Author Topic: is it the same greek?  (Read 1735 times)

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Offline isaelie

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is it the same greek?
« on: July 13, 2012, 07:18:50 PM »
Hi, just a very simple question.
The Greek that is used in the liturgy and the greek that is used for chanting, are they a different greek than the greek used outside of church?
Can someone explain what greek is used for what.

Offline Rufus

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 07:32:37 PM »
Church Greek is essentially the same as Biblical Koine--there are some minor differences in style and vocabulary. Modern spoken Greek is quite different. Less educated Greeks cannot understand a church service. I know liturgical Greek very well, and I cannot understand modern Greek at all.

Offline genesisone

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 09:13:26 PM »
How do the two forms of Greek compare to Latin vs Italian?

Offline Rufus

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 09:23:40 PM »
How do the two forms of Greek compare to Latin vs Italian?

Well, I don't know any Italian, but I can read French, and Koine for a Greek is probably like reading Latin for a Frenchman. It's easy to learn, but people who have no education in it (formal or otherwise) can only understand a couple phrases...they usually don't want to, either, which is more of a problem.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 09:24:19 PM by Rufus »

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 06:12:53 PM »
How do the two forms of Greek compare to Latin vs Italian?

Modern Greek is a lot closer to Liturgical Greek than Italian is to Latin.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 07:46:23 PM »
Hi, just a very simple question.
The Greek that is used in the liturgy and the greek that is used for chanting, are they a different greek than the greek used outside of church?
Can someone explain what greek is used for what.

It is very common for Greek Bibles, Psalters, patristic texts, etc. to be published with the original text on one side and the modern Greek on the other, which wouldn't be necessary were it easily intelligible to the average modern Greek reader. However, the modern Greek tends to be paraphrastic and serves more as an explanation of the text rather than simply reproducing it in modern form, so a comparison of the two is often quite misleading.

The Greek used in Church isn't completely uniform either. For example, the Psalms and other text taken from the Old Testament predate much of the hymnography we use by several centuries. While liturgical texts were always composed in a conservative form, the language had nonetheless not remained static over that period of time.

Modern Greek is a lot closer to Liturgical Greek than Italian is to Latin.

And for those familiar with Katharevousa, liturgical Greek isn't far off at all.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 08:09:29 PM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Basil 320

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 04:29:49 AM »
Church Greek is essentially the same as Biblical Koine--there are some minor differences in style and vocabulary. Modern spoken Greek is quite different. Less educated Greeks cannot understand a church service. I know liturgical Greek very well, and I cannot understand modern Greek at all.

I understand modern Greek, to some extent---I'm not that good at it, and Liturgical Greek.  I don't find them that much different, there are just a lot of liturgical and ecclesiastical terms that are not used commonly.  There is no doubt, liturgical Greek is a higher form of the language, which is what I think a liturgical language should be.
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Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 02:03:12 PM »
These comments suggest to me that when the Churches use English in the liturgy it ought to be of the same variety of Elizabeth Hapgood or the 1662 book of common prayer/douay rheims -  IE. hieratic 16th c. formal english - intentionally not being modern paraphrased english.
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline Basil 320

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 05:33:36 PM »
Em, I don't know, I agree with the essence of your thoughts, but Hapgood is a little too not understandable for my taste, though I'm opposed to the use of street language, of  the "You who," variety, as the Greek moderate Old Calendarist Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna has characterized the modern translations.  There is a good "happy medium," essentially what the OCA uses most consistently, and the majority of AOCANA translations, though I'd prefer them to be a little higher grade, i.e. "To Thee O Lord," vs. "To You Lord."  

The most popularly used GOAA translation, the Holy Cross Seminary translation, is terribly modern and common, like for the receipt of Holy Communion "for the forgiveness of sins;" terrible.  GOAA Orthodox Christians receive Holy Communion for the "forgiveness of sins..." while other Orthodox Christians receive Holy Communion and get their sins "remitted."  How could the processor's of the Greek language not know what I know with my limited knowledge of Greek, that "afesin" means "remission," not forgiveness.  I'll bet the translators have some brilliant reasoning for use of "forgiveness," instead of "remission" that won't fly with me.  The Narthex Press-Belmont CA is horrendously modern and light weight too.  In the GOAA, Fr, George Papadeas' (of blessed memory) Patmos Press has the very best English language translations.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:35:53 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 06:22:58 PM »
higher grade, i.e. "To Thee O Lord," vs. "To You Lord."  
Technically speaking, "To You Lord" is the higher grade. Thee is actually very informal use, hence the infamous Sir Edward Coke line: "I thou thee thou traitor!"

Also, on the topic of Forgiveness vs. Remission,
Remit: to release from the guilt or penalty of.
Forgive: to grant relief from payment of.
source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/

IMHO, you trying too hard to find faults where there really are none.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 06:24:17 PM by sheenj »

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2012, 08:52:51 PM »
higher grade, i.e. "To Thee O Lord," vs. "To You Lord."  
Technically speaking, "To You Lord" is the higher grade. Thee is actually very informal use, hence the infamous Sir Edward Coke line: "I thou thee thou traitor!"

Well, yes, but the informal is always used to address God in German, Spanish, Italian, and French (and I think most languages that make the distinction), as well as, apparently, English.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2012, 09:11:27 PM »
higher grade, i.e. "To Thee O Lord," vs. "To You Lord."  
Technically speaking, "To You Lord" is the higher grade. Thee is actually very informal use, hence the infamous Sir Edward Coke line: "I thou thee thou traitor!"

Well, yes, but the informal is always used to address God in German, Spanish, Italian, and French (and I think most languages that make the distinction), as well as, apparently, English.
I know I that. However, he claimed the thee was a "higher grade" than you. I was correcting him on that.

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2012, 09:45:06 PM »
higher grade, i.e. "To Thee O Lord," vs. "To You Lord."  
Technically speaking, "To You Lord" is the higher grade. Thee is actually very informal use, hence the infamous Sir Edward Coke line: "I thou thee thou traitor!"

Well, yes, but the informal is always used to address God in German, Spanish, Italian, and French (and I think most languages that make the distinction), as well as, apparently, English.
I know I that. However, he claimed the thee was a "higher grade" than you. I was correcting him on that.

Oh. Sorry; you're right.  ::) I really shouldn't comment jet-lagged.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: is it the same greek?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 02:14:49 PM »
higher grade, i.e. "To Thee O Lord," vs. "To You Lord."  
Technically speaking, "To You Lord" is the higher grade. Thee is actually very informal use, hence the infamous Sir Edward Coke line: "I thou thee thou traitor!"

Well, yes, but the informal is always used to address God in German, Spanish, Italian, and French (and I think most languages that make the distinction), as well as, apparently, English.
I know I that. However, he claimed the thee was a "higher grade" than you. I was correcting him on that.

Oh. Sorry; you're right.  ::) I really shouldn't comment jet-lagged.
No problem, I often jump to conclusions myself.