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Author Topic: The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name"  (Read 5215 times) Average Rating: 0
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Happy Lutheran
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« on: July 07, 2012, 06:28:41 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE - This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45708.0.html  -PtA


The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....


Mark 9:38-41
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 07:26:01 PM »

It's not built on any human,

The Church is built on a human. Jesus Christ. And He gave authority to the apostles and they passed that authority on to bishops.

Quote
Mark 9:38-41
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are. Cornelius served the God of Israel (Acts 10:2, 10:22) without being a Jew, and the disciples of John the Baptist had to be baptized (Acts 19:1-6). While Acts 18:24-26 doesn't explicitly say that Apollos was baptized, it does say that "they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" and comes immediately before the passage in chapter 19 where the other disciples of John the Baptist were baptized.
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 07:39:26 PM »



The Church is built on a human. Jesus Christ.

Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are.

Correct, I'm confident you know what I meant but if I must I will clarify it was not built on any fallible man (IE the Apostles or anyone else). Christ was the only one who is fully God and fully human in history.

To the second point the visible church is 'where two or three are gathered in my name...where they confess that Christ is the Son of God' as such the scriptures I provided state. If the Rock is anything other than the confession we might as well all be Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 07:45:22 PM »

That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.

Then stop preaching heretical ecclesiology in the Convert Issues forum.
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 07:47:48 PM »



The Church is built on a human. Jesus Christ.

Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are.

Correct, I'm confident you know what I meant but if I must I will clarify it was not built on any fallible man (IE the Apostles or anyone else). Christ was is the only one who is fully God and fully human in history.
I think I made it say what you intended  Smiley.
Quote

To the second point the visible church is 'where two or three are gathered in my name...where they confess that Christ is the Son of God' as such the scriptures I provided state. If the Rock is anything other than the confession we might as well all be Roman Catholics.
Please note that the context of the quote which I have bolded is about reconciliation between believers, not a general statement about faith and worship. It's very specific. (Though I expect others will understand this differently [sigh][/sigh])
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 07:58:09 PM »

That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.

Then stop preaching heretical ecclesiology in the Convert Issues forum.

Yawn...You know most people on this site are pretty nice, much better than CAF but there is still a sense of "You don't agree, get out heretic" on here that's starting to make me think posting here isn't worth my time.
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »

That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.
Then stop preaching heretical ecclesiology in the Convert Issues forum.
Yawn...You know most people on this site are pretty nice, much better than CAF but there is still a sense of "You don't agree, get out heretic" on here that's starting to make me think posting here isn't worth my time.

I think what he's trying to say is that this particular conversation concerning what or who constitutes the Church would be better held in the "Orthodox-Protestant" section of the forum than in the "Convert Issues" section. You could either start a thread there with a quote from this thread to pick up where this left off or wait for a mod to move it. I probably shouldn't have responded to your post in htis section with an argument.
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 09:27:18 PM »

That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.
Then stop preaching heretical ecclesiology in the Convert Issues forum.
Yawn...You know most people on this site are pretty nice, much better than CAF but there is still a sense of "You don't agree, get out heretic" on here that's starting to make me think posting here isn't worth my time.

I think what he's trying to say is that this particular conversation concerning what or who constitutes the Church would be better held in the "Orthodox-Protestant" section of the forum than in the "Convert Issues" section. You could either start a thread there with a quote from this thread to pick up where this left off or wait for a mod to move it. I probably shouldn't have responded to your post in htis section with an argument.

OK, I understand that but I was not the one to bring it up. JamesR did first, then Neon Knights and others and I responded to those posts. Not sure why I would be singled out for getting off topic but whatever, I'll save it for a different thread in the appropriate section.
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 10:23:37 PM »

That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.
Then stop preaching heretical ecclesiology in the Convert Issues forum.
Yawn...You know most people on this site are pretty nice, much better than CAF but there is still a sense of "You don't agree, get out heretic" on here that's starting to make me think posting here isn't worth my time.

I think what he's trying to say is that this particular conversation concerning what or who constitutes the Church would be better held in the "Orthodox-Protestant" section of the forum than in the "Convert Issues" section. You could either start a thread there with a quote from this thread to pick up where this left off or wait for a mod to move it. I probably shouldn't have responded to your post in htis section with an argument.

OK, I understand that but I was not the one to bring it up. JamesR did first, then Neon Knights and others and I responded to those posts. Not sure why I would be singled out for getting off topic but whatever, I'll save it for a different thread in the appropriate section.

