Author Topic: The Original Church?  (Read 5255 times)

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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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The Original Church?
« on: July 09, 2012, 06:24:08 PM »
Often it is said that the Orthodox Church is the original church. However how can we be certain of this? Where is the proof to this claim made without evidence? This is by no means an unreasonable question. Everyone will claim to be the original and true church.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 06:36:22 PM by Studying_Orthodoxy »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 06:40:59 PM »
Often it is said that the Orthodox Church is the original church. However how can we be certain of this? Where is the proof to this claim made without evidence? This is by no means an unreasonable question. Everyone will claim to be the original and true church.

Please define "original".   Do you mean original in practice, original in apostolic succession, original in worship, original in teaching, etc...?
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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 06:44:48 PM »
Yes, in essence, the first church as it existed in the time of Christ.

Offline biro

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 06:48:34 PM »
Often it is said that the Orthodox Church is the original church. However how can we be certain of this? Where is the proof to this claim made without evidence? This is by no means an unreasonable question. Everyone will claim to be the original and true church.

Why do you say there's no evidence?
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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 06:52:34 PM »
If there is then what is it? Why should I not believe others?

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 06:55:59 PM »
[edit]
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 06:56:19 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline biro

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 06:58:25 PM »
If there is then what is it? Why should I not believe others?

They don't have churches that are hundreds of years old. They don't have catacombs filled with images of the saints. They don't have historians of the period that back them up.

Sometimes evangelicals just seem to wish away or revise anything they don't like. That's not how it works.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 07:05:44 PM »
Often it is said that the Orthodox Church is the original church. However how can we be certain of this? Where is the proof to this claim made without evidence? This is by no means an unreasonable question. Everyone will claim to be the original and true church.

We claim to be the historical continuity of the original Church founded by Christ through His apostles who entrusted it's care to bishops. We also claim to hold the beliefs held by that original community, which we claim to be the historical continuation of, as those beliefs have been handed down throughout the centuries. The answer is in history. Protestants reject being a continuation of the church they broke away from. The answer to who has best preserved the faith among the groups that can trace their historical continuation back to Christ through the apostles can only be found by looking at their faithfulness to transmitting the original faith by looking at the means by which doctrine has been taught, clarified, and expressed throughout the centuries. Where there are subastantial differences in belief between these communions of churches, we claim to have been the most faithful.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Shiny

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 07:21:12 PM »
I think we need to look at "The faith that has once delivered to all the saints" and if that faith has been unchanged for two thousand years to now. Now I'm sure there will be objections to me saying the Orthodox has unchanged its faith, but I think the sort of "doctrinal development" you see is more or less an elaboration of the faith. But the faith has remained the same.

That being said, we do know in history that the Apostolic Fathers (those being St. Clement of Rome, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St Ignatius of Antioch) were all bishops. These episkopos are successors to the Apostles in the Church. So if we know the Church had bishops, and there is this apostolic succession as we see from the Apostolic Fathers, then there must be some sort of unity and continuity over time. There are a few Churches that claim they are the original one, but can one Church claim true apostolic succession from today all the way back to the Apostles and Christ? I believe only the Orthodox Church can rightly make that claim, and as we saw from the Great Schism, only one See (that of Rome) schismed from the other sees of the Church (a see being the office of the presiding bishop of a jurisdiction, who is called a primate). I won't get into the nature of the schism and why it happened, but from my research there were innovations made by the see of Rome and thereafter that I would not consider to be wholly "orthodox" in faith.

For most people, I believe Church History plays an important role in seeing that the Church had an established heirachy of bishops, preists, deacons, etc and that it had councils, and also at the center of this, which is attested throughout the saints of the Church is the belief in the Eucharist, the real body and blood of Christ. If you take all of these things into account, as well as the deposit of faith that hasn't been changed, I can't find any other Church that doesn't match that but the Orthodox Church.

