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Author Topic: The Synod of Milan  (Read 10030 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 20, 2004, 12:13:20 AM »

Sometimes I lurk on the Indiana List where the infamous Reader Constantine has announced that he's now in the Milan Synod.  What is he talking about?  I didn't read all of the posts but got the impression it was western rite.  

Are they in communion with anyone else?  

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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2004, 01:52:36 AM »

DISCLAIMER: MY OPINION ONLY

While I sympathize with the Old Calendarists, I do not support the Milan Synod because it has strange origins, and was removed from the Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian in 1987.  After that time, it has picked up strange vagantes and has been in union with a breakaway Ukrainian group.  It has a very questionable bishop. All in all, I wouldn't suggest getting caught up in it.


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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2008, 01:52:49 AM »

For this feast of the Ascension, we were unfortunately stuck at home, a circumstance we are hoping will end soon. It gave me time to reflect, and remember that we need to be better Orthodox Christians, and I wanted to apologize to all on the list I have offended.

However, a book came in the mail today I was waiting for: Orthodox Prayers of Old England, compiled by Hieromonk Aidan (Keller), formerly of the Milan Synod, and currently a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  It is an impressive text, opening flat and designed to be easily read, 422 pages on thick paper with a complete index afterward.

While it has some minor differences with the typical language of the texts produced by St Gregory's Press, the liturgical arm of the Milan Synod's Eastern Archdiocese, it is surprisingly complete for a prayer-book.  This book is more than sufficient for an Orthodox Christian of the West "trapped in the desert"; it includes morning and evening prayers, the schema for the liturgical hours, both the Eastern and Western Eucharistic liturgies, Missa Sicca (dry mass, or typica), and more prayers than I have ever seen in a simple prayer book (it has prayers for everything from gossip to vermin infestations).  It contains a sanctoral, rules for fasts, confession, services for the sick and weddings, and even funerals.  It has the arrangement of the psalter and offices and compline for the Mother of God and the Guardian Angel, devotions, a Gaelic litany....  It is almost like a little Western "Book of Needs".  Prayers from a large number of pre-schism saints, including some I've never heard of until I saw this book.

I am very grateful to Father Aidan for producing this book, and I wholeheartedly recommend it.  I only had held it and seen it a couple of times a few years back; in my possession, I am a million times more amazed than before.

Thus, I can say a Missa Sicca of thanksgiving (p.368) Smiley


Brother please explain ,,what is your church,,what is the holy synod of milan im confused i never heard of it....is it eastern catholic,,roman catholic ..orthodox....Huh....SmileyCentral.com" border="0direct me to a web page so i can read about it ...thank you....Christ Has Risen...rejoice..
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2008, 01:56:08 AM »


Brother please explain ,,what is your church,,what is the holy synod of milan im confused i never heard of it....is it eastern catholic,,roman catholic ..orthodox....Huh....SmileyCentral.com" border="0direct me to a web page so i can read about it ...thank you....Christ Has Risen...rejoice..

Our American website is here: www.milansynodusa.org

Our jurisdiction is Orthodox, and was created by the True (Old Calendar) Orthodox Church of Greece in 1984.

*Not proselytizing, just answering a question*
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 01:56:53 AM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2008, 02:03:08 AM »

when you said old calender i love it allready..thank you brother for the info ill study it.....SmileyCentral.com" border="0is this part of the genuine old calender greek orthodox church....and i didn't even know of the genuine orthodox church till just recently......all these different names are confusing me to know end..i wonder what other autonomous orthodox churches i haven't heard of......
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 04:00:00 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2008, 02:27:37 AM »

For this feast of the Ascension, we were unfortunately stuck at home, a circumstance we are hoping will end soon. It gave me time to reflect, and remember that we need to be better Orthodox Christians, and I wanted to apologize to all on the list I have offended.

However, a book came in the mail today I was waiting for: Orthodox Prayers of Old England, compiled by Hieromonk Aidan (Keller), formerly of the Milan Synod, and currently a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  It is an impressive text, opening flat and designed to be easily read, 422 pages on thick paper with a complete index afterward.

While it has some minor differences with the typical language of the texts produced by St Gregory's Press, the liturgical arm of the Milan Synod's Eastern Archdiocese, it is surprisingly complete for a prayer-book.  This book is more than sufficient for an Orthodox Christian of the West "trapped in the desert"; it includes morning and evening prayers, the schema for the liturgical hours, both the Eastern and Western Eucharistic liturgies, Missa Sicca (dry mass, or typica), and more prayers than I have ever seen in a simple prayer book (it has prayers for everything from gossip to vermin infestations).  It contains a sanctoral, rules for fasts, confession, services for the sick and weddings, and even funerals.  It has the arrangement of the psalter and offices and compline for the Mother of God and the Guardian Angel, devotions, a Gaelic litany....  It is almost like a little Western "Book of Needs".  Prayers from a large number of pre-schism saints, including some I've never heard of until I saw this book.

I am very grateful to Father Aidan for producing this book, and I wholeheartedly recommend it.  I only had held it and seen it a couple of times a few years back; in my possession, I am a million times more amazed than before.

Thus, I can say a Missa Sicca of thanksgiving (p.368) Smiley

That book sounds great. Is it the Anglo-Saxon English saints and prayers that are in it?
It looks like they are in short supply they only made 100 copies yikes I better order one soon. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 03:51:26 AM »

For this feast of the Ascension, we were unfortunately stuck at home, a circumstance we are hoping will end soon. It gave me time to reflect, and remember that we need to be better Orthodox Christians, and I wanted to apologize to all on the list I have offended.

However, a book came in the mail today I was waiting for: Orthodox Prayers of Old England, compiled by Hieromonk Aidan (Keller), formerly of the Milan Synod, and currently a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  It is an impressive text, opening flat and designed to be easily read, 422 pages on thick paper with a complete index afterward.

While it has some minor differences with the typical language of the texts produced by St Gregory's Press, the liturgical arm of the Milan Synod's Eastern Archdiocese, it is surprisingly complete for a prayer-book.  This book is more than sufficient for an Orthodox Christian of the West "trapped in the desert"; it includes morning and evening prayers, the schema for the liturgical hours, both the Eastern and Western Eucharistic liturgies, Missa Sicca (dry mass, or typica), and more prayers than I have ever seen in a simple prayer book (it has prayers for everything from gossip to vermin infestations).  It contains a sanctoral, rules for fasts, confession, services for the sick and weddings, and even funerals.  It has the arrangement of the psalter and offices and compline for the Mother of God and the Guardian Angel, devotions, a Gaelic litany....  It is almost like a little Western "Book of Needs".  Prayers from a large number of pre-schism saints, including some I've never heard of until I saw this book.

I am very grateful to Father Aidan for producing this book, and I wholeheartedly recommend it.  I only had held it and seen it a couple of times a few years back; in my possession, I am a million times more amazed than before.

Thus, I can say a Missa Sicca of thanksgiving (p.368) Smiley

Brother your church is it western rite orthodox or eastern orthodox and old calender..or does it include both..eastern and western rites and old and new calender...i read the link you gave ,,i thank you for it....ill have to study it more to understand better....SmileyCentral.com" border="0Xpictoc Bockpece...Radujse
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 07:59:03 AM »

Brother your church is it western rite orthodox or eastern orthodox and old calender..or does it include both..eastern and western rites and old and new calender...i read the link you gave ,,i thank you for it....ill have to study it more to understand better....SmileyCentral.com" border="0Xpictoc Bockpece...Radujse

The Chiesa Ortodossa Autonoma dell'Europa Occidentale e delle Americhe - Sacra Metropolia di Milano ed Aquileia is Old Calendar, but both Eastern and Western in terms of the liturgical rites they perform.  My Uncle has a friend who is member, I think he attends the parish in Comm [Como].  The Liturgy is in the Slavic style, but served in Church Slavonic, Italian and Romanian.
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2008, 08:54:08 AM »

The Chiesa Ortodossa Autonoma dell'Europa Occidentale e delle Americhe - Sacra Metropolia di Milano ed Aquileia is Old Calendar, but both Eastern and Western in terms of the liturgical rites they perform.  My Uncle has a friend who is member, I think he attends the parish in Comm [Como].  The Liturgy is in the Slavic style, but served in Church Slavonic, Italian and Romanian.


