OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 23, 2014, 12:32:36 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Get up Stand Up  (Read 5214 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2012, 04:33:28 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam


What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.

What more can I say other than what I have said above?

Peace and Love my sister.  Smiley

Besime Ab, WeWolde, WeMenfesQidus, Ahadu Amlak, -amen-


Selam

what you can say is that the next time you try to support a rastafarian ideology you will not attempt to give it the veneer of Orthodoxy. just speak your rastafarian thoughts as they are and I will stay out of your way. is that too much to ask? do not pretend that rastafarianisim is compatible with orthodoxy. away with the egotistical comments of false piety When talking about the Faith we must talk in Truth. Orthodoxy heals the broken ego of man by transfiguring it in Christ so the New Man in Christ is capable of dying to himself and capable of True humility and Love.  these two are not compatible or similar in any way whatsoever. so while you have a right to follow rastafariansim to your heart's content but for God sake stop trying to pass it as orthodox or even remotely similar to Orthodoxy. Thank you.


I acknowledge your words above that I have highlighted in bold. I hope you will heed your own admonition. Forgive me if I have come across as falsely pious or self-righteous. I am only a sinner in need of much prayer.



Selam

yeap, acknowledged or not, when we talk about the Faith we must talk in Truth,  however my brother you want to talk about yourself, so go ahead, and keep talking.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
BrassMonkey
Sinful but hopeful
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain
Posts: 79


Most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2012, 06:24:13 AM »

I apologise if my little thread has been the cause of any ill-will. I am not going to weigh in on the great Rastafari/Orthodox debate as I know very little about it. There don't seem to be many rastas in Scotland. Smiley

I was just wondering what the song meant- if it's blasphemous, as some think, I'll be hitting the skip button. The following interested me though:
Again, while I love the guy, Tosh (relevant to "Get up Stand up") was pretty dern anti-Christian.  Maybe Marley came all around, but I still think a lot of his lyrics are a stretch (at best).

I assumed Marley wrote it, not Tosh. Wikipedia says this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Up_Stand_Up
Quote
Marley wrote the song while flying out of Haiti, deeply moved by its poverty and the lives of Haitians, according his then-girlfriend Esther Anderson.[1] The song was frequently performed at Marley's concerts, often as the last song. "Get Up, Stand Up" was also the last song Marley ever performed on stage, on September 23, 1980 at the Stanley Theater in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

On his DVD Live at the Hollywood Bowl, artist Ben Harper relates a childhood experience in which, during a 1978 Bob Marley concert at the Starlight Amphitheater, Peter Tosh showed up unannounced as this song was being performed, took the microphone from Marley and started singing the last verse of the song to thunderous applause. Tosh was on tour opening for the Rolling Stones at the time

Did Marley not intend the third verse? Apparently he didn't sing in the version on Live!:
http://www.nomorelyrics.net/bob_marley-lyrics/8717-get_up_stand_up-lyrics.html

I'm speculating here. Thanks to everyone for your input.
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2012, 12:58:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In my opinion, a listener may and should be able to interpret a song however he/she wishes for his/her own private recreational listening, without any regard to the artist's intentions. I do this all the time. Such an approach reflects--again, in my opinion--respect for such music as 'art' in the fullest sense of the term.

Interpreting a song as being morally or spiritually compatible with Orthodoxy may be difficult to do naturally and in good conscience, however, if it is clear that the artist intended it in a contrary manner.

I'm not going to comment on the song under discussion, except to say that I would support HabteSelassie's decision to value it as part of his music collection if he in good conscience is naturally inclined to register its references to Christ in the Orthodox manner he believes them to have been intended--whether or not they were indeed so intended.

Whoa whoa whoa, slow it down.  Y'all have gotten confused by my interpretations.  I never implied that the Wailers original intentions to Get Up Stand Up were theologically Orthodox, or necessarily in support with the Orthodox Church.  Rewind Mr Selectah!  That is what got Sis Hiwot all mixed up too! What I said was that Get Up Stand Up is a spiritual song, not a political song, and the Standing Up part is in reference to acting on your faith, whatever it may be, and in my case, it is Orthodox.  The Rastafari movement is a spiritual Liberation movement.  Again, Rastafari  seek to liberate folks from the bondage and ignorance of Sin, to understand that only God and deal with our political and social situations.  We must act on FAITH.  This is how we get up and stand up, and how we manifest our rights into action.  Our civil rights are as dependent upon our faith as is anything else in life.  That is the original intent of this song by the Wailers, that folks get conscious, that folks get moving, that folks get up and active and dynamic in their faith, wherever their faith in God may bring them.  As for me, my Faith in God brought me into the Orthodox Church, God be praised Smiley

When I compared Get Up Stand Up to what the Deacon's pray as "Stand Up for prayer" it was not necessarily a literal comparison.  It was symbolic, spiritual.  When the Deacons ask us to stand up for prayer, again, they are asking us to be active and dynamic in our faith, in our prayer, to be directly involved spiritually with the Liturgy.  To stand up reaching for God.  When the Wailers sing "Get Up Stand Up" they are saying the same kind of thing, though not literally.  No, the Wailers were not saying that folks should stand up at Liturgy, what they were saying was that folks need to get up and stand up in their faith in God.  In this, the vibe is the same.  To be sure, even though it was at the end of his life, brother Bob Marley did in fact find his way to stand up for prayer at the Service of his own baptism.  He died a baptised Orthodox Christian, and folks should be very careful not to trample on his Memory Eternal.  Apostle Paul was killing Christians before he came to the Church, we don't seem to hold that against him, why should Bob Marley err Birhane Selassie not also be respected and remembered has having passed in the Church?  Yes, his life before that was filled with scandal, whose isn't? However, again, this  brother died a faithful member of the Church, having finally acted on his convictions and taken that important step to join the Church through Baptism.  His wife and several of his children were not only baptised but are also still active members of the Tewahedo Church in Kingston, Jamaica by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2012, 02:10:08 PM »

Apostle Paul was killing Christians before he came to the Church, we don't seem to hold that against him, why should Bob Marley err Birhane Selassie not also be respected and remembered has having passed in the Church?

I agree, but would add that we do not seek to venerate or make acceptable Paul's pre-conversion works. So this comparison isn't very good if you want to convince us that there is nothing wrong with considering secular/political reggae and Rastafarianism as compatible with or comparable to Orthodoxy or any particular part of the Orthodox liturgy just because the writer of this particular song later became Orthodox himself. I mean, let's be real: We're talking about a pop star who you particularly like, not St. Yared here. I'm not going to say it's wrong to like Bob Marley's music (I have a few of his albums myself, though I don't listen to them hardly ever) or be inspired by his person, but some of what is posted in this thread is really stretching beyond that in an attempt to justify syncretism.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:29:23 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2012, 02:44:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In my opinion, a listener may and should be able to interpret a song however he/she wishes for his/her own private recreational listening, without any regard to the artist's intentions. I do this all the time. Such an approach reflects--again, in my opinion--respect for such music as 'art' in the fullest sense of the term.

Interpreting a song as being morally or spiritually compatible with Orthodoxy may be difficult to do naturally and in good conscience, however, if it is clear that the artist intended it in a contrary manner.

I'm not going to comment on the song under discussion, except to say that I would support HabteSelassie's decision to value it as part of his music collection if he in good conscience is naturally inclined to register its references to Christ in the Orthodox manner he believes them to have been intended--whether or not they were indeed so intended.

Whoa whoa whoa, slow it down.  Y'all have gotten confused by my interpretations.  I never implied that the Wailers original intentions to Get Up Stand Up were theologically Orthodox, or necessarily in support with the Orthodox Church.  Rewind Mr Selectah!  That is what got Sis Hiwot all mixed up too! What I said was that Get Up Stand Up is a spiritual song, not a political song, and the Standing Up part is in reference to acting on your faith, whatever it may be, and in my case, it is Orthodox.  The Rastafari movement is a spiritual Liberation movement.  Again, Rastafari  seek to liberate folks from the bondage and ignorance of Sin, to understand that only God and deal with our political and social situations.  We must act on FAITH.  This is how we get up and stand up, and how we manifest our rights into action.  Our civil rights are as dependent upon our faith as is anything else in life.  That is the original intent of this song by the Wailers, that folks get conscious, that folks get moving, that folks get up and active and dynamic in their faith, wherever their faith in God may bring them.  As for me, my Faith in God brought me into the Orthodox Church, God be praised Smiley

When I compared Get Up Stand Up to what the Deacon's pray as "Stand Up for prayer" it was not necessarily a literal comparison.  It was symbolic, spiritual.  When the Deacons ask us to stand up for prayer, again, they are asking us to be active and dynamic in our faith, in our prayer, to be directly involved spiritually with the Liturgy.  To stand up reaching for God.  When the Wailers sing "Get Up Stand Up" they are saying the same kind of thing, though not literally.  No, the Wailers were not saying that folks should stand up at Liturgy, what they were saying was that folks need to get up and stand up in their faith in God.  In this, the vibe is the same.  To be sure, even though it was at the end of his life, brother Bob Marley did in fact find his way to stand up for prayer at the Service of his own baptism.  He died a baptised Orthodox Christian, and folks should be very careful not to trample on his Memory Eternal.  Apostle Paul was killing Christians before he came to the Church, we don't seem to hold that against him, why should Bob Marley err Birhane Selassie not also be respected and remembered has having passed in the Church?  Yes, his life before that was filled with scandal, whose isn't? However, again, this  brother died a faithful member of the Church, having finally acted on his convictions and taken that important step to join the Church through Baptism.  His wife and several of his children were not only baptised but are also still active members of the Tewahedo Church in Kingston, Jamaica by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

dude give it up already! you keep saying rastafarianisim is a spiritual movement only and not political really?! hahaha, Oh Pluzz!!! but even so let us see what kind of spirituality is in rastafarianisim shall we ? you say it preaches liberation from sin? by whome? by the Emperor? which Zion is being referred in rastafarianisim? earthly or heavenly Zion? the tribes of Israel huh is not a pseudospiritual political movement? the mansions you speak of are they then the heavenly mansions Christ talked about? how deep the distortion , and the mockery goes! we know rastafarianisim is a spiritual and a political movement for you to rearrange it today will not change the fact. it only makes you a crafty discever. you say the anti slavery struggle for freedom of mind and the physical manifestations of freedom are not a political movement? stand up against sin you say, how does one stands up against sin with out the Holy Spirit? how can one be truly spiritual without the Holy Spirit? if the message of rastafarianisim who cry out Jah rastafari to the emperor and others who echo them in their allegiance to the message of the black Zionism Rastafarian's preach , if that is what you claim as a spiritual and not political, forgive me and others who would disagree with you. it is all politics which chose to utilise the spiritual side of humanity as well to manipulate it to its end. in this case they chose the JudeoChristian Scripture and Tradition for their distortion and blasphemy towards their political goal.
next by your definition we will hear that Communism was also a spiritual movement alone and not political also which was fighting against sin, , that the freedom it spoke of was a freedom from sin. the international it sung was a cry for the unity of mankind under God. dude!  Rastafarianisim remains a political and spiritual movement that is contrary to the Christian message for humanity period! those it enslaves can not seem to shake the effect of its egotistical aspirations, that feeds on hate and victim mentality, barring them from being transformed with the conviction of heart to the Christian message because they can not seem to abandon their ideological idols, they love them too much. Christ is simply asking them too much when he asks them to separate themselves from that worldly junk that masquerades for spirituality.

the Bob Marley conversion is one thing his life and his work before his conversion is another, in the same manner Saint Paul's conversion brings glory to God because of how much radically transformed he was in the Gospel that he persecuted before. even he speaks of the nature of his prior life, especially as a persecutor of the Church. we will never say that St.Paul was orthodox before his conversion, instead we say he was get this ' a persecutor of the Church' how Glorious his conversion is because of how radically transformed he became. now you want to argue that bob Marley just because he converted at the end of his life into orthodoxy , that all of a sudden transforms his prior heretical works into one of orthodoxy? give me a break! preach that somewhere else, do not insult the intelligence of your orthodox christian audience here please spare yourself the embarrassment.

we oppose Rastafarianisim, because it is a heretical spiritual teaching! we oppose Rastafarianisim because it is a racially motivated psuedospiritual political Cult that longs for the earthly Zion of the so called black tribes of Israel! we oppose Rastafarianisim because people like you try to pass it as compatible with the Orthodox Faith, preaching how spiritually similar they are in their quest for liberation from sin  what a jock! I would have laughed if it was not so pathetically sad and blasphemous!

you never say you have erred , your ego will never allow it, so it must be other people who misunderstand you when you outrightly lie as to the political movement that is rastafarianisim. it must be others who are confused when they say you are wrong to compare the call of rastafarians  high on weed from their club stages to get up and stand up pumping up their fist, as the same as the call for Worship in the Spirit by the Deacon of the Orthodox Church in the Divine Liturgy! thus by default you want us to think Rastafarianisim is of such a spiritual movement of dying to the self, and the lusts of the flesh, and living in the Spirit transformed life of repentance and purity, found in Christ? how noble of you as a loyal servant of the Rastafarianisim spirituality and politics, and as member of the 12 tribes of Israel as you call yourself advocate of the mansions of rastafarianisim, howelse are you supposed to react ?

