Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation

[primuspilus]

Re. Reply No. 625

Yes, "podkarpatska," my thoughts exactly.

I agree. That would be perfect.

PP

[podkarpatska]

Re. Reply No. 625

Yes, "podkarpatska," my thoughts exactly.

I agree. That would be perfect.

PP

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

[Basil 320]

One thing the delegates to the forthcoming All-American Council should consider, or perhaps that wouldn't be the most appropriate form, but in order to correcting the abuses of the all powerful former Chancellor, RSK, the OCA has its primary church officers reporting to the Metropolitan.  That should be changed, essentially they report to no one.  The Chancellor's supervisory authority of the Central Church personnel, should be restored, of course he should report to the Metropolitan, on behalf of the Synod in that regard.  Also, the Metropolitan must reside in some close proximity to the Central Church Administration in Oyster Bay Cove.  He cannot effectively work with the Central Church Administration without being in the office regularly.  The past two primates have resided outside of the immediate area of the Central Church Administration, which has worked to the detriment of effective church administration; (understandably, the auxiliary bishop who is an assistant to the Metropolitan should continue to report the Metropolitan).  While I think the Metropolitan should maintain an office and a residence in Washington D.C. in conjunction with his episcopal responsibilities to the Diocese of Washington, it's a small enough diocese to allow him the time to fulfill his primatial responsibilities.

[ilyazhito]

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

[Schultz]

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

A point of quibble.

St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Glover Park.  As someone who used to live in both Tenleytown and Glover Park, the distinction is important.

thank you.

 

[podkarpatska]

Well, for the First Hierarch of ROCOR to leave his diocese and his position of First Hierarch and accept the nomination of the OCA would require a 'done deal' well in advance of any such scenario - one which church protocol (and I suspect canon law as well) would require the advance intervention of the Holy Synod of the OCA to initiate - and to also obtain the consent of the Church of Russia which has final authority over her self-ruling entities. The whole notion that this could happen presupposes that Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) would even want the position in the first place. And the idea that he would appoint Metropolitan Jonah as his 'auxiliary' and leave him and his supporters unsupervised in his backyard is hardly something which any new Metropolitan could unilaterally accomplish. After all, he is not supreme like the Pope in his domain. He would need the consensus of the other bishops to take such an action. Anyone laying odds on that happening? I think not.

Everyone who is posting here and on Monomakhos seems to ignore any non-monastic or non-episcopal candidates which I think is a mistake - if a man possessed of the proper pastoral credentials and a personality suited to calming chaos exists out there I would pray that he be given serious consideration. Look outside the box for goodness sake with proper vetting. While it is true that they looked outside of the OCA for  several of their last diocesan bishop  perhaps, those men, while good candidates in general or on paper, really didn't have a true understanding of the nature of the OCA.

 

[orthonorm]

Everyone who is posting here and on Monomakhos seems to ignore any non-monastic or non-episcopal candidates which I think is a mistake - if a man possessed of the proper pastoral credentials and a personality suited to calming chaos exists out there. They looked outside of the OCA for their last several diocesan bishops and perhaps, those men, while good candidates really didn't have a true understanding of the nature of the OCA.

Is this your round-a-bout manner of asking to be a candidate?

[podkarpatska]

Everyone who is posting here and on Monomakhos seems to ignore any non-monastic or non-episcopal candidates which I think is a mistake - if a man possessed of the proper pastoral credentials and a personality suited to calming chaos exists out there. They looked outside of the OCA for their last several diocesan bishops and perhaps, those men, while good candidates really didn't have a true understanding of the nature of the OCA.

Is this your round-a-bout manner of asking to be a candidate?

No - I am lacking in any number of qualifications including marital status, being non-clerical and not being of the OCA. I am simply suggesting to those online that across the spectrum of American Orthodoxy there are other examples to look to in how Bishops come to be and many folks, myself included,  who have been active laity in those jurisdictions and who have some semblance of understanding of how the Church functions and how canon law and practicality work should work together - not at opposites.