Thank you Brother....Is it Part of the world wide Body of recognized old calender Orthodox Churches ,,If Not why Don't they unite with all the old calender autonomous Churches to Become greater and stronger,,,
 Does the Serbian orthodox old calender,the russian orthodox old calender,,the jerusalem patriarch old calender and others recognize them as a authentic apostolic old calender orthodox church...i hope im asking the right question....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2008, 09:00:51 AM »

Does the Serbian orthodox old calender,the russian orthodox old calender,,the jerusalem patriarch old calender and others recognize them as a authentic apostolic old calender orthodox church...i hope im asking the right question....

I don't know of any Orthodox Church (even the Old Calendar churches in resistance) who recognizes the Milan Synod.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2008, 09:09:45 AM »

Reader Joseph,

I reside in Temple Texas about 58 miles North of where  Archbishop Hilarion's monastery was located however since the departure of Father Aidan from the monastery, the information and communication from St Hilarion's Monastery and Press seems to have dried up completely.  I realize that it is not your diocese but can you provide an update on what is happening there.  I used to get many resources there on Western Orthodox Saints but that too is no longer available.  I get no responses from my requests to purchase their publications or get additional information. The viewing of your website did not give much information about them.

I woul appreciate an update on them. 

Thomas
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2008, 10:26:43 AM »

I don't know of any Orthodox Church (even the Old Calendar churches in resistance) who recognizes the Milan Synod.

Maybe some that came out of the Auxentios Synod?  No idea, I get so lost when I read about some of the Old Calendarist Churches and schisms.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2008, 11:11:53 AM »

The Chiesa Ortodossa Autonoma dell'Europa Occidentale e delle Americhe - Sacra Metropolia di Milano ed Aquileia is Old Calendar, but both Eastern and Western in terms of the liturgical rites they perform.  My Uncle has a friend who is member, I think he attends the parish in Comm [Como].  The Liturgy is in the Slavic style, but served in Church Slavonic, Italian and Romanian.

They also use the Ambrosian Rite there. If I understand correctly, the priest in Como has just been elevated to Bishop.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 11:23:52 AM »

Maybe some that came out of the Auxentios Synod?  No idea, I get so lost when I read about some of the Old Calendarist Churches and schisms.

I would like to respond with some points, and hopefully it will allow for some discussion with Joseph on some points about which I am unsure.

The way I understand it, the Milan Synod has a document signed by Archbishop Auxentios where he gives them some type of autonomy or autocephaly. I don't remember exactly which, but I am sure Joseph can fill in the blanks.

Archbishop Auxentios, however, was notorious for doing these types of things and it eventually led to him being deposed by our Synod.  He continued on as a bishop with his few supporters and interestingly enough, within 2-3 years had violated the canonical territory of these very same Milan bishops by establishing a new diocese in Western Europe (namely, the one that left ROCOR in France in 1987).

Further complicating matters is the Milan Synod's period of communion with the Kiev Patriarchate and its later acceptance of two Old Catholic bishops without allegedly reordaining them in 1997. I am unsure on that point so again perhaps Joseph can clarify. I would certainly be happy if these bishops were in fact corrected.

It is partly for the reasons above that other Old Calendarists are not in communion with the Milan Synod. Perhaps Joseph can explain from their point of view why they are not in communion with us.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 11:46:22 AM »

I don't know of any Orthodox Church (even the Old Calendar churches in resistance) who recognizes the Milan Synod.

We are recognized, as a matter of principle, by a number of hierarchs and Synods-- due to the fact that for the most part the Synod was uninvolved in a lot of what took place after 1984--- but are in formal communion with the TOC's Metropolia of Boetia in Greece, and that's it.

Having come from HOCNA, and then ROAC, I take the oh-so-unique view among Old Calendarists that it really doesn't matter if anyone recognizes us.  The truth matters-- not who on this earth believes us.

However, I should mention that the OCA received one of the Milan Synod's earliest hierarchs as a retired Bishop recently-- Abp Lazar (Puhalo, and frankly that's a consecration I think never should have happened either). Considering the other Bishop who assisted in his elevation was Metr Cyprian of Fili (before there really was an organized "Synod in Resistance"), I don't think your assertion is correct.  Not that it matters to me, but it does to some people.

Reader Joseph,

I reside in Temple Texas about 58 miles North of where  Archbishop Hilarion's monastery was located however since the departure of Father Aidan from the monastery, the information and communication from St Hilarion's Monastery and Press seems to have dried up completely.  I realize that it is not your diocese but can you provide an update on what is happening there.  I used to get many resources there on Western Orthodox Saints but that too is no longer available.  I get no responses from my requests to purchase their publications or get additional information. The viewing of your website did not give much information about them.

I woul appreciate an update on them. 

Thomas


Sure. St Hilarion's monastery is still there, but one of the properties had to be sold, and Metropolitan Hilarion is getting older.  Father Aidan was really a bulwark of the monastery, and when he left, a lot of it fell apart. Most of those attached now go to other Churches.  This still saddens me. Fr Aidan himself joined the ROCOR-- which, through a series of repeated contacts with ROCOR Synod Bishops (I confirmed this through a ROCOR priest), Ben Johnson of the AWRV destroyed hope of being either recieved or reordained, since he attacked when he heard either occurred--, and actually still publishes the St Hilarion books, save for the calendar, which he has not received a blessing to begin again.

However, his website, allmercifulsavior.com, has many of the books, and it also has a section on it called "Western Rite Culture" which contains a lot of that stuff, including the icon page.

And now onto our Father Deacon Anastasios.

I would like to respond with some points, and hopefully it will allow for some discussion with Joseph on some points about which I am unsure.

The way I understand it, the Milan Synod has a document signed by Archbishop Auxentios where he gives them some type of autonomy or autocephaly. I don't remember exactly which, but I am sure Joseph can fill in the blanks.

Autonomy, in 1984.

Archbishop Auxentios, however, was notorious for doing these types of things and it eventually led to him being deposed by our Synod.  He continued on as a bishop with his few supporters and interestingly enough, within 2-3 years had violated the canonical territory of these very same Milan bishops by establishing a new diocese in Western Europe (namely, the one that left ROCOR in France in 1987).

He never made another such Synod (HOCNA remained directly under his jurisdiction), remained in communion, though limited communication, with Milan until his death in 1994.  That diocese, which as I understand it had a level of spiritual control coming from HTM, later fell apart; its Bishop marrying the widow of a priest who died in a plane crash.

Further complicating matters is the Milan Synod's period of communion with the Kiev Patriarchate and its later acceptance of two Old Catholic bishops without allegedly reordaining them in 1997. I am unsure on that point so again perhaps Joseph can clarify. I would certainly be happy if these bishops were in fact corrected.

Absolutely. 1) They were in officialy communion with Patr Volydymr for one year, after the death of Abp Auxentius. As for Vl Hilarion and John, I have no problem telling you that what you were told was false.  Both the Bishops were corrected.

EDIT: I should make clear, however, that both American Bishops were not Old Catholic Bishops when they were accepted, and hadn't been for decades. They were part of the Ukrainian Church and then incorporated as the "Western Orthodox Synod" many, many years before they joined Milan, and were on the Old Calendar. 

It is partly for the reasons above that other Old Calendarists are not in communion with the Milan Synod. Perhaps Joseph can explain from their point of view why they are not in communion with us.

From the Milan Synod's point of view, the Church was granted an autonomous status in 1984, when the substantial majority of the TOC in Greece was under Archbishop Auxentios. We are perfectly willing to assist other Bishops in Greece, but at this point, almost twenty-five years later, what would it look like if we said "we are in communion with this or that Synod"?  Who are we to determine that?

