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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #540 on: October 11, 2012, 10:28:37 PM » |
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I would really love to see a petition addressed to His Eminence Jonah asking him to repudiate all this nonsense being done in his name.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #541 on: October 11, 2012, 11:23:04 PM » |
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Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #542 on: October 11, 2012, 11:27:34 PM » |
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Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. The ROC is a daughter church of Constantinople. The GOA is the largest jurisdiction by far. By your logic, we should all seriously consider going back under our common mother Church. /s |
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Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
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mike
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« Reply #543 on: October 12, 2012, 02:50:46 AM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... |
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Marc1152
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« Reply #544 on: October 12, 2012, 11:15:45 AM » |
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Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. The ROC is a daughter church of Constantinople. The GOA is the largest jurisdiction by far. By your logic, we should all seriously consider going back under our common mother Church. /s It's not a matter of idle logic but rather an understanding of fairly recent history and current developments. North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction. Period. During the break in communication with Russia during the Communist era many other Orthodox Churches came here and set up shop, hence the mixed up condition we find ourselves in. The most likely next step in fixing what is really an uncanonacal situation here is for the three Russian Jurisdictions to somehow come together, at some level. My observation is that this is already happening among the faithful. +Met Jonah is a frequent and welcome visitor at our local Rocor Cathedral. When we had the Myrah streaming Iveron Icon here last week he was commemorated by name and the parishionesr of the local OCA Parish ( the OCA Preist was in attendance) was added to the list of those being prayed for. Fr. Victo,r Dean of Rocor here in DC helped to vest +Met Jonah when he was enthroned a couple of years ago. Moscow Pat. and Rocor are meeting as we speak and discussing collaboration. Two things had to happen first. Rocor had to make peace with Moscow and the OCA had to clean up it's financial scandal. Now the decks are clear for some serious discussion.. The issue of the GOA is for another day. |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #545 on: October 12, 2012, 11:34:27 AM » |
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I believe that the OCA sees itself as American. Obviously at one time we were part of the ROC. Most of our "Russians" were from the ranks of Greek Catholics returning to Orthodoxy. The MP and the OCA are sister churches. We no longer just a daughter. Also as you may know the OCA has rather large ethnic dioceses: Albanian, Romanian, and Bulgarian. Clearly they do not identify with being Russian. Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. The ROC is a daughter church of Constantinople. The GOA is the largest jurisdiction by far. By your logic, we should all seriously consider going back under our common mother Church. /s It's not a matter of idle logic but rather an understanding of fairly recent history and current developments. North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction. Period. During the break in communication with Russia during the Communist era many other Orthodox Churches came here and set up shop, hence the mixed up condition we find ourselves in. The most likely next step in fixing what is really an uncanonacal situation here is for the three Russian Jurisdictions to somehow come together, at some level. My observation is that this is already happening among the faithful. +Met Jonah is a frequent and welcome visitor at our local Rocor Cathedral. When we had the Myrah streaming Iveron Icon here last week he was commemorated by name and the parishionesr of the local OCA Parish ( the OCA Preist was in attendance) was added to the list of those being prayed for. Fr. Victo,r Dean of Rocor here in DC helped to vest +Met Jonah when he was enthroned a couple of years ago. Moscow Pat. and Rocor are meeting as we speak and discussing collaboration. Two things had to happen first. Rocor had to make peace with Moscow and the OCA had to clean up it's financial scandal. Now the decks are clear for some serious discussion.. The issue of the GOA is for another day. |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #546 on: October 12, 2012, 11:38:44 AM » |
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I dunno. This latest debacle just makes me even more think that when the final future for American Orthodoxy is discussed seriously, the OCA will have to sit at the kids table.
PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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Marc1152
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« Reply #547 on: October 12, 2012, 12:14:37 PM » |
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I believe that the OCA sees itself as American. Obviously at one time we were part of the ROC. Most of our "Russians" were from the ranks of Greek Catholics returning to Orthodoxy. The MP and the OCA are sister churches. We no longer just a daughter. Also as you may know the OCA has rather large ethnic dioceses: Albanian, Romanian, and Bulgarian. Clearly they do not identify with being Russian. Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. The ROC is a daughter church of Constantinople. The GOA is the largest jurisdiction by far. By your logic, we should all seriously consider going back under our common mother Church. /s It's not a matter of idle logic but rather an understanding of fairly recent history and current developments. North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction. Period. During the break in communication with Russia during the Communist era many other Orthodox Churches came here and set up shop, hence the mixed up condition we find ourselves in. The most likely next step in fixing what is really an uncanonacal situation here is for the three Russian Jurisdictions to somehow come together, at some level. My observation is that this is already happening among the faithful. +Met Jonah is a frequent and welcome visitor at our local Rocor Cathedral. When we had the Myrah streaming Iveron Icon here last week he was commemorated by name and the parishionesr of the local OCA Parish ( the OCA Preist was in attendance) was added to the list of those being prayed for. Fr. Victo,r Dean of Rocor here in DC helped to vest +Met Jonah when he was enthroned a couple of years ago. Moscow Pat. and Rocor are meeting as we speak and discussing collaboration. Two things had to happen first. Rocor had to make peace with Moscow and the OCA had to clean up it's financial scandal. Now the decks are clear for some serious discussion.. The issue of the GOA is for another day. The STYLE of worship is Russian. Does the OCA do Orthos Sunday Morning for one example. The OCA has it's roots in the Russian Tradition with also a dose of Greek Catholic influence as you mentioned. There are many OCA parishes in Alaska, which as you know have a strong Russian Orthodox form of piety. |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #548 on: October 12, 2012, 12:21:35 PM » |
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Yes, many OCA parishes do Orthros on Sunday morning. As do GOA parishes - that I know of, anyway.
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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."
St. John Chrysostom
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mike
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« Reply #549 on: October 12, 2012, 01:12:06 PM » |
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North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction.
Strangely, Russians think otherwise. |
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #550 on: October 12, 2012, 03:00:36 PM » |
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North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction.
Strangely, Russians think otherwise. Agreed. As far as I know the MP makes absolutely no claim to jurisdiction in North America. |
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #551 on: October 12, 2012, 03:03:08 PM » |
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Is the style of worship Russian in the Romanian Parishes? Or the Albanian ones? Is anyone here familiar with the practices of these 2 dioceses? I believe that the OCA sees itself as American. Obviously at one time we were part of the ROC. Most of our "Russians" were from the ranks of Greek Catholics returning to Orthodoxy. The MP and the OCA are sister churches. We no longer just a daughter. Also as you may know the OCA has rather large ethnic dioceses: Albanian, Romanian, and Bulgarian. Clearly they do not identify with being Russian. Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. The ROC is a daughter church of Constantinople. The GOA is the largest jurisdiction by far. By your logic, we should all seriously consider going back under our common mother Church. /s It's not a matter of idle logic but rather an understanding of fairly recent history and current developments. North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction. Period. During the break in communication with Russia during the Communist era many other Orthodox Churches came here and set up shop, hence the mixed up condition we find ourselves in. The most likely next step in fixing what is really an uncanonacal situation here is for the three Russian Jurisdictions to somehow come together, at some level. My observation is that this is already happening among the faithful. +Met Jonah is a frequent and welcome visitor at our local Rocor Cathedral. When we had the Myrah streaming Iveron Icon here last week he was commemorated by name and the parishionesr of the local OCA Parish ( the OCA Preist was in attendance) was added to the list of those being prayed for. Fr. Victo,r Dean of Rocor here in DC helped to vest +Met Jonah when he was enthroned a couple of years ago. Moscow Pat. and Rocor are meeting as we speak and discussing collaboration. Two things had to happen first. Rocor had to make peace with Moscow and the OCA had to clean up it's financial scandal. Now the decks are clear for some serious discussion.. The issue of the GOA is for another day. The STYLE of worship is Russian. Does the OCA do Orthos Sunday Morning for one example. The OCA has it's roots in the Russian Tradition with also a dose of Greek Catholic influence as you mentioned. There are many OCA parishes in Alaska, which as you know have a strong Russian Orthodox form of piety. |
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #552 on: October 12, 2012, 04:25:19 PM » |
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I dunno. This latest debacle just makes me even more think that when the final future for American Orthodoxy is discussed seriously, the OCA will have to sit at the kids table.
