular basis. I would point out that this parish is heavily ethnic in it's makeup and never once have I felt unwelcome. In fact if not for the courtesy of a nice lady who saw me looking lost in the parking lot the very first time I went there and invited me to sit with her and her family during the liturgy I may not be Orthodox today. It was an experience of hospitality that I remember to this day, especially when I see a new person at my parish looking lost...... ;)

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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #175 on: July 24, 2012, 01:08:08 AM »
Perhaps it's time to rename this thread. Or split it.

I concur
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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #176 on: July 24, 2012, 10:57:06 AM »
If you don't speak the language of whatever ethnicity you identify with, then you are just an American and you aren't [fill in the blanks] in any meaningful sense.

Tell that to Belgians, Cypriots, Swisses...

There are not Belgian, Cyprtiot, or Swiss languages. Duh.

There is no American language too.

Wrong--just ask the English.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 11:02:49 AM by J Michael »
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Re: Predominate Orthodox Church in America
« Reply #177 on: July 24, 2012, 11:01:35 AM »
In the last neighborhood I lived in, if I walked around, there were signs in English, Spanish, and Arabic. In my current neighborhood, it's English, Spanish, and Polish. Other neighborhoods, other languages. I suppose English and Spanish were the common denominators throughout.