Topic: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation

[Maria]

I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.

You probably did not have to sing next to a PAID PROFESSIONAL non-Orthodox choir member who would crack jokes during the Gospel, solemn time of communion, etc. These people should not be allowed to sing in a choir, but AB Benjamin allows this.

[katherineofdixie]

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

But it does concern them just the way the troubles among the Antiochians a couple of years back with the troubles surrounding on again off again status of their bishops. That is to say we are all Orthodox, yet in the present reality of differing jurisdictions on the same continent there is cover to speak more freely without risk of reprisal. Back then OCA priests said things Antiochian priests did not feel safe saying. Perhaps something of a similar nature here.

The outspoken Antiochian Priests are not in an OCA parish. They do not see the liturgical abuses going on with "Handmaidens" who serve along with the altar servers (cutting the Holy Bread and distributing the wine and antidoron). Neither do they see what the persons in the pews observe. Yes, those of us in the OCA have serious problems with dwindling numbers and few catechumens.

Not all the OCA. For example, I have never seen any of the liturgical abuses listed. Also not all parishes have dwindling numbers and few catechumens, especially in my diocese, it's quite the reverse.  Though it may be more demographic than anything.

[podkarpatska]

I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.

You probably did not have to sing next to a PAID PROFESSIONAL non-Orthodox choir member who would crack jokes during the Gospel, solemn time of communion, etc. These people should not be allowed to sing in a choir, but AB Benjamin allows this.

A greater use of congregational chant and the reduction of the use of 'concert' pieces and concert choirs would solve that issue!

[Maria]

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

But it does concern them just the way the troubles among the Antiochians a couple of years back with the troubles surrounding on again off again status of their bishops. That is to say we are all Orthodox, yet in the present reality of differing jurisdictions on the same continent there is cover to speak more freely without risk of reprisal. Back then OCA priests said things Antiochian priests did not feel safe saying. Perhaps something of a similar nature here.

The outspoken Antiochian Priests are not in an OCA parish. They do not see the liturgical abuses going on with "Handmaidens" who serve along with the altar servers (cutting the Holy Bread and distributing the wine and antidoron). Neither do they see what the persons in the pews observe. Yes, those of us in the OCA have serious problems with dwindling numbers and few catechumens.

Not all the OCA. For example, I have never seen any of the liturgical abuses listed. Also not all parishes have dwindling numbers and few catechumens, especially in my diocese, it's quite the reverse.  Though it may be more demographic than anything.

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.

Trust me, if AB Benjamin receives the white thingy, it will be the darkest night for the OCA.
Parishes are suffering here in the West.

Whenever AB Benjamin does an infrequent pastoral visit and addresses a "homily" to the parishioners, he addresses the handful of teens, jokes with them, and offers nothing spiritually substantial. It made me cry.

[katherineofdixie]

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.

Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either!

[PrincessMommy]

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.

Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either!

I don't know about that but everything that Maria describes happens at my parish.  I didn't realize that these practices weren't the "norm" until a couple of years ago since it's all I've known.   I'm not in the south either. 

[Maria]

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.

Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either!

I don't know about that but everything that Maria describes happens at my parish.  I didn't realize that these practices weren't the "norm" until a couple of years ago since it's all I've known.   I'm not in the south either. 

In your OCA parish, are pregnant-out-of-wedlock ladies penanced from one to three years, while the actively openly homosexual couples are allowed to continue receiving communion?

I mean our priest told us that he must guard the chalice and only admit the repentant and those who have recently confessed, but the actively and openly gay and lesbian couples can approach holding hands.

Again, why does Bishop Benjamin allow this travesty? It gives the impression that a woman should secretly abort. Is Holy Communion real? What is going on here?

[PrincessMommy]

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.

Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either!

I don't know about that but everything that Maria describes happens at my parish.  I didn't realize that these practices weren't the "norm" until a couple of years ago since it's all I've known.   I'm not in the south either. 

In your OCA parish, are pregnant-out-of-wedlock ladies penanced from one to three years, while the actively openly homosexual couples are allowed to continue receiving communion?

I mean our priest told us that he must guard the chalice and only admit the repentant and those who have recently confessed, but the actively and openly gay and lesbian couples can approach holding hands.