PP
You may be right but we will not be seated with the ROC or ROCOR. |
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Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #553 on: October 12, 2012, 05:54:13 PM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... LOL ! |
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Basil 320
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Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
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« Reply #554 on: October 12, 2012, 08:59:51 PM » |
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Is the style of worship Russian in the Romanian Parishes? Or the Albanian ones? Is anyone here familiar with the practices of these 2 dioceses? I believe that the OCA sees itself as American. Obviously at one time we were part of the ROC. Most of our "Russians" were from the ranks of Greek Catholics returning to Orthodoxy. The MP and the OCA are sister churches. We no longer just a daughter. Also as you may know the OCA has rather large ethnic dioceses: Albanian, Romanian, and Bulgarian. Clearly they do not identify with being Russian. Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient. OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat. But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR. The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group. The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow by permission of Moscow. Moscow refers to the OCA as a "Daughter Church" . The reunification of Moscow and Rocor may well effect the standing of all three Russian Church's in America. Repeated scandals in the OCA may accelerate events. The ROC is a daughter church of Constantinople. The GOA is the largest jurisdiction by far. By your logic, we should all seriously consider going back under our common mother Church. /s It's not a matter of idle logic but rather an understanding of fairly recent history and current developments. North America falls under Russian Jurisdiction. Period. During the break in communication with Russia during the Communist era many other Orthodox Churches came here and set up shop, hence the mixed up condition we find ourselves in. The most likely next step in fixing what is really an uncanonacal situation here is for the three Russian Jurisdictions to somehow come together, at some level. My observation is that this is already happening among the faithful. +Met Jonah is a frequent and welcome visitor at our local Rocor Cathedral. When we had the Myrah streaming Iveron Icon here last week he was commemorated by name and the parishionesr of the local OCA Parish ( the OCA Preist was in attendance) was added to the list of those being prayed for. Fr. Victo,r Dean of Rocor here in DC helped to vest +Met Jonah when he was enthroned a couple of years ago. Moscow Pat. and Rocor are meeting as we speak and discussing collaboration. Two things had to happen first. Rocor had to make peace with Moscow and the OCA had to clean up it's financial scandal. Now the decks are clear for some serious discussion.. The issue of the GOA is for another day. The STYLE of worship is Russian. Does the OCA do Orthos Sunday Morning for one example. The OCA has it's roots in the Russian Tradition with also a dose of Greek Catholic influence as you mentioned. There are many OCA parishes in Alaska, which as you know have a strong Russian Orthodox form of piety. The "style" of the Divine Services in the Romanian Episcopate of the the OCA is Romanian. Their archdiocese was well developed in America when in 1960 (or so) it affiliated with the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia, the OCA's predecessor. My limited experience with the OCA's Albanian jurisdiction is that it is highly influenced by Russian/OCA style-Typicon, and Russian style singing. Ironically, in my area, the OCA Albanian parish is served by a GOAA priest, "on loan," as they refer to the arrangement, and he uses the Constantinople Typicon, mostly. Historically, the Metropolia "Russified" parishes that joined it. Metropolitan Orestes testified to this as part of the reason why the organizers of ACROD chose to seek affiliation under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Many of the older Antiochian parishes in AOCANA still have remnant Russian style practices, emanating from the early part of the 20th century when St. Raphael of Brooklyn affiliated with the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese of the Aleutians and North America, as the Metropolia was know in that era. |
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"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
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Marc1152
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« Reply #555 on: October 12, 2012, 10:13:12 PM » |
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Yes, many OCA parishes do Orthros on Sunday morning. As do GOA parishes - that I know of, anyway.
Really? Can you point me to one Parish that does that so I can check it out? OCA Church's especially in Alaska and out west are often Old Calendar, no pews, full bearded Priests, Women wear long dresses and have their heads covered and some of them serve in Slavonic. The OCA is not a polyglot of this and that tradition ( with of course the exception of the Romanian Parishes etc.). They are a Russian tradition Jurisdiction with some influence from Ukrainian Catholics who converted when they were snubbed by the Latins. |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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Marc1152
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« Reply #556 on: October 12, 2012, 10:16:56 PM » |
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I dunno. This latest debacle just makes me even more think that when the final future for American Orthodoxy is discussed seriously, the OCA will have to sit at the kids table.
PP
You may be right but we will not be seated with the ROC or ROCOR. Why is that? Perhaps you prefer the Episcopalians. |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #557 on: October 12, 2012, 10:22:14 PM » |
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Yes, many OCA parishes do Orthros on Sunday morning. As do GOA parishes - that I know of, anyway.
Really? Can you point me to one Parish that does that so I can check it out? OCA Church's especially in Alaska and out west are often Old Calendar, no pews, full bearded Priests, Women wear long dresses and have their heads covered and some of them serve in Slavonic. The OCA is not a polyglot of this and that tradition ( with of course the exception of the Romanian Parishes etc.). They are a Russian tradition Jurisdiction with some influence from Ukrainian Catholics who converted when they were snubbed by the Latins. They call it "Matins", but same difference- http://www.orthodoxmiami.org/ |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Marc1152
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« Reply #558 on: October 12, 2012, 10:32:06 PM » |
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From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church   |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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Seraphim98
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« Reply #559 on: October 12, 2012, 11:00:42 PM » |
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Now that is a truly beautiful temple.