But know this, Christ has already called you to be radically different than those you meet in those mansions in the business as usual for rastafarians in their gathering for spiritual worship as you seem to say is all they are doing. you are not to participate in worship or spirituality of any other group than the orthodox Christian spirituality. if they are like you said only spiritual movement then you are even in great danger and those whom you are affirming in their errors are even more in danger, because what are you doing participating in what you have admittedly said is a spiritual movement that is not Orthodoxy? or are you in the end saying that it is ( Rastafarianisim) Orthodoxy? well are you? so what are you saying? should we join the Baha'i movement because of their spirituality and say they are after all similar to orthodoxy thus we can join them and still be Orthodox Christians?  Lord have mercy!
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2012, 03:04:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Thank you sister, for you kind and thoughtful words.  By the way, since you always seem so preoccupied with other people's sins,  I hope and sincerely pray that you recall that those sins that Jesus wrote on the ground to silence the crowd in John 8, well admittedly they were indeed my sins God help me for that,  but while  I can't be sure  some of them were perhaps  yours too  Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 03:06:08 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Thank you sister, for you kind and thoughtful words.  By the way, since you always seem so preoccupied with other people's sins,  I hope and sincerely pray that you recall that those sins that Jesus wrote on the ground to silence the crowd in John 8, well admittedly they were indeed my sins God help me for that,  but while  I can't be sure  some of them were perhaps  yours too  Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie



Oh habte, resorting  back to the usual lets talk about how Pious I am talk, instead of answering the question. I noticed you have not answered a single one of those questions, and by doing so you have declared your position. chose the tree, life or death. you can not climb the two together. The matter of the Faith once more overshadowed by crafty false piety. Lord have mercy!
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2012, 03:51:04 PM »

Can we all agree that the fact that we are all sinners is assumed by everyone, no matter what the conversation is actually about? Because I don't see what bringing up sins and all that (yours or others) has to do with the topic of Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy. If we were talking about another aspect of the faith, say...I don't know...vestments, would the conversation still proceed this way? I don't think so. Just imagine it:

Person A: This clown suit reminds me of our Priest's vestments.

Person B: Uh...what? How do you figure?

Person A: Because the clown wears this suit when performing the clown ritual.

Person B: Yeah, I'm really not seeing it. I don't think the two really have anything to do with each other.

Person A: Well you are busy focusing on other people's sins. Maybe you also have your own sins you should focus on!

Person B: Of course I have my own sins...that's not what we're actually talking about...

Repeat ad nauseam.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 03:54:43 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2012, 04:04:01 PM »

Can we all agree that the fact that we are all sinners is assumed by everyone, no matter what the conversation is actually about? Because I don't see what bringing up sins and all that (yours or others) has to do with the topic of Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy. If we were talking about another aspect of the faith, say...I don't know...vestments, would the conversation still proceed this way? I don't think so. Just imagine it:

Person A: This clown suit reminds me of our Priest's vestments.

Person B: Uh...what? How do you figure?

Person A: Because the clown wears this suit when performing the clown ritual.

Person B: Yeah, I'm really not seeing it. I don't think the two really have anything to do with each other.

Person A: Well you are busy focusing on other people's sins. Maybe you also have your own sins you should focus on!

Person B: Of course I have my own sins...that's not what we're actually talking about...

Repeat ad nauseam.  Roll Eyes

 +1

LOL! yep that pretty much sums up this unfortunate situation  Grin
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
BrassMonkey
Sinful but hopeful
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain
Posts: 79


Most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2012, 04:06:43 PM »

Hiwot,

I think you make some valid points about maintaining the purity of the faith. I thank you for that, at least.

Now: perhaps HabteSelassie and Gebre Menfes Kidus really are a pair of nefarious wolves in sheep's clothing, out to corrupt us all into a bunch of ganga-smoking black supremacists and I, in my innocence, have failed to see it. Whatever. They seem alright to me, whether I agree with them or not.

However, your posts have developed a vicious, snarky and needlessly personal tone to them. If I weren't already Orthodox, reading your comments would not encourage me to find out more. I haven't heard such poorly-concealed hatred since someone shoved a Jack Chick tract into my hand.

Kindly knock it off or please get off my thread.
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2012, 04:35:38 PM »

Hiwot,

I think you make some valid points about maintaining the purity of the faith. I thank you for that, at least.

Now: perhaps HabteSelassie and Gebre Menfes Kidus really are a pair of nefarious wolves in sheep's clothing, out to corrupt us all into a bunch of ganga-smoking black supremacists and I, in my innocence, have failed to see it. Whatever. They seem alright to me, whether I agree with them or not.

However, your posts have developed a vicious, snarky and needlessly personal tone to them. If I weren't already Orthodox, reading your comments would not encourage me to find out more. I haven't heard such poorly-concealed hatred since someone shoved a Jack Chick tract into my hand.

Kindly knock it off or please get off my thread.

I respect your opinion on the matter, however, what they are falsely representing is my church's teaching and its views on rastafariansim as if it is acceptable by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahdo Church, going far as to use the Church's Iconography and Divine Liturgy as well as the attempt to evangelise the Caribbeans as examples of the Church's embracing Rastafarianisim. now this is very personal to me and anyone them or any other person who teaches differently than the orthodox Faith in the name of the Church has no other description than a wolf with a sheep clothing. if I am mistaken in my understanding of what heresies are and those who propagate them are then correct me and I will be corrected. what habte and gebre do in their personal life is not my business I have never referred to them as smoking ganja etc however ganja smoking is a sacrament in rastafarianisim those singers have been doing so and I was addressing those people they have defended with a valid theological reason of the sacraments as imparting grace of the Holy Spirit.even if hating habte and gebre is what I wanted to do in life, i do not know them to hate them as you say I do. if anything God knows I wish to be the one voice among many of an Orthodox Christian they hear that will never affirm them in their errors when it comes to the Faith. I wish them to see how different the path they are in from orthodoxy, if they embrace orthodoxy truly then what they seek is already here. but if they settle for the fake brand and teach others the same then they have no communion with the Body of Christ so teaches the Orthodox Church.

I hate the heterodoxy they preach with such a crafty manner, never them as a person. I am sorry you perceived it that way. if they stop misrepresenting the Orthodox Faith and Church in their defense of their Rastafarian beliefs then I assure you I will quite naturally will stay out of 'your thread'.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2012, 08:09:32 AM »

"Let others mock you and oppose you. When you are under the influence of any passion, do not be in the least offended with those who mock or oppose you, for they do you good. Crucify your self-love and acknowledge the wrong, the error of your heart. But have the deepest pity for those who mock at words and works of faith and piety, of righteousness, for those who oppose the good which you are doing. God preserve you from getting exasperated at them."  -Saint John of Kronstadt-



Selam
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 08:10:41 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2012, 09:03:13 AM »

I have no dog in this fight (thankfully) although I do like Bob Marley's music. I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox convert as you probably know. I came to the Church whilst living and working in Romania. Now as that was not my native culture I was learning about Romanian history, culture and Orthodoxy all as something foreign and one thing that was startlingly apparent was that, unlike in my Protestant background, anything that looked remotely pagan was not automatically condemned but actually was often absorbed into the practice of the Church where it did not contradict it. Aspects of pre-Christian culture were baptised (just look at the painted - and no I don't mean died red - eggs as an obvious example). Now this was obviously centuries ago and the baptism of (some) Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Church is much more recent, but I fail to see why a similar process couldn't happen with Rastafarian culture (I don't know many Rastafarians but as an outsider they seem to have a distinct culture quite apart from any particular religious beliefs). I could imagine a future Orthodox Church in the Carribean with distinctictive traditions due to a Rastafarian past, just as I see Ethiopia (or Serbia, or Romania and so on) now has distinctive traditions due to its pre-Christian past. It wouldn't mean it was any less Orthodox.

Now I'm not saying that Rastafarian beliefs are compatible with the Orthodox Faith - clearly this is not true - but I think non-religious aspects of Rastafarian culture must be. To say that it is either totally compatible or totally incompatible seems equally fallacious to me.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2012, 09:26:14 AM »

I have no dog in this fight (thankfully) although I do like Bob Marley's music. I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox convert as you probably know. I came to the Church whilst living and working in Romania. Now as that was not my native culture I was learning about Romanian history, culture and Orthodoxy all as something foreign and one thing that was startlingly apparent was that, unlike in my Protestant background, anything that looked remotely pagan was not automatically condemned but actually was often absorbed into the practice of the Church where it did not contradict it. Aspects of pre-Christian culture were baptised (just look at the painted - and no I don't mean died red - eggs as an obvious example). Now this was obviously centuries ago and the baptism of (some) Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Church is much more recent, but I fail to see why a similar process couldn't happen with Rastafarian culture (I don't know many Rastafarians but as an outsider they seem to have a distinct culture quite apart from any particular religious beliefs). I could imagine a future Orthodox Church in the Carribean with distinctictive traditions due to a Rastafarian past, just as I see Ethiopia (or Serbia, or Romania and so on) now has distinctive traditions due to its pre-Christian past. It wouldn't mean it was any less Orthodox.

Now I'm not saying that Rastafarian beliefs are compatible with the Orthodox Faith - clearly this is not true - but I think non-religious aspects of Rastafarian culture must be. To say that it is either totally compatible or totally incompatible seems equally fallacious to me.

James


Good points my friend. Habte and I have insistenly reiterated that we do NOT worship Haile Selassie. We are baptized members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, and we defend Orthodox Tewahedo truth to the fullest.

At the risk of self justification and self-defense, I am posting a link to my Testimony of Baptism into The Ethiopian Orthodox Church. I sent this testimony to my Priest before I was baptized, and upon reading it he told me that he would baptize me (this was after I had been a catechumen for two years.)