[ilyazhito]

I don't necessarily agree with Monomakhos, I am just saying that there are some strange opinions in the Orthodox net-sphere. The OCA's in a jam, but hopefully God will get us out of this jam.

[88Devin12]

I don't necessarily agree with Monomakhos, I am just saying that there are some strange opinions in the Orthodox net-sphere. The OCA's in a jam, but hopefully God will get us out of this jam.

I never look at it, but decided to the other day and saw that they are already calling this upcoming AAC a "Robber Council". We have some weird people in our church.

[orthonorm]

I don't necessarily agree with Monomakhos, I am just saying that there are some strange opinions in the Orthodox net-sphere. The OCA's in a jam, but hopefully God will get us out of this jam.

I never look at it, but decided to the other day and saw that they are already calling this upcoming AAC a "Robber Council". We have some weird people in our church.

3.5+k posts on this forum and you are just figuring this out now?

[Basil 320]

Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, Director of External Affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church, recently made public visits to GOAA Archbishop Demetrios of America, AOCANA Metropolitan Phillip. and ROCOR's offices, I'm not sure if he met with Metropolitan Hilarion.  The press releases indicate they discussed "Orthodoxy in America," among other routine topics.  Is there any indication he met with any OCA representative?  He must have discussed the current situation in the OCA, don't you think?

[88Devin12]

Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, Director of External Affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church, recently made public visits to GOAA Archbishop Demetrios of America, AOCANA Metropolitan Phillip. and ROCOR's offices, I'm not sure if he met with Metropolitan Hilarion.  The press releases indicate they discussed "Orthodoxy in America," among other routine topics.  Is there any indication he met with any OCA representative?  He must have discussed the current situation in the OCA, don't you think?

It wouldn't really matter much if he did. Moscow is hands-off when it comes to the OCA now, or at least they've said as much. If we are autocephalous they argue we should act like it and not run crying to our mommy every time we scrape our knee.

I can't really wait until the Pan-Orthodox Council and the completion of the work of the Assembly of Bishops, that way we can get rid of this jurisdictional mess and actually have a real unified church here.

As for the Monomakhos comparisons with a "robber council" and the upcoming AAC. I think they fail to realize how stupid they sound, and they really should pick up some history books on the Byzantine Empire and read about the robber councils. In most of the robber councils, the Orthodox parties were not involved or invited. The AAC is everyone on all sides in attendance with equal votes.

They have no real evidence that the Bishops are all corrupt power-hungry connivers. As for the election of the Metropolitan, I seriously doubt that the Bishops will try to repeat the election of Metropolitan's Herman & Theodosius where the synods at the time went against the popular vote.

If the people vote for a candidate, and the synod chooses a different Bishop, I fully expect the people to shout Anaxios. However, we have no evidence that they want to do so. Just because it has happened twice before doesn't mean it will happen again, but that also doesn't mean it won't.

The Bishops aren't stupid and they aren't evil. They fully realize the delicate situation they have. To pull another Metropolitan Herman type election would guarantee that a lot of parishes would leave the OCA and jump to the Antiochians or Greeks. It doesn't make any sense for them to try some ridiculous power-grab.

[Orual]

Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, Director of External Affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church, recently made public visits to GOAA Archbishop Demetrios of America, AOCANA Metropolitan Phillip. and ROCOR's offices, I'm not sure if he met with Metropolitan Hilarion.  The press releases indicate they discussed "Orthodoxy in America," among other routine topics.  Is there any indication he met with any OCA representative?  He must have discussed the current situation in the OCA, don't you think?

He met with Metropolitan Jonah.   Since the active OCA bishops have rejected him as a representative of the OCA, though, I guess he does not count.

[Basil 320]

Wow!  How interesting.

[Seraphim98]

I rather doubt cries of "anaxios" would change anything….other than perhaps scare the Holy Synod and Syosset aparatchiks even more. The "axios" comes after the election is made, not during or after.  At best it would be a public show of disapproval…but procedurally it would be meaningless. Of course if the public show is strong enough that might inspire an instant resignation rather than face the hornet's nest of disapproval from the faithful. But that is unlikely in my opinion.