It had nothing to do with being off topic, it had to do with you espousing Protestantism when the OP was asking for the Orthodox viewpoint. There's a time and a place.
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 11:43:27 PM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....


You have no credibility.  Matthew 18:20 says that "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."
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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 12:18:40 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

CONTEXT NOTE - This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45708.0.html  -PtA


The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....



That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.

Are not two or three gathered in His name at the Church?



Besides of which, there has to at least be two or more gathered here in Addis Ababa for the Feast of the Epiphany Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 12:57:20 AM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....


You have no credibility.  Matthew 18:20 says that "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."

"Where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" - St. Ignatius

James, you basically just proved his point.
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 01:00:28 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

CONTEXT NOTE - This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45708.0.html  -PtA





That being said I have nothing but respect for Orthodoxy.

Are not two or three gathered in His name at the Church?



Besides of which, there has to at least be two or more gathered here in Addis Ababa for the Feast of the Epiphany Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....

Habte, I don't think he was attacking Orthodoxy. I think he was attacking the triumphalist idea held by many Orthodox Christians that says "The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". If that's true, then I guess the prophets and patriarchs aren't part of the Church, considering "extra ecclasiam nulla salus".

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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 01:34:21 AM »

Habte, I don't think he was attacking Orthodoxy. I think he was attacking the triumphalist idea held by many Orthodox Christians that says "The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". If that's true, then I guess the prophets and patriarchs aren't part of the Church, considering "extra ecclasiam nulla salus".



What the hell? That is not a "triumphalist idea held by many Orthodox Christians." That is the teaching of Orthodoxy.

And the patriarchs and prophets are part of the church. The Orthodox one, the holy, catholic and apostolic one.
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 01:39:54 AM »

Matthew 18:20 says that "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."
What happens if two or three female Episcopal "priests" gather together in His Name?
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 02:15:11 AM »

What does it mean to be gathered in Jesus' name? Indeed, anyone can claim to be gathered in the name of Jesus, but are they really? When people adopt heretical views about Jesus, then they are not gathered in His name but gathered in the name of their own personal Jesus which becomes an idol. Thus, they are not gathered in His name and thus are not a part of the Church. However, those who properly understand and experience Jesus are truly the Church. And we believe that the proper understanding of Jesus is only found in the Orthodox Church and her doctrines.

You are correct that the Church is not built upon any man but Jesus Christ, however, it is built upon the faith of particular men. The foundational faith that the Church is built upon is the confession made by St. Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. All of the Apostles obviously shared this faith, or else Jesus would not have sent them to establish the Church. They built the Orthodox Church upon this confession of faith. So, as much as you Protestants would like to deny it, Apostolic succession is still the ultimate factor in deciding which Church we ought to belong to. The reason being that the Apostles built the Church upon the proper faith, and if we can determine that a Church was established by the Apostles, then we can also conclude that it was built upon the proper faith, and therefore the promise Jesus made that the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church apply to that Church.

Many Protestants may now try to defend their lack of history by stating that they hold the faith of the Apostles even if they cannot historically trace themselves back to the Apostles, but I disagree with this. If they shared the faith of the Apostles then they would be a part of the Orthodox Church and would never have to exist in the first place. Protestantism was born from schism; from someone choosing to follow their own faith over the true faith of the Apostles. If they had the true faith of the Apostles then they would not exist as their own separate Church but would have remained a part of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2012, 02:15:37 AM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20)
"In my name" means more than just the name "Christ". It means Christ's teaching, His way, His traditions. If anyone saying his name were enough, a certain demon would not have terrified the Jews when they attempted to invoke Jesus.
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 02:21:57 AM »

...If anyone saying his name were enough, a certain demon would not have terrified the Jews when they attempted to invoke Jesus.

And, the OP would be forced by his own view to accept that these people are also a part of the Church since they are 'gathered in His name'.
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 02:27:04 AM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20)
"In my name" means more than just the name "Christ". It means Christ's teaching, His way, His traditions. If anyone saying his name were enough, a certain demon would not have terrified the Jews when they attempted to invoke Jesus.

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus? What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?

Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 02:39:09 AM »

"In my name" means more than just the name "Christ". It means Christ's teaching, His way, His traditions. If anyone saying his name were enough, a certain demon would not have terrified the Jews when they attempted to invoke Jesus.

