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Author Topic: Is it time for the OCA to stand up to the Synod? Or for MP to rescind the tomos?  (Read 3266 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: July 09, 2012, 01:54:44 AM »

After the gross mishandling of the situation several years ago with the disgraceful former Metropolitan Herman and the theft and mismanagement of money, as well as the lack of spine for dealing with past sexual misconduct in the OCA, is it simply time that we stand up to the "old guard" that sits in the Holy Synod and speak our minds?

Let's be honest, there are in fact Priests in the OCA that didn't want Metropoltan Herman gone, they also vehemently opposed Archbishop Job of blessed memory. I know for a fact that there are some who physically and verbally threatened those who openly voiced their opposition to Metropolitan Herman and the lack of transparency. There were even some who went so far as to physically assault those who spoke their minds about Metropolitan Herman.

Some of the Bishops who originally opposed transparency and didn't want to deal with the problems still exist in the Holy Synod and have actively opposed his beatitude (now to be former) Metropolitan Jonah. Some of these Bishops are part of the "old guard" and the "good old boys", I question whether or not any of them have the spine to reverse their course and support a Metropolitan who doesn't give a damn about the status quo and who will actively fight against ALL corruption that they see.

Now that they have requested the resignation of his beatitude Metropolitan Jonah, and Metropoltan Jonah has submitted his resignation, isn't it time that as members of the OCA, we make sure our Bishops realize that they serve us and that as our spiritual shepherds, it is their God-given duty to stand against all forms of ungodliness including sexual misconduct, financial misconduct and stand up for our Orthodox faith?

I really hope it doesn't ever have to come to this, but it this is a bad omen of things to come into the OCA, then I hope it's members will start voting with their feet and seeking out the other jurisdictions. If that begins to happen, I sincerely hope that either the Holy Synod changes or that the Church of Russia would promptly rescind our tomo of autocephaly.

May God let unity come quickly to North America so that the "good old boys" and "old guard" quickly find out that they are simply a few out of dozens of Bishops and they cannot control things forever.
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 02:02:35 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 02:10:35 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?

We know what has transpired since he was elected, and the main Bishops who butted heads with him.
Watch our "blessed hierarchs" pull another move like they did with Metropolitan Herman... God I sure hope not... The people I know who were there at former Metropolitan Herman's election said you could feel the Holy Spirit being sucked out of the room. The crowd should have been shouting anaxios the whole time. It seemed like the Holy Spirit returned with Metropolitan Jonah's election... If the Holy Synod pulls another move like they did with Metropolitan Herman, they had better expect a fight from the clergy and laity.
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 02:15:24 AM »

I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 02:19:22 AM »

I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.

Not to mention we've lost two strong pillars of Orthodoxy in just a couple years, Archbishops Job and Dmitri.
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 02:25:23 AM »

I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.

Not to mention we've lost two strong pillars of Orthodoxy in just a couple years, Archbishops Job and Dmitri.

May they intercede for the OCA before the throne of God, especially in these times of trouble...
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 02:37:31 AM »

if there's something that needs cleaning up around there i hope that former Mp. Jonah speaks up now.
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 02:38:35 AM »

I'm not going to jump the gun, but I'm definitely going to be paying attention to what fleshes out in the next few days. Three primates in ten years is ridiculous.

Not to mention we've lost two strong pillars of Orthodoxy in just a couple years, Archbishops Job and Dmitri.

May they intercede for the OCA before the throne of God, especially in these times of trouble...
since saints have been invoked, we might remember that Pope St. Athanasius was driven from his see five times, St. John Chrysostom deposed twice, St. Meletius of Antioch deprived of his see for decades, etc.  This might not be the end of Met. Jonah (although the fact that St. John died in exile can be sobering).  We shall have to see what happens, pray, and act as called.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 02:39:16 AM »

Lord, have mercy.  I hope it all works out for the best.  

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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 02:41:53 AM »

After the gross mishandling of the situation several years ago with the disgraceful former Metropolitan Herman and the theft and mismanagement of money, as well as the lack of spine for dealing with past sexual misconduct in the OCA, is it simply time that we stand up to the "old guard" that sits in the Holy Synod and speak our minds?

Let's be honest, there are in fact Priests in the OCA that didn't want Metropoltan Herman gone, they also vehemently opposed Archbishop Job of blessed memory. I know for a fact that there are some who physically and verbally threatened those who openly voiced their opposition to Metropolitan Herman and the lack of transparency. There were even some who went so far as to physically assault those who spoke their minds about Metropolitan Herman.

Some of the Bishops who originally opposed transparency and didn't want to deal with the problems still exist in the Holy Synod and have actively opposed his beatitude (now to be former) Metropolitan Jonah. Some of these Bishops are part of the "old guard" and the "good old boys", I question whether or not any of them have the spine to reverse their course and support a Metropolitan who doesn't give a damn about the status quo and who will actively fight against ALL corruption that they see.

Now that they have requested the resignation of his beatitude Metropolitan Jonah, and Metropoltan Jonah has submitted his resignation, isn't it time that as members of the OCA, we make sure our Bishops realize that they serve us and that as our spiritual shepherds, it is their God-given duty to stand against all forms of ungodliness including sexual misconduct, financial misconduct and stand up for our Orthodox faith?

I really hope it doesn't ever have to come to this, but it this is a bad omen of things to come into the OCA, then I hope it's members will start voting with their feet and seeking out the other jurisdictions. If that begins to happen, I sincerely hope that either the Holy Synod changes or that the Church of Russia would promptly rescind our tomo of autocephaly.

May God let unity come quickly to North America so that the "good old boys" and "old guard" quickly find out that they are simply a few out of dozens of Bishops and they cannot control things forever.
The only way the Tomos would be rescinded is if the OCA asked for it, i.e. joined back into the Patriarchate of Moscow.  What Moscow has to say would be one of the first things to watch for the next few days.
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2012, 03:15:40 AM »

if there's something that needs cleaning up around there i hope that former Mp. Jonah speaks up now.

