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Author Topic: Women bishops: Jesus was happy with female apostles. What is the CofE's problem?  (Read 3849 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2012, 01:34:56 AM »

By the way, do you disagree with the statement that there are people out there who we do not know but are mystically members of Christ's Church, or that may be saved when they die???
Not relevant to my arguments in this debate.

It is quite relevant because you are trying to tell me that the belief that there are some "in the Church" who aren't Orthodox Christians is a version of the "invisible church heresy" and so I was making the point that if you want to push it that far, then my above question should also logically be a part of that same heresy.

Also as Orhodox Christians, we have to be extremely careful not to exercise cognative dissonance when it comes to these things. If we see someone who is/was Orthodox living in sin or apart from the Church, we shouldn't try to rationalize it or explain it away or suggest that it is okay and they are fine. Just the same as we cannot (as Orthodox Christians) exercise cognative dissonance when a child of ours falls into a sin, we don't just say, "oh it's alright". If a relative starts living in sin with a lover, we don't just say "I just guess that's what kids do nowadays".
The same applies to these situations, if we know someone who was an Orthodox Christian who no longer adheres to Orthodoxy, we shouldnt try to explain it away to make ourselves feel better.
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« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2012, 02:09:55 AM »

By the way, do you disagree with the statement that there are people out there who we do not know but are mystically members of Christ's Church, or that may be saved when they die???
Not relevant to my arguments in this debate.

It is quite relevant because you are trying to tell me that the belief that there are some "in the Church" who aren't Orthodox Christians is a version of the "invisible church heresy" and so I was making the point that if you want to push it that far, then my above question should also logically be a part of that same heresy.

Also as Orhodox Christians, we have to be extremely careful not to exercise cognative dissonance when it comes to these things. If we see someone who is/was Orthodox living in sin or apart from the Church, we shouldn't try to rationalize it or explain it away or suggest that it is okay and they are fine. Just the same as we cannot (as Orthodox Christians) exercise cognative dissonance when a child of ours falls into a sin, we don't just say, "oh it's alright". If a relative starts living in sin with a lover, we don't just say "I just guess that's what kids do nowadays".
The same applies to these situations, if we know someone who was an Orthodox Christian who no longer adheres to Orthodoxy, we shouldnt try to explain it away to make ourselves feel better.
Why don't you go back and read my post again? Wink I have an annoying habit of submitting a post only to modify it several times over the next 5-10 minutes.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 02:11:32 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2012, 02:13:58 AM »

I think we can safely exclude the moderate-liberal parishioners from being Orthodox. Mere membership of our Church doesn't constitute being an "Orthodox Christian". Being an Orthodox Christian assumes you are practicing the "right-glory" or "right-belief", as well as Orthopraxis, "right-practice". To go directly against the vast majority of Orthodox Christians, Orthodox tradition, and Orthodox history is to essentially separate yourself from Orthodox Christianity.

I didn't realise you had this authority. Are there any other groups you'd like to excommunicate?

I didn't realize that one needed authority to speak the truth that we all know to be the case. To be Orthodox is to have the correct belief, plain and simple. We know what the right belief is as well because it is the Orthodox Church, and the Church has shown us what the truth is.

One doesn't have to be formally excommunicated to be outside of the church, we aren't that legalistic about it.
No, Devin, YOU are. Do you also not realize that you are essentially espousing a variant of the invisible church heresy?

Peter, if you wish to accuse me of heresy then you had better back it up!

As for what I said, I stand by it. The Church exists visibly here on earth, but there are people who are nominal members of it that do not hold to orthodoxy or orthopraxis, these people are not de facto members of the church. Cradles and converts don't get a free "in" just by being nominal members of the earthly Church.

Especially when they don't hold to His All-Holiness Devin, Supreme Patriarch of Orthodoxy, Metropolitan of Truth, Archbishop of Dogma, Inquisitor-General of the Genuine Church's opinions
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2012, 02:13:58 AM »

Orthodox Ecclesiology:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kalomiros.aspx

He makes an important point that a Bishop ceases to be a Bishop the moment he ceases to believe and teach Orthodoxy. The same is true for all of us, we cease to be Orthodox when we stop believing Orthodoxy.

So you think Metropolitan Bloom ceased to be a bishop?
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88Devin12
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« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2012, 02:21:19 AM »

Orthodox Ecclesiology:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kalomiros.aspx

He makes an important point that a Bishop ceases to be a Bishop the moment he ceases to believe and teach Orthodoxy. The same is true for all of us, we cease to be Orthodox when we stop believing Orthodoxy.

