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Author Topic: Discussion on Abortion and Culture Wars  (Read 2118 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 10, 2012, 06:43:37 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 01:51:41 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?

Condemning such a practice certainly belongs to the Orthodox faithful. Why should we be silent in the face of such an atrocity?
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 10:54:27 PM »

Quote
That is utterly ridiculous. Is he also like St. George in his heroic sufferings for the Faith?

Not unless someone decides to make a martyr of him.

As it stands he has been asked to resign as primate by the synod…it is the why that is determinative. If he asked them to do this without being pressured and pushed, then not an issue. If there is some serious malfeasance or scandal he has perpetrated and for the good of his soul and the Church he is being asked to step down, then it's not an issue…but if it's because some power block there didn't like his style, his stances, his boldness…the very things all the laity I know loves him for…then there is a problem and the comparison is apt. It may not be of the same scale and import in the grand scheme of things as St. Athenasius…but it would be the same sort of…shall we say… shortsightedness.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:55:03 PM by Seraphim98 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2012, 09:11:37 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2012, 09:54:15 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2012, 09:55:24 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

No, it is not. Trullo 91.
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2012, 10:00:03 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

No, it is not. Trullo 91.
Which says...?
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2012, 10:01:10 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

No, it is not. Trullo 91.
Which says...?

It says he who refuses to google a simple reference is anathema.

"Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the fœtus, are subjected to the penalty of murder."
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2012, 10:03:18 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

No, it is not. Trullo 91.
Which says...?

It says he who refuses to google a simple reference is anathema.
You posted it. You can certainly tell us what it says. Wink
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2012, 11:11:07 PM »

Right? How hard is it to copy and paste that into Google? lol

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

No, it is not. Trullo 91.
Which says...?

It says he who refuses to google a simple reference is anathema.

"Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the fœtus, are subjected to the penalty of murder."
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2012, 12:31:19 AM »

Not my job. LOL! laugh

Right? How hard is it to copy and paste that into Google? lol

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

No, it is not. Trullo 91.
Which says...?

It says he who refuses to google a simple reference is anathema.

"Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the fœtus, are subjected to the penalty of murder."
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2012, 01:24:01 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What.
I thought it was a decent question; you apparently disagree.

Quote
abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures.
Ok...?

Quote
The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it. 

Isn't that what the Church does?  What am I missing?  Should the Church not speak out about it (it's against it), or are you saying they should stay out of politics?

Also, what is this history of the Church's response based on, your recollection or guess?

I appreciate some of the balance you bring to discussions, but many of your interpretations and generalizations of practice seem as biased and unreliable as any of the culture warriors'.

 

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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2012, 01:27:58 AM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2012, 02:04:26 PM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25548.msg528192.html#msg528192

This is the short form.

I've made the point elsewhere.

Unlike many of the so-called moral problems of the world, abortion is unique within the first world in that you can right now, today, stop a murder, if you so think it is murder. And you can do it directly and without much effort.

The fact that the people who argue that abortion is murder treat it different than clearly analogous situations demonstrates they do not believe it is murder no matter how loud they say it.

In fact, because they have to hear themselves say it so much and plaster bumper stickers on their cars and protest shows exactly how much they truly don't believe what they say. (The same argument would go for the "meat is murder" crowd. Like him or not, one thing about Peter Singer is that he attempts to be monstrously consistent in his moral arguments.)

Abortion is a particularly potent issue here in America as it deals with a large part of American ideology. I wrote a quick draft about America's fetishizing of children (and I am not talking about the kiddie diddlers here but the family values people), but never posted it. Maybe another time.

But I think this is going to start taking the thread down another route if we continue, so this is my last post on the matter here.
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2012, 11:16:08 PM »

As a parent of 5, and as an uncle that has lost either 3 or 4 nieces and nephews to abortion, I think its plain flat murder.  No war, or something that can even be discussed.   Abortion is evil.
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 02:41:42 AM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25548.msg528192.html#msg528192

This is the short form.

I've made the point elsewhere.

Unlike many of the so-called moral problems of the world, abortion is unique within the first world in that you can right now, today, stop a murder, if you so think it is murder. And you can do it directly and without much effort.

Cops are always around the abortion clinic in my city when it is open. There is literally no way I could use force to stop an abortion unless I incapacitated all of them first.
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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2012, 10:22:11 AM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
...and the "fundamentalist" and the "liberal" Protestant differences on abortion are relatively recent developments:

Quote
In 1971, the Southern Baptist Convention agreed, in a joint resolution: "We call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother."

