Author Topic: Does "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil" is a canonical OO church?  (Read 3632 times)

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Offline Fotios1303

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Happy Feast of the Apostles Peter and Paul!


I visited a church of "Saint George and Saint Expeditus" in Sao Paulo,Brazil,this church it seems like a pentecostal church,not orthodox.

This church celebrate liturgy facing the people,and use guitar,pentecostal prayers...

The "priest" of this church tells me that they are under the bishop Titus of "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil within Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch".

From what I know,not exist syriac rite facing to people. And I can't believe that a OO church has accepted pentecostalism...

I have found some photos and videos of this "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil within Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bxhD85_uE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLXjlxD0H0
http://feortodoxa.blog.terra.com.br/2009/07/

Someone can tell me does this church is a canonical OO church?


Fotios
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 10:39:04 PM by Fotios1303 »

Offline Severian

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Offline dhinuus

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I visited a church of "Saint George and Saint Expeditus" in Sao Paulo,Brazil,this church it seems like a pentecostal church,not orthodox.

This church celebrate liturgy facing the people,and use guitar,pentecostal prayers...

The "priest" of this church tells me that they are under the bishop Titus of "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil within Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch".

From what I know,not exist syriac rite facing to people.


Fotios
You are right the Syriac Orthodox Divine Liturgy (Holy Qurbana) is always facing east and is not facing the people like the western (roman) rite.

I know that in November 2011, around 100,000 Catholics and Anglicans were welcomed into the Syriac Orthodox Church in Brazil. His Holiness the Patriarch approved and blessed 2 bishops from this group. At this occasion 80 priests and more than 100,000 believers joined the Syriac Orthodox Church in Brazil. The two Brazilian bishops who were accepted are Jolino Gomes Neto (Archbishop) and Jose Faustino Filho. From what I heard back in November, most of those who joined the Syriac Orthodox Church were charismatic catholics.

I am not sure if these Catholic and Anglican converts were allowed to use a western rite liturgy.

Use of Western Rite Liturgy has some history in the Syriac Orthodox Church. In 1889 a group of Roman Catholics from Goa in India , under the leadership of Fr. Antonio Alvares joined the Syriac Orthodox Church. Fr. Antonio was ordained as a Bishop Mor Julious Alvares for this Goan / Bramhmavar Christians. This group was permitted to use western (latin) rite divine liturgy, with the necessary modifications to comply with the Orthodox theology of the Syriac Church. This group continued to use this western rite worship till the 1960s.

I have found some photos and videos of this "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil within Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bxhD85_uE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLXjlxD0H0
http://feortodoxa.blog.terra.com.br/2009/07/

I noticed that the youtube videos that you have linked are uploaded in 2008. So it must be a recording of the group before they were accepted into the Syriac Orthodox Church in Nov 2011. Also on the blog that you have linked, the last post is on Jan 2011 which is also before Nov 2011.

Someone can tell me does this church is a canonical OO church?
That I dont know. All I know is that a big group of charismatic catholics and some ex anglicans from Brazil were accepted into the Syriac Church in Nov 2011. I dont know if the church that you went to is a canonical OO church.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 06:03:10 AM by dhinuus »
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Offline Alpo

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This group continued to use this western rite worship till the 1960s.

What kind of Western rite they were using and why did they stop?
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Offline dhinuus

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This group continued to use this western rite worship till the 1960s.

What kind of Western rite they were using and why did they stop?
I was born way after the 60s; so I have never seen the western rite liturgy used in Goa/Brahmavar. I dont know what kind of western rite they used. My guess will be whatever was the Latin Mass of 1890 with appropriate modifications of filique etc in the creed... just my guess.