It saddens me whenever a brother or sister casts aspersion on my faith or my Christian convictions. But I know that I must ultimately answer to God rather than man. I truly believe that our sister Hiwot only means well and that she is truly concerned with preserving sound doctrine. So, I harbor no ill will towars her.



http://mysteryandmeaning.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-spiritual-journey.html



Selam



 
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
BrassMonkey
Sinful but hopeful
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain
Posts: 79


Most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »

"Let others mock you and oppose you. When you are under the influence of any passion, do not be in the least offended with those who mock or oppose you, for they do you good. Crucify your self-love and acknowledge the wrong, the error of your heart. But have the deepest pity for those who mock at words and works of faith and piety, of righteousness, for those who oppose the good which you are doing. God preserve you from getting exasperated at them."  -Saint John of Kronstadt-



Selam

Sounds like sage advice. Knowing my temper, the next time it comes to mind will probably be about ten seconds too late. Smiley
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2012, 02:55:49 PM »

I have no dog in this fight (thankfully) although I do like Bob Marley's music. I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox convert as you probably know. I came to the Church whilst living and working in Romania. Now as that was not my native culture I was learning about Romanian history, culture and Orthodoxy all as something foreign and one thing that was startlingly apparent was that, unlike in my Protestant background, anything that looked remotely pagan was not automatically condemned but actually was often absorbed into the practice of the Church where it did not contradict it. Aspects of pre-Christian culture were baptised (just look at the painted - and no I don't mean died red - eggs as an obvious example). Now this was obviously centuries ago and the baptism of (some) Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Church is much more recent, but I fail to see why a similar process couldn't happen with Rastafarian culture (I don't know many Rastafarians but as an outsider they seem to have a distinct culture quite apart from any particular religious beliefs). I could imagine a future Orthodox Church in the Carribean with distinctictive traditions due to a Rastafarian past, just as I see Ethiopia (or Serbia, or Romania and so on) now has distinctive traditions due to its pre-Christian past. It wouldn't mean it was any less Orthodox.

Now I'm not saying that Rastafarian beliefs are compatible with the Orthodox Faith - clearly this is not true - but I think non-religious aspects of Rastafarian culture must be. To say that it is either totally compatible or totally incompatible seems equally fallacious to me.

James

thank you dear James I unfortunately can not claim that I do not have a dog in this fight  Grin a cross one must bear the best way one can, so to speak.



First of all I agree that all cultures and traditions can be transformed by Christianity that is in fact how Christianity has operated throughout the world. I was not being ignorant of this when I commented that the Rastafarianism as embraced by habte and gebre, the Rastafarianism that goes beyond the worship of the emperor is still incompatible with orthodoxy.  This is evidenced by how they interpret and compare Rastafarianism with the Orthodox Faith. Now I also know that this is not as relevant to the most Eastern Orthodox Folks as it does not directly affect them, it is easy to say let them battle it out.  But I would hope the Christian witness does not stop by jurisdictions.But Let me ask if they were going around saying claiming according to the orthodox understanding Bob Marley is the modern day psalmist, like King David, the song he sung are similar if not the same in message and intent as the Divine Liturgy. Then cry out Jah RAstafari when the opportunity arises, claiming they are doing it to God not the Emperor. Would this be acceptable with the Eastern Orthodox as an Orthodox Expression of their Faith?


through out the world When those things that can be transformed by Christianity are maintained the rest of the incompatible was always thrown out.

If Rastafarianism is a spiritual movement is it going to be embraced in the Church as a Rastafarianism?

Even if we say that the Emperor Rastafari was Orthodox, should we still create a sect that says they are Orthodox but will continue to say Jah Rastafari in their prayers, and will continue to call them Rastafarians in the spiritual sense of the term. What did Saint Paul say about calling oneself Apollo’s or Paul’s? Can we do that in the Church? Will this be acceptable by  the canons of the EOchurch?

But this is all a rethorical question, as I know the answer. Still one does need to pause and reflect on these things.

Rastafarianism has in it a culture that can be transformed into Christianity, such as vegetarianism however the vegetarian Orthodox Christian cannot continue to call themselves spiritually Rastafarian. Because let’s face it Rastafarianism as spiritual philosophy whether or not it worships the Emperor is a heretical blasphemous cult.

I will say it again
The worship of the Emperor hailesilase 1 was not the only point of rastafarianisim , there were many who did not worship the emperor yet still were Rastafarians politicaly. some would like to down play the political significance of the rastafarianisim movement  in a flip flop attempt to deny its political aspirations towards social justice and social freedom in the political sense of the term. How it dreams about achieving those is also a matter of great importance to consider.


Rastafarianism Whether or not it worships the Emperor  as a spiritual philosophy with all its sophistries it is a heretical and blasphemous cult.
Many want to go on as they were before after their baptism into Orthodoxy, they see it as an affirmation of their prior held beliefs because they say ‘I have never worshiped the Emperor anyway, so the rest of the stuff I profess as a Rastafarian is Orthodoxy’
It is very much easier when one deals with heretics such as Jehovah witness because they admit what they believe in and what they do not, but here is the difficulty with how habte and gebre been portraying themselves as Rastafarians. One day it is this the next day it’s another to the question what Rastafarianism is, the one that does not worship the emperor. What do they mean when they say The Lord Jehovah Rastafari ( JAh Rastafari!) who knows the definitions change every day as it fits their argument..
1  its only a Culture
2,t’s a spiritual movement not politics
3 it’s a spiritual and political movement
4 it’s a Liberation movement from sin
5 its orthodox spirituality.( liturgy, psalm of David)


So to conclude, When someone is blatantly preaching heresy, it is my duty to speak up, of course I can remain indifferent also, with my lukewarm existence this would not have been a surprise, however, I was not able to remain in my usual lukewarm state over this matter of Faith. Still I will not resort to the game of false piety in order to avoid direct and relevant questions like habte and gebre have been engaged in. it’s repulsive to me, it’s like lying against the Spirit and drinking death.  Those that must discern the valid points of discussion can do so by cutting through all the pomp. Those who are easily appeased and deceived by false piety that is without the True Faith, then they see as they see. I have always been taught that true piety will have to be always accompanied with the True Faith, unblemished by human philosophies and sophistries.  In this thread there was much of that, and challenging it has only lead to perhaps scandalizing the young, making some utter erroneous statement on what is so important to the salvation of Mankind that the martyrs have given their very lives for it. I can only say  I will oppose the idea that the Spiritual and Political Cult Rastafarianism is in any form or shape Orthodox, no matter how many people say they are baptized into Orthodox Christianity, if they still hold on to the Rastafarianism as a spiritual guide in their lives then I say Anathema! I do not care if they hold on to it as a political view but even then it stands on a shaky ground as the whole Zionism is based on false interpretation of the Judeo-Christian Scripture. But that’s politics so it belongs to Cesar. However the Holy Spirit is the source of our spirituality in Orthodoxy and without it those who hold on to sophistries and  heretical human philosophies as the part and parcel of their Orthodox Spirituality we have a name for them .


I know the new age is something that embraces everything and everybody and that is considered the enlightened thing to do , the polite thing to do, or even the easier thing to do, because nothing matters, all are right, so long as they say peace and love, we are expected to say uhhh how cute you are orthodox too then because dude we are about peace and love too, but Thankfully Orthodoxy is the Faith of the Martyrs, the Faith that Established the Universe.

The other side of the coin is to say you are a sinner I am a sinner so let us not worry about these matters of Faith, after all how important can it be when compared to your sin or my sin. If I chose to worship in any way I want to worship , how can you who is not a saint with halloos talk to me about the Faith? I do not have to answer these questions about Faith, I repeat I am a sinner you are a sinner. With these attitudes the Nicene Creed would not have existed. And I for one will oppose it as vehemently as I can sorry it offends the sensibilities of some in here, but more energy is being invested in the court houses for matters of vanity by those who cared about them. Orthodoxy is everything to me. Personal affections I again or lose over it are really of matters of little consequence.



I will just add certain threads that this type of discussion has been going on and leave it at that, in all of them notice how the flip flop of its culture, no its politics, no its spirituality a liberation from sin not any political intent stuff like that. Also notice on how the attempt is continuously made to make the Rastafarian movement as pass as part of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition. How the bishops are being called a Rastafarian bishops by those whose interest it is to link this heresy with the teachings of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40748.0.html
this one too has some important information in it http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29329.0.html#top
this one is a private forum you need access code for it ask one of the moderators as to who to ask for the access http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42903.msg706112.html#msg706112



Finally as they say a word to the wise, so simply put, I know and support that there is a great effort by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church to evangelize all men into the Orthodox Faith. Especially those who carry the name of one of the Emperors of Ethiopia and have a philosophy that encompasses both spirituality and politics, the Church has given it as much attention as she could under the difficult historical and political circumstances she has found herself in. those sent by her have  done the best they could to preach the Gospel of our Lord and free men from their own grandiose delusions of false beliefs and blasphemies . those who remained by her Orthodox teachings are orthodox, those who have decided they can have it all and have continued to embrace their sophistries and heresies while declaring themselves orthodox, have anathemised themselves as the church have never taught nor will never teach such heretical human philosophies in place of her theology. She will never bow or confirm to the world and its ideas, rather she will transform the world into confirming to Christ the Victorious.

I am done with this thread, bras monkey will be happy to know as I have been raining on his parade by coming to his joint and disturbing the ‘peace’ so I will leave with my Peace. And brassmonkey if what is said above is like that tract to you, do what you would do with it and all things not worthy of your attention,  ignore it.But sorry for ruffling the feathers of those you deemed ‘Ok’ by you. Grin Grin
 
Peace. angel
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2012, 12:10:20 AM »

I must respectfully point out that sister Hiwot's diatribes against brother Habte and myself are based on gross misunderstandings and misinterpretations of what we actually believe. And as many times as we have corrected her false assumptions about our own beliefs and her erroneous undertanding of Rastafari, then I cannot help but think that her misrepresentations are intentional. I have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, a benefit which she refuses to extend to us. But I will continue to view her as my sister in Christ even though she casts aspersion on my Baptism and questions my Orthodox faith. I wish her well always.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2012, 12:44:14 AM »

Hey folks, we're all brothers and sisters in the faith right? That's kind of the only sense by which you're my brother, or Hiwot's my sister, or whatever. My brother lives in California and works as a drum technician for a 1980s stadium rock band.  Roll Eyes

So it is the faith that unites us. So that's what we argue about, sometimes. And in this thread, the argument is "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are compatible or in some sense complementary" or "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are not compatible or in some sense complementary". It's not about you or your personal commitment to Orthodoxy, or your baptism, or any of that other stuff. It's not personal at all, but that you feel it is because it's your thing (your political/social/musical movement or preference or hobby or whatever you see it as) that is being called into question concerning its acceptability within an Orthodox context. I'm not even going to say that this isn't a rational or understandable reaction, either; if I'm honest, I'd have to imagine that I would be ticked off or hurt if someone was telling me that I can't be Orthodox and a linguist, or Orthodox and an American, or Orthodox and a member of OC.net, or whatever. At the same time, none of those things have particular political, social, theological, pharmaceutical, or other positions connected to them that might even conflict with the faith in the first place.

Given that, let us please stop reacting as though there is some kind of unique persecution faced by the Rastas here that is somehow connected to your persons and not questions regarding the ideas you express. If this thread was all about how you like wearing Bob Marley t-shirts and those Rastafarian hats and listening to Peter Tosh or whoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're having this conversation because some of the ideas expressed in this thread are troubling to other people who are not Rastafarian.

As I always love to quote (from HH Pope Shenouda III), we fight against ideas, not people. No one is against you here, Gebre and Habte and whoever else identifies as Rastafarian. Some people are, however, against the association of Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism as has been expressed in this thread and others by those claiming to belong to both communities.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2012, 01:56:17 AM »

Hey folks, we're all brothers and sisters in the faith right? That's kind of the only sense by which you're my brother, or Hiwot's my sister, or whatever. My brother lives in California and works as a drum technician for a 1980s stadium rock band.  Roll Eyes

So it is the faith that unites us. So that's what we argue about, sometimes. And in this thread, the argument is "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are compatible or in some sense complementary" or "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are not compatible or in some sense complementary". It's not about you or your personal commitment to Orthodoxy, or your baptism, or any of that other stuff. It's not personal at all, but that you feel it is because it's your thing (your political/social/musical movement or preference or hobby or whatever you see it as) that is being called into question concerning its acceptability within an Orthodox context. I'm not even going to say that this isn't a rational or understandable reaction, either; if I'm honest, I'd have to imagine that I would be ticked off or hurt if someone was telling me that I can't be Orthodox and a linguist, or Orthodox and an American, or Orthodox and a member of OC.net, or whatever. At the same time, none of those things have particular political, social, theological, pharmaceutical, or other positions connected to them that might even conflict with the faith in the first place.