In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.

Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.

Blackmail anyone?
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 07:16:53 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 09:01:05 AM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy. Its not like he resigned because of a crime, or from some kind of gross mismanagement (like the former Met. Herman). It might just be a swap.

Either way, from what I know of Met/ Jonah, I respected him greatly and hope God blesses him and his family that he takes care of.

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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 09:17:01 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 09:19:40 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 09:28:35 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Its not unheard of....

PP
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 09:31:13 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?

Although he's obviously been dropped by Moscow, I don't think Met Jonah would stick his finger in their collective eye.
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 09:41:06 AM »

How is what we're discussing on this thread not baseless gossip?
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2012, 09:42:46 AM »

How is what we're discussing on this thread not baseless gossip?
The OP is asking for an opinion on what folks think the oca should do. Not gossip (which is on another thread  laugh )

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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2012, 09:45:04 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?

Although he's obviously been dropped by Moscow, I don't think Met Jonah would stick his finger in their collective eye.

Moscow? 
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 09:51:03 AM »

How is what we're discussing on this thread not baseless gossip?
The OP is asking for an opinion on what folks think the oca should do. Not gossip (which is on another thread  laugh )
And what we should do is wait and reserve judgment for that time when we have all the facts about what happened. The original post and subsequent replies by the original poster are all based on assumptions of what happened inside the Synod, and borderline judgmental assumptions at that. We may eventually find that his assumptions are correct, but we may also find that his assumptions are wrong. We just don't know. Until we do know, such assumptions appear to be nothing more than baseless gossip.
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2012, 09:53:18 AM »

Let us pray for Metropolitan Jonah
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2012, 09:55:31 AM »

Moscow?  

This is only the latest in a string of ouster attempts. Moscow had been backing Met Jonah, preventing a successful ouster, but Moscow's support evaporated.
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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2012, 09:57:24 AM »

Btw, what about transferring Met. Jonah to ACROD?

Not going to happen, as ACROD is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
And?

Although he's obviously been dropped by Moscow, I don't think Met Jonah would stick his finger in their collective eye.
As someone has pointed out, if Moscow dropped him, it would have been done with more finesse.
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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2012, 10:03:35 AM »

Lord, have mercy.  I hope it all works out for the best.  



This is my sentiments as well. 

Praying for the OCA and Bishops. 
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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2012, 10:05:07 AM »

The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2012, 10:28:39 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2012, 10:33:36 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

HOOM?
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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2012, 11:07:01 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

HOOM?
It's a cult admitted into the church back in 2000 IIRC . They are big on elders asceticism spiritual fathers etc.
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2012, 11:21:06 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.

HOOM?

The former "Holy Order of Mans", later "Christ The Savior Brotherhood."
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2012, 11:27:58 AM »

Let us pray for Metropolitan Jonah
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2012, 11:59:14 AM »

The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

Whether direct pull or not, I cannot imagine this ouster without at least toleration by Moscow.
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2012, 12:02:58 PM »

I was taking a stroll down memory lane
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20605.0.html
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2012, 12:06:43 PM »

The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

Whether direct pull or not, I cannot imagine this ouster without at least toleration by Moscow.

Moscow doesn't care about the OCA since they have the ROCOR.
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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2012, 12:08:43 PM »

I join Peter in pleading with folks to cease speculations, although I must admit that the discussion so far has been so different than other fora. As an OCA member, please accept my gratitude for keeping your powder dry, so to speak, and for your good will toward my jurisdiction.
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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2012, 12:10:43 PM »

The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

Whether direct pull or not, I cannot imagine this ouster without at least toleration by Moscow.

Moscow doesn't care about the OCA since they have the ROCOR.
It goes beyond just a question of having a presence.  Moscow has the Patriarchal parishes as well, whose bishop, Abp. Justinian, stands in Moscow's place as vice chairman of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America.  The OCA stands in the way of the Phanar's Canon 28 Protos Ultramarism.
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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2012, 02:04:36 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.
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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2012, 02:17:56 PM »

The MP meddling is an interesting angle, but realistically other than a bit of soft power and photo-ops with Patr. Kirill, Moscow doesn't have a lot of direct pull in Syosset these days.  Or do they?

It's not an issue of meddling but of alliances. The MP is the OCA's most important international ally, so its opinion is significant.
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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 02:20:16 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2012, 02:22:42 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
I say let Met. Jonah step down and merge the OCA with the Antiochians Smiley

PP
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2012, 02:29:52 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
I say let Met. Jonah step down and merge the OCA with the Antiochians Smiley

PP
Let Metropolitan Philip step down and then merge both jurisdictions and have an All American Council that elects a hierarch to a term limited office of say 3-6 years which can be renewed if the candidate has proven effective.
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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2012, 02:31:16 PM »

Quote
Let Metropolitan Philip step down and then merge both jurisdictions and have an All American Council that elects a hierarch to a term limited office of say 3-6 years which can be renewed if the candidate has proven effective
Ok, Im down. I just want adminstrative unity.

PP
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2012, 02:34:55 PM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
Correction: I'm not a priest.
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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2012, 02:36:36 PM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
Correction: I'm not a priest.
That we know of.......... police

PP
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2012, 02:37:22 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

It's also the see he was originally intended to fill, having been elected as the Bishop of Fort Worth.
I say let Met. Jonah step down and merge the OCA with the Antiochians Smiley

PP
Let Metropolitan Philip step down and then merge both jurisdictions and have an All American Council that elects a hierarch to a term limited office of say 3-6 years which can be renewed if the candidate has proven effective.