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus?
That's the claim, yeah. But we're talking about more than just teachings.

What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?
What about those within Israel who served idols? Tares and wheat.

Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.

1. "saved vs. unsaved" is some weird crap I don't experientially understand because I've never been an evangelical or baptist or anything like that. Can't help you there.

2. it's "saying" that the Orthodox Church is the Israel of God in Christ. How God deals with people outside of the Israel of God is certainly not with blanket condemnation. St. Paul makes that pretty clear. God is merciful. Everything will be set right in the end, and nothing will be lost.
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2012, 02:45:51 AM »

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus?

Yes.

Quote
What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?

What about them? They were received into the assembly of God via Baptism and Chrismation. They are a part of the Orthodox Church. But a lazy, guilty part that is going to be held accountable before God.

Quote
Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.

That is exactly what I am saying. There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. If you truly understood what we mean when we refer to the Orthodox Church, you would understand me. But because you rely on the simplistic Protestant 'the-Church-is-just-a-building/institution' ecclessiology, this makes absolutely no sense to you.
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2012, 02:51:53 AM »

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus?

Yes.

Quote
What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?

What about them? They were received into the assembly of God via Baptism and Chrismation. They are a part of the Orthodox Church. But a lazy, guilty part that is going to be held accountable before God.

Quote
Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.

That is exactly what I am saying. There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. If you truly understood what we mean when we refer to the Orthodox Church, you would understand me. But because you rely on the simplistic Protestant 'the-Church-is-just-a-building/institution' ecclessiology, this makes absolutely no sense to you.

What do you mean by the Orthodox Church, James?
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2012, 03:02:15 AM »

What do you mean by the Orthodox Church, James?
He means the theanthropic organism into which we were baptised.
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2012, 03:11:13 AM »

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus?

Yes.

Quote
What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?

What about them? They were received into the assembly of God via Baptism and Chrismation. They are a part of the Orthodox Church. But a lazy, guilty part that is going to be held accountable before God.

Quote
Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.

That is exactly what I am saying. There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. If you truly understood what we mean when we refer to the Orthodox Church, you would understand me. But because you rely on the simplistic Protestant 'the-Church-is-just-a-building/institution' ecclessiology, this makes absolutely no sense to you.

What do you mean by the Orthodox Church, James?


The Orthodox Church is the assembly of God's true people under His new Covenant; to whom St. Paul even refers to as the 'body of Christ' (Rom 12:5). There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church because only the Orthodox Church contains the proper teachings, Sacraments and guidance needed for salvation. But this is where it gets tricky. The Orthodox Church is easily identifiable; but it is nearly impossible to know where the Orthodox Church is not. In other words, just because someone may not visibly belong to the Orthodox Church does not mean that they are still not a part of it. More people than we know could already be a part of the Orthodox Church without even knowing it or visibly belonging to its building. Maybe they already understand God in some mystical way even if they cannot identify Him or maybe they are already adhering to the teachings of the Church or living the Orthodox lifestyle without even knowing it or visibly belonging to the building. This is definitely possibly. But alas, we should not get too comfortable and see this as an excuse not to visibly become a part of the Orthodox Church through her buildings because, I would think that if someone was truly living an Orthodox life, and they had the opportunity to visibly join the body of Orthodox believers, that they would go through with it rather than denying it. If you claim to be Orthodox in the heart but are given an opportunity to visibly become a part of the Orthodox Church and choose not to, then I would be led to believe that maybe you were never Orthodox in the heart at all.
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2012, 07:12:19 AM »

If that's true, then I guess the prophets and patriarchs aren't part of the Church, considering "extra ecclasiam nulla salus".

They're commemorated on our calendar.
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« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2012, 07:14:51 AM »

To the second point the visible church is 'where two or three are gathered in my name...where they confess that Christ is the Son of God' as such the scriptures I provided state.

And how do you understand the passages from scripture that I made reference to?
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« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2012, 03:41:12 PM »

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus?

Yes.

Quote
What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?

What about them? They were received into the assembly of God via Baptism and Chrismation. They are a part of the Orthodox Church. But a lazy, guilty part that is going to be held accountable before God.

Quote
Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.

That is exactly what I am saying. There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. If you truly understood what we mean when we refer to the Orthodox Church, you would understand me. But because you rely on the simplistic Protestant 'the-Church-is-just-a-building/institution' ecclessiology, this makes absolutely no sense to you.