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #560 on: October 12, 2012, 11:17:33 PM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem. |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #561 on: October 12, 2012, 11:19:33 PM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem. More like an Ephesian Church now independent of Ephesus.... Now Antioch, on the other hand.... |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #562 on: October 12, 2012, 11:31:19 PM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem. More like an Ephesian Church now independent of Ephesus.... Now Antioch, on the other hand.... Ah, but where did the Church start? |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #563 on: October 12, 2012, 11:36:21 PM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem. More like an Ephesian Church now independent of Ephesus.... Now Antioch, on the other hand.... Ah, but where did the Church start? Well, let's see.... Sts Peter and Paul came to Antioch from.... Ohhhhhh I see what you're getting at. |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Kerdy
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« Reply #564 on: October 13, 2012, 12:44:31 AM » |
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From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me. |
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 12:44:57 AM by Kerdy »
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Kerdy
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« Reply #565 on: October 13, 2012, 12:50:48 AM » |
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I personally do not care what the politics are about or why people are getting feelings hurt. Everyone, in every area, needs to understand what the Church is for and stop whatever it is they are doing to cause problems, regardless of who that person is or what position they fill. I like the OCA and I hope they get things under control. America NEEDS them! Russia NEEDS the Russian Orthodox Church. Greece NEEDS the Greek Orthodox Church and so on. No one on this earth owns any part of any church. It all belongs to God. So, my advice to all of them is get back to work and stop playing around. People need you!
(Disclaimer - I realize there is a lot behind the scenes I know little about, especially after reading this thread, but a little common sense goes a long way and it sounds like some is needed in respect to this thread topic. It’s a messy situation and I am glad I don’t have to sort it all out.)
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choy
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« Reply #566 on: October 13, 2012, 12:53:13 AM » |
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Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.
To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions. I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well. Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite): Constantinoplian - Rome opposed Cypriot - Antioch had opposed Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?... I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one. Why not. I think the Orthodox are in denial, but they need the Pope as a Pope. Well, not totally. First, not as someone with universal ordinary jurisdiction. Perhaps just authority over the Patriarchs and other heads of autocephalous Churches. And also drop the "this is Divinely Instituted" line. But otherwise they do need someone to keep everyone else in line. Back then there was the Emperor. Sure, ideally we don't want to give that authority to a bishop, but can you tell me of an earthly ruler today who is a faithful Christian who looks after the best interest of the Church? Yup, there's only one. The head of state of this little country called The Vatican  |
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #567 on: October 13, 2012, 01:09:16 AM » |
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Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.
To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions. I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well. Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite): Constantinoplian - Rome opposed Cypriot - Antioch had opposed Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?... I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one. Why not. I think the Orthodox are in denial, but they need the Pope as a Pope. Well, not totally. First, not as someone with universal ordinary jurisdiction. Perhaps just authority over the Patriarchs and other heads of autocephalous Churches. And also drop the "this is Divinely Instituted" line. But otherwise they do need someone to keep everyone else in line. Back then there was the Emperor. Sure, ideally we don't want to give that authority to a bishop, but can you tell me of an earthly ruler today who is a faithful Christian who looks after the best interest of the Church? Yup, there's only one. The head of state of this little country called The Vatican No. Sharia first. |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Αριστοκλής
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« Reply #568 on: October 13, 2012, 07:05:46 AM » |
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No. Sharia first. Little difference in this case. |
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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mike
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« Reply #569 on: October 13, 2012, 07:26:44 AM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem. Jewish, not Palestinian. |
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #570 on: October 13, 2012, 07:50:55 AM » |
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I personally do not care what the politics are about or why people are getting feelings hurt. Everyone, in every area, needs to understand what the Church is for and stop whatever it is they are doing to cause problems, regardless of who that person is or what position they fill. I like the OCA and I hope they get things under control. America NEEDS them! Russia NEEDS the Russian Orthodox Church. Greece NEEDS the Greek Orthodox Church and so on. No one on this earth owns any part of any church. It all belongs to God. So, my advice to all of them is get back to work and stop playing around. People need you!
(Disclaimer - I realize there is a lot behind the scenes I know little about, especially after reading this thread, but a little common sense goes a long way and it sounds like some is needed in respect to this thread topic. It’s a messy situation and I am glad I don’t have to sort it all out.)
