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Author Topic: Get up Stand Up  (Read 4962 times) Average Rating: 0
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BrassMonkey
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« on: July 06, 2012, 08:59:48 AM »

So I was listening to Legend by Bob Marley the other day (yeah, yeah... I know).

Anyone got an opinion on what this song is about? In particular, the bit that mentions Jesus.

http://www.lyricsoncall.com/lyrics/bob-marley/get-up-stand-up-lyrics.html
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 02:54:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In what context?

My free-association thoughts?

Get Up Stand Up is one of the ALL time greatest protest songs.  Protest against what? You have to read deeper than the surface view, or face value of the lyrics. It is not necessarily a civil rights' song, or an anti-facist song, though it has been readily adopted by these.  This song has been a rallying cry across the Americas, and across Africa, to rally folks around the cause of freedom.  Rastafari is a LIBERATION movement. However, what are we liberating ourselves from? Captivity of the devil and sin, not necessarily politics. 

That is the half of the story not told. How do we find ours on earth? The Divine Mysteries, where God comes to the earth and meets us where we are in the Holy Communion. Sick and tired of bs game, dying and go to heaven in Lord Jesus Name, unfortunately folks in the Caribbean politics, much like slavery in the US, wrongfully tried to convince people that living in bondage and subhuman oppression is divinely ordained, and that folks should be concerned more with finding redemption in the afterlife than in this life.  That is a cop-out for oppression.  We are oppressed spiritual by the devil, and by the weight of sin, and we simply CAN'T wait for the afterlife to be relieved of this burden, then it may be too late.  We must seek salvation actively, here and now, as Apostle James taught us, Faith interacting with Works.

Get Up Stand Up in the deepest reflection means the same thing as

"Stand up for Prayer" like the Deacons chant during Divine Liturgy.  The deacons are reminded us our faith in the Church, through the Mysteries, must be active, dynamic, living.  We must actively stand up and reach for God in prayer.  This is our inalienable right given by Jesus Christ at the Cross.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 02:59:11 PM »

"We're sick and tired of this game of technology ; humbly asking Jesus for his mercy"

Lyrics  Cool , plus the first couplet "you preacher man don't tell me"...

Love it...

(I know this post will not make the topic advance, but well  Grin )
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 03:01:23 PM »

A noble attempt, Habte.

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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2012, 03:25:20 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
A noble attempt, Habte.



At what exactly is your insinuation?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2012, 03:35:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
A noble attempt, Habte.



At what exactly is your insinuation?

That you did well in trying to have the clearly Rastafarian and rebellion based lyrics jive with Orthodox beliefs. 

"You will look for yours on Earth"
ahh, but that's like what we do with the Divine Mysteries... right, I'm sure that's what they were on about too.

I'm similarly sure that the "Mighty God is a Living Man" bit was their insistence that Christ's humanity not be overlooked.

I'm not buying, but I appreciate your effort and creativity.  Great song, ridiculous and blasphemous lyrics included, and I still enjoy it.
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 03:50:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A noble attempt, Habte.



At what exactly is your insinuation?

That you did well in trying to have the clearly Rastafarian and rebellion based lyrics jive with Orthodox beliefs.  

"You will look for yours on Earth"
ahh, but that's like what we do with the Divine Mysteries... right, I'm sure that's what they were on about too.

I'm similarly sure that the "Mighty God is a Living Man" bit was their insistence that Christ's humanity not be overlooked.

I'm not buying, but I appreciate your effort and creativity.  Great song, ridiculous and blasphemous lyrics included, and I still enjoy it.

Where was the blasphemy?  Kindly quote the blasphemy you saw in those lyrics, I can't for the life of me fin any.  Is it the verse about Jesus?

Again I think you misunderstand what those brothers intended.  They are not mashing down against Jesus Christ, quite the opposite.  They are saying that Jesus is actual, real, living, not rhetorical or theoritical.  We don't have to wait or Jesus to come to our lives.  Even the  most ardent Rasta who worshipped HIM believed HIM to be Jesus, seen? So there is no confusion here.  Again, that verse is meant to attack those folks who have tried to mistakenly use Christianity to support colonialism, slavery, and racism.  Such is nonsense.  Jesus doesn't dig that kind of vibe, and neither to the Rastafari people.  This is the other half of the story left untold.  We are not waiting for some pie-in-the-sky God to come save us, and in the meantime suffer in our sins until then. God can save us here, and now, in this instant, in the present moment, where we are actually and currently living.

I wasn't trying to say that the intentions of the Wailers were an Orthodox lyric, but that as a Rastafari brother who has lived this life for some years now, and also lives in the Orthodox, I can easily see the bridge.  The point, which I think you lost in your hyperbole, is that the initial intentions of Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, and Bunny Wailer with this, that Rastafari is a LIBERATION movement, but the battle is spiritual.  

That is the other half of the story.  That is the reality of God being a Living Man, and seeking ours on earth in the present moment.  I combined Orthodox language and Rastafari language so folks here who speak Orthodox could understand,  but all out, the Rastafari purpose of that song was not politics, it was spiritual.  It is SIN that destroys humanity, and in this, both Rastafari and Orthodox openly and mutually agree.  The liberation which Rastafari promotes is SPIRITUAL.  I say this as a card-carrying Rastafari brother.  How do we win this spiritual battle? Many in Rastafari, the late Berhane Selassie (Bob Marley's baptismal name) and many other Elders agreed it is the Orthodox Church.

A lot of folks might read those lyrics and think that song is about politics, its not.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 03:54:36 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 07:11:21 PM »

So I was listening to Legend by Bob Marley the other day (yeah, yeah... I know).

Anyone got an opinion on what this song is about? In particular, the bit that mentions Jesus.

http://www.lyricsoncall.com/lyrics/bob-marley/get-up-stand-up-lyrics.html


I've always understood it as being a reference to Rastafarian beliefs.
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 11:50:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A noble attempt, Habte.



At what exactly is your insinuation?

That you did well in trying to have the clearly Rastafarian and rebellion based lyrics jive with Orthodox beliefs.  

"You will look for yours on Earth"
ahh, but that's like what we do with the Divine Mysteries... right, I'm sure that's what they were on about too.

I'm similarly sure that the "Mighty God is a Living Man" bit was their insistence that Christ's humanity not be overlooked.

I'm not buying, but I appreciate your effort and creativity.  Great song, ridiculous and blasphemous lyrics included, and I still enjoy it.

Where was the blasphemy?  Kindly quote the blasphemy you saw in those lyrics, I can't for the life of me fin any.  Is it the verse about Jesus?

"We know and we understand, that Mighty God is a living man."  This, as you well know, is about HIM, a man/dude (who was not Jesus).  Saying that God is a dude (other than Christ, who lived and died in the first century) is blasphemous (although perhaps truly misguided and harmful is easier to stick).  I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.


Quote
A lot of folks might read those lyrics and think that song is about politics, its not.

I would agree with that last bit, and I still think it's a great song, either way.  I still don't personally believe that Rastafarian beliefs and Orthodoxy jive, but I don't want to fight you on this. 

Not to sound condescending or what not, but without knowing you personally, I think you've done about the best job of mixing the two I've seen.  I mean that to reflect well on you, but not on most the Rasta buddies I've knows (speaking of their Xtian connection, not their personal traits).  Regardless of my opinions on Rastafarianism, I'm fairly confident that you're a better Christian than I am.
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 05:17:51 AM »

Thanks for your comments guys.

