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Author Topic: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation  (Read 40545 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #495 on: October 10, 2012, 11:43:17 AM »

Is it now schismatic to switch jurisdictions?  That just says some of them want to go under Moscow.  Whoopdedoo.
This is only one person, but the sentiment expressed here is not just "switching jurisdictions":
Quote
...everyone else who wants to come along under Moscow, and declare the remainder vagante and break communion with them.

I looked back at the original thread.  It looks to me like that comment was made in response to George's statement that Moscow would "de-recognize" the OCA's autocephaly, and this poster's contention that he/she wanted that to happen.  

I don't really know how "de-recognizing" an autocephaly would happen.  It's about as likely as everyone involved waking up one morning and reconciling while singing "Good Morning Starshine" in unison.  

However, if somehow nobody recognized the OCA as an autocephalous church anymore, the remains of the OCA would be non-canonical if they didn't go under another church, like Moscow.  So while that would be schism, it would not be those who remain with the canonical church who would be the schismatics, but the putative independents.

One more thing:  I am still interested in hearing how Metropolitan Jonah is behind all this.

Folks can switch jurisdictions and do, but often it is because they end up in a new location where they have no other choice but attend the available parish. Let me give myself as an example: when I was in the USAF, I moved around a lot and thus ended up attending GOA and AOIA churches at times, even though I started in the Bulgarian Church overseas and ended up in the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA in the United States. I have also witnessed individuals switch parishes in a locality because of personal issues. I am not talking about these examples as examples of schism. I am talking about a concerted movement based on a common theme that transcends individuals. The Old Believers schism was caused for such a reason, the old/new calendar dispute caused schisms, dogmatic disputes caused the EO-OO schism, as did the EO-RC schism. In this instance, the situation is quite different than individual happenstances.

To fully respond to your question on +Jonah's involvement in all this, I am still rereading the copious comments on Monomakhos.

Regarding the indications of schism, I just showed you how it started, but it got worse over time. I will select the low-hanging fruit and present them to you in a platter, but you must give me time--let's say a week.

I think you should have had this prepared before making those allegations.  I am not impressed with what you have given so far.

Then again, you apparently come from a place where a bishop who sends a girl text messages about having a crush on her and wanting to stay at her apartment alone, and tells her to keep it a secret, is not sexually harassing her.

I am just heartbroken that I have unable to quickly and thoroughly impress you. Tell you what: I am done with you. I am suspending my search of Monomakhos for the second indication of +Jonah's involvement in this. The reason is simple: I did not expect, nor appreciate, that sucker punch you just threw at me; I had not brought in the +Matthias matter into our conversation, had I?

Couple of points here: First: Sexual harassment is a legal term and usually has application to the workplace and the employer/employee relationship. I don't think that situation existed here. If accurate, there are other terms with which to describe it. Second point: While the website in question certainly posted the documents about which we speak, there is no way to verify their accuracy or completeness. Third point: If they are accurate, then the Synod will have to deal with this and for us to pontificate upon an appropriate response as lay interloopers on the anonymous internet is at best unfair and at worst bordering on sinful.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 11:44:45 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #496 on: October 10, 2012, 12:23:16 PM »

Regarding Metropolitan Jonah's Facebook page, I can accept that the Metropolitan himself may not have posted anything on this "unofficial fanpage." I also want to thank Podkarpatska and Benjamin the Red for pointing this out to me. In that case, I would call upon his supporters, advisors and even His Eminence to pay attention to what is posted there, small print notwithstanding.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 12:24:05 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #497 on: October 10, 2012, 02:27:04 PM »

I think you should have had this prepared before making those allegations.  I am not impressed with what you have given so far.

Then again, you apparently come from a place where a bishop who sends a girl text messages about having a crush on her and wanting to stay at her apartment alone, and tells her to keep it a secret, is not sexually harassing her.

I am just heartbroken that I have unable to quickly and thoroughly impress you. Tell you what: I am done with you. I am suspending my search of Monomakhos for the second indication of +Jonah's involvement in this. The reason is simple: I did not expect, nor appreciate, that sucker punch you just threw at me; I had not brought in the +Matthias matter into our conversation, had I?

Maybe it was a sucker punch to bring up Bp. Moriak, but it showed poor information analysis on your part.  

I guess I should have just waited a few minutes.  I did not know you were about to proclaim that Metropolitan Jonah has shared the petition link on a Facebook fan page, when he does not operate or even read that Facebook page.

Whether you like me or not, you still need to document your claim that Metropolitan Jonah is somehow galvanizing the lay movement to restore himself to office.  All I remember anyone there saying is how His Beatitude is doing and where he is celebrating services.  Now that is truly scandalous intel.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 02:30:01 PM by Orual » Logged

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« Reply #498 on: October 10, 2012, 02:45:10 PM »

I think you should have had this prepared before making those allegations.  I am not impressed with what you have given so far.

Then again, you apparently come from a place where a bishop who sends a girl text messages about having a crush on her and wanting to stay at her apartment alone, and tells her to keep it a secret, is not sexually harassing her.

I am just heartbroken that I have unable to quickly and thoroughly impress you. Tell you what: I am done with you. I am suspending my search of Monomakhos for the second indication of +Jonah's involvement in this. The reason is simple: I did not expect, nor appreciate, that sucker punch you just threw at me; I had not brought in the +Matthias matter into our conversation, had I?

Maybe it was a sucker punch to bring up Bp. Moriak, but it showed poor information analysis on your part.  

I guess I should have just waited a few minutes.  I did not know you were about to proclaim that Metropolitan Jonah has shared the petition link on a Facebook fan page, when he does not operate or even read that Facebook page.

Whether you like me or not, you still need to document your claim that Metropolitan Jonah is somehow galvanizing the lay movement to restore himself to office.  All I remember anyone there saying is how His Beatitude is doing and where he is celebrating services.  Now that is truly scandalous intel.

1. Regarding his Facebook page, see my posting immediately above.

2. Regarding my claim, to wit "There are indications that +Jonah himself is encouraging folks to get himself reinstated. It is not clear why he is doing so," I do not have any smoking gun. That is the reason why I phrased it the way I did.  I stand by my statement.
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« Reply #499 on: October 10, 2012, 02:49:02 PM »

Some Developments:

People on "Monomakhos" are planning on voting for Metropolitan Jonah for the Primacy again; and voting to expand the 17th AAC agenda.

City of Parma Police have been asked to serve as security during the 17th AAC.

Bishop Alexander of Toledo who is the Locum Tenens of the Archdiocese of Washington, vetoed a duly elected AAC Alternate, a devout member of the St. Nicholas National Cathedral and War Memorial, who had written an essay questioning the Synod's forcing Metropolitan Jonah's resignation.  

The essay had been posted on the web site of Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL), but was recently deleted.  Archbishop Nathanial of Detroit, Locum Tenens of the OCA's Primatial Throne, is on the OCL's advisory board along with his Chancellor of the Romanian Episcopate, and is scheduled to celebrate the Hierarchal Divine Liturgy, which is planned to be held at St. Nicholas Cathedral, during the forthcoming OCL annual conference.  Bishop Michael of Baltimore is scheduled to concelebrate.

