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Author Topic: Coptic to Lutheran  (Read 4274 times) Average Rating: 0
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Fotina02
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« on: November 20, 2004, 01:20:26 PM »

I saw this on another forum. Comments?

"From Coptic Christianity to Lutheranism"
Rev. George Naeem" Biblical Orthodox Lutheran Mission

http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc4/Nov_15c.wma

interview is about 15 minutes into the program
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 01:22:46 PM by Fotina02 » Logged
Stavro
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2004, 08:55:14 PM »

It is a bunch of lies without providing evidence or writings to support his point of view. Only Protestant propaganda that takes a shot at all Apostolic Churches.
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"The hierarchs added to the theology".

What exactly did they add ? When, where, under which Pope, and how did it come to be universally accepted.
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They focus on tradition (I guess he meant it with a small t )
I wonder how a priest in the Church does not know what is meant by Tradition, and how can he get so confused as to separate both, the Tradition and the Scripture ?
One thing I never understood about the position of the Protestants regarding the APostolic Churches, whether RC, EO or OO. How can they take the Bible that those churches canonized and then refuse to take their interpretation for it?
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Salvation by grace is forbidden
Not true. A whole book about Grace of God was published by H.H. Pope Shenouda and it is a central piece in the Orthodox understanding. Forbidden ?
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I was ordained in 2000 and excommunicated in 2002
Maybe because he was a heretic.
For if somebody wants to teach doctrines against the Apostolic Faith, let him go outside and teach whatever he wants, but not with the authority of a priest or a representative of it.
it seems he is not fair and he has not reason for be because he has been defrocked.
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Salvation by the sacraments
That is the way the Apostles received the way from Christ and this is the only way Grace can work in believers. For what an empty slogan is it to say :Accept Jesus and be saved without the sacraments ?
For the Protestants do not understand how atonement works and they teach salvation without atonement.
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Coptic Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church
Very ignorant. The man does not know the basics. How can a priest not know that the Coptic Church is Oriental orthodox ?
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Luther tried to go back to the early church
Wink. Yeah, did he succeed ? Is this the christianity of the Apostles ?
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You have to make your part in salvation
Yes.


In addition:
- The man has no idea whatsoever about fasting, prayers, or any Orthodox thing.
- The host is a normal Protestant, ignorant of the Church history and other church other than the Reformed Church, whatever this means.
- Apparently the program is directed towards scaring away those who search for the truth and are attracted to the Orthodox Churches.
- His conversion story is sad, if it wasn't pathetic and it exposes this man as a lier.  According to him:

The man went to a Protestant seminary in Egypt in 1997 and got his Master in Theology. In 1999 he got the Ph.D. in Theology. At that time, according to his own words, he totally rejected the Coptic Church but he went back to be a priest ( I do not know whether this is true or not, needs research. he might be lying about this too) and fooled the hierarchs so he can preach the Gospel to the Orthodox.
How low can it get ?

One other thing:
It seems that the Protestant missions in Egypt are trying to infiltrate the Church from inside by using such tactics. I encourage every true orthodox to report any consistent false teachings to the Bishops, specially His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy.

Peace,
Stavro  


« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 08:56:57 PM by Stavro » Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Arystarcus
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2004, 11:48:59 PM »

Quote
The man went to a Protestant seminary in Egypt in 1997 and got his Master in Theology. In 1999 he got the Ph.D. in Theology. At that time, according to his own words, he totally rejected the Coptic Church but he went back to be a priest ( I do not know whether this is true or not, needs research. he might be lying about this too) and fooled the hierarchs so he can preach the Gospel to the Orthodox.

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It seems that the Protestant missions in Egypt are trying to infiltrate the Church from inside by using such tactics.

What a Christian example as to how to share your faith - lie, deceive and cheat your way into a Church and then try to use that to your advantage by sharing the supposed enlightenment and "true Christian faith" you have now received by throwing off the "shackles" of the True and Apostolic faith.   :cwm23:

Such actions are truly shameful and reprehensible and I do not understand how protestants could think that these tactics are the right way to go about things.