"We know and we understand, that Mighty God is a living man."  This, as you well know, is about HIM, a man/dude (who was not Jesus).  Saying that God is a dude (other than Christ, who lived and died in the first century) is blasphemous (although perhaps truly misguided and harmful is easier to stick).  I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

This was my first thought- that the "living man" referred to HIM. But my subsequent reading has led me to understand, firstly, that Bob Marley was a rasta of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who do not hold HIM to be God. Something close to a saint maybe, but not God. Secondly, Marley converted to OO before he died. Even if the song far predates his conversion, and the change of heart that presumably went with it, how do we explain away the first point?
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 06:11:33 AM »

Cool music.  Blasphemous lyrics.  Rastararianism is a cult.
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2012, 03:50:30 PM »

Thanks for your comments guys.

"We know and we understand, that Mighty God is a living man."  This, as you well know, is about HIM, a man/dude (who was not Jesus).  Saying that God is a dude (other than Christ, who lived and died in the first century) is blasphemous (although perhaps truly misguided and harmful is easier to stick).  I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

This was my first thought- that the "living man" referred to HIM. But my subsequent reading has led me to understand, firstly, that Bob Marley was a rasta of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who do not hold HIM to be God. Something close to a saint maybe, but not God. Secondly, Marley converted to OO before he died. Even if the song far predates his conversion, and the change of heart that presumably went with it, how do we explain away the first point?

Lots of revisionism and assumptions there.  He and Peter Tosh were not Christians when they wrote that song (unless in some convoluted "deep in their hearts" way).  Who is this "living man" then?

If you prefer to think of the meaning in that way, I personally don't see any problems with that.  I love countless songs that I try to ignore or twist the lyrics so that they are a bit less, whatever.
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2012, 10:54:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Bob Marley has a particular lyric that comes to mind about some of the comments on this thread:

Quote




A noble attempt, Habte.



At what exactly is your insinuation?

That you did well in trying to have the clearly Rastafarian and rebellion based lyrics jive with Orthodox beliefs.  

"You will look for yours on Earth"
ahh, but that's like what we do with the Divine Mysteries... right, I'm sure that's what they were on about too.

I'm similarly sure that the "Mighty God is a Living Man" bit was their insistence that Christ's humanity not be overlooked.

I'm not buying, but I appreciate your effort and creativity.  Great song, ridiculous and blasphemous lyrics included, and I still enjoy it.

Where was the blasphemy?  Kindly quote the blasphemy you saw in those lyrics, I can't for the life of me fin any.  Is it the verse about Jesus?

"We know and we understand, that Mighty God is a living man."  This, as you well know, is about HIM, a man/dude (who was not Jesus).  Saying that God is a dude (other than Christ, who lived and died in the first century) is blasphemous (although perhaps truly misguided and harmful is easier to stick).  I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.


Quote
A lot of folks might read those lyrics and think that song is about politics, its not.

I would agree with that last bit, and I still think it's a great song, either way.  I still don't personally believe that Rastafarian beliefs and Orthodoxy jive, but I don't want to fight you on this.  

Not to sound condescending or what not, but without knowing you personally, I think you've done about the best job of mixing the two I've seen.  I mean that to reflect well on you, but not on most the Rasta buddies I've knows (speaking of their Xtian connection, not their personal traits).  Regardless of my opinions on Rastafarianism, I'm fairly confident that you're a better Christian than I am.

Thank you for the compliment by the way.  I meant no disrespect Smiley

I blend Orthodox and Rastafari well because I was taught this syncretic blend by Rastafari Elders who also are part of the Orthodox Church, which is precisely how I found the Orthodox Church in the first place.  Many thousands of Rastafari brothers and sisters have been baptised into the Faith, and many thousands are practising members of Orthodox parishes.  Rastafari Elders have been part of boards, steering committees, associations, education programs, etc etc, in other words, many of us are part of the Church.  These are those who have introduced me to the Church directly, and who I fellowship with, and these Elders are who taught me by example what it means to be both Rastafari and yet Orthodox.  I assure you, Orthodox comes first, because Orthodox is the Faith, and Rastafari is a political-spiritual way of living, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  There is a diversity amongst Rastafari, as we say, there are many mansions there, I fellowship in particular with mansions such as the Ethiopian World Federation and the Twelve Tribes of Israel which have been directly interconnected with the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church since HIM Haile Selassie sent the first Ethiopian mission to the western hemisphere  to Trinidad at the specific request of EWF Rastafari members in 1956.  Since then, the EOTC and many mansions of Rastafari have worked together for mutual goals, as again, we are not inherently mutually exclusive.  I know we have had this debate before, and many here on the forum will try to argue otherwise, but myself and many thousands of people are living proof and witness that such are mistaken.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 10:28:53 AM »

I have to say I like HabteSelassie's interpretation best. But perhaps that is wishful thinking on my part.

I think the question that's really on my mind is: even if the original message is blasphemous, is there likely to be any spiritual harm in listening to the song and wilfully reinterpreting it as an affirmation of Orthodoxy?

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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 08:41:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In what context?

My free-association thoughts?

Get Up Stand Up is one of the ALL time greatest protest songs.  Protest against what? You have to read deeper than the surface view, or face value of the lyrics. It is not necessarily a civil rights' song, or an anti-facist song, though it has been readily adopted by these.  This song has been a rallying cry across the Americas, and across Africa, to rally folks around the cause of freedom.  Rastafari is a LIBERATION movement. However, what are we liberating ourselves from? Captivity of the devil and sin, not necessarily politics. 

That is the half of the story not told. How do we find ours on earth? The Divine Mysteries, where God comes to the earth and meets us where we are in the Holy Communion. Sick and tired of bs game, dying and go to heaven in Lord Jesus Name, unfortunately folks in the Caribbean politics, much like slavery in the US, wrongfully tried to convince people that living in bondage and subhuman oppression is divinely ordained, and that folks should be concerned more with finding redemption in the afterlife than in this life.  That is a cop-out for oppression.  We are oppressed spiritual by the devil, and by the weight of sin, and we simply CAN'T wait for the afterlife to be relieved of this burden, then it may be too late.  We must seek salvation actively, here and now, as Apostle James taught us, Faith interacting with Works.

Get Up Stand Up in the deepest reflection means the same thing as

"Stand up for Prayer" like the Deacons chant during Divine Liturgy.  The deacons are reminded us our faith in the Church, through the Mysteries, must be active, dynamic, living.  We must actively stand up and reach for God in prayer.  This is our inalienable right given by Jesus Christ at the Cross.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Great assessment! So many of Bob's lyrics seem to forshadow the fulfillment of truth that he finally embraced and received upon his Baptism into the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. Sometimes the first step towards Christ is a rebellion against the many idols fashioned in His name. That's how I intepret much of Bob Marley's music: rebellion against the idols of politics, colonialism, injustice, racism, arrogance, atheism, war, death and destruction- anything that is essentially a manifestation of the demonic rather than the divine. 

There are many layers and meanings to his lyrics. For example: "Every time I plant a seed, they say kill it before it grows" (from "I Shot the Sheriff"). Most people recognize this line as a reference to ganja, but how many realize that this is also a deliberate indictment of abortion? See, that was the genius of Bob! Wink

A modern day Psalmist, decrying the infathomable evils of this world while invoking the ever sure hope of a merciful God.

JAH! RASTAFARI!!!

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie):  MEMORY I-TERNAL





Selam
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 08:48:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



 JAH! RASTAFARI!!!

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie):  MEMORY I-TERNAL


Selam

Waiting for Apocalyptic backlash in 3..2..1..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 11:12:50 PM »

So I was listening to Legend by Bob Marley the other day (yeah, yeah... I know).

Anyone got an opinion on what this song is about? In particular, the bit that mentions Jesus.

http://www.lyricsoncall.com/lyrics/bob-marley/get-up-stand-up-lyrics.html


what did our Lord say about the wolves with a sheep clothing? those who say they are speaking in the Holy Spirit and prophesying in His Name, when they are not?