So you think Metropolitan Bloom ceased to be a bishop?

I will only say that I am glad he is not involved in current discourse in the Church, and I hope positions like his and the St Nina's group will be taken with a grain of salt. He was dead wrong in his position.

If I ever see a female Priest in our Church, I would probably shout some choice words (probably including anathema and anaxios) and storm out while spitting in the doorway and wiping/shaking my feet off (as St Paul had done). The moment she would vest and serve is the moment the Holy Spirit leaves that place and the Sacraments are no longer valid.

If I ever met a Bishop who voted for women's ordination in a synod or council and didn't recant, my reaction would be somewhat the same. The same as all the right believing Orthodox did to the apostate Bishops after the Council of Florence.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 02:38:47 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2012, 02:32:44 AM »

Orthodox Ecclesiology:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kalomiros.aspx

He makes an important point that a Bishop ceases to be a Bishop the moment he ceases to believe and teach Orthodoxy. The same is true for all of us, we cease to be Orthodox when we stop believing Orthodoxy.

So you think Metropolitan Bloom ceased to be a bishop?

I will only say that I am glad he is not involved in current discourse in the Church, and I hope positions like his and the St Nina's group will be taken with a grain of salt. He was dead wrong in his position.
So you won't say that he ceased to be a bishop. How very inconsistent of you. Wink
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2012, 02:40:48 AM »

Orthodox Ecclesiology:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kalomiros.aspx

He makes an important point that a Bishop ceases to be a Bishop the moment he ceases to believe and teach Orthodoxy. The same is true for all of us, we cease to be Orthodox when we stop believing Orthodoxy.

So you think Metropolitan Bloom ceased to be a bishop?

I will only say that I am glad he is not involved in current discourse in the Church, and I hope positions like his and the St Nina's group will be taken with a grain of salt. He was dead wrong in his position.
So you won't say that he ceased to be a bishop. How very inconsistent of you. Wink

If he had voted in favor of it in an official council and didn't later recant, then yes, I believe his Orthodoxy would be in question as well as his episcopacy. That goes for any Bishop...
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2012, 02:49:10 AM »

Devin, how old are you?
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2012, 02:50:28 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
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« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2012, 02:53:01 AM »

Orthodox Ecclesiology:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kalomiros.aspx

He makes an important point that a Bishop ceases to be a Bishop the moment he ceases to believe and teach Orthodoxy. The same is true for all of us, we cease to be Orthodox when we stop believing Orthodoxy.

So you think Metropolitan Bloom ceased to be a bishop?

I will only say that I am glad he is not involved in current discourse in the Church, and I hope positions like his and the St Nina's group will be taken with a grain of salt. He was dead wrong in his position.
So you won't say that he ceased to be a bishop. How very inconsistent of you. Wink

If he had voted in favor of it in an official council and didn't later recant, then yes, I believe his Orthodoxy would be in question as well as his episcopacy. That goes for any Bishop...
But now you're contradicting yourself, since you said earlier that a person automatically ceases to be a member of the Church the moment he adheres to an un-Orthodox belief.
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« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2012, 02:55:36 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
In this case, a lot, since the issue isn't so much how much you know as it is how vehemently you argue your points and how quick you are to condemn those with whom you disagree. You demonstrate great zeal, but not much wisdom.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 02:57:23 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2012, 02:56:55 AM »

Orthodox Ecclesiology:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kalomiros.aspx

He makes an important point that a Bishop ceases to be a Bishop the moment he ceases to believe and teach Orthodoxy. The same is true for all of us, we cease to be Orthodox when we stop believing Orthodoxy.

So you think Metropolitan Bloom ceased to be a bishop?

I will only say that I am glad he is not involved in current discourse in the Church, and I hope positions like his and the St Nina's group will be taken with a grain of salt. He was dead wrong in his position.
So you won't say that he ceased to be a bishop. How very inconsistent of you. Wink

If he had voted in favor of it in an official council and didn't later recant, then yes, I believe his Orthodoxy would be in question as well as his episcopacy. That goes for any Bishop...
But now you're contradicting yourself, since you said earlier that a person automatically ceases to be a member of the Church the moment he adheres to an un-Orthodox belief.