What do you mean by the Orthodox Church, James?


The Orthodox Church is the assembly of God's true people under His new Covenant; to whom St. Paul even refers to as the 'body of Christ' (Rom 12:5). There is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church because only the Orthodox Church contains the proper teachings, Sacraments and guidance needed for salvation. But this is where it gets tricky. The Orthodox Church is easily identifiable; but it is nearly impossible to know where the Orthodox Church is not. In other words, just because someone may not visibly belong to the Orthodox Church does not mean that they are still not a part of it. More people than we know could already be a part of the Orthodox Church without even knowing it or visibly belonging to its building. Maybe they already understand God in some mystical way even if they cannot identify Him or maybe they are already adhering to the teachings of the Church or living the Orthodox lifestyle without even knowing it or visibly belonging to the building. This is definitely possibly.
Where do you get this ecclesiology?
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« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2012, 03:57:41 PM »

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Where do you get this ecclesiology?

My Priest; he is a smart man. Why, is it heretical?
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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2012, 05:47:20 PM »

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Where do you get this ecclesiology?

My Priest; he is a smart man. Why, is it heretical?
It's an ecclesiology spouted even by His Eminence, Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware), in his catechetical work, The Orthodox Church. The longer I've been Orthodox, though, the more I've come to disagree with it. There is but one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, not two overlapping churches, one visible and one invisible.
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« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2012, 05:47:34 PM »

"In my name" means more than just the name "Christ". It means Christ's teaching, His way, His traditions. If anyone saying his name were enough, a certain demon would not have terrified the Jews when they attempted to invoke Jesus.

So is the Orthodox Church the only body of Christians who hold the right teachings about Jesus?
That's the claim, yeah. But we're talking about more than just teachings.

What about all those within the Orthodox Church that don't know Jesus at all?
What about those within Israel who served idols? Tares and wheat.

Saying that the Orthodox Church is in itself "The Church" that is, the assembly of believers as a whole, is to essentially say that anybody outside of it isn't saved.

1. "saved vs. unsaved" is some weird crap I don't experientially understand because I've never been an evangelical or baptist or anything like that. Can't help you there.

2. it's "saying" that the Orthodox Church is the Israel of God in Christ. How God deals with people outside of the Israel of God is certainly not with blanket condemnation. St. Paul makes that pretty clear. God is merciful. Everything will be set right in the end, and nothing will be lost.

I would like to also add,and I'm not sure this is a proper interpretation. When Jesus spoke in John 10 about "having other sheep not of this fold". Could He be refering to those outside of the visible Church? I believe He was speaking about non-Jews in particular. This passage also re-enforces your point about the Church being the New Israel of God.
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« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2012, 05:51:00 PM »

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Where do you get this ecclesiology?

My Priest; he is a smart man. Why, is it heretical?
It's an ecclesiology spouted even by His Eminence, Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware), in his catechetical work, The Orthodox Church. The longer I've been Orthodox, though, the more I've come to disagree with it. There is but one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, not two overlapping churches, one visible and one invisible.

You are correct the Church is both physical and spiritual. The modern tendency today is to produce a false dichotomy, pitting the visible against the invisible. It is a true reflection of the incarnation itself.
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« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 07:17:29 PM »

The Church is inextricably associated with the Eucharist. Ontologically speaking, it is pre-eternal and eschatological; it is not merely comprised of those who are alive at any given time on earth. It is visible in the sense that it is made manifest in time and space, when baptized, chrismated Christians gather under their bishop for the Eucharist. Every local church gathered around a legitimate bishop with Apostolic succession, is the catholic Church; complete and whole in and of itself, with the full means of salvation. All that exists beyond that are systems of mutual recognition and communion, but these are functional, not ontological.

It wasn't until after Christianity became aligned with the Roman empire that there was a gradual shift of identifying "the Church" with the oikumene; away from catholic meaning whole and complete, at the local level, to catholic being "universal" geographically. This catholic universalism became the main concern of Christendom in terms of "union."
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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2012, 08:10:38 PM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....


You have no credibility.  Matthew 18:20 says that "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."

"Where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" - St. Ignatius

James, you basically just proved his point.

i think you missed the first part of that quote:


"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St Ignatius of Antioch
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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2012, 10:15:27 PM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....


You have no credibility.  Matthew 18:20 says that "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."

