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Author Topic: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation  (Read 37414 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2012, 08:35:46 PM »

I think there's been a confusion of Metropolitans Hilarion (Kapral) of New York and the ROCOR and Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk, head of external affairs for the Moscow Patriarchate...

Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

Are we talking about the same guy? He officially lives in Australia and spends most of his time in New York, Met of Rocor.
[/quote]

Yes, Met of Rocor... We have a Russian Tradition Bishop right here in the USA, not that he wants the job of heading the OCA, but there is precedent for it.
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« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2012, 09:42:25 PM »

No edit.

I would like to say I have been following alot of blogs on this, from Episcopalians, to Baptists, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans.

They dont denounce the Holy Synod (well...except for one....no not mono...its an Anglican blog) but they say how much he'll be missed and how great a voice he was for American Orthodoxy. His Eminence is loved by alot of folks.

I hope he does get an episcopal assignment because he seemed to be a true asset to our faith.

I am surprised that Stokoe hasnt said too much (except for some Chicago Tribune piece or something)

PP

Good grief!  Baptists are talking about this?  I had no idea he was even their radar.
I imagine his signing the Manhatten Declaration put both him and American Orthodoxy on a very large range radar.
Sorry to see him go. I am.
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« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2012, 09:59:45 PM »

What precedent? Even when the Russian Orthodox Metropolia/OCA was part of the ROCOR the local ROCOR hierarchs in North America were submitted to the Metropolia's head and not the other way around...

I think there's been a confusion of Metropolitans Hilarion (Kapral) of New York and the ROCOR and Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk, head of external affairs for the Moscow Patriarchate...

Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

Are we talking about the same guy? He officially lives in Australia and spends most of his time in New York, Met of Rocor.

Yes, Met of Rocor... We have a Russian Tradition Bishop right here in the USA, not that he wants the job of heading the OCA, but there is precedent for it.
[/quote]
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« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2012, 11:22:55 PM »

I hadn't seen anyone post it so I'll post it if it's already here I apologize

The Holy Synods letter on Metropolitan Jonah's resignation

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf
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« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2012, 11:52:10 PM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html
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« Reply #185 on: July 18, 2012, 12:06:08 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?
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« Reply #186 on: July 18, 2012, 12:11:36 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.
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« Reply #187 on: July 18, 2012, 12:12:27 AM »

Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

Quote
I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

I think you two are talking about two different Hilarions:

Met. Hilarion of ROCOR and Met. Hilarion Alfeyev.  



I was speaking of Metropolitan Hilarion Alfayev, of the Moscow Patriarcate external relations department.
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« Reply #188 on: July 18, 2012, 12:14:00 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.
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« Reply #189 on: July 18, 2012, 12:15:01 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
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« Reply #190 on: July 18, 2012, 12:21:23 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism. This reads like something from a personal blog, especially with the number of errors of fact. Even the Post and the News in NY, rags though they be, would have taken care to note the it is Rev. Eric Tosi; and that the rape has not been proven.
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« Reply #191 on: July 18, 2012, 12:25:56 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism. This reads like something from a personal blog, especially with the number of errors of fact. Even the Post and the News in NY, rags though they be, would have taken care to note the it is Rev. Eric Tosi; and that the rape has not been proven.
For those who choose not to read the article, Fr. Eric Tosi (as opposed to Fr. Erik Possi) is named as the synod spokesman, NOT as the alleged rapist priest. Cool
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« Reply #192 on: July 18, 2012, 12:35:31 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism. This reads like something from a personal blog, especially with the number of errors of fact. Even the Post and the News in NY, rags though they be, would have taken care to note the it is Rev. Eric Tosi; and that the rape has not been proven.

Yeah, see my bolded portion.

You need to stick the few decent American papers and a handful of foreign papers anymore to get decent writing and journalism.
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« Reply #193 on: July 18, 2012, 12:45:25 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

I think they copy-pasted a lot from Wikipedia as well. Some of that stuff looks like it came directly off the article about the financial scandal and the OCA.
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« Reply #194 on: July 18, 2012, 08:07:06 AM »

Quote
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism
Unfortunately, most "news stories" nowadays are done by bloggers during their lunch hour at their real job.

Quote
Good grief!  Baptists are talking about this?  I had no idea he was even their radar
+Jonah reached out to alot of different folks of many stripes.