With respect to Russians and the MP I'm not sure what to think at the moment but I'm coming to believe that those who think the MP has cut us loose and placed its bets elsewhere for an organ of Orthodox unity in the Americas may have a point…but I'm hoping instead they've taken a wait and see approach to evaluate the outcome of Parma before making any definitive commitments.

With respect to some persons on Monomakhos referring to the upcoming council as a Robber Council, while the emotions are understandable, the expression is overstated. It could prove to be a robber council, but it could also prove to be true one. It's not something we can know until afterwards, perhaps long afterwards. In the meantime it is counterproductive to attach such an appellation to the council…it is needlessly incendiary at this stage of affairs.  That said, while that is an unfortunate expression of sentiment, I don't think it tars the Monomakhos site as a whole. People say what they will say and comment as they feel inclined.  On the whole the discourse on Monomakhos is more tempered and reasoned though the tone of many is that of those who are just fed up with what they perceive to be an abuse of Christ's Church and it's offices.  There are voices that do speak to calm the raw feelings of those who feel the angriest and most bitter at the state of affairs in the OCA. The site tends to be socially, politically, and ecclesiastically conservative in its contributorship and they speak from that perspective.  But that is a permissible, if not largely desirable perspective in any case.

[Monk Vasyl]

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

[witega]

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

Is there a precedent for a bishop serving as presiding hierarch for two separate synods? I can't think of one, but in 2000 years of Church History, there's a precedent for almost everything.

It wouldn't necessarily be a case of the OCA coming under ROCOR, but could possibly be the first step in a merger--an idea desired and loved by some and despised and feared by others.

Ten years ago, plenty of people thought the Inferno would glaciate before ROCOR went back under the MP. I'm not saying I find the scenario at all likely, but stranger things have happened (especially when the Holy Spirit got involved).

[Fabio Leite]

If they are going for the concept that the Assembly of Bishops will be the synod of the unified church, neither OCA's nor ROCOR's synods are seen as regular canonical synods in the strict sense. They are provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times. From that perspective, it wouldn't be the union of two synods as it would be the case of someone presiding both Constantinople and Moscow at the same time, but the union of two once-good-but-now-quickly-reaching-their-final-years institutions.

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

Is there a precedent for a bishop serving as presiding hierarch for two separate synods? I can't think of one, but in 2000 years of Church History, there's a precedent for almost everything.

It wouldn't necessarily be a case of the OCA coming under ROCOR, but could possibly be the first step in a merger--an idea desired and loved by some and despised and feared by others.

Ten years ago, plenty of people thought the Inferno would glaciate before ROCOR went back under the MP. I'm not saying I find the scenario at all likely, but stranger things have happened (especially when the Holy Spirit got involved).

[88Devin12]

If they are going for the concept that the Assembly of Bishops will be the synod of the unified church, neither OCA's nor ROCOR's synods are seen as regular canonical synods in the strict sense. They are provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times. From that perspective, it wouldn't be the union of two synods as it would be the case of someone presiding both Constantinople and Moscow at the same time, but the union of two once-good-but-now-quickly-reaching-their-final-years institutions.

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

Is there a precedent for a bishop serving as presiding hierarch for two separate synods? I can't think of one, but in 2000 years of Church History, there's a precedent for almost everything.

It wouldn't necessarily be a case of the OCA coming under ROCOR, but could possibly be the first step in a merger--an idea desired and loved by some and despised and feared by others.

Ten years ago, plenty of people thought the Inferno would glaciate before ROCOR went back under the MP. I'm not saying I find the scenario at all likely, but stranger things have happened (especially when the Holy Spirit got involved).

Like I've said before, the Assembly of Bishops isn't a voluntary thing and it isn't a case of what could be. It's required. Union is going to be coming at some point, and it will have to be in a canonical arrangement.

They've already discussed the structure of the Church in preliminary terms, and two primary models came forward with other models talked about.