It surely isn't showing a very good example of their faith, now is it? :cwm10:

In Christ,
Aaron
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Tikhon29605
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2004, 04:46:33 PM »

As one who was a Lutheran for 20 years before I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, I was shocked and appalled by this radio program about this Coptic priest who left the Church and became a Lutheran pastor. I've been Orthodox for 10 years now, and I have no desire to return to Lutheranism.  When I listened to this fellow's "testimony" it struck me as quite shallow and superficial, both from his understanding of Coptic Orthodoxy and his understanding of Lutheranism.  In a nutshell, his main complaint is that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not Lutheran in theology. That's the jist of it.  He seems to be saddened and disappointed that the Coptics don't teach salvation by grace through faith ALONE.  And he also seems to have swallowed the Protestant Big Lie that if you go back early enough .... way early (perhaps to Saint Mark), that the Coptic Church really DID teach that (in other words, the Coptics were "Lutheran" in the First Century AD) but through the wicked "traditions of men" they corrupted the faith and turned it into "Orthodoxy."  Both from a historical and theological viewpoint that is absurd and ridiculous.  I'll wager that this fellow cannot even distinguish between proper Calvinist and Lutheran theology, as he attended a Presbyterian seminary in Egypt where most of the professors were Americans. I say this because of his low view of the Sacraments, which REAL LUTHERANS (in contrast to the Calvinists) believe are means of grace by which salvation is distributed to mankind, not empty signs or symbols.  Is this fellow even AWARE that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration or the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Has he ever read Luther's Small Catechism where Luther says we receive the Eucharist "for the forgiveness of sins, life and salvation"?  Does he know that Lutherans practice private confession and absolution, with the pastor laying his stole on the head of the penitent and absolving him, saying "In the stead and by the command of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I absolve you from all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" ?  I'll wager he doesn't know ANY of this.  Sounds to me like he's fallen for the typical Reformed propaganda of the Presbyterians that says Luther and Calvin were almost identical. While Luther was indeed Protestant, he was no Calvin, and is markedly different in many, though not all, aspects of his theology.
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Antonious Nikolas
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2004, 09:50:47 AM »

What a Christian example as to how to share your faith - lie, deceive and cheat your way into a Church and then try to use that to your advantage by sharing the supposed enlightenment and "true Christian faith" you have now received by throwing off the "shackles" of the True and Apostolic faith.   :cwm23:

Such actions are truly shameful and reprehensible and I do not understand how protestants could think that these tactics are the right way to go about things.

It surely isn't showing a very good example of their faith, now is it? :cwm10:

In Christ,
Aaron

I agree wholeheartedly.  Such actions seem to betray the hand of their author, the Adversary.
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2004, 11:42:05 AM »

Foreign missionaries as such are unfortunately not a new thing to Egypt.  Roman Catholic Jesuits and priests were guilty of just the same, trying to establish a foothold in Egypt, but to no avail.  A large cathedral in my home town of Tanta has recently been purchased for $9 million; it used to be the mainstay of an ever-decreasing Catholic community, heheh.  It's just a matter that our faithful be diligent and active against such infiltration.  We also need the prayers of our fellow Orthodox brethren as well.

Keep us in your prayers.
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2004, 07:42:08 PM »

We also need the prayers of our fellow Orthodox brethren as well.

Keep us in your prayers.

I have the utmost respect for the Coptic Orthodox Church, as I had said previously on the forum, if I hadn't been brought into Orthodoxy through the OCA, it would have been the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Of course I will keep my fellow Orthodox brothers and sister in Christ and the Most Holy Theotokos in my prayers!  Smiley

In Christ,
Aaron
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evergreen32
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2004, 01:08:56 AM »

I think this is a typical example of how it's possible to frame something in your own terms, to suit your own preconceptions of the world. It's like pouring water into a square container and saying, "See! I always knew water is square! I hate squares, that's why I don't like water!"