The OCA website identifies Metropolitan Jonah as "retired" apparently to keep him from being invited to the 3rd annual AOCB assembly.

The Holy Synod was scheduled to meet at the Chancery today, no report as yet on the OCA web site.  Topics to be addressed would be the matter of the investigation of the sexual harassment allegation against Bishop Matthias of Chicago, and an assignment for Metropolitan Jonah, in response to his request included in his letter of resignation, whose remuneration was scheduled to end at this time.  Last week, Bishop Michael was reported to have said  Bishop Matthias would be exonerated.

who is Bishop Michael of Baltimore?

My mistake.  I should have said Bishop Mark of Baltimore, the Metropolitan's auxiliary bishop responsible for Departments and Commissions of the OCA.  Bishop Mark was previously the Bishop of Toledo (I think) of the AOCANA, who attempted to impose a requirement for annual private auditing of parishes in his diocese and ran into conflicts with Metropolitan Phillip because he was butting heads with parish priests who were Metropolitan Phillip's buddies.  Met. Phillip was transferring him to the Northwest, whereupon, he negotiated with the OCA for transfer to it, which Met. Phillip approved.  He was initially appointed Administrator of the Diocese of the South, but ran into conflicts with many in the Diocesan Cathedral.  It was revealed that he was responsible for accessing the e-mail account of the previous Chancellor of the Diocese of the South and transmitting pertinent e-mail messages to OCANews for publication, the internet site of Orthodox Christians for Accountability.  His appointment to the Chancery is recent.

 I apologize for the error in my previous post, Reply No. 459.

I am not aware of any revelation that Bishop Mark did anything wrong or gave any emails to OCANEWS. What evidence do you have that he did this?
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« Reply #500 on: October 10, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »

I think you should have had this prepared before making those allegations.  I am not impressed with what you have given so far.

Then again, you apparently come from a place where a bishop who sends a girl text messages about having a crush on her and wanting to stay at her apartment alone, and tells her to keep it a secret, is not sexually harassing her.

I am just heartbroken that I have unable to quickly and thoroughly impress you. Tell you what: I am done with you. I am suspending my search of Monomakhos for the second indication of +Jonah's involvement in this. The reason is simple: I did not expect, nor appreciate, that sucker punch you just threw at me; I had not brought in the +Matthias matter into our conversation, had I?

Maybe it was a sucker punch to bring up Bp. Moriak, but it showed poor information analysis on your part.  

I guess I should have just waited a few minutes.  I did not know you were about to proclaim that Metropolitan Jonah has shared the petition link on a Facebook fan page, when he does not operate or even read that Facebook page.

Whether you like me or not, you still need to document your claim that Metropolitan Jonah is somehow galvanizing the lay movement to restore himself to office.  All I remember anyone there saying is how His Beatitude is doing and where he is celebrating services.  Now that is truly scandalous intel.

1. Regarding his Facebook page, see my posting immediately above.

The small print is that the page does not speak for Metropolitan Jonah in any way.  You made a statement that he posted something there.  Then when you were corrected, you had to say, "He may not have".  You need to produce evidence that shows there is even a possibility that Metr. Jonah is personally behind the contents of his fan page.

Quote
2. Regarding my claim, to wit "There are indications that +Jonah himself is encouraging folks to get himself reinstated. It is not clear why he is doing so," I do not have any smoking gun. That is the reason why I phrased it the way I did.  I stand by my statement.

You say, "There are indications" and then said it wasn't clear "why he is doing so", "he is doing so" being a definite statement that His Beatitude is in fact doing a certain thing, while you now admit you do not have proof of this accusation.  

Furthermore, you do not say what "indications" there are, besides the utterly unverifiable statement that an unknown male individual whom you trust said so, and a Monomakhos posting you have both said you cannot find and refuse to find.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 03:11:20 PM by Orual » Logged

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« Reply #501 on: October 10, 2012, 03:55:14 PM »

I'd just like to observe that it is not impossible to get people to stop doing things on your behalf that you may not approve of or want them to do. You tell them that you don't like it and they need to stop.
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« Reply #502 on: October 10, 2012, 04:18:14 PM »

Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 04:21:51 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #503 on: October 10, 2012, 04:23:39 PM »

Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve that.

Ah Michal, I just knew that a son of Belarus would be able to comprehend the inner-sanctum of the minds of Rusyn-Americans and all of their complicated orientations!
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« Reply #504 on: October 10, 2012, 04:55:12 PM »

Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.

Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

James, go easy on me during your purging of the Church.
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« Reply #505 on: October 10, 2012, 05:10:10 PM »

Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.

Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

James, go easy on me during your purging of the Church.

I don't think Papa Joe succeeded, at least as to the Rusyn/Ruthenians remaining in Slovakia and Transcarpathia. Between the Greek Catholics and Orthodox factions there, the same divisions and issues persist to the present day!
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« Reply #506 on: October 10, 2012, 05:24:13 PM »

Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 05:27:19 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #507 on: October 10, 2012, 05:33:08 PM »

I think one of the main difficulties with autocephaly for the US church is that it lacks unity. One head for one body, but where is this on body? Like I asked in another thread about Italy, do all Orthodox in America want to be one, or at least a hegemonic majority? Clearly the answer is no. They (and I include converts) much rather prefer the embassy format of Church and not having to deal with the "others". I can understand. Each group must think "things here are complicated as they are, imagine if we have to deal with all those exotic other guys I don't entirely understand and who have different or even competing interests".
Unity can be achieved bottom-up or top-down. There clearly is no hegemonic interest on either tip, so, no deal. Those who are interested must transmit this interest to the others. I don't know how really, but I can't see any other way.


Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.
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« Reply #508 on: October 10, 2012, 05:37:18 PM »

Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.

Michal raises a solid point. The traditional Orthodox model of national Churches made sense in the world which existed pre-1848. But, as a consequence of the rise of nationalism and the modern nation-state, the wars and mass immigration which followed ( and continue on to the present - as in the mideast ) and the collapse of the Soviet bloc this entire issue of Church governance is begging for a modern solution. Rome's model failed, the Orthodox model was sustainable through relatively modern times but today's map and demographic realities are a real challenge.
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« Reply #509 on: October 10, 2012, 05:39:59 PM »

I think one of the main difficulties with autocephaly for the US church is that it lacks unity. One head for one body, but where is this on body? Like I asked in another thread about Italy, do all Orthodox in America want to be one, or at least a hegemonic majority? Clearly the answer is no. They (and I include converts) much rather prefer the embassy format of Church and not having to deal with the "others". I can understand. Each group must think "things here are complicated as they are, imagine if we have to deal with all those exotic other guys I don't entirely understand and who have different or even competing interests".
Unity can be achieved bottom-up or top-down. There clearly is no hegemonic interest on either tip, so, no deal. Those who are interested must transmit this interest to the others. I don't know how really, but I can't see any other way.



Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.

So Michal what do you think the solution would be?

You seem wise beyond your years and all that.

And we have podkarpatska who is wise beyond his years even if his years are quintuple or whatever yours.

Two great minds. Youthful out of the box thinking. Weathered and seen it all wisdom

We should have a solution by tomorrow.