All heresies for the most part, have preached peace, love and brotherhood, and many have done it in the Name of Jesus, but at the heart what propels their distortion of Scripture and lies against the Orthodox Faith and the Orthodox Church has always been that they were serving their ego that has gotten inflated by the Devil and not God. thus their teachings has been referred by the Savior as " the gates of hell" for instance in this thread, you can see the Rastafarian's rushing to defend this heretical and blasphemous song, and go far as far as to elevate it as equal to the call of the Deacon in the Divine Liturgy, and the singer equal to the man who has been called like the heart of God, the Prophet of the Lord, King David.

we are told by them that rastafarianisim is really not a political movement, rather one that preaches the Gospel as the need for liberation from sin and Satan's domination, they without shame will us to ignore all the facts that make this ' pseudospiritual political movement" and regard it as a spiritual movement of repentance and reconciliation with GOD. how is that for distortion?

I want you to know that the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church will call all men into repentance and salvation that is found in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thus to combat and correct the erroneous and heretical teaching of the Rastafarian's the Orthodox Church has sent messangers of the Gospel of The Lord, into the Caribbeans, and have baptised those who have renounced their former ways and heretical beliefs and distortions, however like the apostle says many have returned to their former vomits. and many still sit on their idols like Jacob's wife Rachel did on the way to Betel. thinking they can enter the kingdom while embracing their idols in their bosom and giving this reason or that as to why they are not casting it away. the ETOC will baptise those who confess Christ and vow to keep their baptismal vows, but has no association with those who like pigs return to their former filth or like dogs swallow their vomit.

yet these people continue to lie against the Faith, the Church and her Holy Tradition, and take glory in their shame.Rest assured they will account to the Lord for their lies.

In the Liturgy, the priest washes his hands and says if any one of you partakes this communion in unworthy manner then I am free of your blood. thus says the entire church to those that approach to commune in an unworthy manner, if you do not listen your blood is upon you. they will continue to ignore the truth and hold on to their idols and passions of their flesh, then they have no real communion with the Church the Body of Christ, they have anathematised themselves with their own mouth in their baptismal vow they have rejected. They claim communion in unworthy manner, without Communion in the Orthodox Faith there is No Communion. no matter what they wish to tell themselves or others in their inherent deception.

as to you , run from such  demonic attachments, work out your salvation with fear and trembling in the Orthodox Faith and the Orthodox Communion of the Faithful you are in. Glorify Christ above all things, and crucify the world and its lusts within you. let No One deceive you.

I will leave you with  the advise of the Apostle

Ephesians 5:1-20

1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.a 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.



With Love in Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 11:37:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



 JAH! RASTAFARI!!!

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie):  MEMORY I-TERNAL


Selam

Waiting for Apocalyptic backlash in 3..2..1..

stay blessed,
habte selassie


what is apocalyptic, or what continues to be revealed is how far you both ( habte and gebre) go in the blasphemy genre, when it comes to defending the Rastafarianisim you love. your comparative theology was quite apocalyptic as was gebre's that was accompanied by this blasphemous poster.

I say if you guys were attempting to unveil your allegiance to Rastafarian doctrine( that goes beyond the worship of the emperor) you have done quite well. but my country men have a saying , just because you have two legs does not mean you can climb two trees at the same time, there comes a point you will have to chose one way or another. good luck in that choice.
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 12:08:53 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2012, 12:18:13 AM »

Sometimes the first step towards Christ is a rebellion against the many idols fashioned in His name.

This is a great point and one that shouldn't ever be overlooked when encountering those "anti-Christians" out there of varying stripes.

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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 12:24:12 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 12:32:49 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I want you to know that the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church will call all men into repentance and salvation that is found in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Amen Amen!

That is what I go there for Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2012, 12:51:51 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 12:52:15 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I want you to know that the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church will call all men into repentance and salvation that is found in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Amen Amen!

That is what I go there for Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie

then I hope you start to show the fruit of that repentance and stop giving false witness as to say what the singer said is the same as what the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church says in her Divine Liturgy.or that comparative theology of yours that argues Rastafarianisim is similar and compatable with Orthodoxy,  stop merging an idol with Christ. Repent of your former ways and be Transformed in Christ, be a True Freed Man in Christ, and call all Men into Freedom in Christ. He asks us to be Holy /Separate/ from all that false spirituality that does not have The Holy Spirit in it. once you are free, do not be held into slavery once more to your old attachments and lusts spiritual or otherwise. because the Church always proclaims the Kingdom before the reading of the Holy Gospel saying in the words of the Forerunner " Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!" so let us all bear fruits Worthy of our Repentance in the Peraclete ( He is the Only One Who Sanctifies and Strengthens) and no other.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2012, 12:57:29 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I want you to know that the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church will call all men into repentance and salvation that is found in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Amen Amen!

That is what I go there for Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie

then I hope you start to show the fruit of that repentance and stop giving false witness as to say what the singer said is the same as what the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church says in her Divine Liturgy.or that comparative theology of yours that argues Rastafarianisim is similar and compatable with Orthodoxy,  stop merging an idol with Christ. Repent of your former ways and be Transformed in Christ, be a True Freed Man in Christ, and call all Men into Freedom in Christ. He asks us to be Holy /Separate/ from all that false spirituality that does not have The Holy Spirit in it. once you are free, do not be held into slavery once more to your old attachments and lusts spiritual or otherwise. because the Church always proclaims the Kingdom before the reading of the Holy Gospel saying in the words of the Forerunner " Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!" so let us all bear fruits Worthy of our Repentance in the Peraclete ( He is the Only One Who Sanctifies and Strengthens) and no other.


I respect your zeal dear sistren. It is tuly needed in these perilous times. But please be careful not to uproot the wheat with the tares.


Selam
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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2012, 12:57:33 AM »

I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw.

You referred to him as a "modern day Psalmist" 8 posts up from this claim.
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« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2012, 01:03:38 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



then I hope you start to show the fruit of that repentance and stop giving false witness as to say what the singer said is the same as what the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church says in her Divine Liturgy.or that comparative theology of yours that argues Rastafarianisim is similar and compatable with Orthodoxy,  stop merging an idol with Christ. Repent of your former ways and be Transformed in Christ, be a True Freed Man in Christ, and call all Men into Freedom in Christ. He asks us to be Holy /Separate/ from all that false spirituality that does not have The Holy Spirit in it. once you are free, do not be held into slavery once more to your old attachments and lusts spiritual or otherwise. because the Church always proclaims the Kingdom before the reading of the Holy Gospel saying in the words of the Forerunner " Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!" so let us all bear fruits Worthy of our Repentance in the Peraclete ( He is the Only One Who Sanctifies and Strengthens) and no other.

Thank you for your concern and your kind prayers my sister.  As a delightful priest taught me, "Please pray for me, I have a terrible problem.  I worship the Holy Trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so please pray for me, a sinner."


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2012, 01:07:44 AM »

Sorry, I missed your reply, Habte.


Ok so remembrance of action against Jesus Christ
& then remembrance of action against Marcus Garvey

I don't see the Christianity in these lyrics.  Instead, I see him equating the two or getting confused again between the Lord and dudes.

Again, while I love the guy, Tosh (relevant to "Get up Stand up") was pretty dern anti-Christian.  Maybe Marley came all around, but I still think a lot of his lyrics are a stretch (at best).


Quote
Thank you for the compliment by the way.  I meant no disrespect Smiley

You are most welcome; I meant it.  None taken whatsoever.

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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2012, 01:11:31 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Entire Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.
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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2012, 01:17:39 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Enter Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.