Sorry if this is such a grandiose overview, because this can get really detailed in the minutaie, but I hope that helps a little.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 07:50:57 PM »
I used to ask this very question.  The problem I found is there is no single, quick, easy answer.   There are a lot of answers, most of which are not clear until you start to understand some basic things.  Each person has a different beginning to their understanding.  Mine was the origin of the modern bible in relation to Holy Tradition followed by having Apostolic Succession clarified.  Once that was done, the rest fell into place and I learned only Orthodox and Roman Catholics can truly make claim to the original church.  From there, more study was needed to decide which of the two was the original.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2012, 08:02:48 PM »
Yes, in essence, the first church as it existed in the time of Christ.

Well for the apostolic succession, the EO do have records all the way back to Christ.  As far as liturgical practice, it has changed.  Where liturgy is held and how it is held is different today.  You have to remember that there were also councils which decided on certain issues in the church as well.
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Offline truthseeker32

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 08:09:00 PM »
The most important question to answer is: Which Christian denomination's theology best aligns with the teachings of Christ, the Bible, the Apostles, and the Church fathers? I think the EOC has a good argument for being the answer to the question.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 08:09:38 PM by truthseeker32 »

Offline Shiny

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 08:11:54 PM »
The most important question to answer is: Which Christian denomination's theology best aligns with the teachings of Christ, the Bible, the Apostles, and the Church fathers? I think the EOC has a good argument for being that church.
I disagree with this. One of my favorite Christian writers was George MacDonald, and he had alot of sermons that were in the same vein as the Church Fathers and his theology is much akin to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of salvation, and the like. However he was a Protestant, but let's say he started his own denomination with that theology and let's say that it is almost if not exactly reminiscint to that of Orthodoxy. Then what? I don't believe theology is enough.
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Offline truthseeker32

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 01:25:44 AM »
The most important question to answer is: Which Christian denomination's theology best aligns with the teachings of Christ, the Bible, the Apostles, and the Church fathers? I think the EOC has a good argument for being that church.
I disagree with this. One of my favorite Christian writers was George MacDonald, and he had alot of sermons that were in the same vein as the Church Fathers and his theology is much akin to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of salvation, and the like. However he was a Protestant, but let's say he started his own denomination with that theology and let's say that it is almost if not exactly reminiscint to that of Orthodoxy. Then what? I don't believe theology is enough.
Would his denomination have apostolic succession? How about the Eucharist? If not, then he would be missing two big elements that are taught by Christ, the Bible, the apostles, and the Church fathers.

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 01:27:06 AM »
We don't use memorex.  :-X

Offline Shiny

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 01:43:04 AM »
The most important question to answer is: Which Christian denomination's theology best aligns with the teachings of Christ, the Bible, the Apostles, and the Church fathers? I think the EOC has a good argument for being that church.
I disagree with this. One of my favorite Christian writers was George MacDonald, and he had alot of sermons that were in the same vein as the Church Fathers and his theology is much akin to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of salvation, and the like. However he was a Protestant, but let's say he started his own denomination with that theology and let's say that it is almost if not exactly reminiscint to that of Orthodoxy. Then what? I don't believe theology is enough.
Would his denomination have apostolic succession? How about the Eucharist? If not, then he would be missing two big elements that are taught by Christ, the Bible, the apostles, and the Church fathers.
That's exactly my point
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Offline JamesR

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2012, 01:44:30 AM »
Through our history. If you examine Christian history you will see that every other Church was born from separating itself from the original Orthodox Church.

Offline truthseeker32

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2012, 05:10:47 AM »
The most important question to answer is: Which Christian denomination's theology best aligns with the teachings of Christ, the Bible, the Apostles, and the Church fathers? I think the EOC has a good argument for being that church.
I disagree with this. One of my favorite Christian writers was George MacDonald, and he had alot of sermons that were in the same vein as the Church Fathers and his theology is much akin to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of salvation, and the like. However he was a Protestant, but let's say he started his own denomination with that theology and let's say that it is almost if not exactly reminiscint to that of Orthodoxy. Then what? I don't believe theology is enough.
Would his denomination have apostolic succession? How about the Eucharist? If not, then he would be missing two big elements that are taught by Christ, the Bible, the apostles, and the Church fathers.
That's exactly my point
I consider those things aspects of theology.