Given that, let us please stop reacting as though there is some kind of unique persecution faced by the Rastas here that is somehow connected to your persons and not questions regarding the ideas you express. If this thread was all about how you like wearing Bob Marley t-shirts and those Rastafarian hats and listening to Peter Tosh or whoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're having this conversation because some of the ideas expressed in this thread are troubling to other people who are not Rastafarian.

As I always love to quote (from HH Pope Shenouda III), we fight against ideas, not people. No one is against you here, Gebre and Habte and whoever else identifies as Rastafarian. Some people are, however, against the association of Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism as has been expressed in this thread and others by those claiming to belong to both communities.

I humbly reiterate that the problem is the deliberate misrepresentation of our views. That is not arguing or debating doctrine, that is simply dishonest venom spouted against one's fellow Orthodox brethren. I'll let Habte speak for himself, but I continue to defy anyone to show me where I have promoted or advocated the idolatry of emperor worship or any other false doctrines. I adhere and cling to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, period. But sister Hiwot refuses to accept that for some reason. So, I don't feel persecuted, just annoyed and saddened by it.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2012, 03:03:17 AM »

Hey folks, we're all brothers and sisters in the faith right? That's kind of the only sense by which you're my brother, or Hiwot's my sister, or whatever. My brother lives in California and works as a drum technician for a 1980s stadium rock band.  Roll Eyes

So it is the faith that unites us. So that's what we argue about, sometimes. And in this thread, the argument is "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are compatible or in some sense complementary" or "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are not compatible or in some sense complementary". It's not about you or your personal commitment to Orthodoxy, or your baptism, or any of that other stuff. It's not personal at all, but that you feel it is because it's your thing (your political/social/musical movement or preference or hobby or whatever you see it as) that is being called into question concerning its acceptability within an Orthodox context. I'm not even going to say that this isn't a rational or understandable reaction, either; if I'm honest, I'd have to imagine that I would be ticked off or hurt if someone was telling me that I can't be Orthodox and a linguist, or Orthodox and an American, or Orthodox and a member of OC.net, or whatever. At the same time, none of those things have particular political, social, theological, pharmaceutical, or other positions connected to them that might even conflict with the faith in the first place.

Given that, let us please stop reacting as though there is some kind of unique persecution faced by the Rastas here that is somehow connected to your persons and not questions regarding the ideas you express. If this thread was all about how you like wearing Bob Marley t-shirts and those Rastafarian hats and listening to Peter Tosh or whoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're having this conversation because some of the ideas expressed in this thread are troubling to other people who are not Rastafarian.

As I always love to quote (from HH Pope Shenouda III), we fight against ideas, not people. No one is against you here, Gebre and Habte and whoever else identifies as Rastafarian. Some people are, however, against the association of Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism as has been expressed in this thread and others by those claiming to belong to both communities.

I humbly reiterate that the problem is the deliberate misrepresentation of our views. That is not arguing or debating doctrine, that is simply dishonest venom spouted against one's fellow Orthodox brethren. I'll let Habte speak for himself, but I continue to defy anyone to show me where I have promoted or advocated the idolatry of emperor worship or any other false doctrines. I adhere and cling to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, period. But sister Hiwot refuses to accept that for some reason. So, I don't feel persecuted, just annoyed and saddened by it.


Selam

A point that has been made plenty of times, gebre, How can one wake someone who refuses to wake up? I am sure you can read though as do all of us here, so any serious christian who cares about the Gosple's message can read the disagrement is a disagrement of Faith by rereading the threadthe simple fact orthodox spirituality and rastafarianisim as spirituality zero compatibility, rastafarianisim is not only the emperor worship it goes deeper than that we all know. now your Jah rastafari!  songs and prayers not withstanding your defense of the orthodoxy of heterodox songs and singers such as bob Marley prior to his being baptized , elevating him to that of modern day psalmist one with your poster equated him to the Holy  Prophet of the Lord David,not withstanding you can go back and read what prompted our argument, if we agree as you say in faith.at this point how can I go back on to this never ending denial you have buried yourself in out of ego and not lack of knowledge. so at this point listen and listen well...What is given to me I have tried to give to you it was rejected so I am forever going to hold my peace over your ( habtes and yours) rastafarianisim as it relates to orthodox Christianity, all my hopes of correcting you are now gone. As the Holy Trinity is my witness my heart was never moved by hate or malice towards you or habte, I only wished to correct your twisted ways and attachments to your Rastafarianisim that you both confess is a spiritual movement you joined even while not being required to worship the emperor, there was the other spirituality that you have found plausible and that you still do and continue to deceive yourself saying its spiritual philosophy is compatible with orthodoxy. if you do not wish to correct your ways I am not God who can make it happen. However know this, my peace has returned to me, I take nothing of yours. I promise you I will not post any longer over here,say or call me anything you like my brother, To God be the Glory in all things!
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2012, 03:03:12 AM »

A charge of heresy is a very serious charge; more serious than a charge of theft or adultery even--if we are to take one particular aphorism from the Desert Fathers seriously...
 
From what I've read from both HabteSelassie and GMK, I don't think it's fair to accuse either of them of heresy.
 
Whether or not their interpretations of various aspects or expressions of "Rastafarianism" are credible or legitimate, the interpretations themselves are not heretical as far as I can honestly tell.

This is the point I made in HS' defence of his support for the song that is the subject of this thread (a point which he somehow completely missed given the nature of his response), and I think the point serves well to come to the defence of any personal adoption and adaptation of any given aspect of Rastafarian culture--subject to conditions.

One main condition that comes to mind relates to St Paul's various remarks about being careful to not do or say something that might either cause scandal or be a stumbling block to others—even if there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

If the prevalent acceptance and understanding of something is of an heretical nature, such that an Orthodox Christian's engagement with it should in effect encourage such heretical acceptance and understanding by others, or should scandalise the Church at large, then he/she should abandon such a thing in the greater interests of Truth.

The Orthodox Faith should always be the subject of our supreme allegiance. Human cultures have and maintain spiritual integrity only as far as they serve and promote the Faith.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2012, 03:31:45 AM »

I humbly reiterate that the problem is the deliberate misrepresentation of our views. That is not arguing or debating doctrine, that is simply dishonest venom spouted against one's fellow Orthodox brethren. I'll let Habte speak for himself, but I continue to defy anyone to show me where I have promoted or advocated the idolatry of emperor worship or any other false doctrines. I adhere and cling to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, period. But sister Hiwot refuses to accept that for some reason. So, I don't feel persecuted, just annoyed and saddened by it.


Selam

Selam, Gebre.

Please forgive me, I missed this before. Without making it into something personal between you and Hiwot (since, again, I insist that this is not a personal matter, though I can respect that it probably feels personal), I want to reiterate what I said in the post you are replying to here: The source of disagreement boils down to whether or not we share the idea that Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism are compatible. Any additional issues regarding misrepresentation of views particular to this thread can and should be set aside to answer this very simple and central question on which all of this conflict hinges.

I have to believe that those who identify on this messageboard as both Orthodox and Rastafarian do believe that the two are compatible or complementary in some way, or else they would not identify as they do. The individual's method of demonstrating or living that is up to him (I recognize that not all Rastafarians believe the exact same things), but that is of no consequence to those who believe to the contrary -- that Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism are not acceptable complements of one another, whether in the individual or as a general comment on Rastafarianism's points of similarity or difference with Orthodoxy.

So I regret having posted as I previously did about the "ideas that you express", because the more I think about it the less this is about that. If we could be saved from charges of heresy or unorthodoxy by appealing to our own understandings of our own arguments, then there probably wouldn't be any grounds for charges of heresy or unorthodoxy to begin with (which is not to say that I support any particular charge, of course). The trouble is, of course, that we non-Rastafarians cannot occupy your heads and find out what you really mean and how it's really Orthodox. Chances are even if we could do the first, we might not find the second to be the case. But again, that doesn't matter, because our own personal interpretations of things amount to not a hill of beans. If Rastafarianism were Orthodox, it would be Orthodoxy. It's not, as I'm sure you'd agree. The question of how much you might be able to include before crossing some threshold into heterodoxy is something well beyond the likes of me, but again for me that is another reason why I would stay well away from it. Uncontroversially Orthodox practices and beliefs are enough of a challenge to conform myself to.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as more "guy who doesn't understand is unwilling to listen, yet writes an essay about it". I don't mean to, of course; I just don't see the much-touted misunderstanding being all on the side of the anti-Rastafarianism section of this discussion. I will of course take my own share of blame for this, but I think the nature of the disagreement is also being mischaracterized.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2012, 01:43:05 PM »

Thank you both for the reasonable thougts EkhristosAnesti and dzheremi.


This is what I posted on Facebook the other day:

"When Rastafari is recognized as true adherence to the teachings of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, then it inevitably leads to authentic Orthodox Tewahedo Christian Truth. But if Rastafari is defined as a purely subjective ‘spirituality’ that allows for beliefs and ideas that diametrically oppose Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, then it often leads people away from the Truth and into demonic errors. However, before we pass judgment on misguided Rastas, let us not forget that there are many more misguided ‘Christians’ who teach heresies in the very name of Our Lord.”


"Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him." [Acts 10:34-35]


"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."  [St. Matthew 12:50]




Selam


« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 01:43:17 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2012, 02:41:18 PM »

"When Rastafari is recognized as true adherence to the teachings of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, then it inevitably leads to authentic Orthodox Tewahedo Christian Truth.

What does this mean? How about the teachings of Christ?  Cut out the middle man.

You do yourself no favors.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 02:41:58 PM by Cognomen » Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »

"When Rastafari is recognized as true adherence to the teachings of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, then it inevitably leads to authentic Orthodox Tewahedo Christian Truth.

What does this mean? How about the teachings of Christ?  Cut out the middle man.

You do yourself no favors.


Do you not realize that many if not most Orthodox Christians come to a knowledge of the Faith through many different paths, experiences, and struggles? Perhaps you should tell God to cut out the middle man.

I have a great desire to see my Rasta brothers who are still misguidedly worshipping the Emperor come to the true Orthodox Faith. What better instruments to lead these Rastas away from idoaltry and into the Tewahedo fold than the very words of His Majesty who they worship and the very Bible that they adore?

I don't need to do myself any favors here. I am mercifully accepted by Christ and His Church, so whether or not you or others accept me is not my concern.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2012, 03:02:10 PM »

It is certainly true that many come to faith through various heresies or otherwise unorthodox belief systems. I was Roman Catholic before becoming Orthodox, and I do not think that I would have been prepared to properly appreciate Orthodoxy had it not been for my time in the Roman Catholic Church. So I am eternally thankful to the RCC for that. However, when it came time for me to be baptized into the true faith, I renounced my former errors and allegiances completely, just as any candidate must do (it's right there in the text of the baptismal service). I do not call myself Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I wish that all calling themselves Rastafarian would see a useful parallel in this.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2012, 03:17:11 PM »

It is certainly true that many come to faith through various heresies or otherwise unorthodox belief systems. I was Roman Catholic before becoming Orthodox, and I do not think that I would have been prepared to properly appreciate Orthodoxy had it not been for my time in the Roman Catholic Church. So I am eternally thankful to the RCC for that. However, when it came time for me to be baptized into the true faith, I renounced my former errors and allegiances completely, just as any candidate must do (it's right there in the text of the baptismal service). I do not call myself Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I wish that all calling themselves Rastafarian would see a useful parallel in this.