I said they cease to be Orthodox when they knowingly and willingly hold that heterodox belief and know it to be contrary to the Church's teachings, I didn't know Metropolitan Anthony and so I cannot judge whether or not he was conscious that it was heterodox.
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« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2012, 03:00:00 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 03:00:26 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2012, 03:01:19 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
In this case, a lot, since the issue isn't so much how much you know as it is how vehemently you argue your points and how quick you are to condemn those with whom you disagree.

So what does that matter? History has shown that appealing to emotions, beliefs and arguing vehemently against something is just as valid as making a reasoned argument with supporting facts. We shouldn't be so quick to buy into the BS of the enlightenment heretics.

How about some of you? I don't know your age, but I can tell you that even in the study I cited earlier, the liberal, hippy, promiscuous and "progressive" baby-boom generation is largely responsible for those who hold heterodox views in both our church and our world. Whereas it is the younger generations (and to some degree the oldest) who are taking a stand for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2012, 03:03:12 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.

What the? You think I'm in HIGH SCHOOL? That truly hurts... No, I'm not even close to high school age anymore.
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« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2012, 03:04:17 AM »

(and to some degree the oldest)
Soon there won't be many high-ranking ex-KGB left in Moscow.

Viva la revolucion.
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« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2012, 03:04:44 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.

What the? You think I'm in HIGH SCHOOL? That truly hurts... No, I'm not even close to high school age anymore.
Why would it be bad to be in high school?
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« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2012, 03:05:43 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.

What the? You think I'm in HIGH SCHOOL? That truly hurts... No, I'm not even close to high school age anymore.

Don't worry, it happens to many of us: especially when trying to buy alcohol or enter a casino.
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« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2012, 03:08:50 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.

What the? You think I'm in HIGH SCHOOL? That truly hurts... No, I'm not even close to high school age anymore.

Don't worry, it happens to many of us: especially when trying to buy alcohol or enter a casino.

The other day I encountered a high schooler in church who thought was in high school, darn, I shave and now people assume I'm 6-9 years younger. Right now it sucks but I hope it works when I'm twice this age.
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« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2012, 03:11:58 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.

What the? You think I'm in HIGH SCHOOL? That truly hurts... No, I'm not even close to high school age anymore.
Why would it be bad to be in high school?

While I know I'm not THAT separated from high school, I still find them very annoying... I want to slap some sense into them and make them realize that they won't be nothing after high school.
And don't get me started on middle schoolers, I want to wring their necks... But kids in elementary school, kindergarten, preschool and babies are cute and fun...
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« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2012, 03:15:51 AM »

I think you'd be a good canditate to play squash. Blow off some steam.
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« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2012, 03:20:18 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
In this case, a lot, since the issue isn't so much how much you know as it is how vehemently you argue your points and how quick you are to condemn those with whom you disagree.

So what does that matter? History has shown that appealing to emotions, beliefs and arguing vehemently against something is just as valid as making a reasoned argument with supporting facts.
No, history has not shown us that. An irrational argument is an irrational argument regardless of when it is made.

We shouldn't be so quick to buy into the BS of the enlightenment heretics.
The ability to craft a convincing, rational argument is not Enlightenment BS. Even the Holy Fathers knew that.

How about some of you? I don't know your age, but I can tell you that even in the study I cited earlier, the liberal, hippy, promiscuous and "progressive" baby-boom generation is largely responsible for those who hold heterodox views in both our church and our world. Whereas it is the younger generations (and to some degree the oldest) who are taking a stand for Orthodoxy.
This question about our age really is a straw man, ad hominem argument based on faulty generalizations. Just because a study says that people our age (whatever you think that age is) are more likely to be what you call liberal doesn't mean that everyone of us is so liberal; likewise, just because that same study says people of your generation are more likely to be traditional doesn't mean everyone in your generation is so traditional. You need to actually listen to us so you can know what each of us really thinks and stop constructing such asinine stereotypes. (BTW, there's someone else on this thread who's even younger than you who agrees with us old farts in thinking that you're acting like a pompous ass, so the list of those who don't like your behavior on this forum is really not defined by age. I'm also not a baby boomer.)

Our question about your age dealt specifically with the tone of your arguments on this thread. There is a huge difference between that and your question about our age.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 03:39:50 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2012, 03:26:38 AM »

Devin, how old are you?