The reason it stopped.. From what I have heard is that there was a clergy shortage for the Goa/Brahmavar group. So clergy from the state of Kerala in India (where traditional Syriac Orthodox liturgy is celebrated) were assigned to serve the Christians of the state of Goa and the region of Brahmavar in India. This clergy only knew how to celebrate the traditional Syriac liturgy and were not trained in the western rite. That is how it slowly died down. It was not that one particualr day a decision was made to supress the western rite and only do the Syriac rite.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 06:12:52 AM by dhinuus »
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Offline Alpo

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Interesting. Thank you for the answer. Nice to see that some OOs are open for WRO.
Quote from: Severian
the people on this forum have to stop taking themselves so seriously. None of us are some modern-day Athanasius, we all just have nothing better to do.

Offline primuspilus

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Interesting. Thank you for the answer. Nice to see that some OOs are open for WRO.
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Offline Fotios1303

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Thanks for the answer!!

Offline kijabeboy03

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I've never heard of a proper Roman Rite service in an Orthodox church where the priest faced the people - that certainly wouldn't have been the case in the services in the Goan church(es).


I visited a church of "Saint George and Saint Expeditus" in Sao Paulo,Brazil,this church it seems like a pentecostal church,not orthodox.

This church celebrate liturgy facing the people,and use guitar,pentecostal prayers...

The "priest" of this church tells me that they are under the bishop Titus of "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil within Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch".

From what I know,not exist syriac rite facing to people.


Fotios
You are right the Syriac Orthodox Divine Liturgy (Holy Qurbana) is always facing east and is not facing the people like the western (roman) rite.

I know that in November 2011, around 100,000 Catholics and Anglicans were welcomed into the Syriac Orthodox Church in Brazil. His Holiness the Patriarch approved and blessed 2 bishops from this group. At this occasion 80 priests and more than 100,000 believers joined the Syriac Orthodox Church in Brazil. The two Brazilian bishops who were accepted are Jolino Gomes Neto (Archbishop) and Jose Faustino Filho. From what I heard back in November, most of those who joined the Syriac Orthodox Church were charismatic catholics.

I am not sure if these Catholic and Anglican converts were allowed to use a western rite liturgy.

Use of Western Rite Liturgy has some history in the Syriac Orthodox Church. In 1889 a group of Roman Catholics from Goa in India , under the leadership of Fr. Antonio Alvares joined the Syriac Orthodox Church. Fr. Antonio was ordained as a Bishop Mor Julious Alvares for this Goan / Bramhmavar Christians. This group was permitted to use western (latin) rite divine liturgy, with the necessary modifications to comply with the Orthodox theology of the Syriac Church. This group continued to use this western rite worship till the 1960s.

I have found some photos and videos of this "Syriac Orthodox Missionary Church in Brazil within Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bxhD85_uE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLXjlxD0H0
http://feortodoxa.blog.terra.com.br/2009/07/

I noticed that the youtube videos that you have linked are uploaded in 2008. So it must be a recording of the group before they were accepted into the Syriac Orthodox Church in Nov 2011. Also on the blog that you have linked, the last post is on Jan 2011 which is also before Nov 2011.

Someone can tell me does this church is a canonical OO church?
That I dont know. All I know is that a big group of charismatic catholics and some ex anglicans from Brazil were accepted into the Syriac Church in Nov 2011. I dont know if the church that you went to is a canonical OO church.
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Offline Suryoyutho

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Maybe this thread can be of help: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=41105.0

...and this reply:

Quote
The Syriac OC in Brazil is comprised of a few immigrants and a number of converts. In the video we see the long-time representative of the Syriac Patriarchate, Fr. Gabriel.

There is a *big* group of converts though who used the name Syriac without authorization for many years. As far as I know, they had contacted the Syriac Patriarchate and were ordered to start discrete Christian missions and would be under observation during this period. They did not respect the order and introduced themselves as due representatives of the Syriac church despite Fr. Gabriel being the only legitimate one. That did not prevent them even from joining the Brazilian Council of Churches in the name of the Syriac Church.

When I denounced this farse on the internet, they started sending me hate mail and even threatened to put me on legal trial. Had it not been for the kind intervention of a State Attorney from S. Paulo they probably would have continued their online aggressions. It seems that once the news spread that they were perpretating a lie questions started being asked and the answers could not be given.

