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Author Topic: Vatican seminar on Eastern Catholic churches  (Read 7851 times) Average Rating: 0
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gphadraig
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« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2004, 06:18:01 PM »

The Transapline Redemptorists stayed at the ROCOR monastery at Brookwood in SE England. (The monastery is situated in a large cemetry). No, there was no 'ecclesiastical' shinnanegans. The ROCOR monks liked them as individuals who appeared to be ardent seekers after truth, even if they had taken a 'wrong turn', was my sense of it rather than approval of the TR thing. The Monks did not and do not agree with the TRs ecclesiology. Since then the TRs have acquired a base on a barren island off the far north of Scotland. A windy and cold spot.

Brookwood attracts visitors from a number of confessions and not necessarily those who hold a specifically 'traditional' outlook. (I am not sure that the two groups view of what 'tradition' means concur, anyway they are certainly different. The TRs almost magical belief in sacred amulets would have not struck a cord with their Orthodox hosts, I am sure. I have seen new calendarists, Armenians and an Ethiopian there too plus any number of Anglicans, ordinary Latins, protestants and don't knows.

I got the feeling that the TRs were more on Mel Gibson's wave length, regarding the present Pope and the Vatican as betraying Catholicism. But maybe I didn't listen carefully enough - I didn't go to an Orthodox monastery to get side-tracked into a purely Latin squabble. Although somehow this gulf between some 'Catholics' and the Pope came as a surprise. Had always assumed 'retro-Catholics' especially could not have an existence without the Pope? Came away confused on that score.

One possibility that struck me was that the TRs were interested in observing the services, given that the ROCOR monks have a cycle of services undertaken with some strictness. I know several old ladies visiting from Athens always were peering into the altar, and then coming away saying how 'correctly' and'properly' things were done there. (I was not aware of the TRs using both western and eastern forms of worship).

Orthodoc witty observation strikes a cord. For my part I would pray that the TRs become Orthodox at some point, God willing. They certainly seemed afraid neither of hard work or ascetism. Something they would have found at Brookwood...........
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2004, 06:28:48 PM »

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I got the feeling that the TRs were more on Mel Gibson's wave length, regarding the present Pope and the Vatican as betraying Catholicism.

That is probably because the Transalipine Redemptorists are associated with and if I am not mistaken, a branch of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX).

Quote
Had always assumed 'retro-Catholics' especially could not have an existence without the Pope?

This is not necessarily always the case, take the sedevacantists for an example.

Quote
For my part I would pray that the TRs become Orthodox at some point, God willing. They certainly seemed afraid neither of hard work or ascetism.

It would be nice, but doubtful that it would happen, due to the stance of traditionalist Catholics (and the Society of St. Pius X) that the Orthodox are schismatics and at the very worst, heretics. But, nothing is impossible with God - so who knows!

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2004, 06:41:28 PM »

Forgive my ignorance but what on earth is a 'sedevacantist'?

I have come across all sorts of 'odd' little groups, some describing themselves as Old Catholics. These are usually almost all clergy with one or two lay folk in tow. And always seem 'odd' or 'flakey', but I ain't ever come across one of these critturs! That I know of......
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« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2004, 07:21:17 PM »

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Forgive my ignorance but what on earth is a 'sedevacantist'?

A sedevacantist is a traditionalist Roman Catholic who believes that the there has been no legitmate pope since Pope Pius XII and because of that the seat (sede) of St. Peter is vacant (vacante).

They reject all of the reforms of Second Vatican Council, including the Novus Ordo Mass, as well as all of the ordinations of anyone associated with the legitmate Roman Catholic Church after Vatican II. Basically anything to do with Roman Catholicism after Pope Pius XII is thrown out the window and they hope that one day a true Pope will magically appear and reform the Catholic Church.

Hutton Gibson (Mel's father) is a sedevacantist and he wrote some books (two, I believe) which basically elaborated on how un-catholic the RCC is and bad-mouths the legitmate Roman Catholic Church. Which is basically what all sedevacantists do.

They live in a romantic and delusional fantasy where Catholicism is the same as it was in the 1950's and it wasn't supposed to change and since it did, it should be rejected.

There are many conspiracy theories as to how the current RCC has become the seat of the anti-Christ, some include blaming the changes on Satan and the Masons amongst others.

They usually associate specifically with those who are of the same jurisdiction as them, believing that those outside of their brand of Catholicism are heretical on one point or the other.

If you're interested I could post some links to some various sedevacantist websites if you'd like to do some more research on your own, but I question the point of doing so on an Orthodox forum.

Hope this helps!

In Christ,
Aaron

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« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2004, 08:35:16 PM »

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No, there was no 'ecclesiastical' shenanigans.

Thanks; I was going to say answering that question that I didn't think so.