Again, why does Bishop Benjamin allow this travesty? It gives the impression that a woman should secretly abort. Is Holy Communion real? What is going on here?

no, those two things have not happened here.   As far as I know.  Certainly no couples (heterosex. or homosex.) have approached the chalice holding hands.  It's a problem at our Cathedral though, from what I hear from many friends who have left.

I agree, many things surrounding Bishop Benjamin confound me.   I guess because he didn't kill anyone while driving DUI he was permitted to remain a bishop... I dunno how that works.   I'd be surprised if he became the next Metropolitan though.  Seriously, way too much baggage. 

[FatherGiryus]

Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

Thank you Father G. for your corrective. I am glad that you did it because I may not have been as diplomatic as you. Some of you may know that I am a PK (priest's son) and thus I have seen and heard many things that the usual lay person is not exposed to. My point is that it is far too easy to misunderstand or misinterpret something that one sees or hears of.

For example, there was a report on Monomakhos last year or so about girls serving in the Altar. You can imagine how that brought out all the super defenders of Orthodoxy to the fore, who were positively foaming at the mouth about such an innovation. It turned out that these girls did not serve in the Altar at all; they were seated on the front left pew and joined the great procession bearing candles and went back to their pew after the Entrance, having never been in the Altar. In my church, we have "handmaidens" who serve the zakuska, the blessed bread and wine to help consume the Gifts that had just been received from the priest or deacon. The handmaidens also have a part during the Holy Friday services, when welcoming a hierarch, etc... Nothing innovative or strange about it.

Another thing that some folks get super excited about perceived actions or non-actions by their bishop (particularly the latter). They simply do not have the whole picture: a bishop's action may not be visible because, as it is usually the case, it is private matter between him and his deputy, the local priest. The bishop's action may have been communicated to the Parish Council and not sent out as an encyclical (do we really need to have one of these for every thing of personal interest to us?). The bishop may be coordinating his response with the Holy Synod, etc.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.

You probably did not have to sing next to a PAID PROFESSIONAL non-Orthodox choir member who would crack jokes during the Gospel, solemn time of communion, etc. These people should not be allowed to sing in a choir, but AB Benjamin allows this.

A greater use of congregational chant and the reduction of the use of 'concert' pieces and concert choirs would solve that issue!

Amen! OTH, when the congregation is small and cannot carry a tune, the powers that be at some churches, particularly cathedral churches, are sometimes tempted to use heterodox professional singers. I remember that is exactly what happened at our Cathedral Church of St. Stephen in Constantinople; we just did not have enough tenors so our director hired an opera singer, who was a heterodox person.

[Maria]

Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

I would rather have no choir with only one or two chanters than these sacrilegious jokes.

Bishop Benjamin knows that these things are occurring. People have complained to him, but the choir director is his friend.

[mike]

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

[Maria]

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

Ooops. Freudian slip.

These professional singers were awesome stand-up comedians. I would laugh at their horrible jokes and then try to repent in preparation for Holy Communion. I finally had to stop attending that church. It was not good for my salvation.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.

I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".    This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?

I agree with most of what is said in this post, but I disagree with the allegation of the intentions of posting the "Fevronia Letter."  It is information relative to the issue.  The fact that the entire Holy Synod unanimously acted to force the "First Among Them" to resign, indicates an apparently necessary action, however, documentation that has surfaced since, including the Holy Synod's explanation, do not support the forced resignation in my opinion.  Therefore, additional documentation assists in an understanding of what happened, if for no other reason than to possibly assist in avoiding the election of a failing primate, in any church, in the future.  I remain compelled to accept the Synod's action, but do not see the justification for it as yet.  In the end, the "Fevronia Letter" offers nothing to enable a better understanding, unfortunately.

Regarding the bolded text above, I think one of the problems is that folks are looking at the Holy Canons that have been produced in ecumenical or pan-Orthodox councils. However, it is the prerogative of any local church to develop its own canons (rules) and, in OCA's case she decided in Council to adopt its own statutes. The OCA can also develop various policies that are not mere suggestions but binding on all. The policy that is most germane, the Policy on Sexual Misconduct, is such a policy that was proclaimed to the world by +Jonah himself.

That said, it is obvious to me that a case may be made that +Jonah has violated either OCA Statute or policies, and/or Apostolic Canon 34. The fact remains that the Holy Synod has not formally and publicly charged him with violating Canon 34, and I have no idea if this is because they do not agree with my conclusion or because they do not want to pursue that route. Incidentally, I base my conclusion strictly on official documents and statements by the Holy Synod and by +Jonah himself.