Srly, what do you think?
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« Reply #510 on: October 10, 2012, 05:41:18 PM »

Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.

To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.

Michal raises a solid point. The traditional Orthodox model of national Churches made sense in the world which existed pre-1848. But, as a consequence of the rise of nationalism and the modern nation-state, the wars and mass immigration which followed ( and continue on to the present - as in the mideast ) and the collapse of the Soviet bloc this entire issue of Church governance is begging for a modern solution. Rome's model failed, the Orthodox model was sustainable through relatively modern times but today's map and demographic realities are a real challenge.

You preempted my selection of you and Michal as the answerers of the problem here.

Please let me flaunt my self appointed authority properly.
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« Reply #511 on: October 10, 2012, 06:26:59 PM »

The problem online is that there usually are no answers - only opinions.
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« Reply #512 on: October 10, 2012, 07:04:02 PM »

Opinions are how answers start. That said, our propensity to be very conservative (a very good thing in general) at times puts us into a box out of which we cannot escape. The Paris School, in a continuation of the pre-revolution reform movement, attempted to purge Russian Orthodoxy from the Western influences that had crept in. The main way that this was done was through appeal to the Early Church Fathers so that one can better understand what is part of Holy Tradition and what is pious custom. We all know that this effort unfortunately got conflated with others' ill-considered and badly executed reforms that tarred the whole notion of reform in many folks' minds. But, must we always be so fearful of change, any change, that, in the case of Russian Church and her progeny, we must be forever frozen in the pre-1917 praxis? The answer to Church governance is not in quasi-papal approaches that seem to be a continuing attraction for the holders of the sees of Constantinople and Moscow. The answer obviously is not any of the heterodox models. I think that we will not have a solution if we do not internalize Father Schmemann's admonition that the Orthodox Church is indeed hierarchical. We also have to do two more things.

First, we should understand that our priests are in effect Deputy Bishops who when surrounded by their flocks, particularly during the Divine Liturgy, are very much the ontologically complete Body of Christ. This does not in any way diminish from the fact that we do not have Orthodoxy without Orthodox canonical bishops running dioceses and ensuring all of their parishes are in consonance with the Holy Tradition. Since the days of one-city one-church, the reigning bishops have reigned through their presbyters.

Second, we must figure out the duties and responsibilities of the rest of the laos. We need to clarify the role of permanent deacons and deaconesses, particularly in light of their original functions. And, we must develop some ministries, duties and responsibilities for the laity. W can no longer afford to have two different kinds of the people of God: the active and the passive.

I prayt that what we are experiencing in the OCA is similar to birth pangs; painful but hopefully of short duration. If only we can see a larger, greater purpose behind the scandals and strife!
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« Reply #513 on: October 10, 2012, 07:20:02 PM »

I think we do not have one case here, but the two of them: How to reduce the likelihood of problems in the "barbarian" Churches and how to solve the problems that already exist.

As to the second one question, I really do not believe that OCA is the only one autocephalous Church with such issues. I'm pretty sure each church have theirs (maybe even bigger than the OCA's). However the OCA is the only one Church where an average Joe can get to know about each and every minor or major problem within the church and can discuss it or express their emotions. That creates some insecurity among the faithful and makes the OCA look not serious from the outside.

For example, the Russian Church almost do not speak out about their internal problems. They prefer to deal with them in conspiracy with the help of the state, not informing the faithful. The argument for that is that the faithful are not troubled, the argument against - some of the irregularities might be tolerated unless they threaten the integrity of the Church.

I think we need to find something in between. Not to hide everything and not to allow the faithful to decide about every pet issue - we do not live in underground communities of several hundred people that know everything about each other. IMHO the best solution is when the faithful have influence (if they want that) on the lowest parish level (like calendar / language / Greek or Russian phelonion) - because that's what they care about most and on the top level (like choosing the primate) - because such issues can negatively impact them most strongly . Everything in between - deanery and dioceasan level (including nominating parish priests and dioceasan bishop) should be left for the pastors, deans and bishops. They better know how to solve such things and have more information to solve them.

Despite the fact that the second question cannot be solved easily, the first question is much more tricky. There is the EP's solution (try to control everything everywhere), there is the Russian one (control everything that is close to us, ignore the rest), there is the Serbian/Romanian/Bulgarian one (care about our people, ignore the rest). There even used to be Metropolitan Basil of Warsaw and all Poland who wanted to receive everyone into the Church and gave them all the freedom they want, so he accepted Milan Synod Metropolitanate of Spain, Portugal and Brazil, some ROCOR parish(es) in Italy, some converts in Germany (I've even hear there were some parishes in Australia too but I couldn't confirm that), and some American Eastern Catholic monks who moved to Poland.

The more strict approach reduces the amount of problems to be dealt with (at least in theology, liturgics, and orthopraxis - I know I am generalising here because I personally think no institution contributed to these things in the modern times as the SVS), but it stirs resentment among the faithful overseen by a bishop 10 Mm far due to his ignorance of local realities and, sometimes, some national issues. The second one approach results in the exactly opposite effects.

There is one Church that gained loads of converts in the recent years (several times more than the amount of American or Western European Hermans), expanded 10-20-50(?) times in the terms of area yet it handles their issues quite well. That's the Church of Alexandria. From several dozens of thousends in the 1960' to the several millions now. How did they do that?

First of all, they have extremely good mission-oriented and open bishops yet educated in the old countries. Most of them were born outside of Africa and even the native ones (currently two, 5-7 in total - not sure) were educated abroad and received traditional (I hate that adjective) Orthodox education in the traditional (hate) Orthodox environment surrounded by traditional (hate) Orthodox laymen, priests, monks, and hierarchs. They also do not ordain the locals for higher positions provided they know the locals would handle dioceses without major problems. They do not educate their leaders within their territory (despite having several educational institutions where they educate normal priests) like the OCA does. They understand that education (no matter how academic) not rooted in the traditional (hate) Orthodox setting is just knowledge that cannot help leaving the life of a priest or a bishop. Surprisingly, when these Cypriot bishops educated in Greece (or Greek bishops educated in Cyprus) go to Africa they perfectly deal with local customs, hundreds of liturgical languages and all that stuff.

One Kenyan priest I've had an opportunity to talk to (3rd generation Orthodox - he comes from one of the oldest Sub-Saharan Orthodox families BTW) complained a bit that there are two competing fractions in the Alexandrian Synod: Greeks and Cypriots*. Yet when asked about his own Cypriot Metropolitan Makarios (or the Cypriot Patriarch Peter VII who encouraged him to go to the seminary) he could not praise them highly enough. He also admitted that despite the 80-90-year presence of the Orthodoxy in Kenya, they have not managed to spiritually root it in the society.

After a few minutes of pondering, we can recall that there are some canons that forbade ordaining new converts. When we look into the history, we can also see that for the first 50-300 years after Christianising some area bishops were of foreign origin (or, at least of foreign education) from the traditional (hate) Orthodox countries. Only after some time local men educated in local institutions started to be ordained. Maybe medieval people were not idiots after all? Maybe they understood well-grounded but left alone men won't try to adjust the reality to their expectations and they allow the native faithful to live their way while controlling the situation while also having some experience in dealing with problems?