PP
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« Reply #195 on: July 18, 2012, 09:17:57 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?
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« Reply #196 on: July 18, 2012, 09:24:00 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?
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« Reply #197 on: July 18, 2012, 09:37:49 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?
You can say that after reading nothing more than the headline? Huh For starters, His Beatitude was not fired. (And if you're going to say, "fired, asked to resign, what's the difference?", you're going to have to define what gives you the license to go beyond the official record on this.)
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« Reply #198 on: July 18, 2012, 09:47:10 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.
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« Reply #199 on: July 18, 2012, 09:55:09 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.
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« Reply #200 on: July 18, 2012, 10:05:21 AM »

Quote
stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing)
It is the same thing. Forcing someone to quit is essentially firing them. You just blackmail them saying, "Do it our way, or we will embarass you".

Quote
I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.
Daddy's gotta make money so baby can eat.

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« Reply #201 on: July 18, 2012, 10:07:17 AM »




Quote

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

I don't think the synod meant the offer of a leave of absence to be anything but what it was. I believe it was an attempt to help a brother bishop. These men are not gangsters. Those whom I know are loving, deeply spiritual people.

The NY tabloids are famous for in-your-face headlines. The difference between rapist and alleged rapist is still worth preserving, as most legal departments would advise.

We are off topic. My apologies. No more from me on the subject of crappy journalism.
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« Reply #202 on: July 18, 2012, 10:38:51 AM »




Quote

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

I don't think the synod meant the offer of a leave of absence to be anything but what it was. I believe it was an attempt to help a brother bishop. These men are not gangsters. Those whom I know are loving, deeply spiritual people.

The NY tabloids are famous for in-your-face headlines. The difference between rapist and alleged rapist is still worth preserving, as most legal departments would advise.

We are off topic. My apologies. No more from me on the subject of crappy journalism.

Absolutely agreed on this!
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« Reply #203 on: July 18, 2012, 10:52:54 AM »




Quote

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

I don't think the synod meant the offer of a leave of absence to be anything but what it was. I believe it was an attempt to help a brother bishop. These men are not gangsters. Those whom I know are loving, deeply spiritual people.

The NY tabloids are famous for in-your-face headlines. The difference between rapist and alleged rapist is still worth preserving, as most legal departments would advise.

We are off topic. My apologies. No more from me on the subject of crappy journalism.

Well, maybe one more. This is what a paper like the Post might write for a hed: "Church Boss Resigns in Sex Priest Cover-Up"
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« Reply #204 on: July 18, 2012, 10:55:06 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.
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« Reply #205 on: July 18, 2012, 11:01:59 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.

If you say "Quits" instead, it's about the same length. It'd fit.
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« Reply #206 on: July 18, 2012, 11:10:49 AM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.

And I say bollocks to that.  A good writer can be truthful and provocative at the same time. 
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« Reply #207 on: July 18, 2012, 12:30:30 PM »

Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.

And I say bollocks to that.  A good writer can be truthful and provocative at the same time. 

And it borders on libel in this case. Given the nature of the situation and the problems of the RCC and the recent Penn State debacle, I doubt anyone would think of filing suit over it.
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« Reply #208 on: July 18, 2012, 12:31:24 PM »

I'm wondering if the alleged rape will always stay that way.  I know at Monomokos is making a lot out of the fact that the police never pressed charges.... but if the victim recants then how can the police proceed?  If the alleged victim was coerced into silence then there may not be much the authorities can do....this is very shameful.  The 2nd crime is worse than the 1st.  
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« Reply #209 on: July 18, 2012, 01:15:39 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.
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« Reply #210 on: July 18, 2012, 02:57:10 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.
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« Reply #211 on: July 18, 2012, 03:23:00 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

So much for protecting the victim.   Sad
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« Reply #212 on: July 18, 2012, 03:24:22 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 03:25:35 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #213 on: July 18, 2012, 03:28:48 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.



Perhaps it would be best to start another thread as this is going off topic rather quickly.
I will just make one comment: different hospitals have varying procedures.
I have been mistreated and humiliated at some of our local hospitals.
There are "rape" drugs that are commonly administered in non-Catholic hospitals that cause abortions.
Unfortunately, there are some "Catholic" institutions that are not known for being very "Catholic" and were reported by the media as not following the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #214 on: July 18, 2012, 03:32:03 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.



Perhaps it would be best to start another thread as this is going off topic rather quickly.
I will just make one comment: different hospitals have varying procedures.
There are "rape" drugs that are commonly administered in non-Catholic hospitals that cause abortions.

Then you start that thread, but you are doing a disservice to women by making such outlandish allegations which perpetuate the worse sort of rumor mongering which keep women at risk from getting the treatment they need.

