Topic: Learning Greek.

[Christianus]

New testament Greek is blowing my mind away... so far I know most of the declensions of nouns, but the verb is so hard...
(where could I learn to conjugate Greek verbs?)
I find Modern Greek grammar to be a lot easier, yet irregular still as ancient Greek( Latin is so regular just only like 1 irregular stem).
And the native Speakers to practice modern Greek with is so rare... unless any of you want to talk on msn or skype.
Greek is so unnecessarily hard,  someone help me...
I'm drowning in unneeded difficulty of no native speakers, and proper language materials.

[ialmisry]

I particularly like this grammar:
New Testament Greek - Second Edition (Hardcover) Gerald L. Stevens

http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Greek-Gerald-Stevens/dp/0761808922/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265906295&sr=1-5
http://www.amazon.com/Testament-Greek-Workbook-Gerald-Stevens/dp/0819195995/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265906542&sr=1-1

[Alveus Lacuna]

If one learns New Testament (Koine?) Greek, then would one be able to read most Greek classics (philosophy, etc.) as well as later Greek patristics?  Or are those different forms of Greek?

[Orthodox11]

If one learns New Testament (Koine?) Greek, then would one be able to read most Greek classics (philosophy, etc.) as well as later Greek patristics? 

No, you'd struggle. But if you learnt Classical Greek, Koine wouldn't be too difficult to pick up.

[Cymbyz]

Attic Greek (the language of the Athenian philosophers and dramatists if the Golden Age) is arout 500 years older than Koine, and is linguistically more complex.  The Erasmian pronunciation of Greek was derived from a study of Attic Greek poetry; by the time of the NT, Greek had undergone systematic sound- and form-change that was to eventuate in Byzantine Greek as you see and hear it in the Liturgy.

[Alveus Lacuna]

So if I learned Koine Greek would I be able to read Byzantine Greek?

[Christianus]

So if I learned Koine Greek would I be able to read Byzantine Greek?

Well it'd be a different style probably I'm guessing, Biblical Latin is so different in Syntax from Cicero and Caesar, so simple, while Cicero and Caesar can store such huge number of clauses in a single sentence, even making each sentence 50-100 words long, and so many more amazing grammatical skills.

[Christianus]

So if I learned Koine Greek would I be able to read Byzantine Greek?

Well it'd be a different style probably I'm guessing, Biblical Latin is so different in Syntax from Cicero and Caesar, so simple, while Cicero and Caesar can store such huge number of clauses in a single sentence, even making each sentence 50-100 words long, and so many more amazing grammatical skills.

Indirect Clauses have a different style
like the use of the conjunction «that» would be said differently classically.
James 1:3  γινώσκοντες ὅτι τὸ δοκίμιον ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως κατεργάζεται ὑπομονήν.
3  scientes quod probatio fidei vestrae patientiam operatur
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
since I don't know Greek, I'll use Latin to show you the classical indirect style of stating things.

The Classical Translation of this verse is:
Scientes probationem fidei vestrae patientiam operari.
Knowing the trying of your faith to work patience.
We appreciate the Classical form because it's clearer, clearly shown in this example.
They believe that they're good, They believe them to be good (others)
they believe that they're good, they believe themselves to be good (themselves)
In the popular syntax, we have no idea of who's they, themselves or some other people.
But in the classical we know very clearly.

[Shiny]

What would be the fastest way to learn the NT Greek?

[Aindriú]

What would be the fastest way to learn the NT Greek?

Data transfer.

[Shiny]

What would be the fastest way to learn the NT Greek?

Data transfer.

at 1.436 KB/s too slow 

[Kasatkin fan]

What would be the fastest way to learn the NT Greek?

Data transfer.

at 1.436 KB/s too slow 

That is slow, but it's much faster than the way I half did it.

[Heorhij]

So if I learned Koine Greek would I be able to read Byzantine Greek?

Greeks pronounce "KeeNEE"

[IsmiLiora]

So if I learned Koine Greek would I be able to read Byzantine Greek?

Greeks pronounce "KeeNEE"

I learned that one the hard way.

[Andrew Crook]

Wow I only know a couple of things..

"Kyrie eleison" = "Lord have mercy"

"Parahus Kyrie" = "Grant this, Lord"

"Si, Kyrie"  "To You, Oh Lord"

"Thoxa patrikio ee kay ei ai o pnevmati".. still unsure about that, but I think it's supposed to be something similar to "Glory to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit"?

I'm pretty positive that "Thoxa patri kee oh, thoxa si"  is "Glory to you Lord, Glory to you" ...