Metr. Philip claimed in an interview (I think it was that interview with Kevin Allen on AFR) that he has tried to resign on account of his age but the Patriarch (who is 10 years older than he) won't accept it.

But we can dream. I'd go for that. Our jurisdictions could compliment each other I think.
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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2012, 02:57:49 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.

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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2012, 04:54:52 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.

I do think that it would be much better to give his Beatitude back to the Diocese of the South. We shouldn't allow any diocese to go without a bishop for a significant period of time.

This happened in the diocese of the Midwest and thugs began running rampant and they also began trying to innovate with their parishes. Archbishop Job of blessed memory had to deal with those thugs and the wild parishes and I'm certain that the stress is one of the reasons (besides him not going to the hospital like he was advised to) he died earlier than he should have. Now our new archbishop has to deal with the same thing and continue Job's cleanup. A lot of this was due to the incompetence (or corruption?) of the Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman, as well as the general corruption of the Holy Synod at the time. It was their fault we went 5 years without a Bishop.

I really hope the Diocese of the South gets a Bishop soon (hopefully his holiness Jonah) so they don't have to face the same problems that we had to deal with in the Midwest.
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« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2012, 05:23:53 PM »

And if Jonah's frank and orthodox words on contemporary issues have insulted sponsors/donors to the OCA and it's institutions, then screw them, we don't need their money anyway. They should donate because they genuinely love God and want to help his Church not because they want recognition or they want issues like our anti-homosexuality stance to be muted.

If someone donates to receive a plaque or to quiet certain things, they are condemning themselves and their money should be rejected.
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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.

I do think that it would be much better to give his Beatitude back to the Diocese of the South. We shouldn't allow any diocese to go without a bishop for a significant period of time.

This happened in the diocese of the Midwest and thugs began running rampant and they also began trying to innovate with their parishes. Archbishop Job of blessed memory had to deal with those thugs and the wild parishes and I'm certain that the stress is one of the reasons (besides him not going to the hospital like he was advised to) he died earlier than he should have. Now our new archbishop has to deal with the same thing and continue Job's cleanup. A lot of this was due to the incompetence (or corruption?) of the Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman, as well as the general corruption of the Holy Synod at the time. It was their fault we went 5 years without a Bishop.

I really hope the Diocese of the South gets a Bishop soon (hopefully his holiness Jonah) so they don't have to face the same problems that we had to deal with in the Midwest.

Abp. Job died in December 2009. Bp. Matthias was consecrated in May 2011. Are you using some sort of special architectural math to conclude that the Midwest Diocese went without a bishop for 5 years?

I agree about the thugs and wild parishes, though. The drive-by shootings were unnerving.
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2012, 06:03:46 PM »

I belong to the OCA and what is this?
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« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2012, 06:11:23 PM »

I belong to the OCA and what is this?

If you are referring to my comment immediately above, I was kidding. Otherwise, you'll have to be more specific.
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« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2012, 06:14:41 PM »

I belong to the OCA and what is this?

If you are referring to my comment immediately above, I was kidding. Otherwise, you'll have to be more specific.

He is doing a play on a meme that was floating around in which someone said on a youtube video "I am 12 and what is this?" Sometimes it's used for trolling, but in this case it probably is just meant to express confusion or something along those lines.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 06:15:33 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2012, 06:15:16 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.

I do think that it would be much better to give his Beatitude back to the Diocese of the South. We shouldn't allow any diocese to go without a bishop for a significant period of time.

This happened in the diocese of the Midwest and thugs began running rampant and they also began trying to innovate with their parishes. Archbishop Job of blessed memory had to deal with those thugs and the wild parishes and I'm certain that the stress is one of the reasons (besides him not going to the hospital like he was advised to) he died earlier than he should have. Now our new archbishop has to deal with the same thing and continue Job's cleanup. A lot of this was due to the incompetence (or corruption?) of the Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman, as well as the general corruption of the Holy Synod at the time. It was their fault we went 5 years without a Bishop.

I really hope the Diocese of the South gets a Bishop soon (hopefully his holiness Jonah) so they don't have to face the same problems that we had to deal with in the Midwest.

Abp. Job died in December 2009. Bp. Matthias was consecrated in May 2011. Are you using some sort of special architectural math to conclude that the Midwest Diocese went without a bishop for 5 years?

I agree about the thugs and wild parishes, though. The drive-by shootings were unnerving.
The diocese remained widowed for 5 years between Bp. Boris' retirement and Abp. Job of blessed memory. It was a problem.
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« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2012, 06:28:05 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.

I do think that it would be much better to give his Beatitude back to the Diocese of the South. We shouldn't allow any diocese to go without a bishop for a significant period of time.

This happened in the diocese of the Midwest and thugs began running rampant and they also began trying to innovate with their parishes. Archbishop Job of blessed memory had to deal with those thugs and the wild parishes and I'm certain that the stress is one of the reasons (besides him not going to the hospital like he was advised to) he died earlier than he should have. Now our new archbishop has to deal with the same thing and continue Job's cleanup. A lot of this was due to the incompetence (or corruption?) of the Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman, as well as the general corruption of the Holy Synod at the time. It was their fault we went 5 years without a Bishop.

I really hope the Diocese of the South gets a Bishop soon (hopefully his holiness Jonah) so they don't have to face the same problems that we had to deal with in the Midwest.

Abp. Job died in December 2009. Bp. Matthias was consecrated in May 2011. Are you using some sort of special architectural math to conclude that the Midwest Diocese went without a bishop for 5 years?

I agree about the thugs and wild parishes, though. The drive-by shootings were unnerving.
The diocese remained widowed for 5 years between Bp. Boris' retirement and Abp. Job of blessed memory. It was a problem.