That book sounds great. Is it the Anglo-Saxon English saints and prayers that are in it?
It looks like they are in short supply they only made 100 copies yikes I better order one soon. Smiley

Remember that the "Sarum rite" is not its own liturgy proper; it is a recension of the Roman usage. It is one ritual, with local variants. But yes, this has the Anglo-Saxon English saints, and many other Western saints, and the Eastern Divine Liturgy for when you need to follow a local Eastern parish. It's really quite a useful one-stop source for prayers; and I am comparing it to HTM's prayerbook, Jordanville's, and a few others. This is simply the most complete book I've seen, and the only one of its type without buying texts straight from the portfolium (which St Gregory's Press carries, but it is thirty volumes, and needs at least two to make a working office). It's worth every penny.
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 09:25:12 PM »


Brother please explain ,,what is your church,,what is the holy synod of milan im confused i never heard of it....is it eastern catholic,,roman catholic ..orthodox....Huh....SmileyCentral.com" border="0direct me to a web page so i can read about it ...thank you....Christ Has Risen...rejoice..

As I have read through this forum regarding The Synod of Milan the question keeps being raised 'What & Who is' The Synod of Milan? I hope to put this question to rest though feebly I might.

It must first be said that the Old Calendar movement in Greece has become quiet a mess due to multiple and over-lapping Genuine Orthodox Church (GOC) Synods as the fruits of much infighting and synodal implosions. All who know about the history of the Old Calendar Church of Greece will agree that Archbishop Auxentios and those with him were properly (canonically) elevated to the episcopate by the hierarchs of ROCOR. To begin, I must highlight the fact that in the 1970s the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece with Archbishop Auxentios as its Chief Hierarch has established an eparchy or diocese in Western Europe with Lisbon as its diocesan headquarters. This Western European Eparchy was composed of clergy and bishops of West European ethnicity.

Fortunately, on the Feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross (9/14 o.s.) 1984 --with the acknowledgment of his Synod-- Archbishop Auxentios, of blessed memory, gave to its Diocese in Western Europe a tomos (decree) of autonomy. Thereupon, the Western European Diocese of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Auxentian Synod) became a jurisdiction unto itself and was renamed, The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe hq'd in Lisbon. This all was "fortunately" as I stated above because Abp Auxentios' Synod unraveled by ill-gotten motives of his fellow hierarchs who left Abp Auxentios to start their own competing Synods after September 1984. The new GOC in Western Europe --being already autonomous-- was not effected by the implosion of the Auxentian Synod.

The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe had as its first Chief Hierarch Metropolitan Gabriel of Lisbon. For reasons unknown to me he left for the Church of Poland who accepted him in his orders. Those remaining in the Synod elected the current and second Chief Hierarch Metropolitan Evloghios of Milan. With his election the hq moved to Milan, Italy. Hence the "nick-name" 'Milan Synod' or 'Holy Synod of Milan'! This Metropolia continued to commemorate Abp Auxentios and the Synod he --out of necessity-- restored around himself. Meanwhile, The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe had good relations with the Ukrainian Patriarchal Church under its first leader Patriarch Mstyslav, of blessed memory. Upon his repose, Patriarch Volodomyr was elected and the Metropolia continued her relations with the Ukrainian Patriarchal Church. In the meantime, Abp Auxentios had reposed in the Lord. In this event, the Ukrainian Patriarchal Church issued the Milan Synod a second tomos of autonomy. But when Patr. Volodomyr reposed suddenly (many believe he was assassinated by poison) the current Patr Filiret took over. Now Patr Filiret had been deposed by Moscow & Constantinople plus was found to have been secretly married w/kids. In this light, the Metropolia aka Milan Synod stopped all relations with the Ukrainian Patriarchal Church. 

In 1998 I was told that The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe recently lost her bid to enter in communion with the Church of Georgia. Patr. Ilia had stated that he believed The Milan Synod to be the only canonical Old Calendar Church to have survived the various subsequent splintering of the GOC of Greece. So why did the Milan Synod & Church of Georgia not get together? Because at the eleventh hour the EP (as is typical of her) strong armed the CofG into denying Milan Synod request. Why would the EP care? Because of her ecumenical excesses. The Milan Synod (while being a bi-ritual jurisdiction) prominently represented a Western Orthodoxy in the backyard of Rome. This would make for bad ecumenical relations between Rome & the EP.

Since the Milan Synod has remained alone by necessity.  Why?  Because no other suitable jurisdiction or state (i.e., local)  Orthodox Church was present. Either one was extreme in their Traditionalist observance or too excessive in their ecumenical and syncretic observances. So the Milan Synod waits and watches until a local Orthodox synod repents from either direction in order to truly be faithful to Holy Tradition (i.e., inclusive of the Church's doctrines, and canons that we all call The Orthodox Faith).

Now for the America part of the story in brief. There was an Old Catholic Church in America that entered the Orthodox Church via the American Exarchate of the Russian Patriarchal Church (MP). Its leader was Metropolitan William who was named the Exarch of the Western Rite within the MP in the 1960s. This was all accomplished via the MP's American Exarch. Therefore the MP required Metr William to present himself in Moscow. Being during the Soviet era there was suspicion as to this requirement. Metr. William resigned from the MP and led his Church to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Exile under the leadership of Abp Palladios in communion with the EP. Those who know of the history of SCOBA know that Abp Palladios was one of its founders. Under the Ukrainian's spiritual protection, this Western Rite community was granted autocephaly (independence) that was recognized by the EP in 1967. In that same year Metr. William & Abp Palladios consecrated Abp Joseph of San Francisco. Abp Palladios reposed in 1969. In 1973, the EP & Rome declared their mutual recognition, at which time the Orthodox Synod for the Western Rite ceased any communications with the EP.  In 1977,  the Orthodox Synod for the Western Rite received the former Old Catholic Diocese of Texas and its leader bishop Hilarion was consecrated anew as Archbishop of Texas. You all know him from St. Hilarion Monastery in Austin, Texas. In 1979 Metr. William reposed and Abp Joseph was installed as Chief Hierarch. Archbishop John (a former Roman Catholic Jesuit) was named "locum Tenens" prior to Metr Joseph's repose in 1990. By 1997, what remained of the Orthodox Synod for the Western Rite was Abps John (Eastern USA) and Hilarion (Western USA). It was under Abp John's leadership as locum tenens that they entered the Milan Synod in 1997 and both American Hierarchs were accepted, with correction to their ordinations.

Several clergy and hierarchs have left the Milan Synod over the years while a majority of them were accepted in their orders (not reordained) by the accepting jurisdiction be they new or old calendarist.

I hope I have done justice to this very brief historical account and ask your forgiveness for my verbocity.

the unworthy monk,
Symeon
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 11:40:38 AM »

Thank you, PapaSymeon, for your post. Welcome to the forum.
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 02:30:03 PM »

Quote
All who know about the history of the Old Calendar Church of Greece will agree that Archbishop Auxentios and those with him were properly (canonically) elevated to the episcopate by the hierarchs of ROCOR.

Frankly, I can not fathom the logic of the above statement. It seem quite one thing to have bishop(s) "wall themselves off" over heresy issues and a church entering the canonical see of another and elevating bishops in an 'altar-to-altar' fashion. That in itself smacks of heresy and explicitly uncanonical.
In the above scenario we have a church created by a church so created itself becoming walled-off...from everyone. It boggles the mind.
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 01:03:20 AM »

I refer you to my response elsewhere on OC.net.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16324.msg247408.html#msg247408

I am willing to make any clarification if you care to write to me at stjohn"at"kellion"dot"org

yours in Christ,
Stavrophoremonk SYmeon

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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2008, 01:10:25 AM »

^ Brother, unless you like receiving spam, including e-mail addresses in message bodies is not a good idea.  E-mail addresses can be exchanged via PM.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2011, 08:49:32 AM »

In 1998 I was told that The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe recently lost her bid to enter in communion with the Church of Georgia. Patr. Ilia had stated that he believed The Milan Synod to be the only canonical Old Calendar Church to have survived the various subsequent splintering of the GOC of Greece......