Ahh, yes... but do you not recite the Creed and confess One holy, catholic, apostolic Church?  Wink


I cling to no heresies brother. I too renounced any and all heresies at my baptism. So that's why I take issue with those who are attempting to accuse me of heresy and idolatry based upon their misunderstanding of Rastafari.

It would be like me condemning an Arabic speaking Christian for referring to God as "Allah," and accusing him of being a terrorist.


Selam
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 03:17:34 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2012, 03:40:36 PM »

Ahh, yes... but do you not recite the Creed and confess One holy, catholic, apostolic Church?  Wink

Always, my friend. I didn't give up being catholic. Rome did.

Quote
I cling to no heresies brother. I too renounced any and all heresies at my baptism. So that's why I take issue with those who are attempting to accuse me of heresy and idolatry based upon their misunderstanding of Rastafari.

As I stated in my hopefully clarified post, the distinction to be made is not in what you personally see Rastafari as standing for (as it is not right that any of us should make up our own Orthodoxy), but whether or not Rastafarianism is compatible with Orthodoxy. It is easy to try to make whatever we want to believe fit in with the Apostolic faith. Speaking of Rome...I have been through more than enough time in a church that does this. "Oh, look! St. Irenaeus said this in the second century, therefore ROME ROME ROME ROME ROME." Nope. Doesn't fly. The Orthodox faith is what Christ our God taught, and the Apostles taught from Him. It is not that plus whatever we personally feel is compatible with it by a selective and fanciful reading or reduction of the Fathers or any other aspect of the faith. That is a Protestant way of viewing the faith, and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Quote
It would be like me condemning an Arabic speaking Christian for referring to God as "Allah," and accusing him of being a terrorist.

Just like the last time you brought this up, this doesn't make sense. We were using the word "Allah" before Muhammad and his spiritual descendents ever existed. Who was using "Jah Rastafari" or espousing Rastafarianism before Ras Tafari/Haile Selassie existed? Nobody. It dates back to the 1930s, at most. The Orthodox faith, on the other hand, established the universe. Hence the choice seems clear to me, and it does not look good for those who claim to be both Orthodox and Rastafarian.

You claim to be interpreting Rastafarianism in a correct, orthodox fashion, and I don't doubt that (mostly because I don't care about it on its own, only when it is claimed to be compatible with Orthodoxy), but I don't see a lot of care for how Orthodoxy is handled in the process. This is the problem we are having, not that we are not we are somehow misunderstanding Rastafarianism, as though that is the concern here (it isn't). Once again, I think the nature of our disagreement is not being fully appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 03:42:10 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2012, 03:52:59 PM »

Ahh, yes... but do you not recite the Creed and confess One holy, catholic, apostolic Church?  Wink

Always, my friend. I didn't give up being catholic. Rome did.

Quote
I cling to no heresies brother. I too renounced any and all heresies at my baptism. So that's why I take issue with those who are attempting to accuse me of heresy and idolatry based upon their misunderstanding of Rastafari.

As I stated in my hopefully clarified post, the distinction to be made is not in what you personally see Rastafari as standing for (as it is not right that any of us should make up our own Orthodoxy), but whether or not Rastafarianism is compatible with Orthodoxy. It is easy to try to make whatever we want to believe fit in with the Apostolic faith. Speaking of Rome...I have been through more than enough time in a church that does this. "Oh, look! St. Irenaeus said this in the second century, therefore ROME ROME ROME ROME ROME." Nope. Doesn't fly. The Orthodox faith is what Christ our God taught, and the Apostles taught from Him. It is not that plus whatever we personally feel is compatible with it by a selective and fanciful reading or reduction of the Fathers or any other aspect of the faith. That is a Protestant way of viewing the faith, and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Quote
It would be like me condemning an Arabic speaking Christian for referring to God as "Allah," and accusing him of being a terrorist.

Just like the last time you brought this up, this doesn't make sense. We were using the word "Allah" before Muhammad and his spiritual descendents ever existed. Who was using "Jah Rastafari" or espousing Rastafarianism before Ras Tafari/Haile Selassie existed? Nobody. It dates back to the 1930s, at most. The Orthodox faith, on the other hand, established the universe. Hence the choice seems clear to me, and it does not look good for those who claim to be both Orthodox and Rastafarian.

You claim to be interpreting Rastafarianism in a correct, orthodox fashion, and I don't doubt that (mostly because I don't care about it on its own, only when it is claimed to be compatible with Orthodoxy), but I don't see a lot of care for how Orthodoxy is handled in the process. This is the problem we are having, not that we are not we are somehow misunderstanding Rastafarianism, as though that is the concern here (it isn't). Once again, I think the nature of our disagreement is not being fully appreciated.

What confuses me is why some of you keep preaching to the choir. I think my frequent posts on this forum fully demonstrate my commitment Orthodox truth. To clarify this discussion and keep it from becoming further muddled, let me just ask you and others to point out any heretical ideas that you think I am espousing. Otherwise, why fight against ourselves?

I think the "Allah" comparison is quite accurate for analogy. It is not the word that is heretical, but who one means when they invoke it and how one inteprets the term. Same with "JAH" and "Rastafari."

Anyway, like I said, if you or others think I am advocating heresy, please point out my words which you think are heretical and then we can discuss or clarify it. Fair enouogh?



Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2012, 04:26:32 PM »

Again, it is not your individual words (at least not that I can see in this thread). It is this idea that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible that I disagree with. That is wrong as a concept, in and of itself. You could say "but Rastafarianism doesn't mean what you think it means; it means _____ (your own idea of what Rastafarianism is), which is totally Orthodox", and I would say fine, okay, but all that means is that you have found a way to stop the cognitive dissonance of believing in two things that you KNOW are not the same thing. Like I wrote earlier, if Rastafarianism were Orthodox, it would be Orthodoxy. We wouldn't call it Rastafarianism anymore. It wouldn't be its own thing. But it is its own thing, maybe not because of what you personally believe (e.g., how some Rastafarians believe that Haile Selassie is God, but you don't), but because others believe those things. It is, in a way, comparable to the insertion of the filioque clause into the Creed. Having been Roman Catholic for some time, I was used to saying it, and familiar with the arguments that it is Orthodox or could be understood in an Orthodox manner (some of which have been made even by EO, such as Bp. Kallistos Ware). Notwithstanding those points, I would not dare to bring it into the Orthodox faith, just because there is some way in which it can be justified by reference to certain particular understandings of it. Again, unambiguously Orthodox things do not need such special justification, as they do not cause problems. It is only when someone knows that their idea might not be acceptable that they have to say "oh, but I don't believe in X like those people, I believe in Y so it's okay." It's not okay. Our fathers and masters the apostles preached one faith, and one faith only. We adhere to that one faith, without confusion or alteration. If not, in what sense can we call ourselves Orthodox? Sure, we may have been baptized, but there were many who were baptized who later decided to follow something else (Montanism, Origenism, etc.), so what does their baptism say for them? That they once believed. But we don't want to be once believers, right? We believe forever in the faith that was handed down from God Himself, through the apostles and those who they ordained to lead His holy Church down to this very day.

I am discounting your baptism, only saying that it's not some kind of magical shield that will keep you from believing in wrong things. We must work to maintain our Orthodox faith every day. I would not want to have to try to do that with the weight of a belief system that is mired in heresy (even if I were one of the "good" Rastafarians, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) when it is really not necessary. We have Orthodoxy, which is whole and complete already without the attachment of any other thing.

If I recall correctly, Habte recently posted the following amusing picture:



I would say something similar to anyone who claims to be Rastafarian and Orthodox. You are not enhancing Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy cannot be enhanced. There is nothing better out there. It does not need Rastafarianism to be attractive to Jamaicans, though of course many may enter into it through that, and in that I think Rastafarianism can be useful for them just as Roman Catholicism was useful for me. But once you are through that door, it should remain shut forever. To open it again or to keep it open just creates the temptation for people to bring anything through it, thinking that they may keep it and be Orthodox, and even worse a person might waver, going in and out, or stand with one foot in and one foot out, never being completely comfortable in the one faith.

Think about it, Gebre. Think about the many, many hours that we have spent in conversation about this issue. It seems an unnecessary distraction at best, and at worst it is hurting everyone.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2012, 08:12:53 PM »

Again, it is not your individual words (at least not that I can see in this thread). It is this idea that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible that I disagree with. That is wrong as a concept, in and of itself. You could say "but Rastafarianism doesn't mean what you think it means; it means _____ (your own idea of what Rastafarianism is), which is totally Orthodox", and I would say fine, okay, but all that means is that you have found a way to stop the cognitive dissonance of believing in two things that you KNOW are not the same thing. Like I wrote earlier, if Rastafarianism were Orthodox, it would be Orthodoxy. We wouldn't call it Rastafarianism anymore. It wouldn't be its own thing. But it is its own thing, maybe not because of what you personally believe (e.g., how some Rastafarians believe that Haile Selassie is God, but you don't), but because others believe those things. It is, in a way, comparable to the insertion of the filioque clause into the Creed. Having been Roman Catholic for some time, I was used to saying it, and familiar with the arguments that it is Orthodox or could be understood in an Orthodox manner (some of which have been made even by EO, such as Bp. Kallistos Ware). Notwithstanding those points, I would not dare to bring it into the Orthodox faith, just because there is some way in which it can be justified by reference to certain particular understandings of it. Again, unambiguously Orthodox things do not need such special justification, as they do not cause problems. It is only when someone knows that their idea might not be acceptable that they have to say "oh, but I don't believe in X like those people, I believe in Y so it's okay." It's not okay. Our fathers and masters the apostles preached one faith, and one faith only. We adhere to that one faith, without confusion or alteration. If not, in what sense can we call ourselves Orthodox? Sure, we may have been baptized, but there were many who were baptized who later decided to follow something else (Montanism, Origenism, etc.), so what does their baptism say for them? That they once believed. But we don't want to be once believers, right? We believe forever in the faith that was handed down from God Himself, through the apostles and those who they ordained to lead His holy Church down to this very day.

I am discounting your baptism, only saying that it's not some kind of magical shield that will keep you from believing in wrong things. We must work to maintain our Orthodox faith every day. I would not want to have to try to do that with the weight of a belief system that is mired in heresy (even if I were one of the "good" Rastafarians, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) when it is really not necessary. We have Orthodoxy, which is whole and complete already without the attachment of any other thing.

If I recall correctly, Habte recently posted the following amusing picture:



I would say something similar to anyone who claims to be Rastafarian and Orthodox. You are not enhancing Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy cannot be enhanced. There is nothing better out there. It does not need Rastafarianism to be attractive to Jamaicans, though of course many may enter into it through that, and in that I think Rastafarianism can be useful for them just as Roman Catholicism was useful for me. But once you are through that door, it should remain shut forever. To open it again or to keep it open just creates the temptation for people to bring anything through it, thinking that they may keep it and be Orthodox, and even worse a person might waver, going in and out, or stand with one foot in and one foot out, never being completely comfortable in the one faith.

Think about it, Gebre. Think about the many, many hours that we have spent in conversation about this issue. It seems an unnecessary distraction at best, and at worst it is hurting everyone.


His Majesty encouraged us to emphasize all areas of agreement, which is what I shall continue to do. I have a heart to see all my Rasta brethren enter into the Orthodox Tewahedo fold. I doubt that many will be led to the faith by mischaracterizations, uncharitable judgments, and disdain. I have never claimed that Rastafari is Orthodoxy, in spite of how some people wish to skew my views. I trust you mean well, and I can only reiterate that I will defend Orthodox doctrine and truth to my dying breath.