And you HAVE ZERO idea of what you are talking about when it comes to "rape drugs".
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« Reply #215 on: July 18, 2012, 03:43:55 PM »

I have an undergraduate degree in health sciences.

And yes, there are the so-called "rape drugs" that are administered to prevent conception and/or cause an abortion.

You start the thread. This is my last post on this subject here.

Back on topic.

This alleged rape victim and her alleged attacker may never get justice, if such a rape happened.

How long did the OCA Synod hold onto this information before taking action?

Why are they reluctant to release the name of the alleged rapist priest, but were so willing to release the dirt on Met. Jonah? If this priest is no longer incarcerated, he could molest someone else.

Instead of releasing that three page letter, the Synod could have released a very succinct statement such as:

Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest.

LESS IS BEST.
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« Reply #216 on: July 18, 2012, 03:48:34 PM »

The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.



What he said...and I add that my wife and sister are both rape survivors and both have said repeatedly that what you see on TV and in the movies is nothing like what happens in an ER/UC facility.

And that nothing a doctor or nurse will/can do to is can be any more humiliating than being actually raped.  Terrifying, yes, but that has more to do with the fear mongering and judgment from the rest of society than with anything a health professional would do, especially in this day and age. 
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« Reply #217 on: July 18, 2012, 03:49:19 PM »

I have an undergraduate degree in health sciences.

And yes, there are the so-called "rape drugs" that are administered to prevent conception and/or cause an abortion.

You start the thread. This is my last post on this subject here.

Back on topic.

This alleged rape victim and her alleged attacker may never get justice, if such a rape happened.

How long did the OCA Synod hold onto this information before taking action?

Why are they reluctant to release the name of the alleged rapist priest, but were so willing to release the dirt on Met. Jonah? If this priest is no longer incarcerated, he could molest someone else.

Instead of releasing that three page letter, the Synod could have released a very succinct statement such as:

Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest.

LESS IS BEST.


Amen dico vobis.
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« Reply #218 on: July 18, 2012, 04:23:34 PM »

As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. Cheesy

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  Wink

   
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« Reply #219 on: July 18, 2012, 04:36:04 PM »

As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. Cheesy

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  Wink   
1. Why submit a post together with an apology for submitting the post, all within the same post? If you really meant to submit the post, then don't apologize for it. If you're sorry for posting this material as you type it, then don't post it.
2. You are engaging in slander and calumny against the Synod of Bishops of the OCA. You do so by accusing them of making false accusations against His Beatitude in some clandestine effort to cover up the real matter. You do so also be engaging in this idiotic, half-baked rumor mongering and speculation. Now you better stop before the condemnation you pronounce against the Synod comes back to fall on your own head.
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« Reply #220 on: July 18, 2012, 08:50:38 PM »

As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. Cheesy

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  Wink   
1. Why submit a post together with an apology for submitting the post, all within the same post? If you really meant to submit the post, then don't apologize for it. If you're sorry for posting this material as you type it, then don't post it.
2. You are engaging in slander and calumny against the Synod of Bishops of the OCA. You do so by accusing them of making false accusations against His Beatitude in some clandestine effort to cover up the real matter. You do so also be engaging in this idiotic, half-baked rumor mongering and speculation. Now you better stop before the condemnation you pronounce against the Synod comes back to fall on your own head.

I'm not engaging in slander and calumny, because I said it might be true and it might not be true, but there are rumors out there and I think they should be addressed.   It goes against my nature to accept the conclusion of a few bishops towards another bishop.  My conscience doesn't allow it.   I believe in openess.

Look, don't get me wrong.   I merely said that without sufficient proof I don't like to condemn anyone.  Anyway  I don't involve myself in matters that concern the Church, except for the spiritual matters since a Churches only purpose is in  facilitating people towards achieving unity with the Divine.   As for apologizing, I did so because I knew  many would be offended by my opinion...as you were.   Sorry 'bout that. Smiley
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #221 on: July 19, 2012, 12:14:16 AM »

As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. Cheesy

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  Wink   
1. Why submit a post together with an apology for submitting the post, all within the same post? If you really meant to submit the post, then don't apologize for it. If you're sorry for posting this material as you type it, then don't post it.
2. You are engaging in slander and calumny against the Synod of Bishops of the OCA. You do so by accusing them of making false accusations against His Beatitude in some clandestine effort to cover up the real matter. You do so also be engaging in this idiotic, half-baked rumor mongering and speculation. Now you better stop before the condemnation you pronounce against the Synod comes back to fall on your own head.