Dallas Theological Seminary professors also supported the cause. Bruce Wakte, writing in Christianity Today, drew on Exodus 21:22-24 to argue that "God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed." His colleague Norman Geisler concurred: "The embryo is not fully human -- it is an undeveloped person."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 10:33:04 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2012, 10:56:10 AM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25548.msg528192.html#msg528192

This is the short form.

I've made the point elsewhere.

Unlike many of the so-called moral problems of the world, abortion is unique within the first world in that you can right now, today, stop a murder, if you so think it is murder. And you can do it directly and without much effort.

The fact that the people who argue that abortion is murder treat it different than clearly analogous situations demonstrates they do not believe it is murder no matter how loud they say it.

In fact, because they have to hear themselves say it so much and plaster bumper stickers on their cars and protest shows exactly how much they truly don't believe what they say. (The same argument would go for the "meat is murder" crowd. Like him or not, one thing about Peter Singer is that he attempts to be monstrously consistent in his moral arguments.)

Abortion is a particularly potent issue here in America as it deals with a large part of American ideology. I wrote a quick draft about America's fetishizing of children (and I am not talking about the kiddie diddlers here but the family values people), but never posted it. Maybe another time.

But I think this is going to start taking the thread down another route if we continue, so this is my last post on the matter here.


Did you end up posting this later on down the line?  George Carlin did a bit on it, but I'd love to hear your take as well.
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2012, 02:51:45 PM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25548.msg528192.html#msg528192

This is the short form.

I've made the point elsewhere.

Unlike many of the so-called moral problems of the world, abortion is unique within the first world in that you can right now, today, stop a murder, if you so think it is murder. And you can do it directly and without much effort.

The fact that the people who argue that abortion is murder treat it different than clearly analogous situations demonstrates they do not believe it is murder no matter how loud they say it.

In fact, because they have to hear themselves say it so much and plaster bumper stickers on their cars and protest shows exactly how much they truly don't believe what they say. (The same argument would go for the "meat is murder" crowd. Like him or not, one thing about Peter Singer is that he attempts to be monstrously consistent in his moral arguments.)

Abortion is a particularly potent issue here in America as it deals with a large part of American ideology. I wrote a quick draft about America's fetishizing of children (and I am not talking about the kiddie diddlers here but the family values people), but never posted it. Maybe another time.

But I think this is going to start taking the thread down another route if we continue, so this is my last post on the matter here.


Did you end up posting this later on down the line?  George Carlin did a bit on it, but I'd love to hear your take as well.

Actually, someone who I work with heard me ranting about kids (the more humorous than serious version) and played the Carlin thing.

Carlin was too kind.
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2012, 03:10:03 PM »

Just in case you guys have failed to notice, this is the Religious Topics board, which is located on the Public Forum, where discussion of politics is forbidden. So knock off the politics.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 03:11:33 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2012, 05:22:54 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
...and the "fundamentalist" and the "liberal" Protestant differences on abortion are relatively recent developments:

Quote
In 1971, the Southern Baptist Convention agreed, in a joint resolution: "We call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother."

Dallas Theological Seminary professors also supported the cause. Bruce Wakte, writing in Christianity Today, drew on Exodus 21:22-24 to argue that "God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed." His colleague Norman Geisler concurred: "The embryo is not fully human -- it is an undeveloped person."

I thought the Baptists were like a conservative Protestant denomination?

That's awful.
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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2012, 05:46:47 PM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25548.msg528192.html#msg528192

This is the short form.

I've made the point elsewhere.

Unlike many of the so-called moral problems of the world, abortion is unique within the first world in that you can right now, today, stop a murder, if you so think it is murder. And you can do it directly and without much effort.

The fact that the people who argue that abortion is murder treat it different than clearly analogous situations demonstrates they do not believe it is murder no matter how loud they say it.

In fact, because they have to hear themselves say it so much and plaster bumper stickers on their cars and protest shows exactly how much they truly don't believe what they say. (The same argument would go for the "meat is murder" crowd. Like him or not, one thing about Peter Singer is that he attempts to be monstrously consistent in his moral arguments.)

Abortion is a particularly potent issue here in America as it deals with a large part of American ideology. I wrote a quick draft about America's fetishizing of children (and I am not talking about the kiddie diddlers here but the family values people), but never posted it. Maybe another time.