I'd recommend listening to these two interviews:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday/the_orthodox_churchtoday_and_tomorrow

http://www.myocn.net/index.php/201209194259/OCN-Now/Interview-with-His-Grace-Bishop-Basil.html

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, Director of External Affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church, recently made public visits to GOAA Archbishop Demetrios of America, AOCANA Metropolitan Phillip. and ROCOR's offices, I'm not sure if he met with Metropolitan Hilarion.  The press releases indicate they discussed "Orthodoxy in America," among other routine topics.  Is there any indication he met with any OCA representative?  He must have discussed the current situation in the OCA, don't you think?

He met with Metropolitan Jonah.   Since the active OCA bishops have rejected him as a representative of the OCA, though, I guess he does not count.

I have not seen mention of it on the DECR web site. Would you please tell us when they met and perhaps what was discussed? BTW, you have a strange way of characterizing the current situation; active bishops have rejected him as a representative of the OCA? What do you mean by the bolded part and why do you not refere instead to the fact that he has officially resigned? Thanks, Carl

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

Is there a precedent for a bishop serving as presiding hierarch for two separate synods? I can't think of one, but in 2000 years of Church History, there's a precedent for almost everything.

It wouldn't necessarily be a case of the OCA coming under ROCOR, but could possibly be the first step in a merger--an idea desired and loved by some and despised and feared by others.

Ten years ago, plenty of people thought the Inferno would glaciate before ROCOR went back under the MP. I'm not saying I find the scenario at all likely, but stranger things have happened (especially when the Holy Spirit got involved).

Since ROCOR is part of the ROC, any merger would in effect mean the OCA going under ROCOR/ROC with the annulment of the Tomos of autocephaly. Autocephaly is like marriage; unlike Roman Catholics, we do not annul them and pretend that they never happened. Another practical effect of such a move would be to alter the balance of power in North America, slightly less in favor of Constantinople.

I think that all of the canonical churches are stuck with the fact of the autocephaly of the OCA, which will persist until a truly united and autocephalous Orthodox Church OF America arises. The Orthodox Church IN America is the insurance policy for all current jurisdictions that we do not end up with an autonomous Church under a foreign patriarchate. In my mind, there are four possibilities: continuation of the status quo (certainly OCA), autonomous church under Moscow (no OCA), autonomous church under Constantinople (possibly OCA), or the Patriarchate of Washington (no OCA).

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

If they are going for the concept that the Assembly of Bishops will be the synod of the unified church, neither OCA's nor ROCOR's synods are seen as regular canonical synods in the strict sense. They are provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times. From that perspective, it wouldn't be the union of two synods as it would be the case of someone presiding both Constantinople and Moscow at the same time, but the union of two once-good-but-now-quickly-reaching-their-final-years institutions.

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

Is there a precedent for a bishop serving as presiding hierarch for two separate synods? I can't think of one, but in 2000 years of Church History, there's a precedent for almost everything.

It wouldn't necessarily be a case of the OCA coming under ROCOR, but could possibly be the first step in a merger--an idea desired and loved by some and despised and feared by others.

Ten years ago, plenty of people thought the Inferno would glaciate before ROCOR went back under the MP. I'm not saying I find the scenario at all likely, but stranger things have happened (especially when the Holy Spirit got involved).

In a profound sense, aren't all of the local church synods "provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times"?

[Seraphim98]

Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

According to Dante that happened sometime prior to the 13th century. You will note in the ninth circle of hell Satan is bound to his waist in ice and weeps and struggles in vain.  Just saying.

[Monk Vasyl]

Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

According to Dante that happened sometime prior to the 13th century. You will note in the ninth circle of hell Satan is bound to his waist in ice and weeps and struggles in vain.  Just saying.

That's an interesting thing to know.  I always liked that the Vikings see their hell as a frozen land, the opposite of most of us.  Both are not appealing to me.

[witega]

Since ROCOR is part of the ROC, any merger would in effect mean the OCA going under ROCOR/ROC with the annulment of the Tomos of autocephaly. Autocephaly is like marriage; unlike Roman Catholics, we do not annul them and pretend that they never happened.