The friendliness and mutual respect of these English monks of ROCOR and the TRs reminds me of:

1) C.S. Lewis in Letters to an American Lady in which he says, in the first or second letter, that he thinks the people in the heart of their traditions, the most observant, etc., are closest to each other than the fringes of those groups; and

2) The irony of RC-Orthodox dialogue: the most observant and fervent Orthodox, the ones with the most to admire and the most to offer the RCs in any reunion, are usually exactly the ones who don't want to talk! Whilst those who seem most friendly can be (but not always are!) fringe types who like the West for the wrong reasons (they like liberalism). Rather like some Muslims who say they want to read 'Christian' literature but mean Hustler!
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gphadraig
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« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2004, 08:39:41 PM »

Aaron, my thanks for such a comprehensive reply. I see no spiritual profit in enquiring further into this phenomena of the 'vacant seat' group, so maybe you hesitancy in posting links matches my reservations. Thank you........
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« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2004, 03:07:41 AM »

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Aaron, my thanks for such a comprehensive reply.

Not a problem at all, glad to have been of service.   Cheesy

Quote
I see no spiritual profit in enquiring further into this phenomena of the 'vacant seat' group, so maybe you hesitancy in posting links matches my reservations.

I agree, so we'll just leave at that for now then.  Grin

We Orthodox have our own worries and problems to worry about, let alone focusing on issues with the Roman Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2004, 05:23:44 PM »

At the least the MP has stated on its website that it accepts the sacraments of the Catholic Church as valid and views it as a Sister Church.

Dear Deacon Lance,

Can you please provide a link to the page where the above is found?

Thanks!

Tony
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« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2004, 05:41:40 PM »

The Transapline Redemptorists stayed at the ROCOR monastery at Brookwood in SE England. (The monastery is situated in a large cemetry). No, there was no 'ecclesiastical' shinnanegans. The ROCOR monks liked them as individuals who appeared to be ardent seekers after truth, even if they had taken a 'wrong turn', was my sense of it rather than approval of the TR thing. The Monks did not and do not agree with the TRs ecclesiology. Since then the TRs have acquired a base on a barren island off the far north of Scotland. A windy and cold spot.

Brookwood attracts visitors from a number of confessions and not necessarily those who hold a specifically 'traditional' outlook. (I am not sure that the two groups view of what 'tradition' means concur, anyway they are certainly different. The TRs almost magical belief in sacred amulets would have not struck a cord with their Orthodox hosts, I am sure. I have seen new calendarists, Armenians and an Ethiopian there too plus any number of Anglicans, ordinary Latins, protestants and don't knows.

I got the feeling that the TRs were more on Mel Gibson's wave length, regarding the present Pope and the Vatican as betraying Catholicism. But maybe I didn't listen carefully enough - I didn't go to an Orthodox monastery to get side-tracked into a purely Latin squabble. Although somehow this gulf between some 'Catholics' and the Pope came as a surprise. Had always assumed 'retro-Catholics' especially could not have an existence without the Pope? Came away confused on that score.

One possibility that struck me was that the TRs were interested in observing the services, given that the ROCOR monks have a cycle of services undertaken with some strictness. I know several old ladies visiting from Athens always were peering into the altar, and then coming away saying how 'correctly' and'properly' things were done there. (I was not aware of the TRs using both western and eastern forms of worship).

Orthodoc witty observation strikes a cord. For my part I would pray that the TRs become Orthodox at some point, God willing. They certainly seemed afraid neither of hard work or ascetism. Something they would have found at Brookwood...........
Interesting...
What sacred amulets are you taling about?
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gphadraig
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« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2004, 06:46:07 PM »

CatholicEagle,

As I recall some sort of 'scapular' I think it was called with a holy heart on it? If you died wearing it you skipped 'purgatory', or some such. It all sounded like magic or the occult to me, but again maybe I wasn't paying too much attention.

It was a little time ago but sort of stuck because I had never heard anything quite like this before!
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« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2004, 07:10:25 PM »

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As I recall some sort of 'scapular' I think it was called with a holy heart on it? If you died wearing it you skipped 'purgatory', or some such. It all sounded like magic or the occult to me, but again maybe I wasn't paying too much attention.

What you're describing is the Brown Scapular, which in its full-size form is part of the Carmelite monk's habit, just like the -+-¦-Ç-¦-+-¦-+-è with symbols of the Passion embroidered on it that's worn by Orthodox monks of the great schema.

In its miniaturized form as worn by some laity, it doesn't necessary have the Immaculate Heart of Mary on it but it can.

The 'sabbatine privilege' you describe is problematic without the right kind of ’splaining. It says if one is a devoted (not a hypocritical) wearer of the scapular (Our Lady was speaking specifically to a Carmelite about Carmelites) then if one died and went to purgatory one would be freed from it the first Saturday (hence the name) after one's death.