Since the Milan Synod has remained alone by necessity.  Why?  Because no other suitable jurisdiction or state (i.e., local)  Orthodox Church was present. Either one was extreme in their Traditionalist observance or too excessive in their ecumenical and syncretic observances.


Father, the Milan Synod has tried to be accepted by many more other Churches
than simply Georgia.  If you are a newcomer to Milan you may not be aware
of the complete history of its attempts to unite with 7 of the ancient Patriarchates,
both Old Calendar and New Calendar.

The information below was supplied by Fr Aidan (Keller) who was secretary to
the Milan Archbishop Hilarion (Williams) of Austin Texas

The following applications were made by the bishops of the Milan Synod to
major Patriarchates and Local Churches of Orthodoxy in the years after 1997
and up to about 2002 or 2003. My memory is shaky on exact chronology.

1. Church of Constantinople

Milan's application to Constantinople occurred some years ago now.
Constantinople did a check on all of Milan's financial holdings, properties,
value of properties, and so forth. One bishop within that jurisdiction said
that the EP found insufficient "collateral" to make Milan of any interest to
them. During the negotiations one bishop, named Nektarios, went over to the
EP unilaterally. I don't know what became of him after that. If I recall,
the Vatican was very keen in protesting to the Phanar not to receive the
Milan Synod, but I don't think this protest was pivotal in the Phanar's
decision. After the negotiations fell through, Milan issued a strong
denunciation of the EP.

2. Church of Russia

Milan's application to the Moscow Patriarchate occurred before that to
Constantinople since Milan preferred old-calendar jurisdictions. Many in the
MP were favourable but also many were unfavourable. Moscow finally offered
to receive the Milan bishops in rank, but not as ruling bishops. This was
found unacceptable to the Milan bishops. After these negotiations fell
through, one Milan bishop, Marco of Genoa, published a derisive denunciation
of the MP.

3. Church of Bulgaria

These negotiations were among the most promising. The reception of the Milan
Synod as an autonomous or semi-autonomous metropolia under Sofia was
actually put on the agenda of the great sobor of the Bulgarian Church. The
Bulgarians were somewhat bewildered by the number of bishops Milan had per
capita, since the Bulgarian Church has extremely few bishops per capita.
However, the agenda item was placed at about item #100 (if I recall), near
the end of items, and so it was never brought up at that sobor, time
failing. Thus things fell through and Milan turned to other jurisdictions.

4. Church of Romania

These negotiations seemed fairly promising, and friendly "on-the-ground"
contacts were established with actual bishops and their faithful in Romania.
As a result, a Romanian convent sewed some very beautiful vestments for
Metr. Evloghios, and the presence of many Romanians in Milan Synod parishes
must have been something of interest to the Romanian Patriarchate.
Friendships were made. However, in the end nothing came of these
negotiations. Some of their bishops were very much in favour, some were very
much not in favour. I can't recall exactly why these ones failed. I know the
calendar issue was
discussed, Milan people being very keen to keep the old calendar, and I
think this hurdle was cleared. I don't remember what was the chief sticking
point, prob. autonomy.

5. Church of Serbia

These were very promising negotiations. There was a Bp. Luke [Serbian Bishop
of France] who was keenly interested in making a deal whereby, in one
stroke, both the Milan people and the people who were ECOF and were without
sponsorship, could together be received under the Serbian patriarchate, and
the more traditional Western rite people of Milan could have some oversight
over the WR people of France whose liturgical customs were more problematic.
Some of the Serbian bishops were enthusiastic about this, incl. the nephew
of St. Nikolai Velimirovich, a bishop John Velimirovitch. The other Serbian
bishops weren't as keen to make a bold move in France and in Milan, and the
Milan WR people actually
begged off being joined in any relationship to the ECOF people, since their
approaches to liturgy were so very different (also the calendar was a big
issue for the Milan people). In the end everything fell through entirely,
prob. over autonomy.

6. Church of Georgia

These were the most promising negotiations of all. Georgia had had internal
problems with Greek Old Calendarist entry into their geographic boundaries.
Some Georgian negotiators felt that by declaring Milan to be the authentic
descendant of Auxentios, while taking it under their wing, they could
prevent further 'poaching' by other GOC-ists. The more traditional-minded
Milan bishops were very pleased that Georgia had withdrawn from the WCC, an
organisation they abhorred, and negotiations went so far that
the Milan bishops actually had plane tickets to travel to Tbilisi and be
received under the Patriarchate. At the last minute the Phanar discovered
these plans, they made rather severe threats of censure against Georgia
should it receive Milan, and as a result the Georgian Church suddenly
withdrew its offer.

7. Church of Antioch

We should also not forget the Milan Synod's exploration of being received by
the Antiochian Patriarchate. The patriarchal representative who spoke to
Metr. Evloghios said that he knew the Milan Synod were pious Orthodox
Christians, but due to the fact that the Patriarchates counted Milan in the
number of "Slavic" or "Russian" churches culturally, and because the
Antiochian Patriarchate had a delicate role in stabilising problematic
relations between the Constantinople and Moscow Patriarchates, it would not
be possible for the Antiochian Patriarchate to assist the Milan Synod by
receiving them into their communion.

_____________________________________

8. Syriac Orthodox Church

This is a Monophysite Church and so an application from the Synod of
Milan is quite extraordinary.  It is no small thing for trhe Milan bishops
to be willing to jettison 4 of the Holy Ecumenical Councils.

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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2011, 01:29:08 PM »

In 1998 I was told that The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe recently lost her bid to enter in communion with the Church of Georgia. Patr. Ilia had stated that he believed The Milan Synod to be the only canonical Old Calendar Church to have survived the various subsequent splintering of the GOC of Greece......

Since the Milan Synod has remained alone by necessity.  Why?  Because no other suitable jurisdiction or state (i.e., local)  Orthodox Church was present. Either one was extreme in their Traditionalist observance or too excessive in their ecumenical and syncretic observances.


Father, the Milan Synod has tried to be accepted by many more other Churches
than simply Georgia.  If you are a newcomer to Milan you may not be aware
of the complete history of its attempts to unite with 7 of the ancient Patriarchates,
both Old Calendar and New Calendar.

The information below was supplied by Fr Aidan (Keller) who was secretary to
the Milan Archbishop Hilarion (Williams) of Austin Texas

The following applications were made by the bishops of the Milan Synod to
major Patriarchates and Local Churches of Orthodoxy in the years after 1997
and up to about 2002 or 2003. My memory is shaky on exact chronology.

1. Church of Constantinople

Milan's application to Constantinople occurred some years ago now.
Constantinople did a check on all of Milan's financial holdings, properties,
value of properties, and so forth. One bishop within that jurisdiction said
that the EP found insufficient "collateral" to make Milan of any interest to
them. During the negotiations one bishop, named Nektarios, went over to the
EP unilaterally. I don't know what became of him after that. If I recall,
the Vatican was very keen in protesting to the Phanar not to receive the
Milan Synod, but I don't think this protest was pivotal in the Phanar's
decision. After the negotiations fell through, Milan issued a strong
denunciation of the EP.

2. Church of Russia

Milan's application to the Moscow Patriarchate occurred before that to
Constantinople since Milan preferred old-calendar jurisdictions. Many in the
MP were favourable but also many were unfavourable. Moscow finally offered
to receive the Milan bishops in rank, but not as ruling bishops. This was
found unacceptable to the Milan bishops. After these negotiations fell
through, one Milan bishop, Marco of Genoa, published a derisive denunciation
of the MP.