No need for a disclaimer, you hit the nail on the head... It is interesting in that St. Paul gave the similar advice to the Corinthians some 2000 years ago.... The more things change.... |
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Basil 320
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« Reply #571 on: October 13, 2012, 10:14:00 AM » |
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Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.
As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions. This comment makes more sense and explains Metropolitan Jonah's current circumstances, and the actions of the Holy Synod, more rationally than anything else I've read about this entire matter. |
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"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
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Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
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« Reply #572 on: October 13, 2012, 10:19:35 AM » |
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I would really love to see a petition addressed to His Eminence Jonah asking him to repudiate all this nonsense being done in his name.
People have been asking God to do that for years ...  But I noticed that Metropolitan Jonah's mother has now signed the petition for an investigation. |
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He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better.
- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #573 on: October 13, 2012, 11:08:36 AM » |
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I was unaware that his mother was a member of the OCA. I would really love to see a petition addressed to His Eminence Jonah asking him to repudiate all this nonsense being done in his name.
People have been asking God to do that for years ... But I noticed that Metropolitan Jonah's mother has now signed the petition for an investigation. |
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Marc1152
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« Reply #574 on: October 13, 2012, 12:36:44 PM » |
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From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me. Which is in the Russian style. The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence.. Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated. Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish:  |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #575 on: October 13, 2012, 12:52:13 PM » |
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Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...
I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.
We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way? Indeed. News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost. That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople... And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem. Jewish, not Palestinian. Well Jewish isn't an area of land; Palestine is. |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Kerdy
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« Reply #576 on: October 13, 2012, 08:59:03 PM » |
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From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me. Which is in the Russian style. The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence.. Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated. Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish: I understand the basic history. I believe the reason for debate isn't historical, rather present conditions. I get the feeling the OCA thinks of itself as American, for America, not subjugated to Russia. I belong to a Greek parish which meetings in a small church owned by the Roman Catholic Church down the highway. That doesn't make us Catholic. Personally, I feel ethnicity in America is holding the Church down, a crutch used for comfort rather than following the great commission, but I am certain, as I have seen on this forum, various arguments against this opinion. We are all one Orthodox Church and if we can ever figure out how to operate as such, imagine the glories which could be accomplished for God. But it's just my new convert views and I could be missing out on something very important. |
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Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
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« Reply #577 on: October 13, 2012, 09:06:46 PM » |
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I was unaware that his mother was a member of the OCA.
Metropolitan Jonah's mother is not in the OCA, that's true. The petition is not about supporting Metropolitan Jonah, it's asking for an impartial investigation of the circumstances surrounding his resignation. Her signature on the petition strikes me as significant because she more than likely witnessed some of those events personally. |
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He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better.
- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #578 on: October 13, 2012, 09:26:07 PM » |
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I would imagine that any investigation would revolve around Abp. Jonah as it was his voluntary act to resign. I would imagine she could just ask him. I was unaware that his mother was a member of the OCA.
Metropolitan Jonah's mother is not in the OCA, that's true. The petition is not about supporting Metropolitan Jonah, it's asking for an impartial investigation of the circumstances surrounding his resignation. Her signature on the petition strikes me as significant because she more than likely witnessed some of those events personally. |
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #579 on: October 13, 2012, 09:36:41 PM » |
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From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me. Which is in the Russian style. The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence.. Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated. Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish: It is debatable because you keep on using a term that is not correct: OCA is an autocephalous church, she is not an independent church. If she were independent, she would be part of another church. Do you now see? |
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Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
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Basil 320
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« Reply #580 on: October 14, 2012, 01:07:22 AM » |
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Yes, such an excellent point. The Holy Orthodox Churches are united in communion and doctrine. The petition of the Divine Liturgy "..for the good estate of the Holy Churches of God, and unity of them, let us pray to the Lord," is one of our prayers so that all Orthodox Christians pray for the the unity of the church, the One Church.
In addition to manifesting our unity through the chalice, I always look to the Bishop's Throne, which reminds all Orthodox Christians that they are not "independent" parishes, but "dependent" parishes, dependent on the authority of our bishop. Throughout the world, Orthodox Christians pray "First of all, remember our Bishop...," who, commemorates the head of the provincial synod of which he is a member, and the "First among them," the primate of a region, commemorates the primate of the Holy Synod which governs his province; (not there there is necessarily a province), in which case the diocesan bishop commemorates the primate of the Holy Synod of which he is a member. And finally, the primates of the Holy Churches, commemorate each other, all the primates or heads ("celfaly," in Greek) of the Holy Orthodox Churches, a wonderful witness of the unity of the Holy Orthodox Church.
For those who don't know, "autocephalos" means "self-headed," simply having the privilege or right of electing the head of the local church, without reference to another of the sister Orthodox Churches, such as in regard to an "autonomous" church which must have the election of its primate, or first hierarch, approved by the mother church to which it refers, or is under.
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #581 on: October 14, 2012, 08:47:00 PM » |
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I have no idea why I went over to the Monomakhos blog. I read all these conspiracy theories (the HS are really Nestorian Werewolves). One person states a falsehood and everyone quotes the falsehood because it is part of the "public record". When I ask for proof for these wild accusations they ignore it and just keep on feeding off one another. I am starting to get really aggravated. the question was asked earlier if Abp Jonah was behind this. Then somesone stated that his mother signed this scandalous petition. Now there is someone posting who states that she is his mother on the unofficial FB Page of Abp Jonah. Stating that he was forced to resign against his will...under threat. The Holy Synod only mistake was allowing this buffonery to go on for 4 years and for allowing this to continue post resignation. I will be contacting the HS to beg them to finally hold Abp Jonah accountable for his actions.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #582 on: October 14, 2012, 09:18:17 PM » |
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Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.
To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions. I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well. Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite): Constantinoplian - Rome opposed Cypriot - Antioch had opposed Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?... I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one. Why not. I think the Orthodox are in denial, but they need the Pope as a Pope. Well, not totally. First, not as someone with universal ordinary jurisdiction. Perhaps just authority over the Patriarchs and other heads of autocephalous Churches. And also drop the "this is Divinely Instituted" line. But otherwise they do need someone to keep everyone else in line. Back then there was the Emperor. Sure, ideally we don't want to give that authority to a bishop, but can you tell me of an earthly ruler today who is a faithful Christian who looks after the best interest of the Church? Yup, there's only one. The head of state of this little country called The Vatican Oh yes, the Pope has done such an excellent job holding all the Roman Catholics in line. Send in the clowns! |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Seraphim98
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« Reply #583 on: October 15, 2012, 01:01:19 AM » |
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The Holy Synod only mistake was allowing this buffonery to go on for 4 years and for allowing this to continue post resignation. I will be contacting the HS to beg them to finally hold Abp Jonah accountable for his actions. From my perspective their essential mistake was pushing him to resign. But be that as it may…just what actions are you proposing Metropolitan Jonah be held "accountable" for…his mother taking umbrage at how he was treated…or at least someone claiming to be his mother. What has he done except keep quiet publicly since his resignation? Or is it because he's kept quiet and not justified the Holy Synod in what they did to him. After the way he has been lied about, vilified, mocked, disrespected, you name it…he's supposed to step back in the middle of it to tell those who think he was wronged…"Hush now I deserved all the terrible things that were said about me and done to me…for the greater good…you know…and if they do even more it's OK…just don't worry your heads about it…I'll just give up on life quietly and get a greeter's job at Walmart. I'll be fine." Where have I heard the old "tell your people to be quiet" line before….seems there was something about "the rocks crying out" if they did…or maybe it was "give us Barrabus" who can keep these silly things straight anyway. Even though I think it is the right thing to do…at least to offer, I don't think it is likely Metropolitan Jonah will be reinstated as the primate of the OCA…though miracles do happen. If they can't walk that decision back they should at least establish him in a diocese…and if they can't find the Christian charity to that…then let him go to ROCOR or the MP or whoever else might be willing to receive him. And as for Monomakhaos…I have read it too, especially since July (didn't know about it before then). I don't see there what you see. I do see a lot of anger. I do see a lot of frustration. I don't see conspiracy theories. I don't see absurd or ridiculous accusations….most of the one's I've seen look pretty solidly established…some painstakingly so….and I never once saw any member of the Holy Synod referred to as a Nestorian…and would that it were so simple that some were werewolves…how to deal with that sort of monster is fairly well established in tradition and folklore. How to deal with the ostensible bad actors on the Holy Synod and at Syossett is another kettle of stinky fish entirely. And as for writing…I suppose our "votes" will cancel each other out as I've written to members of the Holy Synod and to Syossett asking them to reconsider the wisdom of what they have done. |
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« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 01:12:37 AM by Seraphim98 »
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #584 on: October 15, 2012, 10:04:49 AM » |
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Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?
Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."
St. John Chrysostom
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