I'm sure what you base that claim on. Certainly we don't 'pretend they never happened', but there is plenty of precedent for autocephaly being 'annulled' (technically, that should mean the autocephalous church choosing to give it up, though in practice it's occasionally been forced). At Nicea I most of the provinces of the Roman Empire were autocephalous synods, by Nicea II all but Cyprus had given up that autocephaly to be incorporated into one of the Pentarchy. Serbia, Bulgaria and Georgia are all autocephalous churches that lost autocephaly for awhile before seeing it re-established centuries later.

Whether or not the OCA *should* give up its autocephaly is a separate question from whether or not it can.

[Fabio Leite]

They sure are, only that coexisting synods in the same area are not in that profound depth of reality, so they are even more provisory, even in face of other temporal organizations.

I particularly would like to see the North-American unified synod working well and healthily. The US is still a country where what happens there tend to spread to the rest of the world and any succesful initiative there impacts the rest of the world. Whatever is done there, will set the reference on how to organize new jurisdictions for the next centuries probably, for better or worse.

If they are going for the concept that the Assembly of Bishops will be the synod of the unified church, neither OCA's nor ROCOR's synods are seen as regular canonical synods in the strict sense. They are provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times. From that perspective, it wouldn't be the union of two synods as it would be the case of someone presiding both Constantinople and Moscow at the same time, but the union of two once-good-but-now-quickly-reaching-their-final-years institutions.

Perhaps the OCA delegates on the 13th  should consider looking outside of the box towards an older man.

After all when our Archbishop was appointed it was a surprise as he was of retirement age at that point in time. There surely are older, widowed priests within the OCA who would have the PASTORAL  temperament AND EXPERIENCE within the OCA to enter the arena and provide an iconic example of a mature, solid person with inner toughness and a kind heart. I don't really know their clergy, but I am sure that sure men exist and looking outside of their current Synod but from WITHIN the OCA might be a way to start to heal their divisions.

This is what some are proposing. For instance, there is a group on Monomakhos.com that proposes to vote for Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), head of ROCOR, as the next OCA metropolitan. This may be ridiculous, but could be the best proposal, if Metropolitan Jonah cannot be restored. If so, then Metropolitan Hilarion will keep +Jonah as an auxiliary to supervise Washington,DC (Bishop of Tenleytown?). St. Nicholas Cathedral is in Tenleytown, so the designation will work.

The only way Metropolitan Hilarion could be the metropolitian for the OCA would be for the OCA to come under ROCOR.  Dante's Inferno would glaciate before that would happen.

Is there a precedent for a bishop serving as presiding hierarch for two separate synods? I can't think of one, but in 2000 years of Church History, there's a precedent for almost everything.

It wouldn't necessarily be a case of the OCA coming under ROCOR, but could possibly be the first step in a merger--an idea desired and loved by some and despised and feared by others.

Ten years ago, plenty of people thought the Inferno would glaciate before ROCOR went back under the MP. I'm not saying I find the scenario at all likely, but stranger things have happened (especially when the Holy Spirit got involved).

In a profound sense, aren't all of the local church synods "provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times"?

[ialmisry]

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Mind yours


Where did the Protestant Reformation start?

I've been there.  I could swear it was in Germany.

[ialmisry]

If they are going for the concept that the Assembly of Bishops will be the synod of the unified church, neither OCA's nor ROCOR's synods are seen as regular canonical synods in the strict sense. They are provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times.

Self-confessedly true of ROCOR, not true at all of the OCA.

From that perspective, it wouldn't be the union of two synods as it would be the case of someone presiding both Constantinople and Moscow at the same time, but the union of two once-good-but-now-quickly-reaching-their-final-years institutions.

Were that true of the OCA, the whole Episcopal Assembly scheme would be a waste of time.

[simplygermain]

If they are going for the concept that the Assembly of Bishops will be the synod of the unified church, neither OCA's nor ROCOR's synods are seen as regular canonical synods in the strict sense. They are provisory institutions created by the needs of specific historical times.