The most salient evidence that we have are +Jonah's statement at the Seattle AAC and his resignation letter. Allegations are made that he did not write the statement or that he had been forced to sign the letter (or even that Father Jillions lied to him when he said the entire Synod requested his resignation). All the foregoing are excuses that may be understandable if they come from a toddler but they belittle +Jonah the man. I have no idea why his "supporters" are pushing these allegations because all they are doing is further diminish his reputation.

[Maria]

With the exception of Bishop Michael, all the other bishops apparently have baggage.

I just do not trust the OCA Synod any longer. With the history of deposing, retiring, or forcing an existing Metropolitan into oblivion and then not allowing them to commune in any parish save one (excommunication), what is to prevent Bishop Michael if he should receive the white thingy from being forced out too. There is a pattern of forced retirements.

Frankly, I wish the entire OCA Synod would disband. Enough is enough.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

I am one who said that I would pursue this "information" with an unknown Internet character whose argument is declarative and not persuasive. I see that every day at Monomakhos, where I used to be a regular contributor until George (its moderator) and many of its contributors went over the edge to become conspiracy-loving, agenda-driven, bishop-hating and disrespecting fanatics who have been also beating the drums of schism.

The facts are available to anyone who has eyes to hear and ears to hear. The resignation of Metropolitan Jonah is a denouement that is kind to him and his legacy.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

With the exception of Bishop Michael, all the other bishops apparently have baggage.

I just do not trust the OCA Synod any longer. With the history of deposing, retiring, or forcing an existing Metropolitan into oblivion and then not allowing them to commune in any parish save one (excommunication), what is to prevent Bishop Michael if he should receive the white thingy from being forced out too. There is a pattern of forced retirements.

Frankly, I wish the entire OCA Synod would disband. Enough is enough.

I am sorry that you feel this way for it looks like you will be hunting for "greener pastures," if you have not done so already. Allow me please to remark that I pray that at some point in the future, when passions have cooled down, you will regret having painted with a broad condemnatory brush all of our bishops except for one. As for your final wish, I think it is very unseemly and simply wrong. Lord have mercy!

[Maria]

I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

I am one who said that I would pursue this exposition with an unknown Internet character whose argument is declarative and not persuasive. I see that every day at Monomakhos, where I used to be a regular contributor until George (its moderator) and many of its contributors went over the edge to become conspiracy-loving, agenda-driven, bishop-hating and disrespecting fanatics who have been also beating the drums of schism.

The facts are available to anyone who has eyes to hear and ears to hear. The resignation of Metropolitan Jonah is a denouement that is kind to him and his legacy.

Excommunication is not kind. Met. Jonah cannot even attend the nearest OCA church where he lives but must travel all the way to St. Mark's, which is the only parish where he may serve and receive Holy Communion. Usually he goes to ROCOR churches, which is only spawning rumors that he wants to transfer to the ROCOR. Perhaps Met. Jonah would rather not attend the Cathedral with its openly gay policies in contradiction to church teaching on homosexuality.

[Iconodule]

Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

[Maria]

Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC, which is the same jurisdiction that Father Anastasios Hudson, our webmaster belongs to. In fact, he introduced me to his jurisdiction.

http://www.hotca.org/

I still have friends in the OCA. It is so difficult to hear about all the turmoil in the OCA Synod, then we are told to stick our heads in the sand and pray. Well, it is hard to do so with jokes flying around during communion. We were being assaulted from all sides. The devil was having a heyday.

[mike]

So why do you "care" about the OCA? You are not even in communion with them.

[Iconodule]

Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

[PrincessMommy]

Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

[Iconodule]

Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

[Maria]

So why do you "care" about the OCA? You are not even in communion with them.

I care because most of my friends are still in the OCA.
My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.
Several may now join me in the GOC.

[mike]

My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.

But you left it.

Several may now join me in the GOC.

Shouldn't you be happy about that?

[Maria]

Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

[mike]

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

Our forum is popular. Great!

[Maria]

My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.

But you left it.

Several may now join me in the GOC.

Shouldn't you be happy about that?

No, not really.

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

[mike]

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

[Maria]

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

I do not wish that on my friends who are also struggling. However, I must give them this caveat:
Do not run away from the OCA trying to find greener pastures as you will never find paradise except in the next life.

IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.