I purposely do not mention the need of administrative unity (or at least partial consolidation) because IMHO it's obvious.

I'm sorry, master orthonorm I've failed you, but there are not easy solutions. We also should remember two things: the Church as a living divine-human organism will always suffer from man-made problems that will have to be dealt with. Secondly: our Internet waffle can improve our mood but we achieve nothing only with words.

*I hope no one reports him to his bishop.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 07:46:39 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #514 on: October 10, 2012, 09:45:54 PM »

This thread is what keeps many of us going...it was getting mired down in the 'gossipy' side of internet discussion (and admit it all of you - no matter how we may hold our noses in feigned disgust we do love to get down and dirty in the much from time to time......) and out of nowhere a serious, thought provoking discussion came to the forefront.

This is a great example of one of my pet pedagogical peeves - opinion does lead to ideas which may lead to solutions - provided that the opinions are grounded in fact but not solidified by the same or totally lacking in any real foundation. The entirety of our church's organization experience over the centuries going back even to the Apostolic or ante-Nicean eras has been played out against this seeming conflict and understanding the roles of the hierarchy/clergy and the laity and the various levels within each.... The United States is unique (along with Canada) to recent Church history because the North American continent is the place where all of the historic and venerable Churches of the East have found their people and their descendants in one political entity and as a distinct minority therein.
So I guess we are a 'petri' dish testing out the future of Orthodox organizational dynamics and like any experimental setting there will be ups and downs along the road.....
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« Reply #515 on: October 10, 2012, 10:27:09 PM »

Quote
I have quoted only those statements of yours where it would near impossible for a regular person to know. I think that you must be a highly placed priest, influential lay person or Metroplitan Jonah himself to have this much intimate and detailed knowledge, and hold such catergorical opinions based on the published record.
 The published record is what it is. Such opinions as I have are rooted in that and informed by conversations such as those on this forum. I don't have anything I consider special knowledge…just what is generally known and published. I also have some friendships in ROCOR and occasionally they tell me their perceptions of what is going on in the OCA…and it's not all milk tea and cookies with respect to Metropolitan Jonah….but with respect to him, nothing scandalous, nothing vitriolic. This provides me a little outside perspective to weigh in the processing of the situation and the development of my opinions.

As for me actually being Metropolitan Jonah…you must be speaking tongue in cheek…I've only ever been mistaken for Haley Barbour at a Hardies some years back. Indeed I think that this whole assertion was not meant seriously and perhaps not kindly.

Quote
You know Seraphim, your writing is quite irenic and you write exceedingly well.


Thank you. I suppose we are fortunate this is not a forum requiring great mathematical skills…your opinion might not be so high of me then.

Quote
Its is also possible for a person to think that the Holy Synod's action was not based on a particular canon or that any acton against +Jonah should have been through a spiritual court.

Yes. It is indeed possible to do so.

Quote
I do not think that the published record would support the statements that I quoted.

This is where we differ, because I do think the there is enough in the public record to support every statement I made that you quoted.

  • Is it true or false that the allegations/explanation given for the synod (either less or greater) demanding Metropolitan Jonah's resignation has been shown to be false in every substantive particular?  
    • Is it not true that the young woman whose supposed near rape got all this started has publicly disavowed any such behavior actually took place? Is it not true that these allegations were couched in such a way that when made public it was of a nature damaging to Metropolitan's character and reputation?
    • Is it true or not that the Holy Synod does not let Metropolitan Jonah serve and receive communion in the OCA in but one parish? If so, is there a sound canonical reason for this. Is there some evil he has done so as to be publicly humiliated/chastized in this way?
    • Is he free to speak his mind without fear of economic reprisal against himself and his family? If so what is your evidence of this?
    • Is it true or not true the Holy Synod and Syossett are doing credentials checks and banning the participation of anyone who they find to be in question of their decisions or in support of Metropolitan Jonah? Have they banned well known and respected Orthodox scholars who do not take their part in participating at Parma? Yes or no?

All these things are public knowledge….and from these things logical inferences may be made.  If any of these points are not supported in the public record…please enlighten me. I will be happy to revise my opinions in the presence of better knowledge.

Quote
Which leads me to suspect that you protest too much when you claim not to know much. What is the term for one who comes to the herd as a meek and mild sheep?

Look who is making judgements now…or at least insinuating them.  As for me protesting too much…perhaps you are merely projecting.  And I think you have done so dangerously. Consider once you cautioned me about risking fighting against Christ and His Church by sowing discord. I took that to heart, thought on it, prayed on it, and then acted on it…publicly. So allow me to remind you of your own council in the light of what you just wrote.

1. You all but said I was a wolf out to prey on the flock.  

2. Given that you earlier wondered if indeed I might even be Metropolitan Jonah…then that means in your last line you are publicly calling Metropolitan Jonah a wolf out to prey on the flock…if not actually using the term wolf, but certainly leaving that impression. So tell me how this is somehow better than questioning the wisdom of a decision of the Holy Synod, or better than hoping the Holy Synod restores Metropolitan Jonah to the primacy or to the throne of the Diocese of the South?  Which opinion seems to be the more charitable in your view?

You are quick to scold me because I think Metropolitan Jonah was wronged by his brother bishops and that I would like to see them make that wrong right one way or the other.  I think they erred, but I've never questioned their authority, nor called them wolves.  Yet you…here in this very post forged a chain of insinuation that leaves the definite impression you consider His Beatitude to be a wolf amongst the flock though he has done nothing but remain silent before his accusers. Who here is sowing discord and risks making war on Christ and His Church?
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« Reply #516 on: October 10, 2012, 10:47:26 PM »

He used bullet points.

BULLET POINTS.

[/thread]
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« Reply #517 on: October 11, 2012, 10:30:44 AM »

He used bullet points.

BULLET POINTS.

[/thread]
LOL that was the most fantabulous post......

Quote
Seraphim98
I gotta say, although I, nor many other folks, do not know the whole story, what has gotten out makes the Holy Synod look really bad.

PP
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« Reply #518 on: October 11, 2012, 10:37:02 AM »

He used bullet points.

BULLET POINTS.

[/thread]
LOL that was the most fantabulous post......

Quote
Seraphim98
I gotta say, although I, nor many other folks, do not know the whole story, what has gotten out makes the Holy Synod look really bad.

PP

Again from the outside looking in, the Metropolitan doomed himself starting with his immature attack on the Ecumenical Patriarchate which was taken by all not within the OCA and in the USA who were under the EP's jurisdiction as a profound insult and an unexpected shot across the bow. (I would note that it was taken that way within the higher circles of the OCA as well and was recognized as a sign of trouble to come.) It was contrary to twenty years of cooperation and slow progress to developing a solution to our American jurisdictional stew. Things went downhill from there and the administrative mess with the Dionysians was the icing on the cake.

Get over this and move on or else we will all be wallowing in the muck for another twenty years.
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« Reply #519 on: October 11, 2012, 11:35:31 AM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
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« Reply #520 on: October 11, 2012, 11:41:18 AM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.
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« Reply #521 on: October 11, 2012, 12:17:14 PM »

Quote from: podkarpatska link=topic=45716.msg819187#msg819187 [/quote
I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position?