Self-confessedly true of ROCOR, not true at all of the OCA.

From that perspective, it wouldn't be the union of two synods as it would be the case of someone presiding both Constantinople and Moscow at the same time, but the union of two once-good-but-now-quickly-reaching-their-final-years institutions.

Were that true of the OCA, the whole Episcopal Assembly scheme would be a waste of time.

Totes! Er, I mean, Amen!

[Basil 320]

Large sign installed in front of the property of the Orthodox Christian Church of the Holy Trinity in Parma, Ohio:  
"ALL AMERICAN COUNCIL"
"HOLY TRINITY CHURCH"

An interesting historical note:  The 2nd and 4th All American Sobors were hosted by St. Theodosios Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio.  Holy Trinity is a daughter parish of St. Theodosios, having been founded as an all English language services parish in the early 1960's.  Holy Trinity's architecture, country style, is reminiscent of the early church's established by the Russian Orthodox Church's mission in Alaska. The parish was well served since its founding by Fr. Vladimir Berzonsky who retired only this year, at the end of February. The immediate past Chancellor of the OCA, Fr. Alexander Garclavs, has been serving Holy Trinity since this past March.

[Basil 320]

Parking lots very light, no indications of delegate/alternate arrivals at the Holiday Inn-Independence or the Double Tree-South, upon cursory exterior review tonight.

[simplygermain]

Basil, would you mind starting a thread for updates on Parma? That is, I assume you are there. Some of us will not have access to the live podcasts due to work.

[Basil 320]

I live in the area; I'm not a delegate or an alternate.  I'll try to update what I can.  I'm going to Vespers tonight and the Liturgy in the morning.  If Fr. Vladimir were still the rector, I'm sure I  could have found a way to observe, but I have no more contacts in the parish.  I will listen to the podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio.  What I come up with, I will post here.

[rakovsky]

I wanted to see if there is a general response to the claims, singling out alot of the bishops, made on Guest Editorial: “Sons of Job” Call for New Leadership in the OCA
http://www.monomakhos.com/guest-editorial-sons-of-job-call-for-new-leadership-in-the-oca

On one hand, it seems to me there are sexual claims made about some hierarchs that sound real and troubling. On the other hand, I am very doubtful about claims made about people who generally impressed me as caring like Fr. Hopko and Bp. Michael. The three paragraphs about Bp. Michael don't necessarily boil down to anything, in my opinion, just that something could be there. And what about the claim that the good Fr. Schmemann had been "forced out" of his position?

So I think some claims are real and must be addressed. But I am also doubtful about taking it all, because it seems to take a shotgun approach where everyone is bad, except for the Metropolitan, who from the authors' viewpoint somehow (strangely) couldn't have the same kind of claims made about him based on his background.

[Schultz]

I wanted to see if there is a general response to the claims, singling out alot of the bishops, made on Guest Editorial: “Sons of Job” Call for New Leadership in the OCA
http://www.monomakhos.com/guest-editorial-sons-of-job-call-for-new-leadership-in-the-oca

On one hand, it seems to me there are sexual claims made about some hierarchs that sound real and troubling. On the other hand, I am very doubtful about claims made about people who generally impressed me as caring like Fr. Hopko and Bp. Michael. The three paragraphs about Bp. Michael don't necessarily boil down to anything, in my opinion, just that something could be there. And what about the claim that the good Fr. Schmemann had been "forced out" of his position?

So I think some claims are real and must be addressed. But I am also doubtful about taking it all, because it seems to take a shotgun approach where everyone is bad, except for the Metropolitan, who from the author's viewpoint somehow couldn't have the same kind of claims made about him based on his background.

Were I to be the same person I was ten years ago, a profane order to leave the premesis followed by a kick in the pants with a steel toed boot would be my reaction to the "Christians" who wrote that salacious gossip.