If, however, they are just saddened with the forced resignations of three past Metropolitans, and do not want any more politics, then perhaps they should continue to obey their priests who urge them to be blindly obedient to the OCA Synod and keep their eyes focused on their own sins.

Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

[Iconodule]

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.

If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

[Maria]

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.

If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.

[Elisha]

Trust me, if AB Benjamin receives the white thingy, it will be the darkest night for the OCA.
Parishes are suffering here in the West.

Whenever AB Benjamin does an infrequent pastoral visit and addresses a "homily" to the parishioners, he addresses the handful of teens, jokes with them, and offers nothing spiritually substantial. It made me cry.

Maria, my priest (in the Diocese of the West) has stated that +BENJAMIN will not accept any nomination to be Metropolitan.  I'm perturbed by the seeming "tolerance" of alleged bad situations at the monastery in Manton and these other issues with homosexual parishoners in certain parishes.  Except for these areas of concern, I think he is a great bishop.  I'm sorry if you have not had good experiences with him.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

So why do you "care" about the OCA? You are not even in communion with them.

I care because most of my friends are still in the OCA.
My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.
Several may now join me in the GOC.

Please be careful as you are getting close to violating this rule:

"* No Proselytism -- Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is not allowed.  We don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message."

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator

[pensateomnia]

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.

If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.

Perhaps Fr Anastasios can clarify -- I would be very interested in him doing so -- but I believe he would agree that the GOC is in schism from "World Orthodoxy" (or, perhaps, that "World Orthodoxy" is in schism from it). The point being, there is most definitely schism. In fact, that's kind of THE point.

[Maria]

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.

If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.

Perhaps Fr Anastasios can clarify -- I would be very interested in him doing so -- but I believe he would agree that the GOC is in schism from "World Orthodoxy" (or, perhaps, that "World Orthodoxy" is in schism from it). The point being, there is most definitely schism. In fact, that's kind of THE point.

Your post seems to bait and proselytize too. In addition, by inferring that I am a schismatic, you are getting very close to violating Father Anastasios Hudson's Administrative Directive that we are not to refer to each other using the term, "schismatic."

You probably know full well that I cannot respond to your bait due to the post by Second Chance. I quote him below.

Please be careful as you are getting close to violating this rule:

"* No Proselytism -- Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is not allowed.  We don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message."

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator

[FatherGiryus]

So, what's the bigger problem: them acting according to who they are, or you being uncomfortable with who your are?

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

Ooops. Freudian slip.

These professional singers were awesome stand-up comedians. I would laugh at their horrible jokes and then try to repent in preparation for Holy Communion. I finally had to stop attending that church. It was not good for my salvation.

[pensateomnia]

No, I am interested in what the GOC teaches. I haven't read anything from it lately, so I am curious about its current teaching and relations to other Synods. Schism is a break in communion. So, obviously there is a schism, unless communion has been restored.

[Maria]

So, what's the bigger problem: them acting according to who they are, or you being uncomfortable with who your are?

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

Ooops. Freudian slip.

These professional singers were awesome stand-up comedians. I would laugh at their horrible jokes and then try to repent in preparation for Holy Communion. I finally had to stop attending that church. It was not good for my salvation.

A wicked imagination plays tricks.

I am very happy to be: loved by God and saved by Him.
I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
 

[PrincessMommy]

what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

I think that the jurisdictional affiliation of posters in this thread is germane to the OP and the discussion.

[Maria]

what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.

Thanks, I have been under personal attack. What else is new?

Anyway, I just found this excerpt from a monomakhos post. The rest of that post has been edited out as it would upset most in this thread. http://www.monomakhos.com/and-now-for-a-word-from-one-of-the-dc-nuns/#comment-33938

Metropolitan Jonah – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish except St. Mark’s in Bethesda.
Metropolitan Herman – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish except Holy Resurrection Cathedral in WB.
Metropolitan Theodosius – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish except St. John’s in Canonsburg, PA.
Bishop Nikolai – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish in the Diocese of the West and in the OCA.

Why would the OCA Synod take such extreme measures that makes receiving communion so difficult for these OCA hierarchs (two of whom are elderly). Hasn't Met Jonah suffered enough already with the apparent defamation of his good character without adding EXCOMMUNICATION to the list?  

[Schultz]

what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.

Thanks, I have been under personal attack. What else is new?

We reap what we sow.  You have personally attacked Orthodox bishops.