"Where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" - St. Ignatius

James, you basically just proved his point.

i think you missed the first part of that quote:


"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St Ignatius of Antioch


Yeah, an analogy.
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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2012, 01:06:42 AM »

The church is "where two or three are gathered in my name" (Matthew 18:20) and where they confess "You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 16:16). It's not built on any human, Peter or the other Apostles. Also remember Mark 9:38-41....


You have no credibility.  Matthew 18:20 says that "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."

"Where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" - St. Ignatius

James, you basically just proved his point.

i think you missed the first part of that quote:


"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St Ignatius of Antioch


Yeah, an analogy.
How so?
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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2012, 08:52:53 AM »

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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2012, 08:57:05 AM »



Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are. Cornelius served the God of Israel (Acts 10:2, 10:22) without being a Jew, and the disciples of John the Baptist had to be baptized (Acts 19:1-6). While Acts 18:24-26 doesn't explicitly say that Apollos was baptized, it does say that "they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" and comes immediately before the passage in chapter 19 where the other disciples of John the Baptist were baptized.

Cornelius was a Centurion, Apollos was a Jew, they were new to Christianity, so they were outside the visible Church. Of course John the Baptist followers needed to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, all Christians need to be. That's different when they were not a part of any Church before. In my case I was Baptised into the family of God as a baby. My parents were Christians, their parents were Christians, their parents and so on all the way back to whoever was the first to be converted. I don't have a family tree that goes back that far but it could be as far back as when Christianity was spread into the Scandinavian countries.

I guess the disagreement is just going to be I don't think Jesus came to give us a religion. He came to save us from our sins. All who believe are Children of God (John 1:12) All have received Grace (John 1:16) We are part of the true vine and Christ abides in us (John 15:1-5) We are Christs friends (John 15:15) Children and heirs of Christ and God (Romans 8:17) We were chosen by him to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4) and new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) No one shall pluck us out of his hand (John 10:28-30) and we are to welcome one another as Christ has welcomed us (Romans 15:7).

These promises were not met with a disclamer about the Orthodox church.  
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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2012, 09:27:54 AM »



Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are. Cornelius served the God of Israel (Acts 10:2, 10:22) without being a Jew, and the disciples of John the Baptist had to be baptized (Acts 19:1-6). While Acts 18:24-26 doesn't explicitly say that Apollos was baptized, it does say that "they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" and comes immediately before the passage in chapter 19 where the other disciples of John the Baptist were baptized.

Cornelius was a Centurion, Apollos was a Jew, they were new to Christianity, so they were outside the visible Church. Of course John the Baptist followers needed to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, all Christians need to be. That's different when they were not a part of any Church before. In my case I was Baptised into the family of God as a baby. My parents were Christians, their parents were Christians, their parents and so on all the way back to whoever was the first to be converted. I don't have a family tree that goes back that far but it could be as far back as when Christianity was spread into the Scandinavian countries.

I guess the disagreement is just going to be I don't think Jesus came to give us a religion. He came to save us from our sins. All who believe are Children of God (John 1:12) All have received Grace (John 1:16) We are part of the true vine and Christ abides in us (John 15:1-5) We are Christs friends (John 15:15) Children and heirs of Christ and God (Romans 8:17) We were chosen by him to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4) and new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) No one shall pluck us out of his hand (John 10:28-30) and we are to welcome one another as Christ has welcomed us (Romans 15:7).

These promises were not met with a disclamer about the Orthodox church.  
You do realize that's an argument from silence, which is rarely ever convincing?
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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 09:33:03 AM »

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I guess the disagreement is just going to be I don't think Jesus came to give us a religion
Thats correct. He set up a community, called the Church Smiley

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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2012, 09:39:01 AM »



Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are. Cornelius served the God of Israel (Acts 10:2, 10:22) without being a Jew, and the disciples of John the Baptist had to be baptized (Acts 19:1-6). While Acts 18:24-26 doesn't explicitly say that Apollos was baptized, it does say that "they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" and comes immediately before the passage in chapter 19 where the other disciples of John the Baptist were baptized.

Cornelius was a Centurion, Apollos was a Jew, they were new to Christianity, so they were outside the visible Church. Of course John the Baptist followers needed to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, all Christians need to be. That's different when they were not a part of any Church before. In my case I was Baptised into the family of God as a baby. My parents were Christians, their parents were Christians, their parents and so on all the way back to whoever was the first to be converted. I don't have a family tree that goes back that far but it could be as far back as when Christianity was spread into the Scandinavian countries.