[podkarpatska]

I wanted to see if there is a general response to the claims, singling out alot of the bishops, made on Guest Editorial: “Sons of Job” Call for New Leadership in the OCA
http://www.monomakhos.com/guest-editorial-sons-of-job-call-for-new-leadership-in-the-oca

On one hand, it seems to me there are sexual claims made about some hierarchs that sound real and troubling. On the other hand, I am very doubtful about claims made about people who generally impressed me as caring like Fr. Hopko and Bp. Michael. The three paragraphs about Bp. Michael don't necessarily boil down to anything, in my opinion, just that something could be there. And what about the claim that the good Fr. Schmemann had been "forced out" of his position?

So I think some claims are real and must be addressed. But I am also doubtful about taking it all, because it seems to take a shotgun approach where everyone is bad, except for the Metropolitan, who from the author's viewpoint somehow couldn't have the same kind of claims made about him based on his background.

Were I to be the same person I was ten years ago, a profane order to leave the premesis followed by a kick in the pants with a steel toed boot would be my reaction to the "Christians" who wrote that salacious gossip.

They are gutless jerks. I agree with Schultz but would be less charitable as both Fr. Hopko and Bishop Michael are men I have know most of my life and they deserve better than this crap for the lifetime of service they have given The Orthodox Faith. In my opinion the folks on that blog would have been better suited as warriors for Oliver Cromwell, the Lord High Protector of England and 'purifier' of the Church of England and scourge of all Papists, after the ouster of the last Catholic monarchs following the last Tudor Queen. They profess a 'love' for Orthodoxy but have no use for hierarchs or clergy. To them they see the boogeyman behind everything that does not fit into their world view.

[Basil 320]

"Monomakhos" is speculating that Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh will be elected as the next Metropolitan.

[podkarpatska]

"Monomakhos" is speculating that Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh will be elected as the next Metropolitan.

I am guessing that is their secret hope as they fear that either Bishops Michael or Tikhon of Philadelphia would take no prisoners among the dissident clergy and laity who have been gossiping and spreading dissension within the OCA. I wouldn't be surprised regardless of who gets the white hat,  if at a minimum, all clergy had to profess or even sign an oath of loyalty to the new Primate  and be directed to refrain from web blogging and social media comments and those who do not agree to do so will face consequences. The wagons have to come out the circle and the shooting has to stop.

[witega]

all clergy had to profess or even sign an oath of loyalty to the new Primate

So you are suggesting the OCA is going to Orthodox ecclesiology altogether?


(Priests, other than those in his actual diocese, owe no loyalty to the 'primate'. They owe their loyalty to the bishop in whose name they serve. And Orthodox bishops are not subordinates who 'answer' to the primate. They are his equals (hence the phrase 'first among equals'). If the OCA tries to implement cult of personality personal loyalty oaths that really will sound its death knell as a viable Orthodox Church).

[Michał Kalina]

OCA Synod Issues Statement on Negotiations
http://oca.org/news/headline-news/oca-synod-issues-statement-on-negotiations

[podkarpatska]

all clergy had to profess or even sign an oath of loyalty to the new Primate

So you are suggesting the OCA is going to Orthodox ecclesiology altogether?


(Priests, other than those in his actual diocese, owe no loyalty to the 'primate'. They owe their loyalty to the bishop in whose name they serve. And Orthodox bishops are not subordinates who 'answer' to the primate. They are his equals (hence the phrase 'first among equals'). If the OCA tries to implement cult of personality personal loyalty oaths that really will sound its death knell as a viable Orthodox Church).

Call it what you want, I am sure any such demand will be 'kosher', but the net effect is the same. Don't presuppose for example if a priest in a Russian diocese in Siberia were to go on a media crusade against Patriarch Kyril of Moscow that he would not get into hot water with his local Bishop. To paraphrase George Orwell, in the Orthodox Church ALL Bishops are indeed equal, but SOME bishops are more equal than others. There is a primacy of honor and a priest and the laity, are ultimately responsible to THE Church as an institution - a priest can not be loyal to his Bishop but not to the larger Church Herself.