Thanks for the clarification. I was confused because that gap occurred well before Devin's time and because Devin mentioned Abp. Job by name and implied Bp. Matthias.
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2012, 06:30:12 PM »

I belong to the OCA and what is this?

If you are referring to my comment immediately above, I was kidding. Otherwise, you'll have to be more specific.

He is doing a play on a meme that was floating around in which someone said on a youtube video "I am 12 and what is this?" Sometimes it's used for trolling, but in this case it probably is just meant to express confusion or something along those lines.

I am older than 12, and I seldom visit YouTube. I also use words like "seldom."
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2012, 06:34:51 PM »

since saints have been invoked, we might remember that Pope St. Athanasius was driven from his see five times, St. John Chrysostom deposed twice, St. Meletius of Antioch deprived of his see for decades, etc.  This might not be the end of Met. Jonah (although the fact that St. John died in exile can be sobering).  We shall have to see what happens, pray, and act as called.

Lord have mercy!

Now that you mention it, St Nektarios also comes to mind.
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2012, 06:48:53 PM »

When did worshipping God become so complicated?   Sad
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2012, 06:49:02 PM »

I belong to the OCA and what is this?

If you are referring to my comment immediately above, I was kidding. Otherwise, you'll have to be more specific.

He is doing a play on a meme that was floating around in which someone said on a youtube video "I am 12 and what is this?" Sometimes it's used for trolling, but in this case it probably is just meant to express confusion or something along those lines.

I am older than 12, and I seldom visit YouTube. I also use words like "seldom."

Good on you!
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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2012, 07:08:32 PM »

When did worshipping God become so complicated?   Sad

The book of Exodus.
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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2012, 07:58:22 PM »

When did worshipping God become so complicated?   Sad

The book of Exodus.

It wasn't THIS complicated
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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2012, 08:10:50 PM »

When did worshipping God become so complicated?   Sad

The book of Exodus.

It wasn't THIS complicated

True. It was only later that kings were offering sacrifices and appointing high priests, and those not even of the line of Aaron...
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« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2012, 08:15:58 PM »

Moscow doesn't care about the OCA since they have the ROCOR.

Not correct. They also have an MP diocese in France, and they still care about Rue Daru.
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« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2012, 08:17:29 PM »

Moscow doesn't care about the OCA since they have the ROCOR.

Not correct. They also have an MP diocese in France, and they still care about Rue Daru.

As current Korsun Bishop is a Rue Daru priest?
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« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2012, 08:32:54 PM »

When did worshipping God become so complicated?   Sad
The book of Exodus.
It wasn't THIS complicated

I know, when there was a dispute, God opened the earth and it swallowed the ones who were in the wrong.

But honestly, this isn't really a matter of doctrine or even liturgical practice. I'm not saying that the misconduct of clergy or lack of cohesion is ever a good thing, only that when it comes to worshipping God, nothing has changed in the OCA, with the exception  of the commemoration of an interim primate on the dyptichs.
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« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2012, 08:55:31 PM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
Correction: I'm not a priest.

Your title, PtA,

"The Right Reverend Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart"

might have caused confusion.

Maybe you could substitute: "The Righteous Humble" for "The Right Reverend."
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« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2012, 08:57:20 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.



That would be a blessing, but I would not hold my breath.
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« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2012, 09:04:26 PM »

Quote
In his letter of resignation, Met. Jonah asks for an ecclesiastical position whereby he can support his parents and sister. Will they honor that request? I doubt it. He might not ever serve as a diocesan bishop again as the decision against him by the Synod was unanimous. Sounds like he is in a similar position as was St. Nectarios.
Certainly if he speaks out, Met. Jonah may not get such a position. Silence seems to be the only option for him.
Blackmail anyone?
I think that he'll get another episcopacy.
Am I correct in thinking that the diocese of the South has been under a locum tenens  bishop since +JONAH was elevated to metropolitan?

Because that's an episcopal chair that's been waiting to be filled for a while.

Close but not exactly.
Archbishop Dmitri was still in place as bishop of the South when his newly installed auxiliary was elected Metropolitan. He held on for a little while longer but his health was in rapid decline and so he retired (and then reposed) in fairly short order afterwards, and we've been without a bishop since.

I don't know anything about the divide between Metropolitan Jonah and the Synod, but I get the impression the diocese of the South would be happy to get the man Vladika Dmitri had chosen as his successor back.

I do think that it would be much better to give his Beatitude back to the Diocese of the South. We shouldn't allow any diocese to go without a bishop for a significant period of time.

This happened in the diocese of the Midwest and thugs began running rampant and they also began trying to innovate with their parishes. Archbishop Job of blessed memory had to deal with those thugs and the wild parishes and I'm certain that the stress is one of the reasons (besides him not going to the hospital like he was advised to) he died earlier than he should have. Now our new archbishop has to deal with the same thing and continue Job's cleanup. A lot of this was due to the incompetence (or corruption?) of the Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman, as well as the general corruption of the Holy Synod at the time. It was their fault we went 5 years without a Bishop.

I really hope the Diocese of the South gets a Bishop soon (hopefully his holiness Jonah) so they don't have to face the same problems that we had to deal with in the Midwest.

Abp. Job died in December 2009. Bp. Matthias was consecrated in May 2011. Are you using some sort of special architectural math to conclude that the Midwest Diocese went without a bishop for 5 years?

I agree about the thugs and wild parishes, though. The drive-by shootings were unnerving.
The diocese remained widowed for 5 years between Bp. Boris' retirement and Abp. Job of blessed memory. It was a problem.