3. Church of Bulgaria

These negotiations were among the most promising. The reception of the Milan
Synod as an autonomous or semi-autonomous metropolia under Sofia was
actually put on the agenda of the great sobor of the Bulgarian Church. The
Bulgarians were somewhat bewildered by the number of bishops Milan had per
capita, since the Bulgarian Church has extremely few bishops per capita.
However, the agenda item was placed at about item #100 (if I recall), near
the end of items, and so it was never brought up at that sobor, time
failing. Thus things fell through and Milan turned to other jurisdictions.

4. Church of Romania

These negotiations seemed fairly promising, and friendly "on-the-ground"
contacts were established with actual bishops and their faithful in Romania.
As a result, a Romanian convent sewed some very beautiful vestments for
Metr. Evloghios, and the presence of many Romanians in Milan Synod parishes
must have been something of interest to the Romanian Patriarchate.
Friendships were made. However, in the end nothing came of these
negotiations. Some of their bishops were very much in favour, some were very
much not in favour. I can't recall exactly why these ones failed. I know the
calendar issue was
discussed, Milan people being very keen to keep the old calendar, and I
think this hurdle was cleared. I don't remember what was the chief sticking
point, prob. autonomy.

5. Church of Serbia

These were very promising negotiations. There was a Bp. Luke [Serbian Bishop
of France] who was keenly interested in making a deal whereby, in one
stroke, both the Milan people and the people who were ECOF and were without
sponsorship, could together be received under the Serbian patriarchate, and
the more traditional Western rite people of Milan could have some oversight
over the WR people of France whose liturgical customs were more problematic.
Some of the Serbian bishops were enthusiastic about this, incl. the nephew
of St. Nikolai Velimirovich, a bishop John Velimirovitch. The other Serbian
bishops weren't as keen to make a bold move in France and in Milan, and the
Milan WR people actually
begged off being joined in any relationship to the ECOF people, since their
approaches to liturgy were so very different (also the calendar was a big
issue for the Milan people). In the end everything fell through entirely,
prob. over autonomy.

6. Church of Georgia

These were the most promising negotiations of all. Georgia had had internal
problems with Greek Old Calendarist entry into their geographic boundaries.
Some Georgian negotiators felt that by declaring Milan to be the authentic
descendant of Auxentios, while taking it under their wing, they could
prevent further 'poaching' by other GOC-ists. The more traditional-minded
Milan bishops were very pleased that Georgia had withdrawn from the WCC, an
organisation they abhorred, and negotiations went so far that
the Milan bishops actually had plane tickets to travel to Tbilisi and be
received under the Patriarchate. At the last minute the Phanar discovered
these plans, they made rather severe threats of censure against Georgia
should it receive Milan, and as a result the Georgian Church suddenly
withdrew its offer.

7. Church of Antioch

We should also not forget the Milan Synod's exploration of being received by
the Antiochian Patriarchate. The patriarchal representative who spoke to
Metr. Evloghios said that he knew the Milan Synod were pious Orthodox
Christians, but due to the fact that the Patriarchates counted Milan in the
number of "Slavic" or "Russian" churches culturally, and because the
Antiochian Patriarchate had a delicate role in stabilising problematic
relations between the Constantinople and Moscow Patriarchates, it would not
be possible for the Antiochian Patriarchate to assist the Milan Synod by
receiving them into their communion.

_____________________________________

8. Syriac Orthodox Church

This is a Monophysite Church and so an application from the Synod of
Milan is quite extraordinary.  It is no small thing for trhe Milan bishops
to be willing to jettison 4 of the Holy Ecumenical Councils.



I would be careful as to where you get your info from. Just recently there was a forgery letter being passed around on the internet supposedly from our Metropolitan which seemed to suggest that our Metropolitan was pro ecumenism. I do not have authority to speak for anybody but I can see that this list is deceptive. The Milan Synod would never jettison 4 of the Ecumenical Councils to try to have intercommunion with the Monophysite Church, which is ultimately why the talks between these two Churches failed. I've only had limited talks with others about some of these circumstances so I have no authority to speak, but I would suggest getting the other side of the story before coming to any conclusions about the Milan Synod if you are interested.
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2011, 01:42:57 PM »

I would be careful as to where you get your info from. Just recently there was a forgery letter being passed around on the internet supposedly from our Metropolitan which seemed to suggest that our Metropolitan was pro ecumenism. I do not have authority to speak for anybody but I can see that this list is deceptive. The Milan Synod would never jettison 4 of the Ecumenical Councils to try to have intercommunion with the Monophysite Church, which is ultimately why the talks between these two Churches failed. I've only had limited talks with others about some of these circumstances so I have no authority to speak, but I would suggest getting the other side of the story before coming to any conclusions about the Milan Synod if you are interested.

With the EA underway in Italy, do you think the Milan Synod would accept overtures to join a united autonomous or autocephalous Italian Church? I am not sure if the various jurisdictions in Italy have reached out to the Milan Synod to join, but it would be a wonderful witness to the RCs in Italy to see a united Orthodox Church there that also had Western Rite available. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2011, 01:51:43 PM »

This so-called Milan synod has not much credibility. I know from the Romanian media it has accepted within its ranks all sorts of de-frocked priests, monks that left or were expelled from monasteries for break of vows and refusal to live by the monastic rules and even made them "bishops". One of them is the so-called "Avondios of Como" a former monk of Romania.
They also deceptively prey on unsuspecting Romanian immigrants in Italy.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 01:53:11 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2011, 06:42:51 AM »

In 1998 I was told that The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe recently lost her bid to enter in communion with the Church of Georgia. Patr. Ilia had stated that he believed The Milan Synod to be the only canonical Old Calendar Church to have survived the various subsequent splintering of the GOC of Greece......

Since the Milan Synod has remained alone by necessity.  Why?  Because no other suitable jurisdiction or state (i.e., local)  Orthodox Church was present. Either one was extreme in their Traditionalist observance or too excessive in their ecumenical and syncretic observances.


Father, the Milan Synod has tried to be accepted by many more other Churches
than simply Georgia.  If you are a newcomer to Milan you may not be aware
of the complete history of its attempts to unite with 7 of the ancient Patriarchates,
both Old Calendar and New Calendar.

The information below was supplied by Fr Aidan (Keller) who was secretary to
the Milan Archbishop Hilarion (Williams) of Austin Texas

The following applications were made by the bishops of the Milan Synod to
major Patriarchates and Local Churches of Orthodoxy in the years after 1997
and up to about 2002 or 2003. My memory is shaky on exact chronology.

1. Church of Constantinople

Milan's application to Constantinople occurred some years ago now.
Constantinople did a check on all of Milan's financial holdings, properties,
value of properties, and so forth. One bishop within that jurisdiction said
that the EP found insufficient "collateral" to make Milan of any interest to
them. During the negotiations one bishop, named Nektarios, went over to the
EP unilaterally. I don't know what became of him after that. If I recall,
the Vatican was very keen in protesting to the Phanar not to receive the
Milan Synod, but I don't think this protest was pivotal in the Phanar's
decision. After the negotiations fell through, Milan issued a strong
denunciation of the EP.

2. Church of Russia

Milan's application to the Moscow Patriarchate occurred before that to
Constantinople since Milan preferred old-calendar jurisdictions. Many in the
MP were favourable but also many were unfavourable. Moscow finally offered
to receive the Milan bishops in rank, but not as ruling bishops. This was
found unacceptable to the Milan bishops. After these negotiations fell
through, one Milan bishop, Marco of Genoa, published a derisive denunciation
of the MP.

3. Church of Bulgaria

These negotiations were among the most promising. The reception of the Milan
Synod as an autonomous or semi-autonomous metropolia under Sofia was
actually put on the agenda of the great sobor of the Bulgarian Church. The
Bulgarians were somewhat bewildered by the number of bishops Milan had per
capita, since the Bulgarian Church has extremely few bishops per capita.
However, the agenda item was placed at about item #100 (if I recall), near
the end of items, and so it was never brought up at that sobor, time
failing. Thus things fell through and Milan turned to other jurisdictions.