I'm not engaging in slander and calumny, because I said it might be true and it might not be true, but there are rumors out there and I think they should be addressed.   It goes against my nature to accept the conclusion of a few bishops towards another bishop.  My conscience doesn't allow it.   I believe in openess.

Look, don't get me wrong.   I merely said that without sufficient proof I don't like to condemn anyone.  Anyway  I don't involve myself in matters that concern the Church, except for the spiritual matters since a Churches only purpose is in  facilitating people towards achieving unity with the Divine.   As for apologizing, I did so because I knew  many would be offended by my opinion...as you were.   Sorry 'bout that. Smiley

Until you recant what you said in the following post, I have no reason to take you seriously when you say you're not engaging in slander and calumny against the Holy Synod of the OCA:
I'm going to assume the 'rationale' behind the destruction of the Metropolitan's reputation is that they are doing it for the good of the Church and that  the end justifies the means.   It's the concept of 'economia' going haywire.   Well I have news for anyone who thinks this way, the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't work through sin...so no matter how one looks at it, to slander and calumniate another person is  a sin. Angry
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #222 on: July 19, 2012, 03:21:23 AM »

^ I think it may be instructive for me to share where I'm coming from on this so you and everyone else here can understand why I bristle at such conduct as you have shown, Zenovia. On the one hand, I have a lot of love and respect for His Beatitude, the former Metropolitan Jonah, and I will fight just as hard as you to defend him against false witness. On the other hand, I have just as much love and respect for my own diocesan bishop, Archbishop Benjamin of San Francisco, and for the Synod on which he sits. As such, I will fight with equal diligence to protect his good name against false witness.

I don't know all the details of what's going on in Syosset between Metropolitan Jonah and the rest of the Synod. I'm not privileged to know. I don't need to know. I don't want to know. I simply don't see how knowledge of every lurid detail is good for my salvation, so I'm not even going to ask. In the end, I choose to trust that God will guide all parties involved and that the truth will win out and make itself heard as much as we the faithful can bear it. In the mean time, I see it as my duty to combat the rumor mongering, gossip, undue speculation, slander and libel flying around against both sides of this mess. Though I disagree with the one-sidedness of your rhetoric, you are right to say that slander and calumny against a bishop of the Church (or against a synod of bishops) is a sin. I just want to be fair and balanced in calling it out in both directions.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:22:38 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Hermogenes
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« Reply #223 on: July 19, 2012, 07:30:20 AM »

^ I think it may be instructive for me to share where I'm coming from on this so you and everyone else here can understand why I bristle at such conduct as you have shown, Zenovia. On the one hand, I have a lot of love and respect for His Beatitude, the former Metropolitan Jonah, and I will fight just as hard as you to defend him against false witness. On the other hand, I have just as much love and respect for my own diocesan bishop, Archbishop Benjamin of San Francisco, and for the Synod on which he sits. As such, I will fight with equal diligence to protect his good name against false witness.

I don't know all the details of what's going on in Syosset between Metropolitan Jonah and the rest of the Synod. I'm not privileged to know. I don't need to know. I don't want to know. I simply don't see how knowledge of every lurid detail is good for my salvation, so I'm not even going to ask. In the end, I choose to trust that God will guide all parties involved and that the truth will win out and make itself heard as much as we the faithful can bear it. In the mean time, I see it as my duty to combat the rumor mongering, gossip, undue speculation, slander and libel flying around against both sides of this mess. Though I disagree with the one-sidedness of your rhetoric, you are right to say that slander and calumny against a bishop of the Church (or against a synod of bishops) is a sin. I just want to be fair and balanced in calling it out in both directions.

Thanks for this. Like you, I have deep trust in our archpastor, HG Michael, of New York. I believe what he says and trust his judgment. I've never had any reason before now to doubt his words, not do I doubt him now. The other hierarchs are also men of deep integrity. They wouldn't take this step for any reason but the good of the church as it has been revealed to them.
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #224 on: July 19, 2012, 09:32:42 AM »

To those who are calling for "openness", it is not always appropriate, necessary or helpful to know all the details of what might be called a personnel matter. And if it involves confidential medical or personal information, or an alleged crime which is still being investigated or litigated, it may be actually illegal to share such information or details.

I have personally witnessed a Bishop being lambasted (in terms that I would not use to my worst enemy) for not sharing details about a priest - where he literally could not, morally or legally, give any information.

Conspiracy theories and rumors may be entertaining, but what real purpose do they serve and what do they have to do with the Faith?

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
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