What does my age have to do with anything?
If you're in highschool or something, I recommend you take a little break from all the theologizing and do something else. Perhaps a group of runners from your school is up to something right around this time, and you could join them. Rowers if you've got bodies of water.

It isn't healthy, this.

Hmmm....
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« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2012, 03:39:04 AM »

Why should I have a rational argument when I can sway people in real life by appealing to their feelings/emotions and the beliefs and memories? I've convinced far more people this way than by using facts and sources.

What people should do is submit to everything the Church says absolutely without question. We have no right to question the Church on anything and should simply accept things as they are and as they have been without any desire to ask why or any desire to seek change in it.

To question the Church, is ultimately, to end up questioning God himself, who created the Church and guided it and brought us our canons, doctrines and traditions.
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« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2012, 03:49:33 AM »

Why should I have a rational argument when I can sway people in real life by appealing to their feelings/emotions and the beliefs and memories? I've convinced far more people this way than by using facts and sources.
And yet an appeal to feelings, emotions, beliefs, and memories needs to have a rational basis. People can be convinced to buy a pile of BS if you appeal to the right emotions, but others can see through your sales tactics and recognize the pile of BS you're trying to sell them.

What people should do is submit to everything the Church says absolutely without question. We have no right to question the Church on anything and should simply accept things as they are and as they have been without any desire to ask why or any desire to seek change in it.
But, once again, I don't see anyone here questioning the Church. I see a lot of people questioning you, but I don't see anyone questioning the Church. You need to answer for why you believe as you do, and we're not going to allow you to hide behind the Church, especially since I don't think you're representing the Church truthfully.

To question the Church, is ultimately, to end up questioning God himself, who created the Church and guided it and brought us our canons, doctrines and traditions.
But questioning you is merely questioning you.
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« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2012, 05:17:20 AM »

I think you'd be a good canditate to play squash. Blow off some steam.

First rowing and now squash. You are speaking my language.

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« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2012, 07:01:50 AM »

What the? You think I'm in HIGH SCHOOL? That truly hurts... No, I'm not even close to high school age anymore.
Don't worry, it happens to many of us: especially when trying to buy alcohol or enter a casino.

I get that all the time and I'm 30.
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« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2012, 09:35:13 AM »

While I (and all Orthodox) stand strongly against the idea of allowing female priesthood

You do know you are wrong?

Not really, all Orthodox Christians oppose women being ordained to the priesthood.

_______________________________________

According to the Orthodox Church Today survey:
http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/OrthChurchFullReport.pdf

69% of Orthodox Christians feel women's ordination is not important or shouldn't be discussed, whereas only 10% think it is important.
Only 13% of GOA parishioners feel women's ordination is very important, and only 8% of OCA parishioners feel women's ordination is very important to be openly discussed.
Only 10% of GOA clergy feel women's ordination is very important to be openly discussed and only 6% of OCA priests feel women's ordination is very important to be openly discussed.

Only 3 out of 10 respondents feel they'd be comfortable seeing women as altar girls, deaconesses or priests. Yet at the same time, even less, 1 in 10 respondents feel they'd be comfortable allowing women into the Priesthood.

In fact, 51% of Orthodox Christians would openly oppose women being altar servers with 18% as unsure.
52% of Orthodox Christians would openly oppose women being deaconesses with 19% unsure.
As for the subject of women's ordination to the priesthood, an overwhelming majority, 77% of Orthodox Christians would openly oppose women's ordination to the Priesthood, with 13% as unsure.

The majority of those who would support women's ordination to the priesthood are of younger generations, and generally are middle-aged adults. The younger generations are significantly more opposed to it than the older generations. (this must be the factor of the liberal, hippy/baby-boom generation vs. modern generations)

In fact, only 5% of people under 45 support the idea of women's ordination to the priesthood. Whereas 15% of those between 45 and 64 support it.

Only 2% of conservative parishioners support women's ordination to the priesthood and only 7% of traditional parishioners support women's ordination. However, 20% of moderate-liberal parishioners would support women's ordination to the priesthood.

The survey also compares the Orthodox Church to the Roman Catholic Church...
In the Roman Catholic Church, 63% of parishioners would support women's ordination to the priesthood (with 93% supporting them as altar girls).
In the Orthodox Catholic Church, 10% of parishioners would support women's ordination to the priesthood (with 31% supporting them as altar girls).