4. Church of Romania

These negotiations seemed fairly promising, and friendly "on-the-ground"
contacts were established with actual bishops and their faithful in Romania.
As a result, a Romanian convent sewed some very beautiful vestments for
Metr. Evloghios, and the presence of many Romanians in Milan Synod parishes
must have been something of interest to the Romanian Patriarchate.
Friendships were made. However, in the end nothing came of these
negotiations. Some of their bishops were very much in favour, some were very
much not in favour. I can't recall exactly why these ones failed. I know the
calendar issue was
discussed, Milan people being very keen to keep the old calendar, and I
think this hurdle was cleared. I don't remember what was the chief sticking
point, prob. autonomy.

5. Church of Serbia

These were very promising negotiations. There was a Bp. Luke [Serbian Bishop
of France] who was keenly interested in making a deal whereby, in one
stroke, both the Milan people and the people who were ECOF and were without
sponsorship, could together be received under the Serbian patriarchate, and
the more traditional Western rite people of Milan could have some oversight
over the WR people of France whose liturgical customs were more problematic.
Some of the Serbian bishops were enthusiastic about this, incl. the nephew
of St. Nikolai Velimirovich, a bishop John Velimirovitch. The other Serbian
bishops weren't as keen to make a bold move in France and in Milan, and the
Milan WR people actually
begged off being joined in any relationship to the ECOF people, since their
approaches to liturgy were so very different (also the calendar was a big
issue for the Milan people). In the end everything fell through entirely,
prob. over autonomy.

6. Church of Georgia

These were the most promising negotiations of all. Georgia had had internal
problems with Greek Old Calendarist entry into their geographic boundaries.
Some Georgian negotiators felt that by declaring Milan to be the authentic
descendant of Auxentios, while taking it under their wing, they could
prevent further 'poaching' by other GOC-ists. The more traditional-minded
Milan bishops were very pleased that Georgia had withdrawn from the WCC, an
organisation they abhorred, and negotiations went so far that
the Milan bishops actually had plane tickets to travel to Tbilisi and be
received under the Patriarchate. At the last minute the Phanar discovered
these plans, they made rather severe threats of censure against Georgia
should it receive Milan, and as a result the Georgian Church suddenly
withdrew its offer.

7. Church of Antioch

We should also not forget the Milan Synod's exploration of being received by
the Antiochian Patriarchate. The patriarchal representative who spoke to
Metr. Evloghios said that he knew the Milan Synod were pious Orthodox
Christians, but due to the fact that the Patriarchates counted Milan in the
number of "Slavic" or "Russian" churches culturally, and because the
Antiochian Patriarchate had a delicate role in stabilising problematic
relations between the Constantinople and Moscow Patriarchates, it would not
be possible for the Antiochian Patriarchate to assist the Milan Synod by
receiving them into their communion.

_____________________________________

8. Syriac Orthodox Church

This is a Monophysite Church and so an application from the Synod of
Milan is quite extraordinary.  It is no small thing for trhe Milan bishops
to be willing to jettison 4 of the Holy Ecumenical Councils.




I would be careful as to where you get your info from.


Dear Searn,

If you look at message 64 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30779.msg494240/topicseen.html#msg494240

you will find a small amount of information from the Syriac Orthodox Church on Milan's desire to join them.
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »

In 1998 I was told that The Autonomous Metropolia of Western Europe recently lost her bid to enter in communion with the Church of Georgia. Patr. Ilia had stated that he believed The Milan Synod to be the only canonical Old Calendar Church to have survived the various subsequent splintering of the GOC of Greece......

Since the Milan Synod has remained alone by necessity.  Why?  Because no other suitable jurisdiction or state (i.e., local)  Orthodox Church was present. Either one was extreme in their Traditionalist observance or too excessive in their ecumenical and syncretic observances.


Father, the Milan Synod has tried to be accepted by many more other Churches
than simply Georgia.  If you are a newcomer to Milan you may not be aware
of the complete history of its attempts to unite with 7 of the ancient Patriarchates,
both Old Calendar and New Calendar.

The information below was supplied by Fr Aidan (Keller) who was secretary to
the Milan Archbishop Hilarion (Williams) of Austin Texas

The following applications were made by the bishops of the Milan Synod to
major Patriarchates and Local Churches of Orthodoxy in the years after 1997
and up to about 2002 or 2003. My memory is shaky on exact chronology.

1. Church of Constantinople

Milan's application to Constantinople occurred some years ago now.
Constantinople did a check on all of Milan's financial holdings, properties,
value of properties, and so forth. One bishop within that jurisdiction said
that the EP found insufficient "collateral" to make Milan of any interest to
them. During the negotiations one bishop, named Nektarios, went over to the
EP unilaterally. I don't know what became of him after that. If I recall,
the Vatican was very keen in protesting to the Phanar not to receive the
Milan Synod, but I don't think this protest was pivotal in the Phanar's
decision. After the negotiations fell through, Milan issued a strong
denunciation of the EP.

2. Church of Russia

Milan's application to the Moscow Patriarchate occurred before that to
Constantinople since Milan preferred old-calendar jurisdictions. Many in the
MP were favourable but also many were unfavourable. Moscow finally offered
to receive the Milan bishops in rank, but not as ruling bishops. This was
found unacceptable to the Milan bishops. After these negotiations fell
through, one Milan bishop, Marco of Genoa, published a derisive denunciation
of the MP.

3. Church of Bulgaria

These negotiations were among the most promising. The reception of the Milan
Synod as an autonomous or semi-autonomous metropolia under Sofia was
actually put on the agenda of the great sobor of the Bulgarian Church. The
Bulgarians were somewhat bewildered by the number of bishops Milan had per
capita, since the Bulgarian Church has extremely few bishops per capita.
However, the agenda item was placed at about item #100 (if I recall), near
the end of items, and so it was never brought up at that sobor, time
failing. Thus things fell through and Milan turned to other jurisdictions.

4. Church of Romania

These negotiations seemed fairly promising, and friendly "on-the-ground"
contacts were established with actual bishops and their faithful in Romania.
As a result, a Romanian convent sewed some very beautiful vestments for
Metr. Evloghios, and the presence of many Romanians in Milan Synod parishes
must have been something of interest to the Romanian Patriarchate.
Friendships were made. However, in the end nothing came of these
negotiations. Some of their bishops were very much in favour, some were very
much not in favour. I can't recall exactly why these ones failed. I know the
calendar issue was
discussed, Milan people being very keen to keep the old calendar, and I
think this hurdle was cleared. I don't remember what was the chief sticking
point, prob. autonomy.

5. Church of Serbia

These were very promising negotiations. There was a Bp. Luke [Serbian Bishop
of France] who was keenly interested in making a deal whereby, in one
stroke, both the Milan people and the people who were ECOF and were without
sponsorship, could together be received under the Serbian patriarchate, and
the more traditional Western rite people of Milan could have some oversight
over the WR people of France whose liturgical customs were more problematic.
Some of the Serbian bishops were enthusiastic about this, incl. the nephew
of St. Nikolai Velimirovich, a bishop John Velimirovitch. The other Serbian
bishops weren't as keen to make a bold move in France and in Milan, and the
Milan WR people actually
begged off being joined in any relationship to the ECOF people, since their
approaches to liturgy were so very different (also the calendar was a big
issue for the Milan people). In the end everything fell through entirely,
prob. over autonomy.

6. Church of Georgia

These were the most promising negotiations of all. Georgia had had internal
problems with Greek Old Calendarist entry into their geographic boundaries.
Some Georgian negotiators felt that by declaring Milan to be the authentic
descendant of Auxentios, while taking it under their wing, they could
prevent further 'poaching' by other GOC-ists. The more traditional-minded
Milan bishops were very pleased that Georgia had withdrawn from the WCC, an
organisation they abhorred, and negotiations went so far that
the Milan bishops actually had plane tickets to travel to Tbilisi and be
received under the Patriarchate. At the last minute the Phanar discovered
these plans, they made rather severe threats of censure against Georgia
should it receive Milan, and as a result the Georgian Church suddenly
withdrew its offer.