Did not Bishop Boris die a few years ago (sometime around the turn of the century)?
I remember his coming to our parish a few times after his retirement to visit his family.
He was a godly man.
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« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2012, 01:15:54 AM »

Do you presume to know what happened inside the Synod's decision to ask Metropolitan Jonah to resign? If not, don't you think you might be engaging in some premature judgment, possibly even gossip? I have a feeling that the details regarding His Beatitude's resignation will come out over the next few days. Can we not at least wait until then to pass judgment?
Thanks Fr. Peter.  I am not a member of the OCA but I am sick of all the speculation of events and politicking for Metr. Jonah from the former HOOM crowd.
Let's just wait & see.
Correction: I'm not a priest.

Your title, PtA,

"The Right Reverend Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart"

might have caused confusion.

Maybe you could substitute: "The Righteous Humble" for "The Right Reverend."
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« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2012, 10:38:23 AM »

Lord, have mercy.  I hope it all works out for the best.  



This is my sentiments as well.  

Praying for the OCA and Bishops.  

I agree. Frankly, all of the 'looking for a conspiracy' etc... seems misplaced. In the end, it seems that electing a man without pastoral or administrative experience and putting him into the hot seat was too much for the Metropolitan and for the OCA. His own words in his letter of resignation mitigate towards that self-awareness. I wish him well in the years to come and I am sure the OCA will endure - after all it survived over the past century rising out of the struggles with Roman Catholic bigotry which drove thousands of Greek Catholics into Orthodoxy, enduring the pain of the loss of Russian patronage following the Revolution, the multiple schisms of the mid-century in America which occurred during the Communist period in Russia, the McCarthy era when all of us were 'suspects' and the latter third of the century, the Church prevailed - as promised by Lord Himself - the gates of Hell shall not prevail.

Take a deep breath and pray.

(Just my observation ,but returning him to the Diocese of the South may be problematic as both the entire OCA and the Metropolitan need time to reflect and heal themselves. We shall see, but I wouldn't get my hopes up down there.)
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2012, 11:31:40 AM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2012, 11:38:57 AM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.
You're not fired up about this, are ya? Smiley

PP
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2012, 11:48:39 AM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.
You're not fired up about this, are ya? Smiley

PP

When all that crap started last year I was in Greece and already in sort of a revolutionary spirit and got fired up about it. It's just been waiting to come out again once our bishops decide to screw up...

I'm sick of putting up with crap like this and I think we need to send our Bishops the message that we aren't the Roman Church and we so we have the ability to force them out of their positions and remind them that although they are our hierarchs, they are also meant to be in service to us, the chief servant among us even while they have the most authority. So if they want to continue the status quo of disgraceful men like Robert Kondratick and former Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman, then they are going to have to put up with a fight.

And if they still don't listen then we have the right to stop giving them money and to even leave for another jurisdiction.

I have faith Bishop Matthias will continue the fight Archbishop Job was fighting, but if not, then for some of us, Bishop Basil of the Antiochian Church is always a decent option.
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« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2012, 11:59:19 AM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'? A large majority of the current Synod consists of Bishops who were not a part of the prior mess and if my memory is correct three of the most recent Bishops were not even part of the OCA for their entire priestly careers prior to ascending the status of Bishop. The issue of somehow these men not being firmly opposed to the immorality and decadence of our society is a red herring and to perpetuate it as being the 'truth' is a calumny against them. Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory allowed one of the persons in question to serve as your Diocesan representative - it was Bishop Matthias who removed him. That being said, I would never accuse the Archbishop of being part of some left-wing 'liberal' fifth column. That is absurd.

Only in Hollywood does the story of the young man speaking truth to power and being acclaimed to the throne always seem to end with a happy note. Generally speaking such ascendancy in the real world ends like that of the Metropolitan - with a sense of sadness and melancholy over what could or should have been.

Choosing leaders who are not vetted over time, often produces ones who are neither mature in temperment nor tested in the ways of being a leader (such as pastoral experience). Such cases usually do not end well.
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« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2012, 12:15:08 PM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'? A large majority of the current Synod consists of Bishops who were not a part of the prior mess and if my memory is correct three of the most recent Bishops were not even part of the OCA for their entire priestly careers prior to ascending the status of Bishop. The issue of somehow these men not being firmly opposed to the immorality and decadence of our society is a red herring and to perpetuate it as being the 'truth' is a calumny against them. Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory allowed one of the persons in question to serve as your Diocesan representative - it was Bishop Matthias who removed him. That being said, I would never accuse the Archbishop of being part of some left-wing 'liberal' fifth column. That is absurd.

Only in Hollywood does the story of the young man speaking truth to power and being acclaimed to the throne always seem to end with a happy note. Generally speaking such ascendancy in the real world ends like that of the Metropolitan - with a sense of sadness and melancholy over what could or should have been.

Choosing leaders who are not vetted over time, often produces ones who are neither mature in temperment nor tested in the ways of being a leader (such as pastoral experience). Such cases usually do not end well.

Well how about taking about how men like their disgraces Theodosius and Herman were both from the same "neighborhood" in the sense of their state of origin and the fact that area of the country, at least for the OCA has been dying and parishes have been hemmoraging members. I think we ought to really look at ANY Bishop coming from that are of our nation, because if they can't manage their own parishes well, they have no hope for managing a diocese well...

I also wouldn't be surprised if the "old guard" and "good ol boys" are made up of Bishops and Clergy from that region.
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« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2012, 12:42:30 PM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'? A large majority of the current Synod consists of Bishops who were not a part of the prior mess and if my memory is correct three of the most recent Bishops were not even part of the OCA for their entire priestly careers prior to ascending the status of Bishop. The issue of somehow these men not being firmly opposed to the immorality and decadence of our society is a red herring and to perpetuate it as being the 'truth' is a calumny against them. Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory allowed one of the persons in question to serve as your Diocesan representative - it was Bishop Matthias who removed him. That being said, I would never accuse the Archbishop of being part of some left-wing 'liberal' fifth column. That is absurd.