IMHO, this is it in a nutshell.

And admittedly I don't spend a lot of time reading about the whole thing, but I haven't seen anything approaching truth - just a lot of conflicting charges, countercharges, gossip, innuendo, and opinions.
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« Reply #522 on: October 11, 2012, 12:33:02 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.

Do you really see the Metropolitan as being completely unfit for any sort of episcopal role, though? Ecclesiastical politics aside ("toxicity"), it seems to me that most of the problem wasn't with the Metropolitan as a bishop, but as someone who was elevated to the top position far too quickly- which in and of itself might not have been a problem, save that he was seen as a "reform" hierarch and caught between two factions that had a very different idea of what reforms the OCA needs. I don't think the Metropolitan is unfit as a "bishop" and would have probably made a very good Metropolitan had he had a decade or so of overseeing the affairs of a diocese and sitting on the Synod as opposed to having gone straight to overseeing the administration of an entire jurisdiction and being given the "driver's seat" of a Synod on a road-trip that cannot agree if they're going to Disneyland or to see the Grand Canyon. As it is, he went straight from being the abbot of a monastery to the Metropolitan of the OCA and tried to administrate the OCA as if it were a monastery.

I think retiring to become the bishop of a single diocese is exactly what the Metropolitan needs- historical precedent for such a move being found no further than the life of St Gregory of Nazianzus (not to equate the Metropolitan with the great theologian as a person, merely in situation)- and if the OCA does not wish to have him but someone else does, by all means release him. To not do so would merely seem petty- a sort of scorched earth approach to what was the Synod's mistake (to reiterate, the mistake being elevating someone to the position of Metropolitan who had no prior episcopal experience) to begin with.
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« Reply #523 on: October 11, 2012, 12:40:22 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.

Metropolitan Jonah's letter stipulates to flaws as Primate, not in his standing as a bishop.

I personally interpreted his admissions in the letter as being relative to the present situation in the OCA, that is, that he felt he did not have the necessary personal traits to continue what he was doing.  

I will say I have no reservations whatsoever about Metropolitan Jonah's integrity or capabilities as a person, as a bishop, or as Primate of an autocephalous Orthodox Church.  His tragic flaw has always been a certain naivete, which I think has been sandpapered down substantially by his experiences as Metropolitan.

I think Metropolitan Jonah would make a fine addition to the Synod of ROCOR, and pray daily that the OCA will grant him a canonical release.  

Please pray for Metropolitan Jonah and the Paffhausen family, as this experience has been devastating for all of them.
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« Reply #524 on: October 11, 2012, 02:50:03 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.

Do you really see the Metropolitan as being completely unfit for any sort of episcopal role, though? Ecclesiastical politics aside ("toxicity"), it seems to me that most of the problem wasn't with the Metropolitan as a bishop, but as someone who was elevated to the top position far too quickly- which in and of itself might not have been a problem, save that he was seen as a "reform" hierarch and caught between two factions that had a very different idea of what reforms the OCA needs. I don't think the Metropolitan is unfit as a "bishop" and would have probably made a very good Metropolitan had he had a decade or so of overseeing the affairs of a diocese and sitting on the Synod as opposed to having gone straight to overseeing the administration of an entire jurisdiction and being given the "driver's seat" of a Synod on a road-trip that cannot agree if they're going to Disneyland or to see the Grand Canyon. As it is, he went straight from being the abbot of a monastery to the Metropolitan of the OCA and tried to administrate the OCA as if it were a monastery.

I think retiring to become the bishop of a single diocese is exactly what the Metropolitan needs- historical precedent for such a move being found no further than the life of St Gregory of Nazianzus (not to equate the Metropolitan with the great theologian as a person, merely in situation)- and if the OCA does not wish to have him but someone else does, by all means release him. To not do so would merely seem petty- a sort of scorched earth approach to what was the Synod's mistake (to reiterate, the mistake being elevating someone to the position of Metropolitan who had no prior episcopal experience) to begin with.

Why do you think that a failed Metropolitan bishop can be a successful diocesan bishop? Sure, it is possible for this to happen, but it is nor probable. Reflect back to what he said in Seattle: (paraphrasing) I found that I did not get along with anybody that I worked with. Or, not one person with whom I worked with in the Chancery, Metropolitan Council or the Holy Synod appreciated me. Regardless of how one states it, the objective fact was "Metropolitan Jonah versus everybody else." Now, it is possible that +Jonah was in the right and everybody else in the wrong. Improbable but not impossible.

However, when you reflect on his resignation letter, he said "I had come to the realization long ago that that I have neither the personality nor the temperament for the position of Primate, a position I never sought nor desired." This statement sheds light on his Seattle statement, which was "These last three years have been the three most difficult years of my life. I have been under a relentless barrage of criticism for most of this time for every forum I am meant to oversee: the chancery officers and staff, the Metropolitan Council and most troubling to me, the Holy Synod of Bishops." I submit to you that if one is not capable of functioning as a Metropolitan bishop, you might as well look for another vocation than a bishop of any kind.
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« Reply #525 on: October 11, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.
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« Reply #526 on: October 11, 2012, 03:06:37 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.

I agree. His Eminence Jonah might find it more fulfilling doing something else in the Church other than being a ruling hierarch..
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« Reply #527 on: October 11, 2012, 03:09:19 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.

OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat.

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« Reply #528 on: October 11, 2012, 03:19:00 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.

Do you really see the Metropolitan as being completely unfit for any sort of episcopal role, though? Ecclesiastical politics aside ("toxicity"), it seems to me that most of the problem wasn't with the Metropolitan as a bishop, but as someone who was elevated to the top position far too quickly- which in and of itself might not have been a problem, save that he was seen as a "reform" hierarch and caught between two factions that had a very different idea of what reforms the OCA needs. I don't think the Metropolitan is unfit as a "bishop" and would have probably made a very good Metropolitan had he had a decade or so of overseeing the affairs of a diocese and sitting on the Synod as opposed to having gone straight to overseeing the administration of an entire jurisdiction and being given the "driver's seat" of a Synod on a road-trip that cannot agree if they're going to Disneyland or to see the Grand Canyon. As it is, he went straight from being the abbot of a monastery to the Metropolitan of the OCA and tried to administrate the OCA as if it were a monastery.

I think retiring to become the bishop of a single diocese is exactly what the Metropolitan needs- historical precedent for such a move being found no further than the life of St Gregory of Nazianzus (not to equate the Metropolitan with the great theologian as a person, merely in situation)- and if the OCA does not wish to have him but someone else does, by all means release him. To not do so would merely seem petty- a sort of scorched earth approach to what was the Synod's mistake (to reiterate, the mistake being elevating someone to the position of Metropolitan who had no prior episcopal experience) to begin with.

Why do you think that a failed Metropolitan bishop can be a successful diocesan bishop? Sure, it is possible for this to happen, but it is nor probable. Reflect back to what he said in Seattle: (paraphrasing) I found that I did not get along with anybody that I worked with. Or, not one person with whom I worked with in the Chancery, Metropolitan Council or the Holy Synod appreciated me. Regardless of how one states it, the objective fact was "Metropolitan Jonah versus everybody else." Now, it is possible that +Jonah was in the right and everybody else in the wrong. Improbable but not impossible.