7. Church of Antioch

We should also not forget the Milan Synod's exploration of being received by
the Antiochian Patriarchate. The patriarchal representative who spoke to
Metr. Evloghios said that he knew the Milan Synod were pious Orthodox
Christians, but due to the fact that the Patriarchates counted Milan in the
number of "Slavic" or "Russian" churches culturally, and because the
Antiochian Patriarchate had a delicate role in stabilising problematic
relations between the Constantinople and Moscow Patriarchates, it would not
be possible for the Antiochian Patriarchate to assist the Milan Synod by
receiving them into their communion.

_____________________________________

8. Syriac Orthodox Church

This is a Monophysite Church and so an application from the Synod of
Milan is quite extraordinary.  It is no small thing for trhe Milan bishops
to be willing to jettison 4 of the Holy Ecumenical Councils.




I would be careful as to where you get your info from.


Dear Searn,

If you look at message 64 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30779.msg494240/topicseen.html#msg494240

you will find a small amount of information from the Syriac Orthodox Church on Milan's desire to join them.

Father Ambrose, What is interesting is how over the years you seem to have coordinated with the non-Chalcedonian folks in getting your "information". I am quite certain my info is accurate, since Metropolitan Evloghios, upon discovering that the non-Chalcedonians still did not accept the later councils of the Church, no longer wanted to continue the discussion.

The letter you point to is after the fact.

As I have confirmed many times the dates of discussions were not from "about '97-'02 or '03, but from 1999-2001. All this information is in my book, even though you pretend it's not. My book in its second edition is available free here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32291412/Mil-an-Synod-History-Rev-9132009

I am the first to admit that our Synod has made mistakes. But many of us are working hard to correct any mistakes that have been made in terms of administration. The fact that we are doing so, and effectively, has turned your previous amusement into an obsessive behavior, an utter terror that we now represent something you only pretend to represent: Traditional Orthodox Christia.

Between the Paradosis list, other Western rite lists and here, you have spent hundreds-- hundreds-- of man-hours trying to discredit the Autonomous Western Metropolia with the same old stuff that Fr Aidan had written soon after his departure and administrative mistakes long corrected. Doesn't the amount of time you've wasted on the Internet bother you?

In any case-- I believe, in the end, your efforts will fail, and I can't stop you, so feel free.
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 05:02:54 PM »

No, Father Deacon, I do not begrudge my time on the Internet since as a result of it 32 souls have been added to the holy Orthodox Church.  I am actually grateful to Almighty God that depite my illness which sometimes keeps me housebound I have some work to do on the Net for His glory and the salvation of souls.

In the matter of Milan, 5 priests from Milan have entered the Russian Orthodox Church in the last 3 or 4 years.

This is something for which both YOU and I may claim a modicum of credit.

I may claim some credit since these priests have been in touch with me and I have been able to assist them on their journey.

You may claim some credit since, for some of them, one of their reasons for departing Milan is your good self and the new type of Milan which you are working to bring into existence.  This something different from the Milan they knew and it makes them uneasy.
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 05:15:11 PM »

 Searn777 has kindly provided us with the address of the new official Milan website.
 http://www.metropoliadimilano.it/   

At the bottom of the page there is an item in English.  Reading it, we see that Milan has had contact with SIX Orthodox Churches and Milan claims these six Orthoodx Churches as "canonical  Sister Orthodox Churches."  It is there in black and white in that exact phrase.

With European Milan we appear to be light years away from the atmosphere of Milan-USA.

The six Churches are:

1. Serbian Orthodox Church

2. Russian Orthodox Patriarchate

3. Romanian Orthodox Church

4. Orthodox Church of Poland

5. Greek Orthodox (Constantinople)

6. Orthodox Church in America

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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 05:29:27 PM »

Searn777 has kindly provided us with the address of the new official Milan website.
 http://www.metropoliadimilano.it/   

At the bottom of the page there is an item in English.  Reading it, we see that Milan has had contact with SIX Orthodox Churches and Milan claims these six Orthoodx Churches as "canonical  Sister Orthodox Churches."  It is there in black and white in that exact phrase.

With European Milan we appear to be light years away from the atmosphere of Milan-USA.

The six Churches are:

1. Serbian Orthodox Church

2. Russian Orthodox Patriarchate

3. Romanian Orthodox Church

4. Orthodox Church of Poland

5. Greek Orthodox (Constantinople)

6. Orthodox Church in America


Aww bummer! My Church (Church of Bulgarai) isn't on there.  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 05:49:34 PM »

Searn777 has kindly provided us with the address of the new official Milan website.
 http://www.metropoliadimilano.it/  

At the bottom of the page there is an item in English.  Reading it, we see that Milan has had contact with SIX Orthodox Churches and Milan claims these six Orthoodx Churches as "canonical  Sister Orthodox Churches."  It is there in black and white in that exact phrase.

With European Milan we appear to be light years away from the atmosphere of Milan-USA.

The six Churches are:

1. Serbian Orthodox Church

2. Russian Orthodox Patriarchate

3. Romanian Orthodox Church

4. Orthodox Church of Poland

5. Greek Orthodox (Constantinople)

6. Orthodox Church in America



The document is a few years old, and more importantly, it was written because
one of our clergy had been reordained upon leaving our Church-- this letter was
a defensive letter. Metropolitan Evloghios is very clear that he has always
considered such acts a sacrilege.

That said, it is not clear how much longer that will remain on the new site
thanks to your question. Certainly we can be sure that because of your requests
for clarification, more clarification is what you'll get.

In Christ,
Deacon Joseph

Aww bummer! My Church (Church of Bulgarai) isn't on there.  Tongue
In Christ,
Andrew

We are in communion with the Old Calendar Bulgarian Alternative Synod. You may see that listed here among our sister Churches.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 06:02:40 PM »

This is just a list of those Church with which Milan has had contact over the transfer of bishops and priest.

On another webpage Milan lists ALL the canonical Churches as its Sister Churches and you are included there.

PATRIARCATO DI BULGARIA

Primate: Sua Santità il Metropolita di Sofia e Patriarca di tutta la
Bulgaria K. K. Maxim I.


Please click on   www.orthodoxchristians.eu

 Click on  "CHIESE ORTODOSSE/ ORTHODOX CHURCHES" in the right hand
column.

Please notet that this is designated at the DITTICI (diptychs) and Milan includes itself there.

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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 06:04:51 PM »

This is just a list of those Church with which Milan has had contact over the transfer of bishops and priest.
On another webpage Milan lists ALL the canonical Churches as its Sister Churches and you are included there.
PATRIARCATO DI BULGARIA
Primate: Sua Santità il Metropolita di Sofia e Patriarca di tutta la
Bulgaria K. K. Maxim I.

Not official diptychs. Covered on another list.

We are in communion with the Old Calendar Bulgarian Alternative Synod. You may see that listed here among our sister Churches.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2011, 06:16:19 PM »

This is just a list of those Church with which Milan has had contact over the transfer of bishops and priest.
On another webpage Milan lists ALL the canonical Churches as its Sister Churches and you are included there.
PATRIARCATO DI BULGARIA
Primate: Sua Santità il Metropolita di Sofia e Patriarca di tutta la
Bulgaria K. K. Maxim I.

Not official diptychs. Covered on another list.

We are in communion with the Old Calendar Bulgarian Alternative Synod. You may see that listed here among our sister Churches.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

This is NOT a website of your Church.

It appears to that of some obscure Greek Old Calendarist group which came into existence only 2 or 3 years ago.   I would not put too much emphasis in anything it places on the Web.
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2011, 06:20:04 PM »

This is NOT a website of your Church.

It is a website of our Sister Church.