That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers. Somehow such foolishness is not only condoned but advocated by many Orthodox Christians, while proclaiming the divine and bilblical name of "JAH" is condemned as heretical. (And just to clarify, neither Habte nor myself has in any way advocated that elements of Rastafarian music, lingo, or culture should be equated with or incorporated into the Litrugical life of the Church.)

So, I will continue to love my Rasta brethren uncondtionally while gently and boldly proclaiming the Teachings and Traditions of Orthodoxy to them. Others can write them off as hopeless pagans and idolaters, but I will never do such a thing. And if my love and embrace of those aspects of the Rastafarian lifestlye and philosophy which correlate with Orthodox truth is condemned as heretical by uninformed Christians, then so be it. Like I said, it makes me sad, but I trust God with my judgment.

At this point I think we have reached an impasse regarding this issue. I don't wish it to descend into negativity and confusion (any more than it already has.) I have no doubt that everyone who has posted on this thread is committed to Orthodox doctrine and truth. Thus, let us love one another and give each other the benefit of the doubt.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2012, 08:28:49 PM »

That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

Quote
Somehow such foolishness is not only condoned but advocated by many Orthodox Christians, while proclaiming the divine and bilblical name of "JAH" is condemned as heretical.


Jah is not heretical (though I was under the impression that we are not to pronounce the tetragrammaton, and also for phonological reasons relating to Hebrew, "Jah" would not be a possible pronunciation/abbreviation to begin with). "Jah Rastafari" is.

Quote
(And just to clarify, neither Habte nor myself has in any way advocated that elements of Rastafarian music, lingo, or culture should be equated with or incorporated into the Litrugical life of the Church.)


Fair enough, but by advocating that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible, this is still problematic. Going to back to my filioque example: I would not be able to proclaim the filioque as acceptable and Orthodox, then retreat to the idea that I am not advocating that it be incorporated into the liturgical life of the Church, so it's okay. This is in fact what Rome claims about its Eastern compatriots in the Eastern Catholic Churches. It doesn't hold water there, and that same reasoning certainly doesn't hold water elsewhere. Again, we fight against ideas, not people.

Quote
So, I will continue to love my Rasta brethren uncondtionally while gently and boldly proclaiming the Teachings and Traditions of Orthodoxy to them. Others can write them off as hopeless pagans and idolaters, but I will never do such a thing. And if my love and embrace of those aspects of the Rastafarian lifestlye and philosophy which correlate with Orthodox truth is condemned as heretical by uninformed Christians, then so be it. Like I said, it makes me sad, but I trust God with my judgment.

Nobody is saying don't love Rastafarians, or that ANYONE is a hopeless pagan or idolator. That's just silly. If that's what you got out of a measured attempt to explain the nature of our disagreement (without calling anyone a pagan or hopeless or anything of the sort; read it again), then I don't know what to say.

Quote
At this point I think we have reached an impasse regarding this issue.

I'm afraid you are right, and I probably should not have contributed to this thread, or any threads on this subject. At this point, my stance is well known and apparently further clarification or explanation is taken as condemnation of people, which is certainly not something I want associated with my posting. So I'll be unsubscribing to this thread now. Peace.
Logged

dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2012, 08:31:09 PM »

Oops. Except, that is, to say that I left out a very crucial word in post #75. I meant to say that I am NOT discounting your baptism...I know you probably already understood it that way, since without that word the subsequent clause makes no sense at all, but...dang, that sort of thing still bugs me. My apologies. Embarrassed
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2012, 08:46:42 PM »

That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

Again, I have never ever come close to arguing that Rastafari is Orthodoxy. People keep trying to make me say something I have never come close to saying.[/quote]

Quote
Somehow such foolishness is not only condoned but advocated by many Orthodox Christians, while proclaiming the divine and bilblical name of "JAH" is condemned as heretical.
Jah is not heretical (though I was under the impression that we are not to pronounce the tetragrammaton, and also for phonological reasons relating to Hebrew, "Jah" would not be a possible pronunciation/abbreviation to begin with). "Jah Rastafari" is.

That is your opinion, which again is based on certain assumptions of interpretation that are not necessarily applicable across the board. The etymology of this has already been discussed in detail, so I won't delve back into it here. Suffice it to say that not everyone who exlaims "JAH! Rastafari!" is worshipping the Emperor.


Quote
(And just to clarify, neither Habte nor myself has in any way advocated that elements of Rastafarian music, lingo, or culture should be equated with or incorporated into the Litrugical life of the Church.)

Fair enough, but by advocating that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible, this is still problematic. Going to back to my filioque example: I would not be able to proclaim the filioque as acceptable and Orthodox, then retreat to the idea that I am not advocating that it be incorporated into the liturgical life of the Church, so it's okay. This is in fact what Rome claims about its Eastern compatriots in the Eastern Catholic Churches. It doesn't hold water there, and that same reasoning certainly doesn't hold water elsewhere. Again, we fight against ideas, not people.

The filioque has been clearly condemned by the Church. But as far as I know, being a vegetarian and a pacifist, proclaiming the brotherhood of man, believing in the Holy Bible, and adhering to a pure monotheism are not condemned by the Church.

Quote
So, I will continue to love my Rasta brethren uncondtionally while gently and boldly proclaiming the Teachings and Traditions of Orthodoxy to them. Others can write them off as hopeless pagans and idolaters, but I will never do such a thing. And if my love and embrace of those aspects of the Rastafarian lifestlye and philosophy which correlate with Orthodox truth is condemned as heretical by uninformed Christians, then so be it. Like I said, it makes me sad, but I trust God with my judgment.
Nobody is saying don't love Rastafarians, or that ANYONE is a hopeless pagan or idolator. That's just silly. If that's what you got out of a measured attempt to explain the nature of our disagreement (without calling anyone a pagan or hopeless or anything of the sort; read it again), then I don't know what to say.

I'm glad to hear that. But not everyone feels the same way, unfortunately.

Quote
At this point I think we have reached an impasse regarding this issue.
I'm afraid you are right, and I probably should not have contributed to this thread, or any threads on this subject. At this point, my stance is well known and apparently further clarification or explanation is taken as condemnation of people, which is certainly not something I want associated with my posting. So I'll be unsubscribing to this thread now. Peace.

Peace to you as well my brother.



Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2012, 09:37:36 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus on Today at 08:12:53 PM
That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

I think the point he indirectly implies is very relevant to this discussion. I'll translate it and elaborate upon it in my own way as I understand it:

Human beings do not exist in the abstract, but inevitably subsist in and through a complex matrix of human cultures. Whether consciously or not, we all assume and express ourselves through various facets of such cultures. The personally customised process of adoption and rejection of those various facets is what ultimately make up each person’s individuality.

To take this point one step further: Orthodox Christians do not exist in the abstract. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I am one who is, a) born to Egyptian parents, b) baptised and raised in the Coptic Church, c) a second generation Australian, d) a practitioner in the field of X, and, e) a member of the sport Y.

Each of these identities relates to a corresponding culture—with some or all of the following elements: rituals, beliefs, general attitudes and dispositions, moral codes of conduct, accepted/encouraged standards of behaviour and speech, etc. Each culture primarily operates in differing contexts, but they all make up who I am depending on how I engage with them. Ultimately, and whether consciously or not, I necessarily engage with them—either positively or negatively. Some facets of these cultures are conducive to my internalisation and expression of Orthodoxy, whilst others are not. Ideally, in engaging with such cultures I would do so in a way that allows me to identify more with those that are most conducive as such, and less with those that are least or simply not conducive as such.

If I were to paraphrase GMK's point in a way that might seem more directly relevant to this discussion (and he can correct me if he thinks I've misrepresented his sentiments), it would be as follows:

"You're all making a big fuss about my claim to being a Rastafarian and an Orthodox Christian because some elements typically associated with Rastafarian culture might be at odds with the Faith. Yet none of you are making any big deal about the idea of being American and Orthodox Christian, even though certain elements typically associated with American culture are at odds with the Faith. And if your response in defence to that is, "well, I am an American, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my American culture which are at odds with my Faith", then why can't I defend my being a Rastafarian by similiarly responding, "well, I am a Rastafarian, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my Rastafarian culture which are at odds with my faith."
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 09:40:41 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2012, 10:02:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus on Today at 08:12:53 PM
That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

I think the point he indirectly implies is very relevant to this discussion. I'll translate it and elaborate upon it in my own way as I understand it:

Human beings do not exist in the abstract, but inevitably subsist in and through a complex matrix of human cultures. Whether consciously or not, we all assume and express ourselves through various facets of such cultures. The personally customised process of adoption and rejection of those various facets is what ultimately make up each person’s individuality.

To take this point one step further: Orthodox Christians do not exist in the abstract. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I am one who is, a) born to Egyptian parents, b) baptised and raised in the Coptic Church, c) a second generation Australian, d) a practitioner in the field of X, and, e) a member of the sport Y.

Each of these identities relates to a corresponding culture—with some or all of the following elements: rituals, beliefs, general attitudes and dispositions, moral codes of conduct, accepted/encouraged standards of behaviour and speech, etc. Each culture primarily operates in differing contexts, but they all make up who I am depending on how I engage with them. Ultimately, and whether consciously or not, I necessarily engage with them—either positively or negatively. Some facets of these cultures are conducive to my internalisation and expression of Orthodoxy, whilst others are not. Ideally, in engaging with such cultures I would do so in a way that allows me to identify more with those that are most conducive as such, and less with those that are least or simply not conducive as such.

If I were to paraphrase GMK's point in a way that might seem more directly relevant to this discussion (and he can correct me if he thinks I've misrepresented his sentiments), it would be as follows:

"You're all making a big fuss about my claim to being a Rastafarian and an Orthodox Christian because some elements typically associated with Rastafarian culture might be at odds with the Faith. Yet none of you are making any big deal about the idea of being American and Orthodox Christian, even though certain elements typically associated with American culture are at odds with the Faith. And if your response in defence to that is, "well, I am an American, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my American culture which are at odds with my Faith", then why can't I defend my being a Rastafarian by similiarly responding, "well, I am a Rastafarian, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my Rastafarian culture which are at odds with my faith."

+1

Bingo.  This is a matter of culture.  Orthodox is a Faith, not necessarily a culture, though to be sure, it has her own cultural elements as well.  Rastafari is not inherently a faith, there is too much plurality and diversity of views in this theological regard, rather, Rastafari is a culture, and when brothers like Gebre Menfes Kidus or myself speak of ourselves and Rastafari, we are, culturally speaking.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 10:03:51 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2012, 12:22:16 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus on Today at 08:12:53 PM
That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

I think the point he indirectly implies is very relevant to this discussion. I'll translate it and elaborate upon it in my own way as I understand it:

Human beings do not exist in the abstract, but inevitably subsist in and through a complex matrix of human cultures. Whether consciously or not, we all assume and express ourselves through various facets of such cultures. The personally customised process of adoption and rejection of those various facets is what ultimately make up each person’s individuality.

To take this point one step further: Orthodox Christians do not exist in the abstract. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I am one who is, a) born to Egyptian parents, b) baptised and raised in the Coptic Church, c) a second generation Australian, d) a practitioner in the field of X, and, e) a member of the sport Y.

Each of these identities relates to a corresponding culture—with some or all of the following elements: rituals, beliefs, general attitudes and dispositions, moral codes of conduct, accepted/encouraged standards of behaviour and speech, etc. Each culture primarily operates in differing contexts, but they all make up who I am depending on how I engage with them. Ultimately, and whether consciously or not, I necessarily engage with them—either positively or negatively. Some facets of these cultures are conducive to my internalisation and expression of Orthodoxy, whilst others are not. Ideally, in engaging with such cultures I would do so in a way that allows me to identify more with those that are most conducive as such, and less with those that are least or simply not conducive as such.