But I think this is going to start taking the thread down another route if we continue, so this is my last post on the matter here.


Did you end up posting this later on down the line?  George Carlin did a bit on it, but I'd love to hear your take as well.

Actually, someone who I work with heard me ranting about kids (the more humorous than serious version) and played the Carlin thing.

Carlin was too kind.

OK, now I really want to hear your take!  PM if you must!
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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2012, 06:03:53 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
...and the "fundamentalist" and the "liberal" Protestant differences on abortion are relatively recent developments:

Quote
In 1971, the Southern Baptist Convention agreed, in a joint resolution: "We call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother."

Dallas Theological Seminary professors also supported the cause. Bruce Wakte, writing in Christianity Today, drew on Exodus 21:22-24 to argue that "God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed." His colleague Norman Geisler concurred: "The embryo is not fully human -- it is an undeveloped person."

I thought the Baptists were like a conservative Protestant denomination?

That's awful.
Define "conservative".
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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2012, 06:31:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?

As a Church we can't pick sides, we have to pray mutually for the victims as well as the aggressors.  Synergy is complicated that way, something like the rain falls on the wicked and just alike.. the Fathers dig forgiveness etc etc

Cultural wars are fought by personalities, by force of will.  Spiritual battles are fought by not fighting at all, but by yielding and submitting to Grace of God.  How can we combine the two? In our own cultural realities, we need prayer, love, and the Holy Spirit.  We can't stop abortion through a war, just like we couldn't stop slavery or racism through war(s).   Hundreds of years of fighting and what finally put aside ol' Jim Crow? Love, peace, and community building. We are at the same crossroads with abortion, or pacifism, or poverty.  These cultural wars can't be won through political tactics, through wars of attrition.  We can't starve out the political will of people we disagree with. THIS IS NOT ORTHODOX.  We change the world through living our Faith, and that means loving our enemies all the more, day after day, struggle after struggle.  We seek GRACE to achieve what politics never can, unity and community.

So how do we stand? We must go deeper into our communities, and build love.  Let the monks flee to caves, God has put us here in these societies where we live to save souls through our example, through our love, through our patience.  Again, it takes Grace.  We cultivate this Grace in the Church.  We then take that Grace into the communities around us and build love, emphasis on the work part angel

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 08:15:52 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.
This is absolutely wrong on all accounts according to the Church fathers.
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 08:36:17 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.
This is absolutely wrong on all accounts according to the Church fathers.
Karl Marx is augustin's favorite "Father."
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 08:47:53 PM »

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Can you always delineate between saving souls and "culture wars"?  Which one does abortion, for instance, belong to?
What. abortion was always practiced, even in pre-modern Orthodox cultures . The church punished it with some sort of penance. That's about it. Should stay like this. I don't give a frozen onion to what the the culture warriors have ton say about it.  Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.
This is absolutely wrong on all accounts according to the Church fathers.
Karl Marx is augustin's favorite "Father."
Ah, I see. Moving on, then...
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Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 09:00:33 PM »

Plus abortion is something less than murder. Based on the canonical tradition of the church too.

And as I have demonstrated at least twice here, based on the very behavior of those who would equate the two.

I'm unsure as to why Augustin threw the last part in; I didn't mention anything about that.

That said, I'm not sure I follow your response.  Would you mind explaining or pointing me to the thread where you explained that point? 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25548.msg528192.html#msg528192

This is the short form.

I've made the point elsewhere.

Unlike many of the so-called moral problems of the world, abortion is unique within the first world in that you can right now, today, stop a murder, if you so think it is murder. And you can do it directly and without much effort.
per the rest of your nonsense, directly and without much effort is not the case.  It would require for starters a) the identification of all pregnant women b) monitoring of them 24/7 for 9 months c) the means to do so d) the means to withstand the full force of the state preventing a, b, c and d.
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 09:22:11 PM »