Quote
It appears to that of some obscure Greek Old Calendarist group which came into existence only 2 or 3 years ago.   I would not put too much emphasis in anything it places on the Web.

I would, considering with the exception of Metropolitan Anghelos and now Metropolitan Chrysostomos, all of the Bishops were consecrated with the assistance of our Metropolitan and Synod.

These are our sister Churches.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2011, 06:21:31 PM »

The document is a few years old, and more importantly, it was written because
one of our clergy had been reordained upon leaving our Church-- this letter was
a defensive letter. Metropolitan Evloghios is very clear that he has always
considered such acts a sacrilege.

That said, it is not clear how much longer that will remain on the new site
thanks to your question. Certainly we can be sure that because of your requests
for clarification, more clarification is what you'll get.


What you have written seems tantamount to accusing your bishops of lying when they claim that these six canonical Churches are their "canonical Sister Orthodox Churches."
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2011, 06:24:41 PM »

The document is a few years old, and more importantly, it was written because
one of our clergy had been reordained upon leaving our Church-- this letter was
a defensive letter. Metropolitan Evloghios is very clear that he has always
considered such acts a sacrilege.

That said, it is not clear how much longer that will remain on the new site
thanks to your question. Certainly we can be sure that because of your requests
for clarification, more clarification is what you'll get.


What you have written seems tantamount to accusing your bishops of lying when they claim that these six canonical Churches are their "canonical Sister Orthodox Churches."

Not at all. We know that they are the "canonical Orthodox" in the same way they are the "official Orthodox".

Our canonical, sister Orthodox Churches are here.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

As a clergyman of same Synod, I've now said this three times. I would hope that your consistent misrepresentation be observed by the moderators.
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2011, 06:32:52 PM »

The document is a few years old, and more importantly, it was written because
one of our clergy had been reordained upon leaving our Church-- this letter was
a defensive letter. Metropolitan Evloghios is very clear that he has always
considered such acts a sacrilege.

That said, it is not clear how much longer that will remain on the new site
thanks to your question. Certainly we can be sure that because of your requests
for clarification, more clarification is what you'll get.


What you have written seems tantamount to accusing your bishops of lying when they claim that these six canonical Churches are their "canonical Sister Orthodox Churches."

Not at all. We know that they are the "canonical Orthodox" in the same way they are the "official Orthodox".

Our canonical, sister Orthodox Churches are here.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

As a clergyman of same Synod, I've now said this three times. I would hope that your consistent misrepresentation be observed by the moderators.
Isn't most of the Bulgarian Church Old Calendar anyway (I know nearly all of it, or perhaps all of it is in the US)? Why not just enter into communion with us? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2011, 06:35:22 PM »

This is NOT a website of your Church.

It is a website of our Sister Church.

Quote
It appears to that of some obscure Greek Old Calendarist group which came into existence only 2 or 3 years ago.   I would not put too much emphasis in anything it places on the Web.

I would, considering with the exception of Metropolitan Anghelos and now Metropolitan Chrysostomos, all of the Bishops were consecrated with the assistance of our Metropolitan and Synod.

These are our sister Churches.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

Perhaps they are your uncanonical Sister Churches (?) but we have a very clear statement on your official website of six canonical Churches which are your "canonical Sister Orthodox Churches."

 http://www.metropoliadimilano.it/   


Please see the Statement in English at the bottom of the page.   

The six Churches are:

1. Serbian Orthodox Church

2. Russian Orthodox Patriarchate

3. Romanian Orthodox Church

4. Orthodox Church of Poland

5. Greek Orthodox (Constantinople)

6. Orthodox Church in America

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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2011, 06:39:59 PM »

Irish Hermit: Why do you care what these schismatics write? It's quite common fr such groups to seem to associate with the mainstream Churches despite having no connection to them.

BTW isn't the Bulgarian Alternative Synod New Calendar too? They schismed many years after the calendar switching.
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2011, 06:41:57 PM »

This is NOT a website of your Church.

It is a website of our Sister Church.

Quote
It appears to that of some obscure Greek Old Calendarist group which came into existence only 2 or 3 years ago.   I would not put too much emphasis in anything it places on the Web.

I would, considering with the exception of Metropolitan Anghelos and now Metropolitan Chrysostomos, all of the Bishops were consecrated with the assistance of our Metropolitan and Synod.

These are our sister Churches.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

Perhaps they are your uncanonical Sister Churches (?) but we have a very clear statement on your official website of six canonical Churches which are your "canonical Sister Orthodox Churches."

 http://www.metropoliadimilano.it/   

That's four times. Those churches are sister churches to each other.

WE ARE NOT IN COMMUNION WITH ANY OF THOSE CHURCHES.

Stop lying.

Please.
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« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2011, 06:43:19 PM »

The document is a few years old, and more importantly, it was written because
one of our clergy had been reordained upon leaving our Church-- this letter was
a defensive letter. Metropolitan Evloghios is very clear that he has always
considered such acts a sacrilege.

That said, it is not clear how much longer that will remain on the new site
thanks to your question. Certainly we can be sure that because of your requests
for clarification, more clarification is what you'll get.


What you have written seems tantamount to accusing your bishops of lying when they claim that these six canonical Churches are their "canonical Sister Orthodox Churches."

Not at all. We know that they are the "canonical Orthodox" in the same way they are the "official Orthodox".

Our canonical, sister Orthodox Churches are here.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

As a clergyman of same Synod, I've now said this three times. I would hope that your consistent misrepresentation be observed by the moderators.

The misrepresentation, although unintentional, seems to be on your side.  The Statement from Milan is clear that these six Churches are seen as Milan's Sister Churches.

The Statement is also very clear that Milan OFFICIALLY by way of Canonical Releases has authorised its bishops and priests to transfer to these six Churches.   Would Milan give Canonical Releases for its clergy to transfer to false Churches?  That is scarcely imaginable.
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« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2011, 06:45:08 PM »

BTW isn't the Bulgarian Alternative Synod New Calendar too? They schismed many years after the calendar switching.

Actually, I think it was about four years. I'd have to check.

The Bulgarian GOC with which we are in communion formed due to a pending split that was occurring over the past couple of years in the Bulgarian Alternative Synod.

Metropolitan Anghelos offered to assist in the consecration of Bishops for the majority, provided that they returned to the Old Calendar.

That is how the Synod formed.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 08:12:37 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2011, 06:47:26 PM »

Irish Hermit: Why do you care what these schismatics write?

I have had a strong interest in Milan for about 10 years and have helped guide a small number of its priests into the fulness of Orthodoxy.

But we should leave off this topic because this section is devoted to Liturgy and none of this concerns Liturgy.
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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2011, 06:50:13 PM »

Quote
Our canonical, sister Orthodox Churches are here.
http://metropolsynodgoc.blogspot.com/p/ecclcommunion.html

As a clergyman of same Synod, I've now said this three times. I would hope that your consistent misrepresentation be observed by the moderators.

The misrepresentation, although unintentional, seems to be on your side.  The Statement from Milan is clear that these six Churches are seen as Milan's Sister Churches.

The statement is old. I have now repeated, as a clergyman of the Milan Synod, to stop lying. This is really just harrassing behavior. You hope I will stop responding so that you can claim some sort of twisted victory, and hidden the truth.

I hope the moderating team reviews this series of postings.

You may not like our Synod, you may despise us 'schismatics', but lying is a sin. No matter how horrible we may be to you, you don't have a moral right to lie about us or anyone else to denigrate us.
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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2011, 07:11:31 PM »

I believe this discussion should stop because it is the Liturgy section where it does not belong.

I am not sure of the Forum's policy with regard to posting from Milan Synod members?  Raffa is under restriction because the Assyrian Church of the East is not assessed by the Moderators as an Orthodox Church.  I presume they have had no occasion to assess the Synod of Milan but maybe, if this discussion  is to continue on the forum,  they should determine in which section of the forum it is permissable.
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