Only in Hollywood does the story of the young man speaking truth to power and being acclaimed to the throne always seem to end with a happy note. Generally speaking such ascendancy in the real world ends like that of the Metropolitan - with a sense of sadness and melancholy over what could or should have been.

Choosing leaders who are not vetted over time, often produces ones who are neither mature in temperment nor tested in the ways of being a leader (such as pastoral experience). Such cases usually do not end well.

Well how about taking about how men like their disgraces Theodosius and Herman were both from the same "neighborhood" in the sense of their state of origin and the fact that area of the country, at least for the OCA has been dying and parishes have been hemmoraging members. I think we ought to really look at ANY Bishop coming from that are of our nation, because if they can't manage their own parishes well, they have no hope for managing a diocese well...

I also wouldn't be surprised if the "old guard" and "good ol boys" are made up of Bishops and Clergy from that region.

-sigh- Nothing like casting a wide net of aspersions based on opinion and bias. No question that the two prior Metropolitans had issues and that resolving those issues was difficult. Do you think it is any easier for any other group of humans to weed out bad apples? Teachers? Cops? Lawyers? Doctors? etc..... But if you are implying that either their ethnic origin (both were Lemkos if my memory serves me right) or that the region from which they came - Pennsylvania- somehow was the cause of these issues - I have only one sentiment - stop being a bigot and grow up. Sorry if that is harsh, but it is easy to stand up and yell about something you care about, but a heck of a lot harder to deal with it intelligently and with understanding and compassion.
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« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2012, 12:49:06 PM »

Quote
-sigh- Nothing like casting a wide net of aspersions based on opinion and bias. No question that the two prior Metropolitans had issues and that resolving those issues was difficult. Do you think it is any easier for any other group of humans to weed out bad apples? Teachers? Cops? Lawyers? Doctors? etc..... But if you are implying that either their ethnic origin (both were Lemkos if my memory serves me right) or that the region from which they came - Pennsylvania- somehow was the cause of these issues - I have only one sentiment - stop being a bigot and grow up. Sorry if that is harsh, but it is easy to stand up and yell about something you care about, but a heck of a lot harder to deal with it intelligently and with understanding and compassion
I think there is nothing wrong with being critical, as long as you're not disrespectful and hurtful. its rare that I agree with Devin on....well...anything but I understand the frustration. When you're on the outside looking in you cant see the whole picture, so you're forced to process what you can see. From many people's point of view, the episcopacy seems to be a bunch of inept do-nothings. Now, I know that is definitely NOT the case but, our emotions get carried away, and well...there ya go.

PP
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« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2012, 12:50:21 PM »

If the Synod takes issue with his words about stepping down and abandoning autocephaly for jurisdictional unity then they can simply shut up and shove it.

The respect I have for the EP also doesn't mean I'm not happy when a canonical bishop openly calls him out on matters where he should be. If the Synod didn't like that they can also shut up and shove it.

If they didn't like the fact that he openly confronted and opposed immorality in our society like abortion and gay marriage then our bishops can shove it.

If they didn't like how he was speaking with conservative Anglicans with the hope of leading them to the churh then the synod can shove it...

Bishop Jonah was under a lot of stress and I will be willing to say that a lot of that is the fault of the Synod.

If any bishop in the synod took issue with his beatitude for any of the above, then that/those bishop(s) can simply take their staffs and shove them far up where the sun don't shine.

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'? A large majority of the current Synod consists of Bishops who were not a part of the prior mess and if my memory is correct three of the most recent Bishops were not even part of the OCA for their entire priestly careers prior to ascending the status of Bishop. The issue of somehow these men not being firmly opposed to the immorality and decadence of our society is a red herring and to perpetuate it as being the 'truth' is a calumny against them. Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory allowed one of the persons in question to serve as your Diocesan representative - it was Bishop Matthias who removed him. That being said, I would never accuse the Archbishop of being part of some left-wing 'liberal' fifth column. That is absurd.

Only in Hollywood does the story of the young man speaking truth to power and being acclaimed to the throne always seem to end with a happy note. Generally speaking such ascendancy in the real world ends like that of the Metropolitan - with a sense of sadness and melancholy over what could or should have been.

Choosing leaders who are not vetted over time, often produces ones who are neither mature in temperment nor tested in the ways of being a leader (such as pastoral experience). Such cases usually do not end well.

Well how about taking about how men like their disgraces Theodosius and Herman were both from the same "neighborhood" in the sense of their state of origin and the fact that area of the country, at least for the OCA has been dying and parishes have been hemmoraging members. I think we ought to really look at ANY Bishop coming from that are of our nation, because if they can't manage their own parishes well, they have no hope for managing a diocese well...

I also wouldn't be surprised if the "old guard" and "good ol boys" are made up of Bishops and Clergy from that region.

-sigh- Nothing like casting a wide net of aspersions based on opinion and bias. No question that the two prior Metropolitans had issues and that resolving those issues was difficult. Do you think it is any easier for any other group of humans to weed out bad apples? Teachers? Cops? Lawyers? Doctors? etc..... But if you are implying that either their ethnic origin (both were Lemkos if my memory serves me right) or that the region from which they came - Pennsylvania- somehow was the cause of these issues - I have only one sentiment - stop being a bigot and grow up. Sorry if that is harsh, but it is easy to stand up and yell about something you care about, but a heck of a lot harder to deal with it intelligently and with understanding and compassion.

I love how you think I don't actually know anything about what happened during the scandal... I bet you actually don't know a lot of what went on and what the supporters of Archbishop Job and opponents of Herman had to suffer.
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« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2012, 12:56:07 PM »

That's not what I said - looking at the composition of the current Synod - at least the major players - they are not the ones who enabled the prior clerical administration of the OCA to mismanage and do what they did. You did not address my critique of your comment regarding the origin of Bishops and the issue of proper training and experience. Archbishop Job was not 'hatched' as a Bishop - he was a pastor for many years in western PA prior to becoming a Bishop and is of a similar background and ethnicity as the ones whom you criticize.
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« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2012, 01:07:34 PM »

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'?