_______________________________________________

Therefore, yes, I know what I'm talking about when I say all Orthodox Christians oppose women's ordination to the Priesthood. I think we can safely exclude the moderate-liberal parishioners from being Orthodox. Mere membership of our Church doesn't constitute being an "Orthodox Christian". Being an Orthodox Christian assumes you are practicing the "right-glory" or "right-belief", as well as Orthopraxis, "right-practice". To go directly against the vast majority of Orthodox Christians, Orthodox tradition, and Orthodox history is to essentially separate yourself from Orthodox Christianity.

The same moderate-liberal parishioners support women's ordination to the priesthood, personal interpretation of scripture & tradition, new forms of liturgical worship and diversity of beliefs & practices. The majority of liberal-moderate parishioners reject the idea that to be Orthodox means to accept all the teachings and traditions of the Orthodox Church. They also feel the most freedom to pick and choose between various parishes to that which "suites" them the best. They also support a variety of completely different viewpoints on the Church life in their parish. They also say that they can more easily imagine themselves learning Christianity from non-Orthodox Christians. Another belief the liberal-moderates hold is that how one lives is more important than whether one is an Orthodox Christian. Only 67% of the moderate-liberal group believe there is one best and true interpretation and that the Orthodox Church teaches it, this is extremely low compared to the traditional & conservative groups.
The majority of liberal-moderate parishioners also believe that you don't need to obey the priest, go to church every Sunday, observe fasting periods or have an approved marriage in order to be a good Orthodox Christian.

Such a view(s) cannot be compatible with Orthodox Christianity and simply shows how far many of these people are from Orthodox Christianity. If one can be classified in that moderate-liberal group, they cannot be classified as an Orthodox Christian. You aren't Orthodox just because are a member of a certain church.

We can safely exclude the moderate-liberal group as Orthodox Christians because of their beliefs, their "micro-theology" just as safely as we can exclude the members of groups like "Axios", who are clearly not Orthodox Christians.

So yes, all Orthodox Christians agree that women's priesthood is not something that can be allowed in our Church.

Based on your statistics (in the sense that you used them to argue your point), I have no idea how you can logically conclude that "all" Orthodox Christians are against women priests. Words do mean something and for your conclusion to be true, the statistics would have had to show zero percent support or 100 percent opposition. That is not the case, no?
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« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2012, 10:55:24 AM »

While I (and all Orthodox) stand strongly against the idea of allowing female priesthood

You do know you are wrong?

Not really, all Orthodox Christians oppose women being ordained to the priesthood.

_______________________________________

According to the Orthodox Church Today survey:
http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/OrthChurchFullReport.pdf

69% of Orthodox Christians feel women's ordination is not important or shouldn't be discussed, whereas only 10% think it is important.
Only 13% of GOA parishioners feel women's ordination is very important, and only 8% of OCA parishioners feel women's ordination is very important to be openly discussed.
Only 10% of GOA clergy feel women's ordination is very important to be openly discussed and only 6% of OCA priests feel women's ordination is very important to be openly discussed.

Only 3 out of 10 respondents feel they'd be comfortable seeing women as altar girls, deaconesses or priests. Yet at the same time, even less, 1 in 10 respondents feel they'd be comfortable allowing women into the Priesthood.

In fact, 51% of Orthodox Christians would openly oppose women being altar servers with 18% as unsure.
52% of Orthodox Christians would openly oppose women being deaconesses with 19% unsure.
As for the subject of women's ordination to the priesthood, an overwhelming majority, 77% of Orthodox Christians would openly oppose women's ordination to the Priesthood, with 13% as unsure.

The majority of those who would support women's ordination to the priesthood are of younger generations, and generally are middle-aged adults. The younger generations are significantly more opposed to it than the older generations. (this must be the factor of the liberal, hippy/baby-boom generation vs. modern generations)

In fact, only 5% of people under 45 support the idea of women's ordination to the priesthood. Whereas 15% of those between 45 and 64 support it.

Only 2% of conservative parishioners support women's ordination to the priesthood and only 7% of traditional parishioners support women's ordination. However, 20% of moderate-liberal parishioners would support women's ordination to the priesthood.

The survey also compares the Orthodox Church to the Roman Catholic Church...
In the Roman Catholic Church, 63% of parishioners would support women's ordination to the priesthood (with 93% supporting them as altar girls).
In the Orthodox Catholic Church, 10% of parishioners would support women's ordination to the priesthood (with 31% supporting them as altar girls).