I'm sorry, but no matter how much I try to look past it, I still cannot get over the fact that criminalizing abortion still seems like it is just a further attempt by the religious-right WASP to force their 'superior Christian hur hurr' ethics upon the less fortunate 'uncivilized' minority communities in urban-sprawl America. Ask yourself, who is going to suffer from outlawing abortion? The WASP will be virtually unaffected by the law since they can just use their wealth to get safe-but-illegal abortions done and then hide it, but the less fortunate minority groups will either be forced to bear and raise the child in difficult circumstances or try to abort it in a dangerous way that will put both the lives of the fetus and the mother at risk because they don't have the luxury of being wealthy enough where the law practically doesn't apply to you. We stay out of your community so why can't you stay out of ours? If we want to resist abortion--as many Latinas (including my mother) do--then we will resist it out of our own ethics and choice. But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway? You've never done anything good or beneficial for us--hell, you attack welfare and question our citizenship at every moment possible--so what right do you have to try to force your WASP morality upon us? Show us you care first, help us first and become our friends first, and then maybe we will consider your ethical advice.
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2012, 09:29:56 PM »

I'm sorry, but no matter how much I try to look past it, I still cannot get over the fact that criminalizing abortion still seems like it is just a further attempt by the religious-right WASP to force their 'superior Christian hur hurr' ethics upon the less fortunate 'uncivilized' minority communities in urban-sprawl America. Ask yourself, who is going to suffer from outlawing abortion? The WASP will be virtually unaffected by the law since they can just use their wealth to get safe-but-illegal abortions done and then hide it, but the less fortunate minority groups will either be forced to bear and raise the child in difficult circumstances or try to abort it in a dangerous way that will put both the lives of the fetus and the mother at risk because they don't have the luxury of being wealthy enough where the law practically doesn't apply to you.
The entire Appalachian region is populated by people that couldn't afford "use their wealth to get safe-but-illegal abortions done and then hide it," and what is it made up of?

WASPs. So quit stereotyping.
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« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2012, 09:30:36 PM »

I'm sorry, but no matter how much I try to look past it, I still cannot get over the fact that criminalizing abortion still seems like it is just a further attempt by the religious-right WASP to force their 'superior Christian hur hurr' ethics upon the less fortunate 'uncivilized' minority communities in urban-sprawl America. Ask yourself, who is going to suffer from outlawing abortion? The WASP will be virtually unaffected by the law since they can just use their wealth to get safe-but-illegal abortions done and then hide it, but the less fortunate minority groups will either be forced to bear and raise the child in difficult circumstances or try to abort it in a dangerous way that will put both the lives of the fetus and the mother at risk because they don't have the luxury of being wealthy enough where the law practically doesn't apply to you. We stay out of your community so why can't you stay out of ours? If we want to resist abortion--as many Latinas (including my mother) do--then we will resist it out of our own ethics and choice. But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway? You've never done anything good or beneficial for us--hell, you attack welfare and question our citizenship at every moment possible--so what right do you have to try to force your WASP morality upon us? Show us you care first, help us first and become our friends first, and then maybe we will consider your ethical advice.

WASP morality?  Abortion is murder.  Why are we preventing murder?  Is it also imposing morality on other people?  Why have anything illegal at all?  Let just anyone do whatever they want because any limit to that is imposing one's morality on another, right?  Is that  your way of thinking?  Hey, if I think taking cocaine is okay and you think it is not okay, why are you imposing your morality on me?  If I want 20 wives, you shouldn't impose your monogamous morality on me.  Why have any laws at all?
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« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2012, 09:33:18 PM »

...Why have any laws at all?

Beats me. You're the one advocating them. Maybe there is something to anarchism after all.

EDIT: After seeing the mod's post, I fear that we are taking this thread in the direction of politics. He's already got some beef with me, so I'm going to refrain from further posting in this thread until it gets moved to politics.
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« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2012, 11:31:39 PM »

...Why have any laws at all?

Beats me. You're the one advocating them. Maybe there is something to anarchism after all.

EDIT: ... I'm going to refrain from further posting in this thread until it gets moved to politics.

Thread on the GOP and caring about people
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2012, 11:39:50 PM »

But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway?

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2012, 11:44:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Them cultural wars, become dem cultural laws
Oh their cultural laws, become our cultural walls

Sail away! Long away!
Long await a to the day, long I wait a to the day
Dare I pray! For longer day
De man a sole a honor day, de man a sole a honor day
Rising…Jah spirit rising
And so I’ll sing and so I’ll sing
Unto the Almighty
Groundation

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2012, 11:50:37 PM »

But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway?

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

If they had done that for us then we wouldn't even need abortions in the first place because we would have support and be in a better condition capable of raising children.
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« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 12:03:29 AM »

But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway?

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

If they had done that for us then we wouldn't even need abortions in the first place because we would have support and be in a better condition capable of raising children.