But devotions analogous to the scapular indeed aren't foreign to the Orthodox - witness the strips of cloth with Ps. 90/91 written on them that Russian soldiers traditionally carry into battle on their persons, or the cloth icon of St Panteleimon (I have one of those), or indeed the cross or crucifix with '-í-+-¦-ü-+ -+ -ü-+-à -Ç-¦-+-+' (save and protect) written on the back.

The privilege if interpreted rightly isn't different to, say, making it safely through the particular judgement in the form of toll-houses, or, after that, safely out of the intermediate state as you understand it, thanks to practising some favourite devotion which disposed you towards God and not evil.

So if you're looking for a cudgel with which to beat on Western Catholicism, if you use this example you'll end up smashing your own tradition as well.
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« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2004, 07:19:53 PM »

Serge, I am not looking to beat anyone with anything much less lay about them with a cudgel. Given the very superficial explanation offered by the wearer, unprompted and unasked as I recall, it left me feeling I met someone who believed implicitly in magic. It seemed to make no sense at all and I kept my own counsel.
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« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2004, 08:31:39 PM »

SOME REMARKS ON ECUMENISM

by Archimandrite Georgios (Kapsanis)
Abbot of the Monastery Gregoriou

Ecumenism, that is, the movement for the union of the "Churches", as it is carried on today, manifestly has an anthropocentric (man-centered) character, not a theological and spiritual one. It puts aside the Faith (doctrines) and the Tradition of the Church. It vewis the Church chiefly as a human creation. for this reason, basic differences with  regard to the Faith, and to the history and conscience of the Church, are not seriously taken into consideration.

There is created by Ecumenism a mentality of diplomacy and compromising, whereby certain doctrinal and other differences me be settled by mutual concessions.

The ecclesiology which underlies Ecumenism is also erroneous. It does not recognize the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Universal (Katholik+¬) and Apostolic Church, but regards it as only a part or branch of the Universal Church. For this reason, many Orthodox view Ecumenism as an ecclesiological heresy. Ecumenism does not express Orthodoxy.

We regard Ecumenism as something that leads away from Union. The more it seems to bring union close, the more it does precisely the opposite.

We love the heterodox Christians, and for this reason we want a real and holy union with them. We do not want a mere co-existence with them, or a mere tolerance of the "variaties of faith." For this does not constitute true Christian love.

We cannot negotiate "on equal terms" with the "distorted Christs" of the West - of the Roman Catholics and the Protestants. Neither can we betray the person who aspires for his salvation from the true Christ. For this we may suffer, and we may die, but we cannot compromise.

In particular, as regards Papism, we feel what the Orthodox have always felf, that it distorts the Holy Trinity, puts aside Christ, does not manifest the Church as a Likeness of the Holy Trinity, but instead as a human creation ruled by a single person (monokratoria), and gives to the Holy Spirit only a decorative place. As a result, man is not helped and is not saved.

The Orthodox Ecumenists forget the above, and thus do great injustice to Western Christians, because they do not help them to preceive their unsound state. Also, by what they say they do not express the Faith and the mind-set (phr+¦nema) of the Orthodox Church.

Their justification that all these things are done "diplomatically" constitutes a spiritual fall. It is contrary to the demand of the Gospel that we "speak the truth in love" (Ephesians 4: 15) It manifests a yielding to the spirit of secularism.

These Ecumenists are neither holier nor wiser than our great Church Fathers, such as Saint Photios, Saint Gregory Palamas, Saint Cosmas Aitolos, and Saint Nicodemos the Hagiorite, to want to change the pious mind-set of the Church and confess another faith, reconciling things that are irreconcilable....

Together with my brethren here at the Holy Mountain of Athos, I humbly entreat the Orthodox Ecumenists not to disregard the voice of the monks of the Holy Mountain, not to proceed to innovations regarding the Faith and the relations with the heterodox, innovations that are contrary to the spirit of Orthodoxy, ignoring the "conscience of the Church".

Otherwise , all their efforts and struggles will have the same fate as similar previous efforts of the Ferrara-Florence type. And they will cause more divisions instead of union. For they will not express the Orthodox conscience. The apt remark has been made that if (the) Holy Mountain does not consent unforced to possible furture "union" or "synod", neither will Orthodoxy consent.

------------------

First appeared 'Orthodoxia kai Oumanism+¦s, Orthodoxia kai Papism+¦s, 2nd edition, Hagion Oros, 1995, pages 83-85, 125, 127

Taken here from Victories of Orthodoxy by Constantine Cavarnos, Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, Belmont, Mass.

Father Georgis when writing this and referring to the Orthodox Ecumenists had in the mind the Orthodox participants at the pseudo-Synod at Balamand in Lebanon.
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