Author Topic: Is it time for the OCA to stand up to the Synod? Or for MP to rescind the tomos?  (Read 5251 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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After the gross mishandling of the situation several years ago with the disgraceful former Metropolitan Herman and the theft and mismanagement of money, as well as the lack of spine for dealing with past sexual misconduct in the OCA, is it simply time that we stand up to the "old guard" that sits in the Holy Synod and speak our minds?

Let's be honest, there are in fact Priests in the OCA that didn't want Metropoltan Herman gone, they also vehemently opposed Archbishop Job of blessed memory. I know for a fact that there are some who physically and verbally threatened those who openly voiced their opposition to Metropolitan Herman and the lack of transparency. There were even some who went so far as to physically assault those who spoke their minds about Metropolitan Herman.

Some of the Bishops who originally opposed transparency and didn't want to deal with the problems still exist in the Holy Synod and have actively opposed his beatitude (now to be former) Metropolitan Jonah. Some of these Bishops are part of the "old guard" and the "good old boys", I question whether or not any of them have the spine to reverse their course and support a Metropolitan who doesn't give a damn about the status quo and who will actively fight against ALL corruption that they see.

Now that they have requested the resignation of his beatitude Metropolitan Jonah, and Metropoltan Jonah has submitted his resignation, isn't it time that as members of the OCA, we make sure our Bishops realize that they serve us and that as our spiritual shepherds, it is their God-given duty to stand against all forms of ungodliness including sexual misconduct, financial misconduct and stand up for our Orthodox faith?

I really hope it doesn't ever have to come to this, but it this is a bad omen of things to come into the OCA, then I hope it's members will start voting with their feet and seeking out the other jurisdictions. If that begins to happen, I sincerely hope that either the Holy Synod changes or that the Church of Russia would promptly rescind our tomo of autocephaly.

May God let unity come quickly to North America so that the "good old boys" and "old guard" quickly find out that they are simply a few out of dozens of Bishops and they cannot control things forever.

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?

We know what has transpired since he was elected, and the main Bishops who butted heads with him.
Watch our "blessed hierarchs" pull another move like they did with Metropolitan Herman... God I sure hope not... The people I know who were there at former Metropolitan Herman's election said you could feel the Holy Spirit being sucked out of the room. The crowd should have been shouting anaxios the whole time. It seemed like the Holy Spirit returned with Metropolitan Jonah's election... If the Holy Synod pulls another move like they did with Metropolitan Herman, they had better expect a fight from the clergy and laity.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.
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Offline 88Devin12

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I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.

Not to mention we've lost two strong pillars of Orthodoxy in just a couple years, Archbishops Job and Dmitri.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.

Not to mention we've lost two strong pillars of Orthodoxy in just a couple years, Archbishops Job and Dmitri.

May they intercede for the OCA before the throne of God, especially in these times of trouble...
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Ortho_cat

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if there's something that needs cleaning up around there i hope that former Mp. Jonah speaks up now.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 02:37:43 AM by Ortho_cat »

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I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.

Not to mention we've lost two strong pillars of Orthodoxy in just a couple years, Archbishops Job and Dmitri.

May they intercede for the OCA before the throne of God, especially in these times of trouble...
since saints have been invoked, we might remember that Pope St. Athanasius was driven from his see five times, St. John Chrysostom deposed twice, St. Meletius of Antioch deprived of his see for decades, etc.  This might not be the end of Met. Jonah (although the fact that St. John died in exile can be sobering).  We shall have to see what happens, pray, and act as called.

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After the gross mishandling of the situation several years ago with the disgraceful former Metropolitan Herman and the theft and mismanagement of money, as well as the lack of spine for dealing with past sexual misconduct in the OCA, is it simply time that we stand up to the "old guard" that sits in the Holy Synod and speak our minds?

Let's be honest, there are in fact Priests in the OCA that didn't want Metropoltan Herman gone, they also vehemently opposed Archbishop Job of blessed memory. I know for a fact that there are some who physically and verbally threatened those who openly voiced their opposition to Metropolitan Herman and the lack of transparency. There were even some who went so far as to physically assault those who spoke their minds about Metropolitan Herman.

Some of the Bishops who originally opposed transparency and didn't want to deal with the problems still exist in the Holy Synod and have actively opposed his beatitude (now to be former) Metropolitan Jonah. Some of these Bishops are part of the "old guard" and the "good old boys", I question whether or not any of them have the spine to reverse their course and support a Metropolitan who doesn't give a damn about the status quo and who will actively fight against ALL corruption that they see.

Now that they have requested the resignation of his beatitude Metropolitan Jonah, and Metropoltan Jonah has submitted his resignation, isn't it time that as members of the OCA, we make sure our Bishops realize that they serve us and that as our spiritual shepherds, it is their God-given duty to stand against all forms of ungodliness including sexual misconduct, financial misconduct and stand up for our Orthodox faith?

I really hope it doesn't ever have to come to this, but it this is a bad omen of things to come into the OCA, then I hope it's members will start voting with their feet and seeking out the other jurisdictions. If that begins to happen, I sincerely hope that either the Holy Synod changes or that the Church of Russia would promptly rescind our tomo of autocephaly.