After some time of silence, they reappeared with a real document acknowledging their reception in the Syriac Church. *Today* they are really members of that communion.

I have not found any news in Portuguese about that. Considering their past, I would not be surprised to learn these numbers are "exagerated". But it could be true too. It is an unfortunate reality in Brazil that "fake Orthodox" - and even fake OOs - are far more pro-active in "missions" than the canonical Churches. I really hope that their acceptance in the Syriac church turns out to be something good, and not something that will backfire in some years against the Syriacs themselves.

And the translation they show in the video of the Lord's Prayer is the New Age interpretation of the Aramaic translation of the original Greek text.
The Tur Abdin Timeline - A timeline of Tur Abdin (Syriac for "the Mountain of the Servants [of God]"), the heartland of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, a hilly region located in upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates.

Offline Fotios1303

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this is abominable, they're polluting the orthodoxy and syriac tradition.

Offline Suryoyutho

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It's this one isn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzARiM04SaI

From July 2012. Unforgiveable. Blood is pumping right now. It's that Padre Ribamar in most of the videos.

I found a blog of a Syriac Orthodox Church in Belem as well and they had a post about how to do the sign of the cross and it was the EO way...

Quote
In Orthodox churches, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, it is the sign of the cross (persignação) with three fingers (index finger, thumb and most of all) united thus representing the Holy Trinity of three persons and only two fingers and pinky void touching the palm represent the two natures of Christ.

When making the sign of the cross, first touches up his forehead to bless those thoughts, saying, in the name of the Father .. then burrow into the stomach, the stomach at the time, to bless the emotions, saying: Son ... and then touches up on the right shoulder and then the left shoulder, the physical strength to bless, saying, and the Holy Spirit. Amen In the end it is a metanoia, little body lean forward in adoration at SS. Trinity.

This is the way to make the sign of the cross, since the proclamation of the Nicene Creed in the year 381 in all Christendom today maintained only by the Orthodox Churches. The Roman Catholic Church abandoned this gesture adopting another kind of sign of the cross to differentiate themselves from the Oriental Churches.

What is the Patriarchate doing? :'(
The Tur Abdin Timeline - A timeline of Tur Abdin (Syriac for "the Mountain of the Servants [of God]"), the heartland of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, a hilly region located in upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates.

Offline Cyrillic

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It's this one isn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzARiM04SaI

From July 2012. Unforgiveable. Blood is pumping right now. It's that Padre Ribamar in most of the videos.

I found a blog of a Syriac Orthodox Church in Belem as well and they had a post about how to do the sign of the cross and it was the EO way...

Quote
In Orthodox churches, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, it is the sign of the cross (persignação) with three fingers (index finger, thumb and most of all) united thus representing the Holy Trinity of three persons and only two fingers and pinky void touching the palm represent the two natures of Christ.

When making the sign of the cross, first touches up his forehead to bless those thoughts, saying, in the name of the Father .. then burrow into the stomach, the stomach at the time, to bless the emotions, saying: Son ... and then touches up on the right shoulder and then the left shoulder, the physical strength to bless, saying, and the Holy Spirit. Amen In the end it is a metanoia, little body lean forward in adoration at SS. Trinity.

This is the way to make the sign of the cross, since the proclamation of the Nicene Creed in the year 381 in all Christendom today maintained only by the Orthodox Churches. The Roman Catholic Church abandoned this gesture adopting another kind of sign of the cross to differentiate themselves from the Oriental Churches.

What is the Patriarchate doing? :'(

I smirked.
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Offline Fotios1303

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Why syriac patriarch accepted them? they are still pentecostals, and knows nothing about orthodoxy, tradition.

Offline Fotios1303

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They don't want to study something, to be a real orthodox christian.
They only want "religious shows"(just like majorities of pentecostals in Brazil), this is unacceptable.