If I were to paraphrase GMK's point in a way that might seem more directly relevant to this discussion (and he can correct me if he thinks I've misrepresented his sentiments), it would be as follows:

"You're all making a big fuss about my claim to being a Rastafarian and an Orthodox Christian because some elements typically associated with Rastafarian culture might be at odds with the Faith. Yet none of you are making any big deal about the idea of being American and Orthodox Christian, even though certain elements typically associated with American culture are at odds with the Faith. And if your response in defence to that is, "well, I am an American, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my American culture which are at odds with my Faith", then why can't I defend my being a Rastafarian by similiarly responding, "well, I am a Rastafarian, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my Rastafarian culture which are at odds with my faith."

+1

Bingo.  This is a matter of culture.  Orthodox is a Faith, not necessarily a culture, though to be sure, it has her own cultural elements as well.  Rastafari is not inherently a faith, there is too much plurality and diversity of views in this theological regard, rather, Rastafari is a culture, and when brothers like Gebre Menfes Kidus or myself speak of ourselves and Rastafari, we are, culturally speaking.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


+2

Yes Ekhristos, you summarized my position well.

Amen Habte.



Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2012, 01:21:35 AM »

Great song by a Rastafarian Ethiopian Christian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM8I7-uA3PY&feature=share



Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2012, 01:57:40 AM »

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo hermit/ bahitawi never says Jesus is black, never says moses is black, never says King David is black. the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, rejects racial political motivated distortions of the Catholic Faith. the Savior of the World Jesus Christ is born of the Virgin Mary A Hebrew of Hebrews, keeper of the Law and the Prophets, daughter of King David, daughter of the Glorious and Holy Patriarchs Abraham Isaac and Israel. the Bahitawi rejected the world and its monarchies for the kingdom of God only. the Bahitawi servers no monarch or monarchy but only God. Bahitawi opens his mouth to speak the kingdom of God alone not to advocate the kingdom of men.

what others say is their business and upon their heads, I speak because those holy ones who witness the Faith with their life are not here and I the arrogant sinner only have my words to offer in wittiness of their impeccable Orthodox Faith and Life. Lord forgive me I have failed them each time,  Cry may the Paraclete fill what is lacking from my weakness and be their wittiness in the hearts of men He resides in.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2012, 03:56:34 AM »

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo hermit/ bahitawi never says Jesus is black, never says moses is black, never says King David is black. the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, rejects racial political motivated distortions of the Catholic Faith. the Savior of the World Jesus Christ is born of the Virgin Mary A Hebrew of Hebrews, keeper of the Law and the Prophets, daughter of King David, daughter of the Glorious and Holy Patriarchs Abraham Isaac and Israel. the Bahitawi rejected the world and its monarchies for the kingdom of God only. the Bahitawi servers no monarch or monarchy but only God. Bahitawi opens his mouth to speak the kingdom of God alone not to advocate the kingdom of men.

what others say is their business and upon their heads, I speak because those holy ones who witness the Faith with their life are not here and I the arrogant sinner only have my words to offer in wittiness of their impeccable Orthodox Faith and Life. Lord forgive me I have failed them each time,  Cry may the Paraclete fill what is lacking from my weakness and be their wittiness in the hearts of men He resides in.




Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2012, 01:54:07 AM »

GMK,

It seems to me that your response is more of a legitimate criticism of Haile Yes-Us, the singer you've introduced into this thread as an example of a Rastafarian Ethiopian Christian, than it is of Hiwot.

If it matters not what colour Jesus was, why does this man feel the need to rejoice in the idea that the Ethiopian Church celebrates a Black Jesus ("The Bahatawee make me happy, when they say Jesus Christ is black...")? I don't think Hiwot is essentially saying anything more than, "sorry, but this is not true; the Ethiopian Church does not teach that Jesus is black, so please do not appeal to the Church as an authority for this false assumption." Surely that is a reasonable response from her?

How is the idea of a black Jesus understood within Rastafarian spirituality? From my brief research it seems that for some prominent Rastafarians (e.g. Sam Brown, Emmanuel Edwards, Mortimer Planno) it is intimately tied with the idea of the 'black race' being divinely ordained to reveal God to man in that they are privy to special insight to the divine which other races do not have, even though other races are welcome to embrace it. Connected to this idea seems to be other more clearly dangerous ideas that Christ was in fact reincarnate as a black man (i.e. Emperor Haile Selassie) and that he will be reincarnate once again as a black African.

Can there possibly be an Orthodox way of understanding Jesus to be black—perhaps some very loose, symbolic sense? If so, how widely is such an interpretation accepted within the Rastafarian community? If the heterodox understanding and implications of holding to the idea of a black Jesus predominate in the Rastafarian community, then I would think that this is one Rastafarian belief that ought to be abandoned upon embracing Orthodoxy for the sake of there being no confusion or ambiguity on the matter.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2012, 02:47:25 AM »

GMK,

It seems to me that your response is more of a legitimate criticism of Haile Yes-Us, the singer you've introduced into this thread as an example of a Rastafarian Ethiopian Christian, than it is of Hiwot.

If it matters not what colour Jesus was, why does this man feel the need to rejoice in the idea that the Ethiopian Church celebrates a Black Jesus ("The Bahatawee make me happy, when they say Jesus Christ is black...")? I don't think Hiwot is essentially saying anything more than, "sorry, but this is not true; the Ethiopian Church does not teach that Jesus is black, so please do not appeal to the Church as an authority for this false assumption." Surely that is a reasonable response from her?

How is the idea of a black Jesus understood within Rastafarian spirituality? From my brief research it seems that for some prominent Rastafarians (e.g. Sam Brown, Emmanuel Edwards, Mortimer Planno) it is intimately tied with the idea of the 'black race' being divinely ordained to reveal God to man in that they are privy to special insight to the divine which other races do not have, even though other races are welcome to embrace it. Connected to this idea seems to be other more clearly dangerous ideas that Christ was in fact reincarnate as a black man (i.e. Emperor Haile Selassie) and that he will be reincarnate once again as a black African.

Can there possibly be an Orthodox way of understanding Jesus to be black—perhaps some very loose, symbolic sense? If so, how widely is such an interpretation accepted within the Rastafarian community? If the heterodox understanding and implications of holding to the idea of a black Jesus predominate in the Rastafarian community, then I would think that this is one Rastafarian belief that ought to be abandoned upon embracing Orthodoxy for the sake of there being no confusion or ambiguity on the matter.


I wasn't trying to refute Hiwot. The quote I posted above with the icons was spoken by an Ethiopian Orthodox Priest. As for the video, I posted it simply to demonstrate the fact that there are Rastafarians who are Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. Maybe Hiwot would not attend Liturgy or worship with a Rastafarian Tewahedo Christian like those faithful, humble Christians in the video are doing. I don't know. As for this reggae artist's proclamation of Jesus being Black, I don't think there is anything heretical or unchristian about people seeing Christ through the lens of their own culture, as long as they do not corrupt sound doctrine. However, I have had many intense debates with some Rastas who say that they will not accept the Orthodox Faith until all "White" icons are removed from the Churches. I have made the same point to them as I have here, that while it is perfectly acceptable and reasonable to view Christ through one's own culture, it is not acceptable to make the color or race of Our Lord a point of prejudicial division. Again, I did not post the video as an endorsement of every aspect of the message, but simply to demonstrate the fact that there are indeed Rastas who are Orthodox Christians. If this brother is misguided about any aspect of Church Teaching, then let us pray for him to be enlightened and educated. I myself still have much to learn about the Faith, and I would be grieved if a brother or sister shunned me simply because I was not as learned as them.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2012, 10:13:47 PM »


the Acclaimed great song!

Was this what the Savior of the World the Word of the Father came to the world for? to make us happy because Jesus Christ Is black and his hair IS nappy!”

Was this the faith that the martyrs gave their life for? that ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!’?

Was this the orthodox Faith the Apostles taught ? that we need to rejoice because ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”? that Mosses Is Black and his hair Is nappy!’. “ David IS black and his hair Is nappy!, ‘Israel is black and their hair is Nappy!”

Was this the Faith that is the Reason of our Hope? That “ Jesus Christ is Black and his hair is nappy!”?

Was this the Faith that is the source of our joy ? that ‘ makes me happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”

Was this the covenant  between God and men that the Patriarchs kept with zeal , that  calls us to be “ happy because  David Is black and his hair is nappy!”

What did Saint Paul mean when he said Romans 9:1-33  “ I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. “ he must have meant , “be happy Israel is black and his hair is Nappy!”

Was this what the Apostle Matthew trying to tell us when he labored to write the genealogy of Our Lord? So that we will be happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy?

Perhaps there was no point in the Patriarchs receiving the covenant that the messiah being born from the line of Isaac.

No This man and those like him who claim to be Orthodox Tewahedo would tell us  this :let us be happy because Jesus Christ is Lord because he is black and his hair is nappy!Let us be happy in worshipping the black and nappy haired African Jesus because then  and Only then, we will be worshipping ourselves as we want to do. Our black skin and our nappy hairs, let us prostrate ourselves to them , let us proclaim him Lord who has the black skin and nappy hair as we do. Yes he is Lord because he is Black and nappy haired, we will not bow to those white skinned humans, the inferno of hell preserved for them like Babylon. While the black Israel stands watching and gloating with  a smile of satisfaction when the white Babylon burns! Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is Nappy! Will be the song of the black Israel in the New Zion.

They will tell us : No no this aint theology, its culture ..  you see, when I say Jesus IS black I am not  lying it’s my culture , When I say Moses is black therefore I am happy with his hair also being nappy, it is my culture. Oh please do not talk about orthodoxy, cant you tell that I am orthodox like you? why are we arguing? I don’t think we are disagreeing anywhere, we agree , we agreeeeeee,I tell you we agree, why are you saying no we do not agree? why are you being so stubborn! I am tewahedo like you, come on  be happy Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! This is tewahedo orthodox, I am tewahedo orthodox, please do not judge, do not say I am not orthodox, what will happen if we meet in heaven, I will be singing and being happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! While you my sister you are going to be punished for pontificating over little matter such as the Orthodox Faith. Why don’t we stop arguing over it and why don’t we all love one another as the black Jesus Christ our Lord has said? Why are you judging me?Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! Happy because Moses is black and his hair is nappy! Israel is black and his hair is nappy!

Some might call him a modern day psalmist even, meaning he is one if you sing  those lyrics along with him with utter devotion and dedication, his song like David’s psalm will lead you to Theosis.

This is clearly this Rastafarian man’s Faith, his Theology, the reason of his Joy, the reason of his Hope, why he wants to die and be buried there while the priests pray for him specifically with the ‘ gi’iz language!’ be it culture or theology for this guy and those like him, NONE of it is Orthodoxy! None of it is the Teaching of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

GMK, you said hiwot will not worship with this man; you are darn right I WILL NOT!!!


Psalm 137:5-6 5 if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
6 Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy.
Psalm 27:4
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 84:10
For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Just because anyone joins the procession does not mean that person is orthodox as evidenced by this video, those young Ethiopians were singing a different hymn than him , because the Holy Spirit is the fount of Wisdom He has allowed the testimony of their faith to be unwittingly recorded by this man:

The first mezmur briefly heard in the beginning of the song was the mezmur, “serawite melaektihu , lemedehane alem yiqewmu,/ Before the Savior of the World stand Hosts of Angeles/  at the end of the song there is another mezmur heard as the entire church sings it ‘ ne amin be Ab, we ne Amin be waled we ne Amin ba Manifes Qidus!’/We believe in the Father, We believe In the Son and We believe in the Holy Spirit!’ then before the prayer of absolution is said by the priest, there is a recitation of  this prayer 12x “ Egzio mehare ne kirstos!/ Christ Our Lord have mercy on us!’’ ‘ be ente egzietene maryam meharene Kristos’/ For the sake of our Lady Mary , Christ have mercy on us!’
Then you hear the absolution of the priest.