However, when you reflect on his resignation letter, he said "I had come to the realization long ago that that I have neither the personality nor the temperament for the position of Primate, a position I never sought nor desired." This statement sheds light on his Seattle statement, which was "These last three years have been the three most difficult years of my life. I have been under a relentless barrage of criticism for most of this time for every forum I am meant to oversee: the chancery officers and staff, the Metropolitan Council and most troubling to me, the Holy Synod of Bishops." I submit to you that if one is not capable of functioning as a Metropolitan bishop, you might as well look for another vocation than a bishop of any kind.

Really? Let's say, for example, that I started up a small software company, successfully led it for a while and it then comes to the attention of a much larger, multi-national software company. The company buys mine out, and in return I am allowed to continue leading the smaller company and given a spot on the board of directors. Up to this point there had been some internal turmoil in the leadership of this company- a previous CEO dismissed for embezzlement, and the current CEO headed for the same place. As the only member of the executive board not caught up in the corporate culture that had led to this point, I am then elected by the board and investors to the position of CEO. Despite my previous administrative experience, nothing in my career has yet prepared me for the juggling of several different national concerns, the politics of several different departments each with their own goals, the "old guard" on the board that wishes things to continue as they had been, and just the general chaos of running a large corporation. After several years, several battles, much scheming and various factions trying to use me toward their own ends, I decide that the job of CEO of this insane asylum is not for me and decide to resign from that position, stating my preference to return to where I had been.

By your logic, I have proven that by not being an able CEO of a conglomerate, I am also not fitted to any lesser executive officer position whatsoever- even that of leading the software company I had myself built and having a vote on the board of this larger company. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

I really don't get either side in this debate. The pro-Metropolitan crowd needs to realize that the Metropolitan just was not suited for the big chair. The anti-Metropolitan crowd needs to stop acting like +JONAH committed some horrible crime that makes him unsuited for anything. The guy had personality issues with several groups of people that do not seem to be the most agreeable people to begin with- add in the vastly different understandings that the OCA seems to have as to what a Primate should be, and it does not seem to me like a job ANYONE would be suited for. He didn't touch children in their no-no place, he didn't invent some new heresy, and he has not called for schism (indeed, it seems like his only crime post-resignation has not been saying anything to anyone- not that I ever remember any statement from +JONAH posted directly from himself online, everything has been reported or vetted through some third party).
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« Reply #529 on: October 11, 2012, 03:41:58 PM »

As for me actually being Metropolitan Jonah…you must be speaking tongue in cheek…I've only ever been mistaken for Haley Barbour at a Hardies some years back. Indeed I think that this whole assertion was not meant seriously and perhaps not kindly.
I meant to say that your assertions could only come from +Jonah himself or folks who are privy to his opinions. I must also confess that I was trying to flush you out, to find who exactly you are.

Quote
I do think the there is enough in the public record to support every statement I made that you quoted.
It depends on what you think the public record is. If anything that one encounters is made part of the "public record," it becomes nothing of the sort. To be part of the record, a statement must be from the horse's mouth and verifiable. Opinions from iconographers, husbands of choir directors, bloggers, and folks hiding behind Internet names cannot by definition put anything into the record. The public record that I am talking about are news releases on the official OCA Internet site, transcripts of statements made by church officials, letters by such, etc.. Everything else may be informative but is not dispositive.
 
Quote
Is it true or false that the allegations/explanation given for the synod (either less or greater) demanding Metropolitan Jonah's resignation has been shown to be false in every substantive particular?

This is absolutely false.

Quote
Is it not true that the young woman whose supposed near rape got all this started has publicly disavowed any such behavior actually took place? Is it not true that these allegations were couched in such a way that when made public it was of a nature damaging to Metropolitan's character and reputation?
The problem was never that the allegations were true or withdrawn. The issue always was how +Jonah handled the allegations. He did not handle them in accordance with his own policy, let alone plain common sense. I have no idea, and I submit to you that you do not KNOW either, how and why the allegations were written the way they were. Is it at all possible that the allegations would damage +Jonah no matter how they were written?

Quote
Is it true or not that the Holy Synod does not let Metropolitan Jonah serve and receive communion in the OCA in but one parish? If so, is there a sound canonical reason for this. Is there some evil he has done so as to be publicly humiliated/chastized in this way?
It is so reported on the Internet. I do not know and I do not think that you would KNOW either. Do you believe everything that you read on Monomakhos? Second, +Jonah is between assignments as it were; he is not a ruling bishop nor an auxiliary bishop, but he is a cleric who like all clerics must be under a bishop; and, if his bishop restricts him to St Mark's in Bethesda only, that could be considered humiliating but I cannot figure out which canon would prohibit that. 

Quote
Is he free to speak his mind without fear of economic reprisal against himself and his family? If so what is your evidence of this?

If he stuck to his consecration oath, he would speak his mind no matter the consequences. And, since he is a monk, what possible economic "reprisal" are you talking about? Are you saying that he had no clue what becoming a monk meant, to include the eventual aging and associated health and economic issues that would affect his family?  It is one think to appeal for charity, it is another to demand a golden parachute (read his letter of resignation again!)

Quote
Is it true or not true the Holy Synod and Syossett are doing credentials checks and banning the participation of anyone who they find to be in question of their decisions or in support of Metropolitan Jonah? Have they banned well known and respected Orthodox scholars who do not take their part in participating at Parma? Yes or no?

First, I hope that credentials checks are done as always. As for banning anyone, I am aware that Bishop Alexander did not approve Dr. Kalvesmaki as an alternate delegate from St. Nicholas. This is supported by the RECORD (remember public allegations are not entered into the record). I am not aware of any other instance. You know Seraphim, if you are not a wolf in sheep's clothing (and I do not think that you are--my insinuation was a cautionary one), you should strive to be much more factual and present us with evidence for your allegations. Take your last question; how in the world could I or anyone else know that "well known and respected Orthodox scholars" are being banned from Parma? Tell me names and show me evidence! As it is, it is yet another allegation masquerading as fact.

Once again: gossip does not equal fact; opinion does not equal fact; and nothing on the Internet is of equal value.


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« Reply #530 on: October 11, 2012, 03:48:22 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.

OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat.



But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR.
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« Reply #531 on: October 11, 2012, 03:49:49 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.

I agree. His Eminence Jonah might find it more fulfilling doing something else in the Church other than being a ruling hierarch..

I think that he could be a good professor or an evangelist if he chose not to go back into a monastery.
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« Reply #532 on: October 11, 2012, 03:54:53 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.

Do you really see the Metropolitan as being completely unfit for any sort of episcopal role, though? Ecclesiastical politics aside ("toxicity"), it seems to me that most of the problem wasn't with the Metropolitan as a bishop, but as someone who was elevated to the top position far too quickly- which in and of itself might not have been a problem, save that he was seen as a "reform" hierarch and caught between two factions that had a very different idea of what reforms the OCA needs. I don't think the Metropolitan is unfit as a "bishop" and would have probably made a very good Metropolitan had he had a decade or so of overseeing the affairs of a diocese and sitting on the Synod as opposed to having gone straight to overseeing the administration of an entire jurisdiction and being given the "driver's seat" of a Synod on a road-trip that cannot agree if they're going to Disneyland or to see the Grand Canyon. As it is, he went straight from being the abbot of a monastery to the Metropolitan of the OCA and tried to administrate the OCA as if it were a monastery.