_______________________________________________

Therefore, yes, I know what I'm talking about when I say all Orthodox Christians oppose women's ordination to the Priesthood. I think we can safely exclude the moderate-liberal parishioners from being Orthodox. Mere membership of our Church doesn't constitute being an "Orthodox Christian". Being an Orthodox Christian assumes you are practicing the "right-glory" or "right-belief", as well as Orthopraxis, "right-practice". To go directly against the vast majority of Orthodox Christians, Orthodox tradition, and Orthodox history is to essentially separate yourself from Orthodox Christianity.

The same moderate-liberal parishioners support women's ordination to the priesthood, personal interpretation of scripture & tradition, new forms of liturgical worship and diversity of beliefs & practices. The majority of liberal-moderate parishioners reject the idea that to be Orthodox means to accept all the teachings and traditions of the Orthodox Church. They also feel the most freedom to pick and choose between various parishes to that which "suites" them the best. They also support a variety of completely different viewpoints on the Church life in their parish. They also say that they can more easily imagine themselves learning Christianity from non-Orthodox Christians. Another belief the liberal-moderates hold is that how one lives is more important than whether one is an Orthodox Christian. Only 67% of the moderate-liberal group believe there is one best and true interpretation and that the Orthodox Church teaches it, this is extremely low compared to the traditional & conservative groups.
The majority of liberal-moderate parishioners also believe that you don't need to obey the priest, go to church every Sunday, observe fasting periods or have an approved marriage in order to be a good Orthodox Christian.

Such a view(s) cannot be compatible with Orthodox Christianity and simply shows how far many of these people are from Orthodox Christianity. If one can be classified in that moderate-liberal group, they cannot be classified as an Orthodox Christian. You aren't Orthodox just because are a member of a certain church.

We can safely exclude the moderate-liberal group as Orthodox Christians because of their beliefs, their "micro-theology" just as safely as we can exclude the members of groups like "Axios", who are clearly not Orthodox Christians.

So yes, all Orthodox Christians agree that women's priesthood is not something that can be allowed in our Church.

Based on your statistics (in the sense that you used them to argue your point), I have no idea how you can logically conclude that "all" Orthodox Christians are against women priests. Words do mean something and for your conclusion to be true, the statistics would have had to show zero percent support or 100 percent opposition. That is not the case, no?
Yeah, I saw that myself, but then he made his citation of statistics nothing more than irrelevant dross when he argued that we can safely exclude as non-Orthodox those who support women priests. In the end, he has reduced his logic to nothing more than this tautology: 100% of those who oppose women priests oppose women priests. Well, DUH! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2012, 12:32:31 PM »

100% of those who oppose women priests oppose women priests. Well, DUH! Roll Eyes

Even then that statement isn't entirely accurate.  As has been pointed out various respected hierarchs have simply stated we need to evaluate the position or not now.  So someone can be opposed to female priests without necessarily seeing it as a criterion of Orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2012, 03:48:40 PM »

100% of those who oppose women priests oppose women priests. Well, DUH! Roll Eyes

Even then that statement isn't entirely accurate.  As has been pointed out various respected hierarchs have simply stated we need to evaluate the position or not now.  So someone can be opposed to female priests without necessarily seeing it as a criterion of Orthodoxy.  
I'm only criticizing Devin's logic, since Devin has made opposition to female priests a criterion of Orthodoxy. I encourage you, therefore, to go back and reread the whole post from which you extracted your quote, along with all the other posts that establish the context for my reply. Wink
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« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2012, 04:24:49 PM »

On that point I agree, I meant to merely add that even those who oppose women's ordination might see it as a temporary opposition or altogether not a criterion of Orthodoxy - which would chip away even further at Devin's claim to it being the majority Orthodox position. 
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« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2012, 04:32:14 PM »

which would chip away even further at Devin's claim to it being the majority Orthodox position.

Claiming it to be the majority or established position isn't all that problematic, but I think Devin claimed it was a universally held Orthodox one.

I get your point though.
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« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2012, 05:53:41 PM »

which would chip away even further at Devin's claim to it being the majority Orthodox position.