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 08:01:13 AM »
Only the Orthodox Church partakes the Eucharist by faith only. There have been no human explanations applied as formal doctrine except the words of the Lord Himself. Terms like transubstantiation, consubstantiation etc. blur & confuse the common faith of the Eucharist that must be shared by clergy & laity alike. There has been inconsistency in the frequency of administering the Eucharist to the laity in history (truly problematic) but the proper faith,  worship, & partaking in the holy mystery is unchanged.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 08:07:55 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2012, 10:12:16 AM »
Through our history. If you examine Christian history you will see that every other Church was born from separating itself from the original Orthodox Church.

You can prove the point by asking a negative question. When did the Church founded on the day of Pentecost and led by the Apostles cease to exist? When did the doors shut? What's the date?

Since there isn't one and since we can clearly see historical continuity from Bishop to Bishop and since the original Jurisdictions still exist ,  the Original Church must still exist. And not because we are the best people or because our theology is "Like" something we see in early records, but rather physically. The organization itself. You can decide on the theology separately and determine if The Church has kept the faith or not. Separate question.

This is like deciding if IBM is really IBM. We know when it was started and who founded the company, so if you say the current company isnt really IBM you will need to show me when the original folded up.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 10:12:47 AM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 11:11:23 AM »
Through our history. If you examine Christian history you will see that every other Church was born from separating itself from the original Orthodox Church.

You can prove the point by asking a negative question. When did the Church founded on the day of Pentecost and led by the Apostles cease to exist? When did the doors shut? What's the date?

Since there isn't one and since we can clearly see historical continuity from Bishop to Bishop and since the original Jurisdictions still exist ,  the Original Church must still exist. And not because we are the best people or because our theology is "Like" something we see in early records, but rather physically. The organization itself. You can decide on the theology separately and determine if The Church has kept the faith or not. Separate question.

This is like deciding if IBM is really IBM. We know when it was started and who founded the company, so if you say the current company isnt really IBM you will need to show me when the original folded up.  
Excellent way of putting it.

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Offline soderquj

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 11:37:56 AM »
Through our history. If you examine Christian history you will see that every other Church was born from separating itself from the original Orthodox Church.

You can prove the point by asking a negative question. When did the Church founded on the day of Pentecost and led by the Apostles cease to exist? When did the doors shut? What's the date?

Since there isn't one and since we can clearly see historical continuity from Bishop to Bishop and since the original Jurisdictions still exist ,  the Original Church must still exist. And not because we are the best people or because our theology is "Like" something we see in early records, but rather physically. The organization itself. You can decide on the theology separately and determine if The Church has kept the faith or not. Separate question.

This is like deciding if IBM is really IBM. We know when it was started and who founded the company, so if you say the current company isnt really IBM you will need to show me when the original folded up.  
Excellent way of putting it.

PP

I agree, show me when the Great Apostasy actually happened. When did the Lord withdraw the Church, Priesthood, sacraments for the earth.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 11:39:08 AM by soderquj »
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2012, 11:40:43 AM »
Through our history. If you examine Christian history you will see that every other Church was born from separating itself from the original Orthodox Church.

You can prove the point by asking a negative question. When did the Church founded on the day of Pentecost and led by the Apostles cease to exist? When did the doors shut? What's the date?

Since there isn't one and since we can clearly see historical continuity from Bishop to Bishop and since the original Jurisdictions still exist ,  the Original Church must still exist. And not because we are the best people or because our theology is "Like" something we see in early records, but rather physically. The organization itself. You can decide on the theology separately and determine if The Church has kept the faith or not. Separate question.

This is like deciding if IBM is really IBM. We know when it was started and who founded the company, so if you say the current company isnt really IBM you will need to show me when the original folded up.  
Excellent way of putting it.

PP

I agree, show me when the Great Apostasy actually happened. When did the Lord withdraw the Church, Priesthood, sacraments for the earth.


Its whenever ole Joe Smith said it happened  ::)

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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 12:22:09 PM »
From these arguments it seems to me that there is no hundred percent way to know which is the original church. There is no historic documentation, only convincing oneself through seeing things in history which are close to the current day Orthodox Church. With regard to splits from the Orthodox Church, what is to say that it did not split from Rome or that even earlier that it did not split from the Oriental Orthodox? Others can also provide convicting evidence that they are also true. Why should they not be believed instead?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 12:23:33 PM by Studying_Orthodoxy »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2012, 12:55:57 PM »
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From these arguments it seems to me that there is no hundred percent way to know which is the original church
There is also no 100% way to KNOW there is a God.....