[Cymbyz]

Kyrie eleison. - Lord have mercy.
Paraschou Kyrie. - Grant it, O Lord.
Dhoxa Patri ke Io ke Agio Pnevmati. - Glory to Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
Ke nyn ke ai, ke is tous eonas ton eonon, Amin. - Now and ever, even for ages of ages, Amen.

[Andrew Crook]

Kyrie eleison. - Lord have mercy.
Paraschou Kyrie. - Grant it, O Lord.
Dhoxa Patri ke Io ke Agio Pnevmati. - Glory to Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
Ke nyn ke ai, ke is tous eonas ton eonon, Amin. - Now and ever, even for ages of ages, Amen.

Was I correct that the C in Paraschou Kyrie is silent? Therefore sounding like Paras hu  Kyrie? 

Also, is the "Dh" in Dhoxa.. pronounced like Th in "the" and "that"? 

[akimori makoto]

Kyrie eleison. - Lord have mercy.
Paraschou Kyrie. - Grant it, O Lord.
Dhoxa Patri ke Io ke Agio Pnevmati. - Glory to Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
Ke nyn ke ai, ke is tous eonas ton eonon, Amin. - Now and ever, even for ages of ages, Amen.

Was I correct that the C in Paraschou Kyrie is silent? Therefore sounding like Paras hu  Kyrie? 

Also, is the "Dh" in Dhoxa.. pronounced like Th in "the" and "that"? 

The "ch" in "paraschou, Kyrie" is pronounced like that back-of-the-throat gargling sound you often hear Arabs making. If you can't make that sound, an "h" sound as strong as you can muster is probably closest. "Paras'hou, Kyrie".

And, yes, the "dh" in "dhoxa" is pronounced like the "th" in "the", but not like the "th" in "theatre".

Hope this helps!

[Heorhij]

The "ch" in "paraschou, Kyrie" is pronounced like that back-of-the-throat gargling sound you often hear Arabs making. If you can't make that sound, an "h" sound as strong as you can muster is probably closest. "Paras'hou, Kyrie".

This sound also exists in Slavic languages and is conveyed by the Cyrillic letter X in my native Ukrainian. So, for me, it is easy and natural to pronounce it in "parasxu," "Xristos," "evxaristo" ("thank you"), "psixe" ("soul" or "life"), "Axrantas" ("Most Pure," one of the titles of the Theotokos), etc.

For an English speaker, maybe the clset to the X sound is "ch" in Scottich "Loch."

[stanley123]

I particularly like this grammar:
New Testament Greek - Second Edition (Hardcover) Gerald L. Stevens

http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Greek-Gerald-Stevens/dp/0761808922/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265906295&sr=1-5
http://www.amazon.com/Testament-Greek-Workbook-Gerald-Stevens/dp/0819195995/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265906542&sr=1-1

His book for the second year of study is:
New Testament Greek Intermediate: From Morphology to Translation
Gerald Stevens ISBN-13: 978-0718892005

[celticfan1888]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

[Kerdy]

Within the next few years, my hope is to attend one of the Orthodox Seminaries here in America.  Both of the two I have looked into require a basic language ability of either Greek or Russian.  A friend of mine speaks a little Russian and said it is extremely difficult to learn.  I wonder if Greek would be easier or more difficult.  My church is Greek Orthodox and I can work my way through the parts they speak Greek, but mainly because the Liturgy book we use has it written in an English version on the right hand side and it is only small parts.

If anyone has any guidance, I would very much appreciate the help!

EDIT:

Also, is the requirement for modern language or ancient language for acceptance into the school?

[Orthodox11]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

You should learn Greek if you have the time/means. As Greek was the lingua franca in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time of Christ, and Greek is the language of the Holy Scriptures, the Divine Liturgy, the Ecumenical Councils, and many of our most important Church Fathers  

[stanley123]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

If the Greeks are God's chosen people, why is Greece in so much difficulty now? And why do Macedonians reject their leadership for the former yugoslav republic of macedonia?
BTW, I thought that the British were God's chosen people. Don't they always ask God to save their Queen?

[JamesRottnek]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

If the Greeks are God's chosen people, why is Greece in so much difficulty now? And why do Macedonians reject their leadership for the former yugoslav republic of macedonia?
BTW, I thought that the British were God's chosen people. Don't they always ask God to save their Queen?

No, no, the Americans are God's chosen people; manifest destiny and all that.