If I am graced to enter the kingdom and shall meet you there, I shall be pleased but not surprised. I only hope that if you meet me there, you will not be disappointed even though you will surely be greatly surprised. I imagine we may join Bob and the angels singing, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord... " Smiley


Selam
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« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2012, 01:33:04 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



then I hope you start to show the fruit of that repentance and stop giving false witness as to say what the singer said is the same as what the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church says in her Divine Liturgy.or that comparative theology of yours that argues Rastafarianisim is similar and compatable with Orthodoxy,  stop merging an idol with Christ. Repent of your former ways and be Transformed in Christ, be a True Freed Man in Christ, and call all Men into Freedom in Christ. He asks us to be Holy /Separate/ from all that false spirituality that does not have The Holy Spirit in it. once you are free, do not be held into slavery once more to your old attachments and lusts spiritual or otherwise. because the Church always proclaims the Kingdom before the reading of the Holy Gospel saying in the words of the Forerunner " Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!" so let us all bear fruits Worthy of our Repentance in the Peraclete ( He is the Only One Who Sanctifies and Strengthens) and no other.

Thank you for your concern and your kind prayers my sister.  As a delightful priest taught me, "Please pray for me, I have a terrible problem.  I worship the Holy Trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so please pray for me, a sinner."


stay blessed,
habte selassie


Indeed let us learn from that delightful priest and first admit our errors repent of them with sincerity and ask for forgiveness of God and His aid not to return to them. that is the path of true repentance. perhaps habte, you will one day say those things the priest have said too. In the mean time, May the Prayers of the Saints help all of us into a life of true repentance and purity. Amen.
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2012, 01:52:58 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Enter Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.


If I am graced to enter the kingdom and shall meet you there, I shall be pleased but not surprised. I only hope that if you meet me there, you will not be disappointed even though you will surely be greatly surprised. I imagine we may join Bob and the angels singing, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord... " Smiley


Selam

Oh Gebre, What is so surprising in the Mercifulness of God? would You be surprised to see anyone including the Devil be granted mercy were he to seek it?  for those who repent and seek mercy God is infinitely merciful. God is Love and His Mercy endures forever, may it be so you are granted that union with God my brother, may it be so for all, knowing God the union with Him will be in Truth, not in falsity. such is the Faith the Church has been entrusted with. It is not my place to say who enters the kingdom and who goes to hell, be it me or any other person. but It is my responsibility to guard and to care for , and to witness the Faith I have received with my very life if need be.

God seeks those that worship him in Spirit and Truth. and not simply by saying Abraham is our father. He is Merciful and Just. From those that much has been given much will be expected. let us not deceive ourselves.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2012, 02:18:30 AM »

It must be that time of year again. Sorry, I still don't see how you can be Orthodox and Rastafarian, creative interpretations of Bob Marley lyrics aside.
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2012, 02:22:12 AM »

In my opinion, a listener may and should be able to interpret a song however he/she wishes for his/her own private recreational listening, without any regard to the artist's intentions. I do this all the time. Such an approach reflects--again, in my opinion--respect for such music as 'art' in the fullest sense of the term.

Interpreting a song as being morally or spiritually compatible with Orthodoxy may be difficult to do naturally and in good conscience, however, if it is clear that the artist intended it in a contrary manner.

I'm not going to comment on the song under discussion, except to say that I would support HabteSelassie's decision to value it as part of his music collection if he in good conscience is naturally inclined to register its references to Christ in the Orthodox manner he believes them to have been intended--whether or not they were indeed so intended.
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2012, 02:37:17 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Enter Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.


If I am graced to enter the kingdom and shall meet you there, I shall be pleased but not surprised. I only hope that if you meet me there, you will not be disappointed even though you will surely be greatly surprised. I imagine we may join Bob and the angels singing, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord... " Smiley


Selam

Oh Gebre, What is so surprising in the Mercifulness of God? would You be surprised to see anyone including the Devil be granted mercy were he to seek it?  for those who repent and seek mercy God is infinitely merciful. God is Love and His Mercy endures forever, may it be so you are granted that union with God my brother, may it be so for all, knowing God the union with Him will be in Truth, not in falsity. such is the Faith the Church has been entrusted with. It is not my place to say who enters the kingdom and who goes to hell, be it me or any other person. but It is my responsibility to guard and to care for , and to witness the Faith I have received with my very life if need be.

God seeks those that worship him in Spirit and Truth. and not simply by saying Abraham is our father. He is Merciful and Just. From those that much has been given much will be expected. let us not deceive ourselves.


In all this we are in full agreement. And I am glad that you now call me your brother.  Wink


Selam
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2012, 02:38:25 AM »

It must be that time of year again. Sorry, I still don't see how you can be Orthodox and Rastafarian, creative interpretations of Bob Marley lyrics aside.

yeap its a vicious cycle, of attempted grafting of rastafariansim into orthodoxy, then when challenged ,back pedaling with false piety etc, then come again on another day with the same argument worded differently and try again to pass rastafarianisim and its manifestations as orthodoxy, then when challenged back pedal again with bunch of words that can pass for piety, only to come back again and try next time....

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2012, 02:42:54 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Enter Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.


If I am graced to enter the kingdom and shall meet you there, I shall be pleased but not surprised. I only hope that if you meet me there, you will not be disappointed even though you will surely be greatly surprised. I imagine we may join Bob and the angels singing, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord... " Smiley


Selam

Oh Gebre, What is so surprising in the Mercifulness of God? would You be surprised to see anyone including the Devil be granted mercy were he to seek it?  for those who repent and seek mercy God is infinitely merciful. God is Love and His Mercy endures forever, may it be so you are granted that union with God my brother, may it be so for all, knowing God the union with Him will be in Truth, not in falsity. such is the Faith the Church has been entrusted with. It is not my place to say who enters the kingdom and who goes to hell, be it me or any other person. but It is my responsibility to guard and to care for , and to witness the Faith I have received with my very life if need be.

God seeks those that worship him in Spirit and Truth. and not simply by saying Abraham is our father. He is Merciful and Just. From those that much has been given much will be expected. let us not deceive ourselves.


In all this we are in full agreement. And I am glad that you now call me your brother.  Wink


Selam

Gebre, we are all human beings are we not, we are brothers and sisters. we are not however in agreement when it comes to the Orthodox Faith. I am sorry to say, and I have no union with how you believe in your rastafarian way. I follow the Orthodox Faith, If we were in agreement as you say, this conversation would not be happening. Re read the Thread if you have forgotten what the point of disagreement was and how important it is. Thank you.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2012, 02:47:03 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Enter Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.


If I am graced to enter the kingdom and shall meet you there, I shall be pleased but not surprised. I only hope that if you meet me there, you will not be disappointed even though you will surely be greatly surprised. I imagine we may join Bob and the angels singing, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord... " Smiley


Selam

Oh Gebre, What is so surprising in the Mercifulness of God? would You be surprised to see anyone including the Devil be granted mercy were he to seek it?  for those who repent and seek mercy God is infinitely merciful. God is Love and His Mercy endures forever, may it be so you are granted that union with God my brother, may it be so for all, knowing God the union with Him will be in Truth, not in falsity. such is the Faith the Church has been entrusted with. It is not my place to say who enters the kingdom and who goes to hell, be it me or any other person. but It is my responsibility to guard and to care for , and to witness the Faith I have received with my very life if need be.

God seeks those that worship him in Spirit and Truth. and not simply by saying Abraham is our father. He is Merciful and Just. From those that much has been given much will be expected. let us not deceive ourselves.


In all this we are in full agreement. And I am glad that you now call me your brother.  Wink


Selam

Gebre, we are all human beings are we not, we are brothers and sisters. we are not however in agreement when it comes to the Orthodox Faith. I am sorry to say, and I have no union with how you believe in your rastafarian way. I follow the Orthodox Faith, If we were in agreement as you say, this conversation would not be happening. Re read the Thread if you have forgotten what the point of disagreement was and how important it is. Thank you.