I guess the disagreement is just going to be I don't think Jesus came to give us a religion. He came to save us from our sins. All who believe are Children of God (John 1:12) All have received Grace (John 1:16) We are part of the true vine and Christ abides in us (John 15:1-5) We are Christs friends (John 15:15) Children and heirs of Christ and God (Romans 8:17) We were chosen by him to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4) and new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) No one shall pluck us out of his hand (John 10:28-30) and we are to welcome one another as Christ has welcomed us (Romans 15:7).

These promises were not met with a disclamer about the Orthodox church.  
You do realize that's an argument from silence, which is rarely ever convincing?

Using the Word of God as my argument is an argument based on a lack of evidence? I would conclude the opposite, the Orthodox claim to be the one only true church isn't supported by evidence from the Word of God.
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2012, 09:44:05 AM »

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the Orthodox claim to be the one only true church isn't supported by evidence from the Word of God.

The Word of God is a Person, Jesus Christ, not a book, holy as that book may be.
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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2012, 09:46:02 AM »



Acknowledgeing that God can and does work outside the visible boundaries of the Church doesn't change where those visible boundaries are. Cornelius served the God of Israel (Acts 10:2, 10:22) without being a Jew, and the disciples of John the Baptist had to be baptized (Acts 19:1-6). While Acts 18:24-26 doesn't explicitly say that Apollos was baptized, it does say that "they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" and comes immediately before the passage in chapter 19 where the other disciples of John the Baptist were baptized.

Cornelius was a Centurion, Apollos was a Jew, they were new to Christianity, so they were outside the visible Church. Of course John the Baptist followers needed to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, all Christians need to be. That's different when they were not a part of any Church before. In my case I was Baptised into the family of God as a baby. My parents were Christians, their parents were Christians, their parents and so on all the way back to whoever was the first to be converted. I don't have a family tree that goes back that far but it could be as far back as when Christianity was spread into the Scandinavian countries.

I guess the disagreement is just going to be I don't think Jesus came to give us a religion. He came to save us from our sins. All who believe are Children of God (John 1:12) All have received Grace (John 1:16) We are part of the true vine and Christ abides in us (John 15:1-5) We are Christs friends (John 15:15) Children and heirs of Christ and God (Romans 8:17) We were chosen by him to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4) and new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) No one shall pluck us out of his hand (John 10:28-30) and we are to welcome one another as Christ has welcomed us (Romans 15:7).

These promises were not met with a disclamer about the Orthodox church.  
You do realize that's an argument from silence, which is rarely ever convincing?

Using the Word of God as my argument is an argument based on a lack of evidence?
When you use as "evidence" what Jesus didn't say, then yes.

I would conclude the opposite, the Orthodox claim to be the one only true church isn't supported by evidence from the Word of God.
Neither is sola scriptura supported by evidence from the Scriptures.
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2012, 09:53:20 AM »

I only posted what he did say. Plus the Lutheran version of Sola Scripture is not the Anabaptist view. Church history, Creeds etc are important but Scripture is the final judge and the only thing we know as infallible. Traditions can't contradict scripture. The Catholic/Orthodox church can't be infallible otherwise there would have been no Schism.
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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2012, 09:56:20 AM »

I only posted what he did say. Plus the Lutheran version of Sola Scripture is not the Anabaptist view. Church history, Creeds etc are important but Scripture is the final judge and the only thing we know as infallible. Traditions can't contradict scripture. The Catholic/Orthodox church can't be infallible otherwise there would have been no Schism.

That is a bizarre view.

Does that same logic apply to the Arian and Nestorian schisms, for example?
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2012, 09:58:06 AM »

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Plus the Lutheran version of Sola Scripture is not the Anabaptist view
Jury's still out on that one.

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Church history, Creeds etc are important but Scripture is the final judge and the only thing we know as infallible
Doctrinally, scripture is infallible. However, it is not infallible on every minute detail. There is a huge amount of evidence to support that (also some pretty glaring contradictions...everything from differning creation stories, kings that did not exist in the old testament, differing days of the passion.....). I would also say, that the scripture to be the final judge is nowhere IN scripture. So sola scripture fails its own criteria.

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Traditions can't contradict scripture
They dont. However, I'd say that sola scriptura (and the other solas) are traditions in their own right.

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The Catholic/Orthodox church can't be infallible otherwise there would have been no Schism.
No, people arent infallible.

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