I think retiring to become the bishop of a single diocese is exactly what the Metropolitan needs- historical precedent for such a move being found no further than the life of St Gregory of Nazianzus (not to equate the Metropolitan with the great theologian as a person, merely in situation)- and if the OCA does not wish to have him but someone else does, by all means release him. To not do so would merely seem petty- a sort of scorched earth approach to what was the Synod's mistake (to reiterate, the mistake being elevating someone to the position of Metropolitan who had no prior episcopal experience) to begin with.

Why do you think that a failed Metropolitan bishop can be a successful diocesan bishop? Sure, it is possible for this to happen, but it is nor probable. Reflect back to what he said in Seattle: (paraphrasing) I found that I did not get along with anybody that I worked with. Or, not one person with whom I worked with in the Chancery, Metropolitan Council or the Holy Synod appreciated me. Regardless of how one states it, the objective fact was "Metropolitan Jonah versus everybody else." Now, it is possible that +Jonah was in the right and everybody else in the wrong. Improbable but not impossible.

However, when you reflect on his resignation letter, he said "I had come to the realization long ago that that I have neither the personality nor the temperament for the position of Primate, a position I never sought nor desired." This statement sheds light on his Seattle statement, which was "These last three years have been the three most difficult years of my life. I have been under a relentless barrage of criticism for most of this time for every forum I am meant to oversee: the chancery officers and staff, the Metropolitan Council and most troubling to me, the Holy Synod of Bishops." I submit to you that if one is not capable of functioning as a Metropolitan bishop, you might as well look for another vocation than a bishop of any kind.

Really? Let's say, for example, that I started up a small software company, successfully led it for a while and it then comes to the attention of a much larger, multi-national software company. The company buys mine out, and in return I am allowed to continue leading the smaller company and given a spot on the board of directors. Up to this point there had been some internal turmoil in the leadership of this company- a previous CEO dismissed for embezzlement, and the current CEO headed for the same place. As the only member of the executive board not caught up in the corporate culture that had led to this point, I am then elected by the board and investors to the position of CEO. Despite my previous administrative experience, nothing in my career has yet prepared me for the juggling of several different national concerns, the politics of several different departments each with their own goals, the "old guard" on the board that wishes things to continue as they had been, and just the general chaos of running a large corporation. After several years, several battles, much scheming and various factions trying to use me toward their own ends, I decide that the job of CEO of this insane asylum is not for me and decide to resign from that position, stating my preference to return to where I had been.

By your logic, I have proven that by not being an able CEO of a conglomerate, I am also not fitted to any lesser executive officer position whatsoever- even that of leading the software company I had myself built and having a vote on the board of this larger company. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

I really don't get either side in this debate. The pro-Metropolitan crowd needs to realize that the Metropolitan just was not suited for the big chair. The anti-Metropolitan crowd needs to stop acting like +JONAH committed some horrible crime that makes him unsuited for anything. The guy had personality issues with several groups of people that do not seem to be the most agreeable people to begin with- add in the vastly different understandings that the OCA seems to have as to what a Primate should be, and it does not seem to me like a job ANYONE would be suited for. He didn't touch children in their no-no place, he didn't invent some new heresy, and he has not called for schism (indeed, it seems like his only crime post-resignation has not been saying anything to anyone- not that I ever remember any statement from +JONAH posted directly from himself online, everything has been reported or vetted through some third party).

Some good points. Have you considered that, unlike you software company president, +Jonah cited personality issues (temperament and personality), not inexperience or not enough knowledge or expertise?
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« Reply #533 on: October 11, 2012, 03:57:14 PM »

ISTM that overcoming personality issues with several groups of people, especially if they are not the most agreeable people to begin with is pretty much expected of anyone who works with other people, and it is especially critical for someone who aspires to lead that same group.
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« Reply #534 on: October 11, 2012, 04:02:23 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.

Do you really see the Metropolitan as being completely unfit for any sort of episcopal role, though? Ecclesiastical politics aside ("toxicity"), it seems to me that most of the problem wasn't with the Metropolitan as a bishop, but as someone who was elevated to the top position far too quickly- which in and of itself might not have been a problem, save that he was seen as a "reform" hierarch and caught between two factions that had a very different idea of what reforms the OCA needs. I don't think the Metropolitan is unfit as a "bishop" and would have probably made a very good Metropolitan had he had a decade or so of overseeing the affairs of a diocese and sitting on the Synod as opposed to having gone straight to overseeing the administration of an entire jurisdiction and being given the "driver's seat" of a Synod on a road-trip that cannot agree if they're going to Disneyland or to see the Grand Canyon. As it is, he went straight from being the abbot of a monastery to the Metropolitan of the OCA and tried to administrate the OCA as if it were a monastery.

I think retiring to become the bishop of a single diocese is exactly what the Metropolitan needs- historical precedent for such a move being found no further than the life of St Gregory of Nazianzus (not to equate the Metropolitan with the great theologian as a person, merely in situation)- and if the OCA does not wish to have him but someone else does, by all means release him. To not do so would merely seem petty- a sort of scorched earth approach to what was the Synod's mistake (to reiterate, the mistake being elevating someone to the position of Metropolitan who had no prior episcopal experience) to begin with.

Why do you think that a failed Metropolitan bishop can be a successful diocesan bishop? Sure, it is possible for this to happen, but it is nor probable. Reflect back to what he said in Seattle: (paraphrasing) I found that I did not get along with anybody that I worked with. Or, not one person with whom I worked with in the Chancery, Metropolitan Council or the Holy Synod appreciated me. Regardless of how one states it, the objective fact was "Metropolitan Jonah versus everybody else." Now, it is possible that +Jonah was in the right and everybody else in the wrong. Improbable but not impossible.

However, when you reflect on his resignation letter, he said "I had come to the realization long ago that that I have neither the personality nor the temperament for the position of Primate, a position I never sought nor desired." This statement sheds light on his Seattle statement, which was "These last three years have been the three most difficult years of my life. I have been under a relentless barrage of criticism for most of this time for every forum I am meant to oversee: the chancery officers and staff, the Metropolitan Council and most troubling to me, the Holy Synod of Bishops." I submit to you that if one is not capable of functioning as a Metropolitan bishop, you might as well look for another vocation than a bishop of any kind.

Really? Let's say, for example, that I started up a small software company, successfully led it for a while and it then comes to the attention of a much larger, multi-national software company. The company buys mine out, and in return I am allowed to continue leading the smaller company and given a spot on the board of directors. Up to this point there had been some internal turmoil in the leadership of this company- a previous CEO dismissed for embezzlement, and the current CEO headed for the same place. As the only member of the executive board not caught up in the corporate culture that had led to this point, I am then elected by the board and investors to the position of CEO. Despite my previous administrative experience, nothing in my career has yet prepared me for the juggling of several different national concerns, the politics of several different departments each with their own goals, the "old guard" on the board that wishes things to continue as they had been, and just the general chaos of running a large corporation. After several years, several battles, much scheming and various factions trying to use me toward their own ends, I decide that the job of CEO of this insane asylum is not for me and decide to resign from that position, stating my preference to return to where I had been.