Well, I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:47:43 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2012, 02:55:34 AM »

I don't get it. When did "I disagree with your point of view" become "you are judging ME"? Are you Rastafarianism, or is Rastafarianism a music-based political ideology/subculture (or whatever you think of it as) that you have adopted, and not inherently linked to Orthodox Christianity but by your insistence that they are somehow complementary?

I mean...what was Orthodoxy all about before Jamaica c. 1930s, when all this Rastafari stuff started? Before Bob Marley, even? It seems like the Rastafrian ideologies are extremely late innovations that at best obscure and distract from the true faith, and you know how Orthodoxy is about late innovations...
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 03:06:27 AM »

You called it Habte! I wonder what our dear sister will do when she meets our brother Berhane Selassie in the Kingdom? "No thank you Lord, I don't want to be here with this man. I judge his baptism to be ineffectual. How dare you let him in your kingdom?!"
 
 Roll Eyes

Selam

First of all Gebre, I do not presume on the certainty of my entrance to the kingdom,I hope and trust in God's mercy however, that does not mean I will not strive to keep the Orthodox Faith that was handed over and entrusted to the Church, it is my baptismal vow that I will live and die keeping. the Faith I keep is beyond my personal weaknesses, that Truth of God is not to be lied about. now I will pray to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom but not only me but to see everyone in the Kingdom, that does not however mean I will allow the tares of heresies to be preached as Orthodoxy by the messengers of the Enemy. personally I do not know him from Adam, yet I know what he sung about, what he advocated in that song was not the Orthodox Faith or the Hymn of David. no matter what the Father of Lies tries to twist it into looking and imitating the Orthodox Faith and the Psalm of David. those that say so, reveal who they serve when they lie it is as simple as that.

there is No fear to speak the Truth,Christ is risen!


Truly He is risen!

I encourage you to read our posts again. Notice that I said I think that Bob Marley's lyrics foreshadowed the fullness of truth that he received at his Baptism. I did not say and never will say that his songs and lyrics are liturgical or without flaw. But his songs are laced with biblical scriptures and imagery, and they paved the way to Orthodoxy for me and many others.

"Who feels it knows it Lord..."


Selam

and I ask you to read what you have been posting in here, including that poster. I have no expectation of the truth out of you gebre, if one can dare to lie against God , what can one fear against man? he was a heretic and he repented of his ways and got baptised into Orthodoxy, before he was baptised he was not moved by the spirit when he distorted the meaning of scripture and blasphemed. you seem not to see the blasphemy because you willfully closed your eyes to it and are in adamant denial of it. you think quoting scripture makes one a holy man who prophesied? the orthodox Church sent the messanger of the Gospel and confronted the lies that were being disseminated by bob and the cult he was engaged in, with the message of Orthodoxy. the usage of the name of God or the biblical words magnifies the nature of the blasphemous teaching and intensifies the attachment to the heresy. because it occupies both the political and the spiritual side of the person. what is fulfilled in Christianity is not the prophesy of rastafarianisim, what is fulfilled is God's plan for the Enter Humanity in His Only Begotten Son through the Holy Spirit. so please spare me , the fulfilled Rastafarian speech, no such thing as fulfilled Zoroastrian, fulfilled, Asteratian, fulfilled Athenian( if there were such a thing in Orthodoxy the Greeks would have had dibs on it)

Stop with all the excuses, fake is not real, the fake spirituality of rastafarianisim is the lie of the Devil its imitation of orthodoxy is the Devil's joke and his mockery. The Orthodox Faith is the True Faith. Period.


If I am graced to enter the kingdom and shall meet you there, I shall be pleased but not surprised. I only hope that if you meet me there, you will not be disappointed even though you will surely be greatly surprised. I imagine we may join Bob and the angels singing, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord... " Smiley


Selam

Oh Gebre, What is so surprising in the Mercifulness of God? would You be surprised to see anyone including the Devil be granted mercy were he to seek it?  for those who repent and seek mercy God is infinitely merciful. God is Love and His Mercy endures forever, may it be so you are granted that union with God my brother, may it be so for all, knowing God the union with Him will be in Truth, not in falsity. such is the Faith the Church has been entrusted with. It is not my place to say who enters the kingdom and who goes to hell, be it me or any other person. but It is my responsibility to guard and to care for , and to witness the Faith I have received with my very life if need be.

God seeks those that worship him in Spirit and Truth. and not simply by saying Abraham is our father. He is Merciful and Just. From those that much has been given much will be expected. let us not deceive ourselves.


In all this we are in full agreement. And I am glad that you now call me your brother.  Wink


Selam

Gebre, we are all human beings are we not, we are brothers and sisters. we are not however in agreement when it comes to the Orthodox Faith. I am sorry to say, and I have no union with how you believe in your rastafarian way. I follow the Orthodox Faith, If we were in agreement as you say, this conversation would not be happening. Re read the Thread if you have forgotten what the point of disagreement was and how important it is. Thank you.


Well, I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 what judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
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Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
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"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2012, 03:36:45 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2012, 03:41:07 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam


What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
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Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
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"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2012, 03:48:38 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam


What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.

What more can I say other than what I have said above?

Peace and Love my sister.  Smiley

Besime Ab, WeWolde, WeMenfesQidus, Ahadu Amlak, -amen-


Selam
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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2012, 04:11:35 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam


What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.

What more can I say other than what I have said above?

Peace and Love my sister.  Smiley

Besime Ab, WeWolde, WeMenfesQidus, Ahadu Amlak, -amen-


Selam

what you can say is that the next time you try to support a rastafarian ideology you will not attempt to give it the veneer of Orthodoxy. just speak your rastafarian thoughts as they are and I will stay out of your way. is that too much to ask? do not pretend that rastafarianisim is compatible with orthodoxy. away with the egotistical comments of false piety When talking about the Faith we must talk in Truth. Orthodoxy heals the broken ego of man by transfiguring it in Christ so the New Man in Christ is capable of dying to himself and capable of True humility and Love.  these two are not compatible or similar in any way whatsoever. so while you have a right to follow rastafariansim to your heart's content but for God sake stop trying to pass it as orthodox or even remotely similar to Orthodoxy. Thank you.
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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2012, 04:17:48 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam


What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.

What more can I say other than what I have said above?

Peace and Love my sister.  Smiley

Besime Ab, WeWolde, WeMenfesQidus, Ahadu Amlak, -amen-


Selam

what you can say is that the next time you try to support a rastafarian ideology you will not attempt to give it the veneer of Orthodoxy. just speak your rastafarian thoughts as they are and I will stay out of your way. is that too much to ask? do not pretend that rastafarianisim is compatible with orthodoxy. away with the egotistical comments of false piety When talking about the Faith we must talk in Truth. Orthodoxy heals the broken ego of man by transfiguring it in Christ so the New Man in Christ is capable of dying to himself and capable of True humility and Love.  these two are not compatible or similar in any way whatsoever. so while you have a right to follow rastafariansim to your heart's content but for God sake stop trying to pass it as orthodox or even remotely similar to Orthodoxy. Thank you.


I acknowledge your words above that I have highlighted in bold. I hope you will heed your own admonition. Forgive me if I have come across as falsely pious or self-righteous. I am only a sinner in need of much prayer.



Selam
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 04:19:51 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2012, 04:33:28 AM »

I will treat and love you as my Orthodox sister regardless of how you choose to judge me.

When you get down and you quarrel every day
You're saying prayers to the devil I say
Why not help one another along the way
And make life much easier?

Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie)


Selam

 What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.


I am content to let God judge between our words above. If I have erred on the side of loving and respecting you as my Orthodox Christian sister, then that is an error I can live with. If you erred in accidentally referring to me as your brother, then I hope that is an error that you won't regret.