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There is no historic documentation
I know many who would disagree with that.

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With regard to splits from the Orthodox Church, what is to say that it did not split from Rome
Ask a non Roman Catholic historian is where I'd start.

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Offline soderquj

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2012, 01:23:05 PM »
A very wise man told me the following.

Show me another faith that can trace its authority, practices, theology and sacraments, virtually unchanged, back in time every 100 years, without break, all the way back to Christ and I will join that Church.

He is still an Orthodox Priest.
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Offline witega

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2012, 01:30:33 PM »
From these arguments it seems to me that there is no hundred percent way to know which is the original church. There is no historic documentation, only convincing oneself through seeing things in history which are close to the current day Orthodox Church. With regard to splits from the Orthodox Church, what is to say that it did not split from Rome or that even earlier that it did not split from the Oriental Orthodox? Others can also provide convicting evidence that they are also true. Why should they not be believed instead?

What kind of 'documentation' are you looking for? Because there are reams and reams of historical documentation that the congregations founded by the Apostles in the first century in the Middle East, Asia Minor and Greece are still there. As someone else pointed out, the question of whether they have maintained the apostolic doctrine they initially received is a separate question, but it's simply a historical fact that, for example, the church in Corinth that St. Paul wrote 2 epistles to is still there. (And yes, the same can be said of the church in Rome or the Oriental Orthodox--so an individual has to look at the actual teachings to see whether Rome or the Greek churches or the Copts and Syrians or none of the above have actually maintained fidelity to the Apostolic doctrine over the last 2000 years. And yes, one has to look at the actual splits to see who left who. As with faith in God Himself, there is no 'magic bullet'. You have to 'study to show yourself approved'.)
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2012, 04:37:39 PM »
From these arguments it seems to me that there is no hundred percent way to know which is the original church. There is no historic documentation, only convincing oneself through seeing things in history which are close to the current day Orthodox Church. With regard to splits from the Orthodox Church, what is to say that it did not split from Rome or that even earlier that it did not split from the Oriental Orthodox? Others can also provide convicting evidence that they are also true. Why should they not be believed instead?

It's called research.  We can guide you, even provide some starting point and reference material; however, you must do the research and decide for yourself.  There is an abundance of historical records and evidence available for your research.  Other than the Great Schism in 1054 where the Roman See went in his own direction away from the other four of the five original Sees, there are no dramatic splits from the Orthodox Church.  Steps are being conducted on many levels to reconcile EO with OO.  Let us know how we can assist you if your inquiry is legitimate, which I assume is.  Also, feel free to private massage any of us for help.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 04:45:07 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2012, 05:17:42 PM »
From these arguments it seems to me that there is no hundred percent way to know which is the original church. There is no historic documentation, only convincing oneself through seeing things in history which are close to the current day Orthodox Church. With regard to splits from the Orthodox Church, what is to say that it did not split from Rome or that even earlier that it did not split from the Oriental Orthodox? Others can also provide convicting evidence that they are also true. Why should they not be believed instead?

The Bible and many many early writings document the existence of the Church. When did it fold?
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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2012, 06:45:13 PM »
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There is also no 100% way to KNOW there is a God.....

Faith is of course important but we must make an informed choice when choosing religion.

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I know many who would disagree with that.

I would be happy to see this.

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Ask a non Roman Catholic historian is where I'd start.

Understood.

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A very wise man told me the following.

Show me another faith that can trace its authority, practices, theology and sacraments, virtually unchanged, back in time every 100 years, without break, all the way back to Christ and I will join that Church.


I would like to see this as well. Where can I see it?

Quote
What kind of 'documentation' are you looking for? Because there are reams and reams of historical documentation that the congregations founded by the Apostles in the first century in the Middle East, Asia Minor and Greece are still there. As someone else pointed out, the question of whether they have maintained the apostolic doctrine they initially received is a separate question, but it's simply a historical fact that, for example, the church in Corinth that St. Paul wrote 2 epistles to is still there.