That does not excuse it on a moral level, though.
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« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2012, 12:06:35 AM »

But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway?

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

If they had done that for us then we wouldn't even need abortions in the first place because we would have support and be in a better condition capable of raising children.

Not everyone who commits infanticide does so because there are no means of support to raise children.
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« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2012, 12:42:10 AM »

Well this is a weird thread. I would think all Christians, regardless of denomination or jurisdiction, would be against abortion based on verses like Jeremiah 1:5, which flat out says that God forms and sanctifies unborn life (granted, this was written in the context of calling forth a prophet, but prophets are certainly people). For Orthodox and Catholics especially, for whom the writings of the Fathers likewise carry weight, the choice should be clear.

Thoughts of "condemning" poor people or "forcing our morality" on them are entirely secondary concerns, however valid they may seem in the modern discussion that claims everything as a matter of human rights (perhaps the most abused concept in modern times, together with concepts of 'tolerance' and 'diversity'). Who is more poor or more forced upon than the unborn child who has no choice in what happens to him, as he is completely dependent upon his mother?

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« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2012, 12:50:03 AM »

Well this is a weird thread. I would think all Christians, regardless of denomination or jurisdiction, would be against abortion
You would think so, but sadly it's not the case... I've known plenty of Protestants in favor of abortion rights, and even some Orthodox and Catholics.
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« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2012, 01:25:03 AM »

But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway?

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

If they had done that for us then we wouldn't even need abortions in the first place because we would have support and be in a better condition capable of raising children.
You assUme.  Plenty of people abort children they are capable of raising.

Who's "they"?
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« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2012, 01:29:14 AM »

But if we do want an abortion, what business is it of yours anyway?

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

If they had done that for us then we wouldn't even need abortions in the first place because we would have support and be in a better condition capable of raising children.
You assUme.  Plenty of people abort children they are capable of raising.

Who's "they"?

Those oppressed by white people, of course.
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« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2012, 02:30:45 AM »

I don't know where JamesR gets all this "WASP morality" business from. Traditionally Hispanics are quite socially conservative, particularly on life issues. Note that "Liberation Theology" and the like is generally about fiscal issues such as redistribution of wealth; anti-religious sentiment, such that it is present, has generally been expressed in anticlerical terms (which would make sense, given the enormous political power of the Roman Catholic Church in most Latin American countries), rather than as a rejection of religion-based morality altogether. Perhaps there is a split between the newer generation and the old, but even as recently as when I was James' age (~15 years ago), it would have been a huge scandal for any girl who got pregnant to do anything other than keep the baby. Case in point, of the dozen or so Hispanic girls I knew growing up who got pregnant in their teenage years, not one aborted. You could say that it is a harsh religious outlook that essentially strips them of their "choice", but knowing these girls and their families, I think it's better to say that they have a culture which values family cohesion over individuality, and the social support system that goes along with being part of a community that cares about children and elders, rather than treating both as some kind of temporary burden to be kicked out of the house at 18 or shuffled off to a nursing home. I mean, I know anecdotal evidence is not anything to base conclusions on, but even in my own family, we wouldn't put my grandmother in a nursing home ever. And she wouldn't go even if we wanted her to (she was even mad when she had to spend a few weeks in an outpatient care home recovering from shoulder surgery, thinking that we had abandoned her, even though it was the doctor she was seeing that ordered it). My uncle lived next door to her (actually, in one house, just separated by a wall that he built to make it into two, with a door in the side so that they could drop in on each other at any time) since the day he got married (1970; to his high school sweetheart, the only girl he ever dated, and he's still married to her -- how rare is that these days!), and took care of her until the day she died, about three years ago. You could say this is all part of the same impulse: We won't throw out our old people, just like we won't throw out our children (even if they're in their late 20s, like a lot of guys I grew up with; and the same goes for their sisters...if they're not married, they're not going anywhere). That's as traditional as it gets.

WASP morality...no mames, güey!
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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2012, 02:35:16 AM »

I'm perfectly aware of all this. Most Latinas don't get abortions, and to be honest, I think that deciding not to oftentimes ruins their lives because then they are never able to educate themselves and rise to a higher position in society. My mother being an example. My problem is with WASPs FORCING us to not get abortions. I just think that the decision for us to abort should remain present.
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2012, 02:45:28 AM »

Orthodox must be uncompromising on defending the life of those unborn. I can't comprehend how anyone orthodox could say anything other.
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