Selam


What judges you is the heretical and blasphemous Words you have spoken in these threads in your defense of Rastafariansim Gebre and I will not repeat myself, you can read what you have wrote and what others have replied. The Truth that is God is above you and me. lie against Him then you judge yourself and no one else have to. you have successfully degraded this conversation on the Faith into a personal holiness display of sorts, how repulsive this act is. Lord have mercy.

What more can I say other than what I have said above?

Peace and Love my sister.  Smiley

Besime Ab, WeWolde, WeMenfesQidus, Ahadu Amlak, -amen-


Selam

what you can say is that the next time you try to support a rastafarian ideology you will not attempt to give it the veneer of Orthodoxy. just speak your rastafarian thoughts as they are and I will stay out of your way. is that too much to ask? do not pretend that rastafarianisim is compatible with orthodoxy. away with the egotistical comments of false piety When talking about the Faith we must talk in Truth. Orthodoxy heals the broken ego of man by transfiguring it in Christ so the New Man in Christ is capable of dying to himself and capable of True humility and Love.  these two are not compatible or similar in any way whatsoever. so while you have a right to follow rastafariansim to your heart's content but for God sake stop trying to pass it as orthodox or even remotely similar to Orthodoxy. Thank you.


I acknowledge your words above that I have highlighted in bold. I hope you will heed your own admonition. Forgive me if I have come across as falsely pious or self-righteous. I am only a sinner in need of much prayer.



Selam

yeap, acknowledged or not, when we talk about the Faith we must talk in Truth,  however my brother you want to talk about yourself, so go ahead, and keep talking.
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« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2012, 06:24:13 AM »

I apologise if my little thread has been the cause of any ill-will. I am not going to weigh in on the great Rastafari/Orthodox debate as I know very little about it. There don't seem to be many rastas in Scotland. Smiley

I was just wondering what the song meant- if it's blasphemous, as some think, I'll be hitting the skip button. The following interested me though:
Again, while I love the guy, Tosh (relevant to "Get up Stand up") was pretty dern anti-Christian.  Maybe Marley came all around, but I still think a lot of his lyrics are a stretch (at best).

I assumed Marley wrote it, not Tosh. Wikipedia says this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Up_Stand_Up
Quote
Marley wrote the song while flying out of Haiti, deeply moved by its poverty and the lives of Haitians, according his then-girlfriend Esther Anderson.[1] The song was frequently performed at Marley's concerts, often as the last song. "Get Up, Stand Up" was also the last song Marley ever performed on stage, on September 23, 1980 at the Stanley Theater in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

On his DVD Live at the Hollywood Bowl, artist Ben Harper relates a childhood experience in which, during a 1978 Bob Marley concert at the Starlight Amphitheater, Peter Tosh showed up unannounced as this song was being performed, took the microphone from Marley and started singing the last verse of the song to thunderous applause. Tosh was on tour opening for the Rolling Stones at the time

Did Marley not intend the third verse? Apparently he didn't sing in the version on Live!:
http://www.nomorelyrics.net/bob_marley-lyrics/8717-get_up_stand_up-lyrics.html

I'm speculating here. Thanks to everyone for your input.
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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2012, 12:58:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In my opinion, a listener may and should be able to interpret a song however he/she wishes for his/her own private recreational listening, without any regard to the artist's intentions. I do this all the time. Such an approach reflects--again, in my opinion--respect for such music as 'art' in the fullest sense of the term.

Interpreting a song as being morally or spiritually compatible with Orthodoxy may be difficult to do naturally and in good conscience, however, if it is clear that the artist intended it in a contrary manner.

I'm not going to comment on the song under discussion, except to say that I would support HabteSelassie's decision to value it as part of his music collection if he in good conscience is naturally inclined to register its references to Christ in the Orthodox manner he believes them to have been intended--whether or not they were indeed so intended.

Whoa whoa whoa, slow it down.  Y'all have gotten confused by my interpretations.  I never implied that the Wailers original intentions to Get Up Stand Up were theologically Orthodox, or necessarily in support with the Orthodox Church.  Rewind Mr Selectah!  That is what got Sis Hiwot all mixed up too! What I said was that Get Up Stand Up is a spiritual song, not a political song, and the Standing Up part is in reference to acting on your faith, whatever it may be, and in my case, it is Orthodox.  The Rastafari movement is a spiritual Liberation movement.  Again, Rastafari  seek to liberate folks from the bondage and ignorance of Sin, to understand that only God and deal with our political and social situations.  We must act on FAITH.  This is how we get up and stand up, and how we manifest our rights into action.  Our civil rights are as dependent upon our faith as is anything else in life.  That is the original intent of this song by the Wailers, that folks get conscious, that folks get moving, that folks get up and active and dynamic in their faith, wherever their faith in God may bring them.  As for me, my Faith in God brought me into the Orthodox Church, God be praised Smiley

When I compared Get Up Stand Up to what the Deacon's pray as "Stand Up for prayer" it was not necessarily a literal comparison.  It was symbolic, spiritual.  When the Deacons ask us to stand up for prayer, again, they are asking us to be active and dynamic in our faith, in our prayer, to be directly involved spiritually with the Liturgy.  To stand up reaching for God.  When the Wailers sing "Get Up Stand Up" they are saying the same kind of thing, though not literally.  No, the Wailers were not saying that folks should stand up at Liturgy, what they were saying was that folks need to get up and stand up in their faith in God.  In this, the vibe is the same.  To be sure, even though it was at the end of his life, brother Bob Marley did in fact find his way to stand up for prayer at the Service of his own baptism.  He died a baptised Orthodox Christian, and folks should be very careful not to trample on his Memory Eternal.  Apostle Paul was killing Christians before he came to the Church, we don't seem to hold that against him, why should Bob Marley err Birhane Selassie not also be respected and remembered has having passed in the Church?  Yes, his life before that was filled with scandal, whose isn't? However, again, this  brother died a faithful member of the Church, having finally acted on his convictions and taken that important step to join the Church through Baptism.  His wife and several of his children were not only baptised but are also still active members of the Tewahedo Church in Kingston, Jamaica by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2012, 02:10:08 PM »

Apostle Paul was killing Christians before he came to the Church, we don't seem to hold that against him, why should Bob Marley err Birhane Selassie not also be respected and remembered has having passed in the Church?

I agree, but would add that we do not seek to venerate or make acceptable Paul's pre-conversion works. So this comparison isn't very good if you want to convince us that there is nothing wrong with considering secular/political reggae and Rastafarianism as compatible with or comparable to Orthodoxy or any particular part of the Orthodox liturgy just because the writer of this particular song later became Orthodox himself. I mean, let's be real: We're talking about a pop star who you particularly like, not St. Yared here. I'm not going to say it's wrong to like Bob Marley's music (I have a few of his albums myself, though I don't listen to them hardly ever) or be inspired by his person, but some of what is posted in this thread is really stretching beyond that in an attempt to justify syncretism.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:29:23 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2012, 02:44:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In my opinion, a listener may and should be able to interpret a song however he/she wishes for his/her own private recreational listening, without any regard to the artist's intentions. I do this all the time. Such an approach reflects--again, in my opinion--respect for such music as 'art' in the fullest sense of the term.

Interpreting a song as being morally or spiritually compatible with Orthodoxy may be difficult to do naturally and in good conscience, however, if it is clear that the artist intended it in a contrary manner.

I'm not going to comment on the song under discussion, except to say that I would support HabteSelassie's decision to value it as part of his music collection if he in good conscience is naturally inclined to register its references to Christ in the Orthodox manner he believes them to have been intended--whether or not they were indeed so intended.