I see, but if the original doctrine has not been maintained without doubt then what is the value of the present day doctrine? This is what is most important to know and more or less the fundamental issue for me.

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(And yes, the same can be said of the church in Rome or the Oriental Orthodox--so an individual has to look at the actual teachings to see whether Rome or the Greek churches or the Copts and Syrians or none of the above have actually maintained fidelity to the Apostolic doctrine over the last 2000 years. And yes, one has to look at the actual splits to see who left who. As with faith in God Himself, there is no 'magic bullet'. You have to 'study to show yourself approved'.)

Yes we must come to our own conclusions through research and deep thought.


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It's called research.  We can guide you, even provide some starting point and reference material; however, you must do the research and decide for yourself.  There is an abundance of historical records and evidence available for your research.

Thank you very much. Yes, I have done my best. I have read about the beliefs and practices of the Church and even had for a time the book by the Bishop Timothy Ware. Do you know of any books which discuss the issue of the Church being true to the Message which Christ brought? For me this is the fundamental issue and nothing else matters.

Quote
Let us know how we can assist you if your inquiry is legitimate, which I assume is.  Also, feel free to private massage any of us for help.

Thank you.

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The Bible and many many early writings document the existence of the Church. When did it fold?

It is true, but how do we know that the Orthodox Church is still on the religion which Christ taught?


Offline JamesR

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2012, 06:57:25 PM »
I would like to see this as well

I would suggest starting with the 'Ante-Nicene Fathers', many online sources provide free pdf's and, if you are more traditional and prefer hardcover books, Amazon has used copies of the entire set for free as low as like $90. In the 'Ante-Nicene Fathers' you see Saints and Bishops in the Church from the period after Christ's ascension to the first Ecumenical Council. Many of these figures actually claim to have known the Apostles or learned under someone who did know them personally. Some examples are St. Ignatious and St. John Polycarp. They also bear witness to the Apostles establishing certain Orthodox Churches in the areas and we see a continuation of Bishops. Another good source is Eusebius' Church History, Eusebius was a Christian scholar who had access to many documents and libraries in Alexandria and went on a big, long research-driven effort to precisely prove the Apostolic roots of the Orthodox Church up to his time. However, to be fair, some of his work is a bit questionable since there are reasonable claims that he was an Arian.

Offline JamesR

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2012, 07:23:02 PM »
It is true, but how do we know that the Orthodox Church is still on the religion which Christ taught?

Precisely through the history. I provided some sources that bear witness to our Apostolic roots. Provided that you research these and convince yourself of our Apostolic roots, we can then take the next step to answer your question right here. Jesus promised that He would build His Church on the faith of His Apostles in Matthew 16:28 and that the Gates of Hades would never prevail against His Church. He then sent His Apostles to establish that Church. Since the Orthodox Church can trace itself to the Apostles, then we can fairly conclude that when the Apostles established us, they established us on their Apostolic faith that Jesus blessed. And since we were built on the Apostolic faith by the Apostles, then we can conclude that Jesus' promise to protect the Church through all the ages applies to us, and therefore we still are the religion that Christ taught.

Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2012, 11:00:36 PM »
Thank you for your assistance. Does the Catholic Church not also claim these Apostolic roots?

Offline Shiny

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2012, 11:03:19 PM »
Thank you for your assistance. Does the Catholic Church not also claim these Apostolic roots?
Yes but they claim that the see of Rome is "the rock upon which my Church will be built on" and the papal supremacy.

Of course there are other things as well, but for now I'll stick to the above.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 11:04:07 PM by Achronos »
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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2012, 10:57:36 AM »
So the way to know is to research the original church history and ideas?

Offline Father H

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2012, 04:01:50 PM »
While there were many local churches in the early Church, there was only one original, and that is the Church of Jerusalem.  As the Lord said, "beginning at Jerusalem."   It is the only See that was founded by Christ and all the 12, appointing James as its first Bishop.   While there are now many "bishops of Jerusalem" from other confessions in Jerusalem, there is only one that can claim unbroken apostolic ties going all the way back to James, and thus the 12 and the Lord Himself, and that is the Orthodox Archbishop and Patriarch of the Holy See, +Theophilos. 