I'm so struck by this because I recently encountered a very similar situation among my Coptic Orthodox boyfriend's Lutheran family. They gave him a hard time about his keeping the Advent fast, making comments about how their church teaches salvation by grace and that such things as fasting are dangerous because Jesus condemned the Pharisees. Huh?!? Tongue What frustrated me the most is that they didn't even want to hear anything different. They had already settled in their minds what Orthodoxy is, ie "sort-of-Roman-Catholicism" just as this radio program taught it, and didn't want to learn a truth that might blow their preconceptions.

It is entirely possible for Orthodox to do the same sort of oversimplification, however, so it's all a cautionary tale to us.
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2004, 09:11:41 PM »

I think this is a typical example of how it's possible to frame something in your own terms, to suit your own preconceptions of the world. It's like pouring water into a square container and saying, "See! I always knew water is square! I hate squares, that's why I don't like water!"

I'm so struck by this because I recently encountered a very similar situation among my Coptic Orthodox boyfriend's Lutheran family. They gave him a hard time about his keeping the Advent fast, making comments about how their church teaches salvation by grace and that such things as fasting are dangerous because Jesus condemned the Pharisees. Huh?!? Tongue What frustrated me the most is that they didn't even want to hear anything different. They had already settled in their minds what Orthodoxy is, ie "sort-of-Roman-Catholicism" just as this radio program taught it, and didn't want to learn a truth that might blow their preconceptions.

I've come across that attitude a lot myself. It's very true that although you can point out the differents and make valid points to validate your beliefs they don't want to hear anything different because what they believe is correct and you are obviously in the wrong.


Quote
It is entirely possible for Orthodox to do the same sort of oversimplification, however, so it's all a cautionary tale to us.

How very true and an excellent point.

In Christ,
Aaron
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Sabbas
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2004, 09:58:05 PM »

This was a disgusting and badly planned propaganda speech by a heretic who cannot read scripture without tearing it to shreads so that he can sleep comfortably and assure himself that he is a good person because he has faith that Jesus Christ is his Saviour. Why do they persist in this heresy? Is St.James not clear enough?
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   20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
He seemed to me to be like a lot of Protestants who are obsessed with assuring themselves that they don't have to try and that even if they did it wouldn't really make any difference. That faith is membership card for Heaven that God gives us for free as long as we know the words to St.John 3:16. You'd be amazed at how few Protestants know WHO said these words. Most think it was St.John and not God himself? How little faith has paid off for them. It saddens me that this man who grew up in the Coptic faith thinks that all the Holy Fathers were fools compared to his 'divine revelations.' I know I'm preaching to the choir but I can't help but say it.

Quote
As one who was a Lutheran for 20 years before I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, I was shocked and appalled by this radio program about this Coptic priest who left the Church and became a Lutheran pastor. I've been Orthodox for 10 years now, and I have no desire to return to Lutheranism.  When I listened to this fellow's "testimony" it struck me as quite shallow and superficial, both from his understanding of Coptic Orthodoxy and his understanding of Lutheranism.  In a nutshell, his main complaint is that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not Lutheran in theology. That's the jist of it.  He seems to be saddened and disappointed that the Coptics don't teach salvation by grace through faith ALONE.  And he also seems to have swallowed the Protestant Big Lie that if you go back early enough .... way early (perhaps to Saint Mark), that the Coptic Church really DID teach that (in other words, the Coptics were "Lutheran" in the First Century AD) but through the wicked "traditions of men" they corrupted the faith and turned it into "Orthodoxy."  Both from a historical and theological viewpoint that is absurd and ridiculous.  I'll wager that this fellow cannot even distinguish between proper Calvinist and Lutheran theology, as he attended a Presbyterian seminary in Egypt where most of the professors were Americans. I say this because of his low view of the Sacraments, which REAL LUTHERANS (in contrast to the Calvinists) believe are means of grace by which salvation is distributed to mankind, not empty signs or symbols.  Is this fellow even AWARE that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration or the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Has he ever read Luther's Small Catechism where Luther says we receive the Eucharist "for the forgiveness of sins, life and salvation"?  Does he know that Lutherans practice private confession and absolution, with the pastor laying his stole on the head of the penitent and absolving him, saying "In the stead and by the command of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I absolve you from all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" ?  I'll wager he doesn't know ANY of this.  Sounds to me like he's fallen for the typical Reformed propaganda of the Presbyterians that says Luther and Calvin were almost identical. While Luther was indeed Protestant, he was no Calvin, and is markedly different in many, though not all, aspects of his theology.