Whoa whoa whoa, slow it down.  Y'all have gotten confused by my interpretations.  I never implied that the Wailers original intentions to Get Up Stand Up were theologically Orthodox, or necessarily in support with the Orthodox Church.  Rewind Mr Selectah!  That is what got Sis Hiwot all mixed up too! What I said was that Get Up Stand Up is a spiritual song, not a political song, and the Standing Up part is in reference to acting on your faith, whatever it may be, and in my case, it is Orthodox.  The Rastafari movement is a spiritual Liberation movement.  Again, Rastafari  seek to liberate folks from the bondage and ignorance of Sin, to understand that only God and deal with our political and social situations.  We must act on FAITH.  This is how we get up and stand up, and how we manifest our rights into action.  Our civil rights are as dependent upon our faith as is anything else in life.  That is the original intent of this song by the Wailers, that folks get conscious, that folks get moving, that folks get up and active and dynamic in their faith, wherever their faith in God may bring them.  As for me, my Faith in God brought me into the Orthodox Church, God be praised Smiley

When I compared Get Up Stand Up to what the Deacon's pray as "Stand Up for prayer" it was not necessarily a literal comparison.  It was symbolic, spiritual.  When the Deacons ask us to stand up for prayer, again, they are asking us to be active and dynamic in our faith, in our prayer, to be directly involved spiritually with the Liturgy.  To stand up reaching for God.  When the Wailers sing "Get Up Stand Up" they are saying the same kind of thing, though not literally.  No, the Wailers were not saying that folks should stand up at Liturgy, what they were saying was that folks need to get up and stand up in their faith in God.  In this, the vibe is the same.  To be sure, even though it was at the end of his life, brother Bob Marley did in fact find his way to stand up for prayer at the Service of his own baptism.  He died a baptised Orthodox Christian, and folks should be very careful not to trample on his Memory Eternal.  Apostle Paul was killing Christians before he came to the Church, we don't seem to hold that against him, why should Bob Marley err Birhane Selassie not also be respected and remembered has having passed in the Church?  Yes, his life before that was filled with scandal, whose isn't? However, again, this  brother died a faithful member of the Church, having finally acted on his convictions and taken that important step to join the Church through Baptism.  His wife and several of his children were not only baptised but are also still active members of the Tewahedo Church in Kingston, Jamaica by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

dude give it up already! you keep saying rastafarianisim is a spiritual movement only and not political really?! hahaha, Oh Pluzz!!! but even so let us see what kind of spirituality is in rastafarianisim shall we ? you say it preaches liberation from sin? by whome? by the Emperor? which Zion is being referred in rastafarianisim? earthly or heavenly Zion? the tribes of Israel huh is not a pseudospiritual political movement? the mansions you speak of are they then the heavenly mansions Christ talked about? how deep the distortion , and the mockery goes! we know rastafarianisim is a spiritual and a political movement for you to rearrange it today will not change the fact. it only makes you a crafty discever. you say the anti slavery struggle for freedom of mind and the physical manifestations of freedom are not a political movement? stand up against sin you say, how does one stands up against sin with out the Holy Spirit? how can one be truly spiritual without the Holy Spirit? if the message of rastafarianisim who cry out Jah rastafari to the emperor and others who echo them in their allegiance to the message of the black Zionism Rastafarian's preach , if that is what you claim as a spiritual and not political, forgive me and others who would disagree with you. it is all politics which chose to utilise the spiritual side of humanity as well to manipulate it to its end. in this case they chose the JudeoChristian Scripture and Tradition for their distortion and blasphemy towards their political goal.
next by your definition we will hear that Communism was also a spiritual movement alone and not political also which was fighting against sin, , that the freedom it spoke of was a freedom from sin. the international it sung was a cry for the unity of mankind under God. dude!  Rastafarianisim remains a political and spiritual movement that is contrary to the Christian message for humanity period! those it enslaves can not seem to shake the effect of its egotistical aspirations, that feeds on hate and victim mentality, barring them from being transformed with the conviction of heart to the Christian message because they can not seem to abandon their ideological idols, they love them too much. Christ is simply asking them too much when he asks them to separate themselves from that worldly junk that masquerades for spirituality.

the Bob Marley conversion is one thing his life and his work before his conversion is another, in the same manner Saint Paul's conversion brings glory to God because of how much radically transformed he was in the Gospel that he persecuted before. even he speaks of the nature of his prior life, especially as a persecutor of the Church. we will never say that St.Paul was orthodox before his conversion, instead we say he was get this ' a persecutor of the Church' how Glorious his conversion is because of how radically transformed he became. now you want to argue that bob Marley just because he converted at the end of his life into orthodoxy , that all of a sudden transforms his prior heretical works into one of orthodoxy? give me a break! preach that somewhere else, do not insult the intelligence of your orthodox christian audience here please spare yourself the embarrassment.

we oppose Rastafarianisim, because it is a heretical spiritual teaching! we oppose Rastafarianisim because it is a racially motivated psuedospiritual political Cult that longs for the earthly Zion of the so called black tribes of Israel! we oppose Rastafarianisim because people like you try to pass it as compatible with the Orthodox Faith, preaching how spiritually similar they are in their quest for liberation from sin  what a jock! I would have laughed if it was not so pathetically sad and blasphemous!

you never say you have erred , your ego will never allow it, so it must be other people who misunderstand you when you outrightly lie as to the political movement that is rastafarianisim. it must be others who are confused when they say you are wrong to compare the call of rastafarians  high on weed from their club stages to get up and stand up pumping up their fist, as the same as the call for Worship in the Spirit by the Deacon of the Orthodox Church in the Divine Liturgy! thus by default you want us to think Rastafarianisim is of such a spiritual movement of dying to the self, and the lusts of the flesh, and living in the Spirit transformed life of repentance and purity, found in Christ? how noble of you as a loyal servant of the Rastafarianisim spirituality and politics, and as member of the 12 tribes of Israel as you call yourself advocate of the mansions of rastafarianisim, howelse are you supposed to react ?

But know this, Christ has already called you to be radically different than those you meet in those mansions in the business as usual for rastafarians in their gathering for spiritual worship as you seem to say is all they are doing. you are not to participate in worship or spirituality of any other group than the orthodox Christian spirituality. if they are like you said only spiritual movement then you are even in great danger and those whom you are affirming in their errors are even more in danger, because what are you doing participating in what you have admittedly said is a spiritual movement that is not Orthodoxy? or are you in the end saying that it is ( Rastafarianisim) Orthodoxy? well are you? so what are you saying? should we join the Baha'i movement because of their spirituality and say they are after all similar to orthodoxy thus we can join them and still be Orthodox Christians?  Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2012, 03:04:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Thank you sister, for you kind and thoughtful words.  By the way, since you always seem so preoccupied with other people's sins,  I hope and sincerely pray that you recall that those sins that Jesus wrote on the ground to silence the crowd in John 8, well admittedly they were indeed my sins God help me for that,  but while  I can't be sure  some of them were perhaps  yours too  Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Thank you sister, for you kind and thoughtful words.  By the way, since you always seem so preoccupied with other people's sins,  I hope and sincerely pray that you recall that those sins that Jesus wrote on the ground to silence the crowd in John 8, well admittedly they were indeed my sins God help me for that,  but while  I can't be sure  some of them were perhaps  yours too  Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie



Oh habte, resorting  back to the usual lets talk about how Pious I am talk, instead of answering the question. I noticed you have not answered a single one of those questions, and by doing so you have declared your position. chose the tree, life or death. you can not climb the two together. The matter of the Faith once more overshadowed by crafty false piety. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2012, 03:51:04 PM »

Can we all agree that the fact that we are all sinners is assumed by everyone, no matter what the conversation is actually about? Because I don't see what bringing up sins and all that (yours or others) has to do with the topic of Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy. If we were talking about another aspect of the faith, say...I don't know...vestments, would the conversation still proceed this way? I don't think so. Just imagine it:

Person A: This clown suit reminds me of our Priest's vestments.