I think that's the core of the 'problem'. We don't 'know' why Metropolitan Jonah was forced out. And while I disagree with Devin's aggressive framing of it, he's absolutely correct that none of the reasons being floated about are actually legitimate reasons to remove a bishop (including a primate) from his see--even if one thinks they are reasons to criticize his Beatitude which is certainly a point of debate.

That said, the Church is not a democracy and the bishops do not 'owe' us an explanation. But I think it is fairly clear that one of the reasons Metropolitan Jonah was elected in the first place was his willingness to speak frankly about things. Given the last few years, there is a lot of distrust of 'the Synod'/'the Central Church Administration'. I doubt this old-style Byzantine forced resignation is going to alleviate that.
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« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2012, 01:10:41 PM »

That's not what I said - looking at the composition of the current Synod - at least the major players - they are not the ones who enabled the prior clerical administration of the OCA to mismanage and do what they did. You did not address my critique of your comment regarding the origin of Bishops and the issue of proper training and experience. Archbishop Job was not 'hatched' as a Bishop - he was a pastor for many years in western PA prior to becoming a Bishop and is of a similar background and ethnicity as the ones whom you criticize.

I don't think I sought to disqualify everyone from that area, but that that we should question the Bishops who do come from there. I'll be honest, I and a few others I know of were very suspicious of Bishop Matthias initially. He seemed to be thronged by the disgraceful Priests who hated and opposed Archbishop Job and supported Herman. Plus he had spent some time in the same region that the two disgraceful Metropolitans had been (possibly with exposure to the same conditions and people who may have supported or influenced them).

It wasn't until the election that a few of us were finally able to warm up to him and despite the disgraceful Priests hanging around him, it seems that he is genuinely a good Bishop and a good successor to Archbishop Job, it seems he is just like Job and refuses to put up with their crap.
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« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2012, 01:11:30 PM »

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'?

I think that's the core of the 'problem'. We don't 'know' why Metropolitan Jonah was forced out. And while I disagree with Devin's aggressive framing of it, he's absolutely correct that none of the reasons being floated about are actually legitimate reasons to remove a bishop (including a primate) from his see--even if one thinks they are reasons to criticize his Beatitude which is certainly a point of debate.

That said, the Church is not a democracy and the bishops do not 'owe' us an explanation. But I think it is fairly clear that one of the reasons Metropolitan Jonah was elected in the first place was his willingness to speak frankly about things. Given the last few years, there is a lot of distrust of 'the Synod'/'the Central Church Administration'. I doubt this old-style Byzantine forced resignation is going to alleviate that.


They don't "owe" us an explanation, but we can certainly force one. (like we did with Metropolitan Herman and thankfully that disgraceful man was forced into retirement)
We may not be a democracy, but we aren't a monarchy or despotism/fascism either.

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« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2012, 01:31:36 PM »

but we aren't a monarchy.

You think not?
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« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2012, 01:39:06 PM »

but we aren't a monarchy.

You think not?

If the Bishop were to tell me to do something, unless it were confession, doctrine or canon, I don't think I'm really obligated to do it.

Also in a monarchy, you don't have the Christian system. That is, the highest authority is meant to be the greatest "servant". Therefore the Bishop is to act like the servant of the laity and the clergy (while the latter are to treat him as their leader). The Priests are to be the servants of the Bishop and the Laity (while the Laity are to treat him as their leader).

When in a monarchy do you see a system such as that? Also, where in a monarchy do you see the people given the ability to approve their monarch, and then force that monarch out of power?
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« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2012, 01:46:36 PM »

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'?

I think that's the core of the 'problem'. We don't 'know' why Metropolitan Jonah was forced out. And while I disagree with Devin's aggressive framing of it, he's absolutely correct that none of the reasons being floated about are actually legitimate reasons to remove a bishop (including a primate) from his see--even if one thinks they are reasons to criticize his Beatitude which is certainly a point of debate.

That said, the Church is not a democracy and the bishops do not 'owe' us an explanation. But I think it is fairly clear that one of the reasons Metropolitan Jonah was elected in the first place was his willingness to speak frankly about things. Given the last few years, there is a lot of distrust of 'the Synod'/'the Central Church Administration'. I doubt this old-style Byzantine forced resignation is going to alleviate that.


They don't "owe" us an explanation, but we can certainly force one. (like we did with Herman and thankfully that disgraceful man was forced into retirement)
We may not be a democracy, but we aren't a monarchy or despotism/fascism either.


We are such products of the modern age - we want, we demand, we believe we are entitled to a wrap up of life's important challenges, set-backs etc... in a sixty minute script or a 24/7 news cycle. Such a need for 'closure' is a bane of our times.

Should Bishop Mathias or Bishop Michael take to Twitter and give one a minute by minute, blow by blow explanation of all that is transpiring? Should the Synod take to Youtube for an excercise in Mea Culpa or self-flaggelation? (Wait, that's way toooo Roman....)

You are so certain that he was 'forced out.' Perhaps.... but perhaps he, himself, came to a personal epiphany regarding his life and his responsibilities. He would not be the first of us to do so.

Calm down, let the dust settle and wait. The Church is akin to a battleship in the middle of the ocean.....course corrections are often unnoticed as they occur, but the destination changes dramatically as a result. If the correction to too sudden or too obvious, unintended consequences may occur. Be patient and pray.
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« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2012, 01:56:09 PM »

How do you 'know' all of this to be the truth regarding your beliefs about the 'fault of the Synod'?