You just told me a lot that I've never heard about Lutherans. Though I have just read you stating that they practice a form of confession I have never encountered a Lutheran church that does this and from what I know they do not believe it's a necessary Sacrament anyway. Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist seems to be a stretch if you are comparing it to what Orthodox believe. In fact up until the mid-twentieth century most Orthodox used the word transubstatiation to describe the Eucharist. This was the word used by the Orthodox when the Non-Jurors considered Orthodoxy and they were appalled that the Orthodox persisted in using transubstantiation to describe the Eucharist. Luther taught that the Eucharist has Christ's Presence by ubiquity? which seems very confusing. When I read the Marburg Colloquy I was even more confused and still cannot really understand what Luther really had in mind.
Out of curiosity what Lutheran branch were you a member of? I never knew some practice private confession.
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pharo of egypt
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2005, 04:23:43 PM »

I saw this on another forum. Comments?

"From Coptic Christianity to Lutheranism"
Rev. George Naeem" Biblical Orthodox Lutheran Mission

http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc4/Nov_15c.wma

interview is about 15 minutes into the program
Peace and Grace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Be with us all .... Amen.

I can't open this media link, anyone knows why? and what program is needed to view (or listen to)  this file.

Best Regards

God Bless

Pharo
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Beavis
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2005, 04:57:54 PM »

Peace and Grace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Be with us all .... Amen.

I can't open this media link, anyone knows why? and what program is needed to view (or listen to)ÂÂ  this file.

Best Regards

God Bless

Pharo


I DON'T KNOW
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 05:01:12 PM by Beavis » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2005, 11:06:36 AM »

I don't know the answer to Pharo's question.  Can't anyone else help him?   Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2005, 11:21:49 AM »

Pharo,

You would have needed Windows Media Player but it seems that they removed the original file from the site.  You might want to email them and ask them about it.

Anastasios
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2005, 11:42:32 AM »

I saw this on another forum. Comments?

"From Coptic Christianity to Lutheranism"
Rev. George Naeem" Biblical Orthodox Lutheran Mission

http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc4/Nov_15c.wma

interview is about 15 minutes into the program

We talked about this one already in another thread.    And I for the record am a convert in the opposite direction.  Lutheran to Charismatic to Coptic.    So it works both ways....


This interview is the kind of thing that could give me big problems.   My parents are Martin Luther's kind of Lutheran's very very pleased with their Faith and most certain that everybody else who disagrees with them is wrong.   Anyway during some fast seasons, my father insinuated some things already about me (like I'm tring to "earn my way into heaven").    Anyway I'm sure if they actually ran acrossed this, it would be deemed incontrovertible evidence, and they would send me a link or a print out to hopefully "Show me the light".


Personally I really had trouble listening to the program it was such a oversimplification/ spin/ and in many cases a complete misrepresentation that it made curse out loud repreatedly.    Which is a sin/ bad habit I'm trying to get over, so I just had to stop listening to it.    But it's been a long time since something got under my skin that much!    Because like others said it was such a "blatant piece of Propoganda".
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 04:30:22 AM »

Out of curiosity what Lutheran branch were you a member of? I never knew some practice private confession.

In America at least the Apostolic Lutherans (small jurisdictions like the ALC, OALC, LLC, FALC etc...) practice confession and emphasize it to such an extent that it may even be considered "necessary". I also think that many of them would not subscribe to the doctrine of "faith alone". Very "Catholic", indeed, but in some other regards, e.g. in liturgy, they are closer to the Calvinists (=presbyterians). 

Confession is also practiced to some extent by the Lutheran churches in Finland, Sweden and Norway, especially by certain sub-groups within the churches. Some of them even consider confession necessary in some cases before you can take part of the communion. I know of a Norwegian Lutheran priest who required a divoced woman to come to confession before she was given communion. However, such cases are quite rare.
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