May God let unity come quickly to North America so that the "good old boys" and "old guard" quickly find out that they are simply a few out of dozens of Bishops and they cannot control things forever.
The only way the Tomos would be rescinded is if the OCA asked for it, i.e. joined back into the Patriarchate of Moscow.  What Moscow has to say would be one of the first things to watch for the next few days.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Maria

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if there's something that needs cleaning up around there i hope that former Mp. Jonah speaks up now.

In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.

Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.

Blackmail anyone?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 03:19:30 AM by Maria »
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Offline Gorazd

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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

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In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy. Its not like he resigned because of a crime, or from some kind of gross mismanagement (like the former Met. Herman). It might just be a swap.

Either way, from what I know of Met/ Jonah, I respected him greatly and hope God blesses him and his family that he takes care of.

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Offline pensateomnia

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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?
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Offline primuspilus

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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Its not unheard of....

PP
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Offline pensateomnia

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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?

Although he's obviously been dropped by Moscow, I don't think Met Jonah would stick his finger in their collective eye.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

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How is what we're discussing on this thread not baseless gossip?
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Offline primuspilus

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How is what we're discussing on this thread not baseless gossip?
The OP is asking for an opinion on what folks think the oca should do. Not gossip (which is on another thread  :laugh: )

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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?

Although he's obviously been dropped by Moscow, I don't think Met Jonah would stick his finger in their collective eye.

Moscow? 

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How is what we're discussing on this thread not baseless gossip?
The OP is asking for an opinion on what folks think the oca should do. Not gossip (which is on another thread  :laugh: )
And what we should do is wait and reserve judgment for that time when we have all the facts about what happened. The original post and subsequent replies by the original poster are all based on assumptions of what happened inside the Synod, and borderline judgmental assumptions at that. We may eventually find that his assumptions are correct, but we may also find that his assumptions are wrong. We just don't know. Until we do know, such assumptions appear to be nothing more than baseless gossip.
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Let us pray for Metropolitan Jonah
Public Event · By Hyperdox Herman
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Moscow?  

This is only the latest in a string of ouster attempts. Moscow had been backing Met Jonah, preventing a successful ouster, but Moscow's support evaporated.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 09:55:55 AM by pensateomnia »
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Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?

Although he's obviously been dropped by Moscow, I don't think Met Jonah would stick his finger in their collective eye.
As someone has pointed out, if Moscow dropped him, it would have been done with more finesse.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline PrincessMommy

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Lord, have mercy.  I hope it all works out for the best.  



This is my sentiments as well. 

Praying for the OCA and Bishops. 

Offline Νεκτάριος

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The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

Offline 88Devin12

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

HOOM?

Offline augustin717

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

HOOM?
It's a cult admitted into the church back in 2000 IIRC . They are big on elders asceticism spiritual fathers etc.

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

HOOM?

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Offline William

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Let us pray for Metropolitan Jonah
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The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

Whether direct pull or not, I cannot imagine this ouster without at least toleration by Moscow.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

Whether direct pull or not, I cannot imagine this ouster without at least toleration by Moscow.

Moscow doesn't care about the OCA since they have the ROCOR.

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I join Peter in pleading with folks to cease speculations, although I must admit that the discussion so far has been so different than other fora. As an OCA member, please accept my gratitude for keeping your powder dry, so to speak, and for your good will toward my jurisdiction.

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The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

Whether direct pull or not, I cannot imagine this ouster without at least toleration by Moscow.

Moscow doesn't care about the OCA since they have the ROCOR.
It goes beyond just a question of having a presence.  Moscow has the Patriarchal parishes as well, whose bishop, Abp. Justinian, stands in Moscow's place as vice chairman of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America.  The OCA stands in the way of the Phanar's Canon 28 Protos Ultramarism.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Agabus

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In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.
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The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

It's not an issue of meddling but of alliances. The MP is the OCA's most important international ally, so its opinion is significant.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

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In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
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In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
I say let Met. Jonah step down and merge the OCA with the Antiochians :)

PP
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"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline ICXCNIKA

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In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
I say let Met. Jonah step down and merge the OCA with the Antiochians :)

PP
Let Metropolitan Philip step down and then merge both jurisdictions and have an All American Council that elects a hierarch to a term limited office of say 3-6 years which can be renewed if the candidate has proven effective.

Offline primuspilus

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Let Metropolitan Philip step down and then merge both jurisdictions and have an All American Council that elects a hierarch to a term limited office of say 3-6 years which can be renewed if the candidate has proven effective
Ok, Im down. I just want adminstrative unity.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Online PeterTheAleut

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
Correction: I'm not a priest.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline primuspilus

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Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
Correction: I'm not a priest.
That we know of.......... :police:

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline age234

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In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
I say let Met. Jonah step down and merge the OCA with the Antiochians :)

PP
Let Metropolitan Philip step down and then merge both jurisdictions and have an All American Council that elects a hierarch to a term limited office of say 3-6 years which can be renewed if the candidate has proven effective.

Metr. Philip claimed in an interview (I think it was that interview with Kevin Allen on AFR) that he has tried to resign on account of his age but the Patriarch (who is 10 years older than he) won't accept it.

But we can dream. I'd go for that. Our jurisdictions could compliment each other I think.