I think that's the core of the 'problem'. We don't 'know' why Metropolitan Jonah was forced out. And while I disagree with Devin's aggressive framing of it, he's absolutely correct that none of the reasons being floated about are actually legitimate reasons to remove a bishop (including a primate) from his see--even if one thinks they are reasons to criticize his Beatitude which is certainly a point of debate.

That said, the Church is not a democracy and the bishops do not 'owe' us an explanation. But I think it is fairly clear that one of the reasons Metropolitan Jonah was elected in the first place was his willingness to speak frankly about things. Given the last few years, there is a lot of distrust of 'the Synod'/'the Central Church Administration'. I doubt this old-style Byzantine forced resignation is going to alleviate that.


They don't "owe" us an explanation, but we can certainly force one. (like we did with Herman and thankfully that disgraceful man was forced into retirement)
We may not be a democracy, but we aren't a monarchy or despotism/fascism either.


We are such products of the modern age - we want, we demand, we believe we are entitled to a wrap up of life's important challenges, set-backs etc... in a sixty minute script or a 24/7 news cycle. Such a need for 'closure' is a bane of our times.

Should Bishop Mathias or Bishop Michael take to Twitter and give one a minute by minute, blow by blow explanation of all that is transpiring? Should the Synod take to Youtube for an excercise in Mea Culpa or self-flaggelation? (Wait, that's way toooo Roman....)

You are so certain that he was 'forced out.' Perhaps.... but perhaps he, himself, came to a personal epiphany regarding his life and his responsibilities. He would not be the first of us to do so.

Calm down, let the dust settle and wait. The Church is akin to a battleship in the middle of the ocean.....course corrections are often unnoticed as they occur, but the destination changes dramatically as a result. If the correction to too sudden or too obvious, unintended consequences may occur. Be patient and pray.

How can you think he was NOT forced out?

Quote
"To the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church in America, Brothers, As per your unanimous request, as conveyed to me by Chancellor Fr. John Jillions, I hereby tender my resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, and humbly request another Episcopal assignment."

The fact that our Synod DIDN'T DEPOSE his disgrace the bastard Metropolitan Herman shows that they were spineless to standing up for the faith. Now they have removed a truly good man in a similar manner to how they remove a totally disgusting man.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:43:54 PM by Second Chance » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2012, 02:04:24 PM »

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« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2012, 10:36:33 PM »

Thread is unlocked. Please remember that it is an Orthodox Christian forum. Second Chance
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« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2012, 06:07:07 PM »

His Beatitude, the Most Blessed Jonah, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of all America and Canada, already did stand up to the Synod. We need to remember that "even a cat may look at the king". +Jonah was the king, but he was treated like the cat. If Metropolitan Tikhon does not issue apologies to his predecessor of blessed memory, the OCA will probably go to the dogs, because the infighting will continue until someone stands up to the system, and if no-one stands up, the system will destroy itself.
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« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2012, 02:38:02 PM »

His Beatitude, the Most Blessed Jonah, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of all America and Canada, already did stand up to the Synod. We need to remember that "even a cat may look at the king". +Jonah was the king, but he was treated like the cat. If Metropolitan Tikhon does not issue apologies to his predecessor of blessed memory, the OCA will probably go to the dogs, because the infighting will continue until someone stands up to the system, and if no-one stands up, the system will destroy itself.

I had to reread this post to make sure of when it was posted and what exactly it said. Please allow me to make a few corrections:

Metropolitan Jonah has resigned and Metropolitan Tikhon was just elected to replace him.

All of Metropolitan Tikhon's predecessors as the elected primates of the OCA are still alive. No need to style them "of blessed memory."

The titles of all of the living OCA primates are:

The Most Blessed Theodosius, Former Archbishop of Washington,
Metropolitan of All America and Canada. Addressed as Your Beatitude.

The Most Blessed Herman, Former Archbishop of Washington and New York, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. Addressed as Your Beatitude.

The Most Reverend Jonah, Former Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. Addressed as Your Eminence.

The Most Blessed Tikhon, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. Addressed as Your Beatitude.
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« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2012, 03:42:29 PM »

The Most Reverend Jonah, Former Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. Addressed as Your Eminence.

Why not "Beatitude"?
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« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2012, 05:11:17 PM »

The Most Reverend Jonah, Former Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada. Addressed as Your Eminence.

Why not "Beatitude"?

My understand is that he resigned from being metropolitan and did not retire like Met. Theodious and Met. Herman.
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« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2012, 12:51:07 PM »

ROCOR and the MP consistently refer to him as "His Beatitude".
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« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2012, 01:53:44 PM »

ROCOR and the MP consistently refer to him as "His Beatitude".

"For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country." (John 4:44)
 
 
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« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2012, 02:58:34 PM »

ROCOR and the MP consistently refer to him as "His Beatitude".

"For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country." (John 4:44)
 
 


Metropolitan Jonah is a good man, but are you really calling him a prophet?
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« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2012, 03:12:05 PM »

No, I'm just saying that he seems to be respected more outside the OCA than inside the OCA.  To some he might be considered a prophet, only history will tell.
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« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2012, 04:50:57 PM »

No, I'm just saying that he seems to be respected more outside the OCA than inside the OCA.  To some he might be considered a prophet, only history will tell.



Not so far as I can tell, especially in GOA. But then that's just a personal observation - anecdotal at best.
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« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2012, 05:15:21 PM »

No, I'm just saying that he seems to be respected more outside the OCA than inside the OCA.  To some he might be considered a prophet, only history will tell.



Not so far as I can tell, especially in GOA. But then that's just a personal observation - anecdotal at best.

Yes, I remember his comments that raised the eyebrows of GOA and EP.  Let's say he's held in more regard in the Russian churches, then.   Wink
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« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2012, 07:05:02 PM »

The Third Rome has finally spoken in favor of Met. Jonah:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48059.0.html
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