This was their worship; this is my worship, the Right Worship! The Orthodox Way!

I tell you if they knew what that man was saying in his language, as he danced over the graves of the Departed Orthodox Faithful,….am I not allowed to grieve over this slander over this lie over this desecration…. Ethiopians are very humble, and hospitable, but they are very fierce in guarding what’s theirs to guard also and I assure you their Orthodox Faith to the Orthodox of Ethiopia It is literally EVERYTHING. They find no joy better than to find more brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Faith, however they do not suffer the false brethren the open enemy is treated with better respect than the false brethren. The false brethren who dare to lie in the name of our most Holy ones! Our Anchorites, our monks and priest, these are our hearts!  Chameleons who are one thing with certain groups and another when they are with another group are to be avoided more than the wild beasts. Be glad those people did not know what he was singing about.. the anathema would have been dramatic to see.


The political offence, I will ignore, for instance, that hand symbol is a joke on him and those who imitate him. But that is more politics and for all practical purposes irrelevant.

As to Icons, when the Church teaches Christ is all and in all, we are not talking about altering historical reality of the Saviors birth, or the relevance of the Old Covenant and the importance of the genealogy of the Messiah, and the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Those who paint Christ as Chinese, and through him the blessed virgin and all others do so to impart a theological truth, they however never declare such lie as to dare say that the Messiah Is Chinese according to his human genealogy. That would be utter lie and we know where lies come from, who their father is, and why he lies.


 Is it true they do not know? what is the bible they have read enough to keep quoting for their purpose? Or is it a matter of distortion of what one knows well enough to distort it convincingly to some.a con artist has to know his art to perform it well does he not?  How many epistles were sent to the people of Corinth? How many epistles do we have now in our possession? Can we say we have not heard ? can we say we did not know? who Jesus Christ  is? If Thessaloniki  abandoned her idols and worshiped Christ, those of us who have so much with us, the words of the Savior Himself, the words of the Apostles, we have Moses and the Prophets, yet we still think we can say, we do not know when it comes to our idolatry that is done in the name of Jesus no less!  All mouth will be silenced on that day, no excuse will save us, like the Friend of God Abraham have said, if we cannot listen to Mosses and the Prophets we cannot listen to the Risen Christ, nor will we listen to anyone who might tell us to abandon our futile ways.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2012, 10:48:05 PM »

Wow. I really wish I hadn't clicked on that video.

At the risk of receiving another dot, if you (the general "you", not anybody posting in this thread) really care about Jesus Christ's skin color, I don't care what church you were baptized into or what you call yourself, you've completely missed the point of His coming, and are a fool. Sadly, I have noticed these kinds of stupid comments on all kinds of Ethiopian Orthodox mezmur videos on YT and elsewhere, where "Africa is suffering because of white Jesus" and all that garbage. I don't know if the people leaving them are Rastafarians or not, but there does seem to be an undercurrent of anti-Christ commentary in certain strains of "black liberation" thought that reacts to "white Jesus" as apparently foisted upon the world (as though the Ethiopians do not have their own depictions of Christ...now who is really devaluing or infantilizing the Africans?!  Roll Eyes), and quite frankly it strikes me as ignorant and stupid. This "rejoice because Israel is black" thing isn't really helping change my belief that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy don't belong within driving distance of one another...I mean, can you imagine if I recorded a mariachi song about how I'm happy because Christ is Mexican? (There are an awful lot of Mexicans named Jesus, after all...) That would be ridiculous. And if I said it was Orthodox, I can't imagine any Orthodox person I know being very happy with my misrepresentation of the Church and its faith, which does not privilege any race over another.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,391


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2012, 10:48:44 PM »


the Acclaimed great song!

Was this what the Savior of the World the Word of the Father came to the world for? to make us happy because Jesus Christ Is black and his hair IS nappy!”

Was this the faith that the martyrs gave their life for? that ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!’?

Was this the orthodox Faith the Apostles taught ? that we need to rejoice because ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”? that Mosses Is Black and his hair Is nappy!’. “ David IS black and his hair Is nappy!, ‘Israel is black and their hair is Nappy!”

Was this the Faith that is the Reason of our Hope? That “ Jesus Christ is Black and his hair is nappy!”?

Was this the Faith that is the source of our joy ? that ‘ makes me happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”

Was this the covenant  between God and men that the Patriarchs kept with zeal , that  calls us to be “ happy because  David Is black and his hair is nappy!”

What did Saint Paul mean when he said Romans 9:1-33  “ I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. “ he must have meant , “be happy Israel is black and his hair is Nappy!”

Was this what the Apostle Matthew trying to tell us when he labored to write the genealogy of Our Lord? So that we will be happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy?

Perhaps there was no point in the Patriarchs receiving the covenant that the messiah being born from the line of Isaac.

No This man and those like him who claim to be Orthodox Tewahedo would tell us  this :let us be happy because Jesus Christ is Lord because he is black and his hair is nappy!Let us be happy in worshipping the black and nappy haired African Jesus because then  and Only then, we will be worshipping ourselves as we want to do. Our black skin and our nappy hairs, let us prostrate ourselves to them , let us proclaim him Lord who has the black skin and nappy hair as we do. Yes he is Lord because he is Black and nappy haired, we will not bow to those white skinned humans, the inferno of hell preserved for them like Babylon. While the black Israel stands watching and gloating with  a smile of satisfaction when the white Babylon burns! Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is Nappy! Will be the song of the black Israel in the New Zion.

They will tell us : No no this aint theology, its culture ..  you see, when I say Jesus IS black I am not  lying it’s my culture , When I say Moses is black therefore I am happy with his hair also being nappy, it is my culture. Oh please do not talk about orthodoxy, cant you tell that I am orthodox like you? why are we arguing? I don’t think we are disagreeing anywhere, we agree , we agreeeeeee,I tell you we agree, why are you saying no we do not agree? why are you being so stubborn! I am tewahedo like you, come on  be happy Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! This is tewahedo orthodox, I am tewahedo orthodox, please do not judge, do not say I am not orthodox, what will happen if we meet in heaven, I will be singing and being happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! While you my sister you are going to be punished for pontificating over little matter such as the Orthodox Faith. Why don’t we stop arguing over it and why don’t we all love one another as the black Jesus Christ our Lord has said? Why are you judging me?Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! Happy because Moses is black and his hair is nappy! Israel is black and his hair is nappy!

Some might call him a modern day psalmist even, meaning he is one if you sing  those lyrics along with him with utter devotion and dedication, his song like David’s psalm will lead you to Theosis.

This is clearly this Rastafarian man’s Faith, his Theology, the reason of his Joy, the reason of his Hope, why he wants to die and be buried there while the priests pray for him specifically with the ‘ gi’iz language!’ be it culture or theology for this guy and those like him, NONE of it is Orthodoxy! None of it is the Teaching of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

GMK, you said hiwot will not worship with this man; you are darn right I WILL NOT!!!


Psalm 137:5-6 5 if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
6 Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy.
Psalm 27:4
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 84:10
For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Just because anyone joins the procession does not mean that person is orthodox as evidenced by this video, those young Ethiopians were singing a different hymn than him , because the Holy Spirit is the fount of Wisdom He has allowed the testimony of their faith to be unwittingly recorded by this man:

The first mezmur briefly heard in the beginning of the song was the mezmur, “serawite melaektihu , lemedehane alem yiqewmu,/ Before the Savior of the World stand Hosts of Angeles/  at the end of the song there is another mezmur heard as the entire church sings it ‘ ne amin be Ab, we ne Amin be waled we ne Amin ba Manifes Qidus!’/We believe in the Father, We believe In the Son and We believe in the Holy Spirit!’ then before the prayer of absolution is said by the priest, there is a recitation of  this prayer 12x “ Egzio mehare ne kirstos!/ Christ Our Lord have mercy on us!’’ ‘ be ente egzietene maryam meharene Kristos’/ For the sake of our Lady Mary , Christ have mercy on us!’
Then you hear the absolution of the priest.

This was their worship; this is my worship, the Right Worship! The Orthodox Way!

I tell you if they knew what that man was saying in his language, as he danced over the graves of the Departed Orthodox Faithful,….am I not allowed to grieve over this slander over this lie over this desecration…. Ethiopians are very humble, and hospitable, but they are very fierce in guarding what’s theirs to guard also and I assure you their Orthodox Faith to the Orthodox of Ethiopia It is literally EVERYTHING. They find no joy better than to find more brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Faith, however they do not suffer the false brethren the open enemy is treated with better respect than the false brethren. The false brethren who dare to lie in the name of our most Holy ones! Our Anchorites, our monks and priest, these are our hearts!  Chameleons who are one thing with certain groups and another when they are with another group are to be avoided more than the wild beasts. Be glad those people did not know what he was singing about.. the anathema would have been dramatic to see.


The political offence, I will ignore, for instance, that hand symbol is a joke on him and those who imitate him. But that is more politics and for all practical purposes irrelevant.

As to Icons, when the Church teaches Christ is all and in all, we are not talking about altering historical reality of the Saviors birth, or the relevance of the Old Covenant and the importance of the genealogy of the Messiah, and the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Those who paint Christ as Chinese, and through him the blessed virgin and all others do so to impart a theological truth, they however never declare such lie as to dare say that the Messiah Is Chinese according to his human genealogy. That would be utter lie and we know where lies come from, who their father is, and why he lies.


 Is it true they do not know? what is the bible they have read enough to keep quoting for their purpose? Or is it a matter of distortion of what one knows well enough to distort it convincingly to some.a con artist has to know his art to perform it well does he not?  How many epistles were sent to the people of Corinth? How many epistles do we have now in our possession? Can we say we have not heard ? can we say we did not know? who Jesus Christ  is? If Thessaloniki  abandoned her idols and worshiped Christ, those of us who have so much with us, the words of the Savior Himself, the words of the Apostles, we have Moses and the Prophets, yet we still think we can say, we do not know when it comes to our idolatry that is done in the name of Jesus no less!  All mouth will be silenced on that day, no excuse will save us, like the Friend of God Abraham have said, if we cannot listen to Mosses and the Prophets we cannot listen to the Risen Christ, nor will we listen to anyone who might tell us to abandon our futile ways.




A wise man recognizes error but dwells on truth. A wise man recognizes the log in his own eye rather than condemning the speck in his brother's eye. A wise man worships God regardless of who stands beside him. A wise man is patient with the ignorance of others, for he knows that apart from Christ he is the chief of fools. A wise man is quick to find and emphasize areas of agreement rather than magnifying differences and rejoicing in divisions. The wise man is not necessarily one who is theologically or philosophically erudite, but one who is humble, patient, forgiving, and kind. The wise man understands the words of St. Peter: "Love covers a multitude of sins. [I Peter 4:8]

You say that you will not worship beside Rastafarians. That is your choice. But when the Holy Qurbana is offered to me (an unworthy sinner) then I will open my mouth to receive it, regardless of who stands in front of me or who stands beside me. And when our Priests carry the Holy Tabots among the people, I will bow down in gratitude and reverence regardless of who bows down beside me. The glories and Mysteries of God are too wonderful for me to be distracted by judgments about my brother. But that is me, and you are certainly free to reject the Body and Blood of Christ if you feel you are in the presence of unworthy people. That is the beauty of our Faith: God will not force you to worship or receive Him.


"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."  [I Corinthians 13:4-8]


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." [Galatians 5:22-23]




Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.254 seconds with 71 queries.