Now, the issue of 'loyalty' oaths does indeed have a troubled history, an infamous one is the one forced upon the Greek Catholic priests of the Eparchy of Pittsburgh by Bishop Basil Takach in 1932 which led to the formation of the ACROD:

"I the priest of the Greek Rite and
member of the Greek Rite Ruthenian Subcarpathian Eparchy in the
United States of America, greatly regret that on account of the ne-
farious instigations in our Eparchy the orders of the legitimate
authority, even those of the Holy See are despised and attacked.
By this declaration I wish state clearly that I abhore such line
of action and that I disassociate myself entirely from it in order
that nobody would even dare to accuse me maliciously of being a par-
ticipant or promoter of this rebellion.

Therefore, having in mind the well being of my Eparchy and of
the souls entrusted to me, I profess myself a faithful subject of
the Holy See and always ready to abide by the general and individu-
al orders, decrees and decisions of the Roman Pontiff and their sub-
stitutes, as of my legitimate Superiors, as well as by those on my
Eparchial Ordinary, promising to observe exactly their general and
particular orders, as they were issued in the past, at the present
and in the future, concerning the Universal Church or its part, espe-
cially those which have to do with the Rite and the Eparchy to
which I belong, namely all those ordinances contained in the Decree
of the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Church "Cum data fuerit"
issued March 1. 1929.

I also solemnly promise that according to my power and with the
help of God I will religiously try to hold back any attempts or in-
stigation against the ecclesiastical authority, which should be o-
beyed, in order that the blessed peace of Christ descend once more
upon our beloved faithful and remain with them perpetually."

Now, I have crossed through the parts obviously inimical to Orthodox ecclesiology, but a similar statement could likely be crafted in accordance with Orthodox church law. One of the problems in the OCA, as we outliers view it, is that folks and clergy in say the OCA Diocese of the South or the OCA Diocese of the West might feel allegiance to their own bishop or even to their own parish priest but not necessarily to the Church as a whole or to its Holy Synod and its Primate. Given the fact that a number of OCA priests have placed their names on petitions and blogs, including Monomakhos, expressing strong, polemical arguments against the Synod and have cast aspersions against many of their Bishops and priests without corroborative support,  there is a strong argument that the actions and words of some have indeed been 'instigations against ecclesiastical authority' which come close to if not beyond open rebellion against the Church. Sometimes obedience requires apology. The Church is not a band of independent anarchists.

[88Devin12]

I wanted to see if there is a general response to the claims, singling out alot of the bishops, made on Guest Editorial: “Sons of Job” Call for New Leadership in the OCA
http://www.monomakhos.com/guest-editorial-sons-of-job-call-for-new-leadership-in-the-oca

On one hand, it seems to me there are sexual claims made about some hierarchs that sound real and troubling. On the other hand, I am very doubtful about claims made about people who generally impressed me as caring like Fr. Hopko and Bp. Michael. The three paragraphs about Bp. Michael don't necessarily boil down to anything, in my opinion, just that something could be there. And what about the claim that the good Fr. Schmemann had been "forced out" of his position?

So I think some claims are real and must be addressed. But I am also doubtful about taking it all, because it seems to take a shotgun approach where everyone is bad, except for the Metropolitan, who from the authors' viewpoint somehow (strangely) couldn't have the same kind of claims made about him based on his background.

I don't see anything in the article about Fr. Thomas Hopko, only in the comments.

[88Devin12]

AFR has Fr. Thomas Hopko's sermon from this morning uploaded. God bless him!

[88Devin12]

First Ballot Results are in: http://ancientfaith.com/specials/aac_17/first_ballot_results

Apparently the top 3 so far are Bishop Michael, Archbishop Tikhon and Bishop Melchizedek (1st, 2nd & 3rd respectively). Finishing the top 5 would be Archbishop Nathaniel and Archbishop Benjamin (4th & 5th respectively).

As said in the audio, they are going to a second ballot since none of the 24 candidates received sufficient votes to be nominated.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Free-For-All > Religious Topics > Topic: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation