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Author Topic: Transgender ordination  (Read 1135 times) Average Rating: 0
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primuspilus
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« on: July 10, 2012, 11:18:44 AM »

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/episcopal-bishops-approve-trial-blessing-for-gay-couples-clear-the-way-for-transgender-ordination/

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(The Blaze/AP) — Episcopal bishops approved an official prayer service for blessing same-sex couples Monday at a national convention that also cleared the way for transgender ordination
I dont quote this idiot's website very often, but I could not pass this up. Thoughts?

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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 12:03:25 PM »

Hey Gebre, does this count as Babylon?

If so, may I quote Gebre in saying that what Babylon does is it's own business.  Many of these fringe Protestant sects** I have my doubts if they are even Christian.  Wolves in sheep's clothing, more like.



**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 12:08:28 PM »

**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".

Well...
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primuspilus
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 12:58:04 PM »

 laugh
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 01:29:34 PM »

**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".

Well...

They have historical precedent.  They were a national Church.  And furthermore, they were started with the best of intentions...  Ok, well scratch that last part.
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 01:40:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

(a) I applaud the Episcopalians, the Anglicans, and many other such Protestant groups for their sincere and wonderful efforts towards mutual tolerance, inclusion, and fellowship between diverse communities.  Christ asked us all to love each other, to fellowship with each other, aside from self-righteous distinctions. That means that folks outside Christianity need to be humble enough to explore it, and Christians need to be humble enough to avoid pointing fingers all the time.  

However, that being said

(b) Surely we can develop an attitude of tolerance, mutual respect, and fellowship without inherently changing the Church.  Why do transgender folks needs to be ordained in the first place? Being laity is simply not good enough? Pride and vanity are not good traits for clergy.  The same with Sacramental gay marriage (I support civil/secular gay marriage, just not within the Church), why does homosexual marriage need to be Sacramentally blessed and ordained? If homosexual folks want to go to Church, they have to expect Church to change them, like it does the rest of us, and not to change the Church.  That is precisely the problem with Protestantism, its ontology is quite literally backwards.  WE ARE ALL SINNERS, PERIOD.  There is simply no way around that.  We in the Church simply then have NO RIGHT to cast stones or point fingers at other peoples' sins, be they inside or outside the Church.  We come to Church to be changed, renewed, reconciled by changing ourselves every day for God.  Protestants on the other hand, always seem more content to change their churches then to change themselves.  That is the problem.  So I am not concerned with our Protestant churches change and evolve, as these by their ideology are inherently unstable.  We in the Church need to learn to be more socially inclusive, more tolerant, more respectful, more loving to those outside the Church, especially those who are homosexual or just heterosexually promiscuous (i.e., in relationships but not married) because it is not our business to force their lives to adjust to us.  Only God can do that,  We however as a supportive community could do a lot better to help people grow, mature, and heal through love.  We should be nice and open to each other, embracing and accepting especially of our faults.  Homosexuals are sinners, true, but we can't close the door in their faces for that.  So we need to create an environment that is more inviting.  However, I think those who change their churches in this process are going too fast.  We can change our attitude, our approach, without changing our Church. We can be tolerant and loving and inviting in our interactions with folks, without having to change our own structure.  After all, I rarely here homosexuality or adultery brought up in the Church in the first place, so why do we throw it around in other peoples' faces as if it were a daily issue in our parishes.  The simple truth is its not, and we could afford then to just be a bit nicer, though I would say that folks from the OP churches are being just a bit too nice Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 01:42:21 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 01:58:03 PM »

**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".

Well...

They have historical precedent.  They were a national Church.  And furthermore, they were started with the best of intentions...  Ok, well scratch that last part.

And the Episcopal Church is...

 angel
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 01:59:04 PM »

The canons against ordination voluntary eunuchs should answer this question.
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 02:05:37 PM »

The canons against ordination voluntary eunuchs should answer this question.
To quote my priest, "Episcopalian "church"? HA! They're little more than a pagan sect!"

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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 02:59:58 PM »

**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".

Well...

They have historical precedent.  They were a national Church.  And furthermore, they were started with the best of intentions...  Ok, well scratch that last part.

And the Episcopal Church is...

 angel

Look, I'm not trying to be logical here.  If you want that sort of thing you'll be outta luck!   Angry



 Wink
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 03:26:23 PM »

**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".

Well...

They have historical precedent.  They were a national Church.  And furthermore, they were started with the best of intentions...  Ok, well scratch that last part.

And the Episcopal Church is...

 angel

Look, I'm not trying to be logical here.  If you want that sort of thing you'll be outta luck!   Angry



 Wink

No, no, this is the first post you've made on this thread that I agree with. I love me some illogic!  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 09:52:20 PM »

This world is so screwed up.
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 09:56:08 PM »

**FWIW, I consider pretty much everyone besides the Lutherans and Anglicans to be "fringe Protestant sects".

Well...

They have historical precedent.  They were a national Church.  And furthermore, they were started with the best of intentions...  Ok, well scratch that last part.

Their cathedral in Washington is kind of nice. And there's that one in New York that they never finish working on. So, two things.  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 09:59:04 PM »

Not sure why the convention/house of bishops would have to specifically take up a resolution on ordaining transgender people. Did they have a previous bylaw against it?

Identity politics is the height of liberal bourgeois decadence.
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »

Their cathedral in Washington is kind of nice. And there's that one in New York that they never finish working on. So, two things.  Wink

They can't catch a break.  Even the National Cathedral is covered in scaffolding (from last year's earthquake).   Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 10:28:03 PM »

Not sure why the convention/house of bishops would have to specifically take up a resolution on ordaining transgender people. Did they have a previous bylaw against it?

Identity politics is the height of liberal bourgeois decadence.

Bylaws mean nothing when you can vote on it again a few years later (after you've had all the dissenting bishops defrocked for abandoning the communion for supplying dissenting views in court cases).
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2012, 11:49:39 PM »

This world is so screwed up.
And confused.  This sort of thing is what helped me to realize how far "Christianity" has fallen and helped me to yearn for the Church Jesus made for us.

Someone once told me modern Christianity is a religion, he would rather have ancient faith.  It makes sense to me.
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 02:52:27 AM »

Day after day the Anglican/Episcopian Church becomes more and more of an absolute joke. How can people honestly belong to these Churches?
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 04:02:10 AM »

Day after day the Anglican/Episcopian Church becomes more and more of an absolute joke. How can people honestly belong to these Churches?
The Anglican Church is a good place to stay while you figure things out.  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 05:02:01 AM »

Hey Gebre, does this count as Babylon?

If so, may I quote Gebre in saying that what Babylon does is it's own business. 


Glad at leat somebody is listening. Wink

But seriously... the crazier the world around us gets, the clearer the truth of Christ and His true Church becomes. It is not our job to try and preserve the morality within Protestant churches. It is better to let the inevitable seeds of Protestant heresy sprout their foul fruit so that there will be a clear distinction between truth and error. When Protestants ring their hands about the immorality and evils that plague their churches, our response to them should simply be, "Come out of Babylon and come into the true fold of Christ."


Selam

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 10:58:37 AM »

Not sure why the convention/house of bishops would have to specifically take up a resolution on ordaining transgender people. Did they have a previous bylaw against it?

Identity politics is the height of liberal bourgeois decadence.

Bylaws mean nothing when you can vote on it again a few years later (after you've had all the dissenting bishops defrocked for abandoning the communion for supplying dissenting views in court cases).

This isn’t the first time the topic of transgender Episcopal clergy has come up here.

Anyway, out of some perverse curiosity, I decided to look into this last night, and what the convention did was not so much approve the ordination of transgender clergy as it was to slightly alter the wording in a specific canon so that it explicitly states that sexual identity is not, in and of itself, a reason an aspirant can be denied ordination. In other words, it is not an approval of something new (as noted by the thread above) inasmuch as it is an expansion of an existing practice.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:59:16 AM by Agabus » Logged

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