By your logic, I have proven that by not being an able CEO of a conglomerate, I am also not fitted to any lesser executive officer position whatsoever- even that of leading the software company I had myself built and having a vote on the board of this larger company. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

I really don't get either side in this debate. The pro-Metropolitan crowd needs to realize that the Metropolitan just was not suited for the big chair. The anti-Metropolitan crowd needs to stop acting like +JONAH committed some horrible crime that makes him unsuited for anything. The guy had personality issues with several groups of people that do not seem to be the most agreeable people to begin with- add in the vastly different understandings that the OCA seems to have as to what a Primate should be, and it does not seem to me like a job ANYONE would be suited for. He didn't touch children in their no-no place, he didn't invent some new heresy, and he has not called for schism (indeed, it seems like his only crime post-resignation has not been saying anything to anyone- not that I ever remember any statement from +JONAH posted directly from himself online, everything has been reported or vetted through some third party).

Some good points. Have you considered that, unlike you software company president, +Jonah cited personality issues (temperament and personality), not inexperience or not enough knowledge or expertise?

I'm still trying to figure out if that's Primate speak for "Sorry, baby. It's not you, it's me."  laugh
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« Reply #535 on: October 11, 2012, 04:23:38 PM »

If there is no intention to give Metropolitan Jonah a diocese within the OCA it seems the reasonable and charitable thing to do is allow him canonical release if another jurisdiction expresses an interest in having him.  The most natural fit, I would think would be either the MP or ROCOR.

That said, their reluctance is understandable to a degree given the strong feelings generated in many quarters at his "encouraged" resignation. If another jurisdiction took him and put him anywhere near the OCA's diocese of the South and maybe the Diocese of the West or Midwest…there might be a fear/suspicion that a significant block of parishes…either as parishes or as masses of individuals in concert might ask to be received under his omiphorion.  I do not know for certain, but I believe this action is permitted to parishes as part of how the OCA was constituted.  But permitted or not, the powers that be may not be willing to test this potentiality.

And while I can understand why many would feel justified in making such a move it is not one without a certain degree of ecclesiological peril. Even if all that is believed in this situation with respect to the Metropolitan being wronged turns out to be true…we are not protestants…or shouldn't be. It is right that a just man wrongfully treated be vindicated. It is more questionable to build a whole cause centered on that person. Let us say a big portion of a diocese does follow Jonah to ROCOR or elsewhere if he is given canonical release…regardless of how good a bishop he may turn out to be, and like our beloved Archbishop Dimitri of blessed memory…he won't live forever. What happens if the next guy on the throne in that diocese in ROCOR or wherever turns out to be a jerk, a source of scandal, a drunkard, and fornicator, but the guy in the OCA in the overlapping diocese happens to be a really godly and charismatic bishop. Does this group now decide to head back to the OCA to be with the "good" bishop? That should not be.  

If I am not mistaken it is permissible to flee a bishop if he denies the faith or preaches some open heresy and refuses to repent when corrected. It is permissible to find another bishop when one's own bishop dies and there's no one to take his place.  Short of that, bishop following, is dangerous territory in my opinion. It sets a humanly understandable, but theologically questionable precedent…which in a given set of circumstances might be allowable as an economy. But there is such a thing as economy creep…until the "economy" has become typica. That way there be dragons.  Better not to evoke economy unless there is no other good option.  

Indeed, the only way I see that it would be right for parishes…or even dioceses to follow Metropolitan Jonah into another jurisdiction would be if the OCA basically imploded as an ecclessial institution/Orthodox communion…if it either fell apart or the rest of Orthodoxy considered things bad enough that they broke communion and ceased recognizing the OCA as an Orthodox jurisdiction, or if its bishops began to persistently teach open heresy and refuse correction. Only then.

The Church has had good bishops driven out by bad before. It's had tyrants and incompetents on it's thrones before…but so long as they do not teach heresy we are not free to throw them over "vox poppuli" style for others we like better. The Church will endure, better shepherds can be found by God's mercy either through the repentance of bad ones or the appearance of new and better ones when there is a vacancy. Our bishops must know our hearts…must hear our concerns, but our task first and foremost is to pray for them. There is no Holy Eucharist and no Church without them. Even the best of them has an incredible array of troubles aligned against them…which makes it that much more difficult for those less able in their service as bishops.

So, as I've stated I would like to see Metropolitan restored to the throne…and clean house a little. Short of that I would like to see him given a new diocese, preferably the DoS.  

Perhaps a workable solution for all concerned would be for the Holy Synod to admit an error in asking him to resign and restore him to the primacy. Once restored, he could clean house of bad actors and bad institutional powers/practices within the OCA. Give him a year, maybe two.  Then he resigns to take up one of the vacant dioceses and the Holy Synod of which he is a member selects a new metropolitan.  That way…those who believe Metropolitan Jonah were wrong are satisfied. Bad actors in the current situation are removed from power and our institutions reformed to make future abuses less likely. That should make everyone happy except for the bad actors and their supporters. And with Metropolitan Jonah returning to the duties of a normal diocesan bishop should make those happy who thought him if nothing else a poor, impolitic, and at times naive administrator.  

Then after 15 or 20 years as a diocesan bishop…the issue of a more permanent white hat could be revisited when a vacancy occurs at the helm.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 04:28:17 PM by Seraphim98 » Logged
Shanghaiski
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« Reply #536 on: October 11, 2012, 04:57:13 PM »

Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #537 on: October 11, 2012, 04:57:49 PM »

Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.

Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 04:58:24 PM by Shanghaiski » Logged

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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #538 on: October 11, 2012, 05:23:14 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.

OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat.



But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR.


The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group.
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« Reply #539 on: October 11, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »

Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.

Marc--What three Russian jurisdictions are you referring to? But,to answer your question, what ROCOR decides to do is her business. I will confine my opinion to the OCA: releasing +Jonah to any other jurisdiction would be exporting a problem and should be considered an unfriendly gesture by the recipient.

OCA, Rocor and Moscow Pat.



But why have three separate Russian jurisdictions in North America? Sure that was the case for a long time, but I thought that after 1970 there were only two from Moscow's perspective: Her representational churches and those of ROCOR.


The reality is that two are old calendar and have a different ethos than the third. Fill in the blanks yourself. But I am with you. There should be a way to have just one group.
The ROC evangelized North America and had set up actual diocesan level infrastructure before things got messed up with the Bolshevik Revolution, the end of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting world-wide chaos. The point is that the ROC has already decided to leave the field in North America by giving autocephaly to one of the three jurisdictions--the OCA. The OCA is no longer a Russian jurisdiction--that is true on many levels. But, it is closer to its heritage than the other (non-Russian) jurisdictions. Indeed, it is closer to the spirit and ethos of Saint Tikhon and fellow reformers than any other "Russian" jurisdiction in the world.
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