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2012, 04:07:30 PM »
So the way to know is to research the original church history and ideas?

Using one's God-given mind and the resources available to our generation is definitely worth looking in to.

But there will never be a "guarantee" that prevents you from making a mistake in life. Unfortunately or fortunately, eventually throwing one's hat in the ring and taking the consequences is part of being a human being. There isn't a robot maker, an infallible easy way out. Unfortunately or fortunately.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:11:03 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline truthseeker32

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2012, 04:11:44 PM »
So the way to know is to research the original church history and ideas?

Using one's God-given mind and the resources available to our generation is definitely worth looking in to.

But there will never be a "guarantee" that prevents you from making a mistake in life. Unfortunately or fortunately, eventually throwing one's hat in the ring and taking the consequences is part of being a human being. There isn't a robot maker, an infallible easy way out. Unfortunately or fortunately.  ;)
Boy, I can relate to this.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2012, 02:20:16 PM »
So the way to know is to research the original church history and ideas?

Using one's God-given mind and the resources available to our generation is definitely worth looking in to.

But there will never be a "guarantee" that prevents you from making a mistake in life. Unfortunately or fortunately, eventually throwing one's hat in the ring and taking the consequences is part of being a human being. There isn't a robot maker, an infallible easy way out. Unfortunately or fortunately.  ;)
Boy, I can relate to this.
But isn't it at least a little thrilling, too?
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Offline Azul

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2012, 09:44:32 AM »
It's lost.. It ceased with the Apostles.. After them we have a different kind of Church, than the one on their times.. Wheather that is right or wrong, who knows..
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Offline psalm110

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2012, 10:10:38 AM »
The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles and it continues to guide the church to this day.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2012, 11:54:25 AM »
It's lost.. It ceased with the Apostles.. After them we have a different kind of Church, than the one on their times.. Wheather that is right or wrong, who knows..

I'm puzzled as to how you can write this and yet still claim to belong to the faith you do on the left.

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Offline Basil 320

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2012, 02:19:52 PM »
Often it is said that the Orthodox Church is the original church. However how can we be certain of this? Where is the proof to this claim made without evidence? This is by no means an unreasonable question. Everyone will claim to be the original and true church.

We claim to be the historical continuity of the original Church founded by Christ through His apostles who entrusted it's care to bishops. We also claim to hold the beliefs held by that original community, which we claim to be the historical continuation of, as those beliefs have been handed down throughout the centuries. The answer is in history. Protestants reject being a continuation of the church they broke away from. The answer to who has best preserved the faith among the groups that can trace their historical continuation back to Christ through the apostles can only be found by looking at their faithfulness to transmitting the original faith by looking at the means by which doctrine has been taught, clarified, and expressed throughout the centuries. Where there are subastantial differences in belief between these communions of churches, we claim to have been the most faithful.

The bishops of the Holy Orthodox Church can trace their ordination back to the Apostles; the doctrine of the church as set forth by the Ecumenical Synods (Councils) of the first millenium, has not been altered.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2012, 09:10:55 PM »
We claim to be the historical continuity of the original Church founded by Christ through His apostles who entrusted it's care to bishops. We also claim to hold the beliefs held by that original community, which we claim to be the historical continuation of, as those beliefs have been handed down throughout the centuries. The answer is in history. Protestants reject being a continuation of the church they broke away from. The answer to who has best preserved the faith among the groups that can trace their historical continuation back to Christ through the apostles can only be found by looking at their faithfulness to transmitting the original faith by looking at the means by which doctrine has been taught, clarified, and expressed throughout the centuries. Where there are subastantial differences in belief between these communions of churches, we claim to have been the most faithful.
The bishops of the Holy Orthodox Church can trace their ordination back to the Apostles; the doctrine of the church as set forth by the Ecumenical Synods (Councils) of the first millenium, has not been altered.
I dont disagree.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Azul

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Re: The Original Church?
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2012, 01:08:17 PM »
from claim till fact there is a distance.. the Apostles were ALL JEWS like JESUS himself was a JEW.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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