Claiming it to be the majority or established position isn't all that problematic, but I think Devin claimed it was a universally held Orthodox one.
Devin did so only by excluding as non-Orthodox those who don't hold it--IOW, stacking the deck to make certain that ALL Orthodox oppose women priests.
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« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2012, 07:03:00 PM »

Devin, we believe that the Church is made up of those Christians gathered around their bishop to celebrate the Eucharist. I'm not aware that we make a distinction between those of "right belief" and those of "wrong belief" within the Church and say that those who don't hold to right belief are invisibly outside the Church. If you're in communion with an Orthodox bishop, you are in the Church. If you're not in communion with an Orthodox bishop, you are outside the Church. It's that simple.

Seeing that Jesus had no intention of starting a church your thesis smacks of self-righteous ideology - which is one reason why I hesitate to commit to Orthodoxy.  I see enough hypocrisy in everyday life without having it thrust on me by those who enjoy claiming the high moral ground.

Truth is that 'apostolic succession' is a invention of the nascent church to create some sort of authority and order.  I can accept such moves - any movement that becomes an institution needs an organization.  But to then apply that organizational aspect as something that determines who is, or who is not, 'in the Church' i.e Christian, is unsupported except for those who maintain ideology is more important than theology. 

There are, in fact, more Christians 'outside' the Church than in it.  The fact that the Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic, does not mean that there can only be one organized 'church'.  Given the diversity of humanity such would be impossible.  The Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic, from what the 'members' believe - not from some political manifesto than demands allegiance to some flag.
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« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2012, 07:05:34 PM »

Jesus had no intention of starting a church?

"Upon this rock..."

Please read more.
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« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2012, 07:29:46 PM »

Jesus had no intention of starting a church?

"Upon this rock..."

Please read more.

A rock is not a church.
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« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2012, 07:30:46 PM »

Upon this rock, I will build my church.

Go look it up.
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« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2012, 07:38:34 PM »

Upon this rock, I will build my church.

Go look it up.

Bad translation - has always been a bad translation and one that was designed to meet the ideology of the ecclesiastical police - go read.
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« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2012, 07:45:20 PM »

Wow, you sure are Protestant. They are a decided minority in the world. The Roman Catholics are a billion people, the Orthodox are 250-300 million, and since there are only 2 billion Christians •at all• in the world, all Protestants together are the remainder. Oh, and I didn't subtract the mainline liturgical Protestants like the Anglicans and the Lutherans, who branched off from the Roman Catholics and are still similar to them. That leaves you with the Evangelicals.

You don't get to revise history or the Scriptures just because you don't like them.
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« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2012, 09:45:01 PM »

Wow, you sure are Protestant. They are a decided minority in the world. The Roman Catholics are a billion people, the Orthodox are 250-300 million, and since there are only 2 billion Christians •at all• in the world, all Protestants together are the remainder. Oh, and I didn't subtract the mainline liturgical Protestants like the Anglicans and the Lutherans, who branched off from the Roman Catholics and are still similar to them. That leaves you with the Evangelicals.

You don't get to revise history or the Scriptures just because you don't like them.

Nice attempt at dodging the issue.  

Read the Bible, read the texts of the early church and tell me where Jesus organized a 'church'.  

You can't because no such text exists.  The church came about because of the necessity to organize.

You can play with the statistics as much as you like but scripture fails to support your thesis.

My point has been that the 'church' has changed any number of 'issues' and can changed again - if it wishes.
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« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2012, 09:55:30 PM »

Upon this rock, I will build my church.

Go look it up.

Bad translation - has always been a bad translation and one that was designed to meet the ideology of the ecclesiastical police - go read.

Here is Matt 16:18, in the original Greek:

κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

To suggest that the word ἐκκλησίαν (ekklesia) means anything other than church is simply laughable.
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« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2012, 09:58:26 PM »

Upon this rock, I will build my church.

Go look it up.

Bad translation - has always been a bad translation and one that was designed to meet the ideology of the ecclesiastical police - go read.

Here is Matt 16:18, in the original Greek:

κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

To suggest that the word ἐκκλησίαν (ekklesia) means anything other than church is simply laughable.

What is the proposed alternative translation?
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« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2012, 11:04:45 PM »

Devin, how old are you?

What difference does it make?  I am 51, and I agree with him completely regarding this matter.
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« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2012, 10:56:54 AM »

I'm not in favor of women's ordination, but I don't see the question as a criterion of Orthodoxy.

I think the biggest problem in the discussion is the idea of equality and exactly what "equality" means. Does the equality of men and women in the Church mean that they must be able to do all of the same stuff?

What does it mean when St. Mary Magdalene is called "Equal-to-the-Apostles" but is not actually an apostle?
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