[celticfan1888]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

If the Greeks are God's chosen people, why is Greece in so much difficulty now? And why do Macedonians reject their leadership for the former yugoslav republic of macedonia?
BTW, I thought that the British were God's chosen people. Don't they always ask God to save their Queen?

Supreme amount of sarcasm, I'm not even Greek.

[celticfan1888]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

You should learn Greek if you have the time/means. As Greek was the lingua franca in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time of Christ, and Greek is the language of the Holy Scriptures, the Divine Liturgy, the Ecumenical Councils, and many of our most important Church Fathers  

I'm not saying it is bad, I'm not even saying you shouldn't I don't mind Greek, I wouldn't mind learning some one day. I just think that a lot of times people put WAY too much emphasis on it.

[serb1389]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

You should learn Greek if you have the time/means. As Greek was the lingua franca in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time of Christ, and Greek is the language of the Holy Scriptures, the Divine Liturgy, the Ecumenical Councils, and many of our most important Church Fathers  

I'm not saying it is bad, I'm not even saying you shouldn't I don't mind Greek, I wouldn't mind learning some one day. I just think that a lot of times people put WAY too much emphasis on it.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

I would definitely recommend anyone to learn Greek.  Russian is tough & the consonant clusters are really difficult to pronounce.  There's silent letters, and all kinds of conjugations.  Greek might end up being easier. 

[Orthodox11]

I just think that a lot of times people put WAY too much emphasis on it.

I wish that was the case.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

Indeed. Silly My Big Fat Greek Wedding stereotypes aside, Christians in general seem to place almost no emphasis on the importance of Greek at all. In the context of modern Orthodoxy, the Greek language seems to be considered no more than part of a particular ethnic tradition, no different from Romanian, Slavonic, or English - it's the liturgical language of the Greeks and if you're not Greek it's of no relevance to you.

Greek is not just the language of Greeks, but part of the common heritage of all Christians, and anyone able to learn it would benefit tremendously from doing so.

[celticfan1888]

Greek is not just the language of Greeks, but part of the common heritage of all Christians, and anyone able to learn it would benefit tremendously from doing so.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

Maybe I'm still sensitive to it from all the racist Greeks, who told me that "Orthodoxy is for Greeks, not for Scandinavians". Then when I become Orthodox everyone keeps asking "Why? You aren't Greek.". I also am expected to speak Greek everytime I go into a Greek church, and I get very ugly looks. That's why avoid Greek churches everytime I can.

[Orest]

New testament Greek is blowing my mind away... so far I know most of the declensions of nouns, but the verb is so hard...
(where could I learn to conjugate Greek verbs?)
I find Modern Greek grammar to be a lot easier, yet irregular still as ancient Greek( Latin is so regular just only like 1 irregular stem).
And the native Speakers to practice modern Greek with is so rare... unless any of you want to talk on msn or skype.
Greek is so unnecessarily hard,  someone help me...
I'm drowning in unneeded difficulty of no native speakers, and proper language materials.

Make up your mind if you want to learn NT Greek or modern Greek and then sign up for a course.  That is the best way to learn a language.

[serb1389]

Greek is not just the language of Greeks, but part of the common heritage of all Christians, and anyone able to learn it would benefit tremendously from doing so.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

Maybe I'm still sensitive to it from all the racist Greeks, who told me that "Orthodoxy is for Greeks, not for Scandinavians". Then when I become Orthodox everyone keeps asking "Why? You aren't Greek.". I also am expected to speak Greek everytime I go into a Greek church, and I get very ugly looks. That's why avoid Greek churches everytime I can.

I'm really sorry that those things happened to you.  I usually respond by saying "well it was your people who gave us christianity.  no take-backs"  lol.   

I think also though it is good to separate our life experiences from what people are asking us.  is it a good idea to learn greek in order to better understand orthodox teachings?  Yes.  Is the greek language the end-all to be-all?  Nope.  Healthy distinctions are always good.

[Maria]

Greek is not just the language of Greeks, but part of the common heritage of all Christians, and anyone able to learn it would benefit tremendously from doing so.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

Maybe I'm still sensitive to it from all the racist Greeks, who told me that "Orthodoxy is for Greeks, not for Scandinavians". Then when I become Orthodox everyone keeps asking "Why? You aren't Greek.". I also am expected to speak Greek everytime I go into a Greek church, and I get very ugly looks. That's why avoid Greek churches everytime I can.

I'm really sorry that those things happened to you.  I usually respond by saying "well it was your people who gave us christianity.  no take-backs"  lol.   

I think also though it is good to separate our life experiences from what people are asking us.  is it a good idea to learn greek in order to better understand orthodox teachings?  Yes.  Is the greek language the end-all to be-all?  Nope.  Healthy distinctions are always good.

Good response, Father.

I too have had people say to me, "You no looka Greek. Did husband convert you to Orthodoxy?"

I reply, "No, I helped convert my husband to Orthodoxy?"

Then they do a double take and respond, "Are you a Papadoupolos? 

Then I have received this comment: "When you chanted in Greek during the Liturgy, I was sure that you were from Athens."

Yes, I am now trying to learn conversational Greek. Any hints?

[biro]

There are series from Cortina or Teach Yourself that you can get in the library sometimes. 

[Maria]

You must learn Greek. As the Greeks are God's Chosen People, and Greek is the Holy Language.

You should learn Greek if you have the time/means. As Greek was the lingua franca in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time of Christ, and Greek is the language of the Holy Scriptures, the Divine Liturgy, the Ecumenical Councils, and many of our most important Church Fathers  

I'm not saying it is bad, I'm not even saying you shouldn't I don't mind Greek, I wouldn't mind learning some one day. I just think that a lot of times people put WAY too much emphasis on it.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

I would definitely recommend anyone to learn Greek.  Russian is tough & the consonant clusters are really difficult to pronounce.  There's silent letters, and all kinds of conjugations.  Greek might end up being easier. 

And if you have studied Spanish, then Greek is much easier to learn
Not only are many Greek words found in Spanish, (el mapa, el programma, el Cristo, la ecclesia), but also the phonetics is very similar. I was told that while native Spanish speakers roll the initial /r/ in words, the Greeks tend to roll all their /r/s whether initial, medial or as part of a consonant blend. For example, in Xristos Anesti, I have heard Greeks roll that /r/ in the consonant blend /xr/.

[celticfan1888]

Greek is not just the language of Greeks, but part of the common heritage of all Christians, and anyone able to learn it would benefit tremendously from doing so.

Well considering that Greek is the language of the OT, NT, and 95% of the Fathers in the last 2000 years...i'd say we're not putting TOO much emphasis on it.   

Maybe I'm still sensitive to it from all the racist Greeks, who told me that "Orthodoxy is for Greeks, not for Scandinavians". Then when I become Orthodox everyone keeps asking "Why? You aren't Greek.". I also am expected to speak Greek everytime I go into a Greek church, and I get very ugly looks. That's why avoid Greek churches everytime I can.

I'm really sorry that those things happened to you.  I usually respond by saying "well it was your people who gave us christianity.  no take-backs"  lol.   

I think also though it is good to separate our life experiences from what people are asking us.  is it a good idea to learn greek in order to better understand orthodox teachings?  Yes.  Is the greek language the end-all to be-all?  Nope.  Healthy distinctions are always good.

Thank you. I know it isn't all Greeks that are like that, and not even most of them. But the minority that do it are just so obnoxious. lol. I feel sad, because there are so many nice Greek folkes around, but I feel I have to stay from their church because of some of the others in the parish bother me with Greek nationalism.

I agree with you, it is a good idea to learn Greek to help understand Orthodox teachings. I just want to make sure people know that they should for educational purposes, not because Orthodoxy is culturally Greek. Because so many people associate Orthodoxy with Greek culture, which isn't fair.

[Orthodox11]

I agree with you, it is a good idea to learn Greek to help understand Orthodox teachings. I just want to make sure people know that they should for educational purposes, not because Orthodoxy is culturally Greek. Because so many people associate Orthodoxy with Greek culture, which isn't fair.

I think the best way to do that is for people who aren't Greek to emphasise the fact that the Greek language is part of their Christian heritage by promoting and using it. Much like the expression "Greek Orthodox", which has nothing to do with being of a particular ethnicity, nor does it refer to the Balkan republic with Athens as its capital. In this it is quite unlike the terms "Romanian Orthodox", "Serbian Orthodox", etc. which refer to specific geographical areas and/or national identities.

The Greek language, being something all Christians have in common, should serve to emphasise the universality of the Church, not be seen as something divisive. Petty nationalism - whether its Greek chauvanism or anti-Greek chauvanism (I actually see the latter far more often) - has no place in the Church.

[celticfan1888]

I too have had people say to me, "You no looka Greek. Did husband convert you to Orthodoxy?"

I reply, "No, I helped convert my husband to Orthodoxy?"

I get the same thing, my fiancee is Puerto Rican, and she looks Greek to a lot of people. So when we go to a church, they always assume I am there because of her. lol