Person B: Uh...what? How do you figure?

Person A: Because the clown wears this suit when performing the clown ritual.

Person B: Yeah, I'm really not seeing it. I don't think the two really have anything to do with each other.

Person A: Well you are busy focusing on other people's sins. Maybe you also have your own sins you should focus on!

Person B: Of course I have my own sins...that's not what we're actually talking about...

Repeat ad nauseam.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2012, 04:04:01 PM »

Can we all agree that the fact that we are all sinners is assumed by everyone, no matter what the conversation is actually about? Because I don't see what bringing up sins and all that (yours or others) has to do with the topic of Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy. If we were talking about another aspect of the faith, say...I don't know...vestments, would the conversation still proceed this way? I don't think so. Just imagine it:

Person A: This clown suit reminds me of our Priest's vestments.

Person B: Uh...what? How do you figure?

Person A: Because the clown wears this suit when performing the clown ritual.

Person B: Yeah, I'm really not seeing it. I don't think the two really have anything to do with each other.

Person A: Well you are busy focusing on other people's sins. Maybe you also have your own sins you should focus on!

Person B: Of course I have my own sins...that's not what we're actually talking about...

Repeat ad nauseam.  Roll Eyes

 +1

LOL! yep that pretty much sums up this unfortunate situation  Grin
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« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2012, 04:06:43 PM »

Hiwot,

I think you make some valid points about maintaining the purity of the faith. I thank you for that, at least.

Now: perhaps HabteSelassie and Gebre Menfes Kidus really are a pair of nefarious wolves in sheep's clothing, out to corrupt us all into a bunch of ganga-smoking black supremacists and I, in my innocence, have failed to see it. Whatever. They seem alright to me, whether I agree with them or not.

However, your posts have developed a vicious, snarky and needlessly personal tone to them. If I weren't already Orthodox, reading your comments would not encourage me to find out more. I haven't heard such poorly-concealed hatred since someone shoved a Jack Chick tract into my hand.

Kindly knock it off or please get off my thread.
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« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2012, 04:35:38 PM »

Hiwot,

I think you make some valid points about maintaining the purity of the faith. I thank you for that, at least.

Now: perhaps HabteSelassie and Gebre Menfes Kidus really are a pair of nefarious wolves in sheep's clothing, out to corrupt us all into a bunch of ganga-smoking black supremacists and I, in my innocence, have failed to see it. Whatever. They seem alright to me, whether I agree with them or not.

However, your posts have developed a vicious, snarky and needlessly personal tone to them. If I weren't already Orthodox, reading your comments would not encourage me to find out more. I haven't heard such poorly-concealed hatred since someone shoved a Jack Chick tract into my hand.

Kindly knock it off or please get off my thread.

I respect your opinion on the matter, however, what they are falsely representing is my church's teaching and its views on rastafariansim as if it is acceptable by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahdo Church, going far as to use the Church's Iconography and Divine Liturgy as well as the attempt to evangelise the Caribbeans as examples of the Church's embracing Rastafarianisim. now this is very personal to me and anyone them or any other person who teaches differently than the orthodox Faith in the name of the Church has no other description than a wolf with a sheep clothing. if I am mistaken in my understanding of what heresies are and those who propagate them are then correct me and I will be corrected. what habte and gebre do in their personal life is not my business I have never referred to them as smoking ganja etc however ganja smoking is a sacrament in rastafarianisim those singers have been doing so and I was addressing those people they have defended with a valid theological reason of the sacraments as imparting grace of the Holy Spirit.even if hating habte and gebre is what I wanted to do in life, i do not know them to hate them as you say I do. if anything God knows I wish to be the one voice among many of an Orthodox Christian they hear that will never affirm them in their errors when it comes to the Faith. I wish them to see how different the path they are in from orthodoxy, if they embrace orthodoxy truly then what they seek is already here. but if they settle for the fake brand and teach others the same then they have no communion with the Body of Christ so teaches the Orthodox Church.

I hate the heterodoxy they preach with such a crafty manner, never them as a person. I am sorry you perceived it that way. if they stop misrepresenting the Orthodox Faith and Church in their defense of their Rastafarian beliefs then I assure you I will quite naturally will stay out of 'your thread'.
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« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2012, 08:09:32 AM »

"Let others mock you and oppose you. When you are under the influence of any passion, do not be in the least offended with those who mock or oppose you, for they do you good. Crucify your self-love and acknowledge the wrong, the error of your heart. But have the deepest pity for those who mock at words and works of faith and piety, of righteousness, for those who oppose the good which you are doing. God preserve you from getting exasperated at them."  -Saint John of Kronstadt-



Selam
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« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2012, 09:03:13 AM »

I have no dog in this fight (thankfully) although I do like Bob Marley's music. I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox convert as you probably know. I came to the Church whilst living and working in Romania. Now as that was not my native culture I was learning about Romanian history, culture and Orthodoxy all as something foreign and one thing that was startlingly apparent was that, unlike in my Protestant background, anything that looked remotely pagan was not automatically condemned but actually was often absorbed into the practice of the Church where it did not contradict it. Aspects of pre-Christian culture were baptised (just look at the painted - and no I don't mean died red - eggs as an obvious example). Now this was obviously centuries ago and the baptism of (some) Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Church is much more recent, but I fail to see why a similar process couldn't happen with Rastafarian culture (I don't know many Rastafarians but as an outsider they seem to have a distinct culture quite apart from any particular religious beliefs). I could imagine a future Orthodox Church in the Carribean with distinctictive traditions due to a Rastafarian past, just as I see Ethiopia (or Serbia, or Romania and so on) now has distinctive traditions due to its pre-Christian past. It wouldn't mean it was any less Orthodox.

Now I'm not saying that Rastafarian beliefs are compatible with the Orthodox Faith - clearly this is not true - but I think non-religious aspects of Rastafarian culture must be. To say that it is either totally compatible or totally incompatible seems equally fallacious to me.

James
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« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2012, 09:26:14 AM »

I have no dog in this fight (thankfully) although I do like Bob Marley's music. I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox convert as you probably know. I came to the Church whilst living and working in Romania. Now as that was not my native culture I was learning about Romanian history, culture and Orthodoxy all as something foreign and one thing that was startlingly apparent was that, unlike in my Protestant background, anything that looked remotely pagan was not automatically condemned but actually was often absorbed into the practice of the Church where it did not contradict it. Aspects of pre-Christian culture were baptised (just look at the painted - and no I don't mean died red - eggs as an obvious example). Now this was obviously centuries ago and the baptism of (some) Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Church is much more recent, but I fail to see why a similar process couldn't happen with Rastafarian culture (I don't know many Rastafarians but as an outsider they seem to have a distinct culture quite apart from any particular religious beliefs). I could imagine a future Orthodox Church in the Carribean with distinctictive traditions due to a Rastafarian past, just as I see Ethiopia (or Serbia, or Romania and so on) now has distinctive traditions due to its pre-Christian past. It wouldn't mean it was any less Orthodox.

Now I'm not saying that Rastafarian beliefs are compatible with the Orthodox Faith - clearly this is not true - but I think non-religious aspects of Rastafarian culture must be. To say that it is either totally compatible or totally incompatible seems equally fallacious to me.

James


Good points my friend. Habte and I have insistenly reiterated that we do NOT worship Haile Selassie. We are baptized members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, and we defend Orthodox Tewahedo truth to the fullest.

At the risk of self justification and self-defense, I am posting a link to my Testimony of Baptism into The Ethiopian Orthodox Church. I sent this testimony to my Priest before I was baptized, and upon reading it he told me that he would baptize me (this was after I had been a catechumen for two years.)

It saddens me whenever a brother or sister casts aspersion on my faith or my Christian convictions. But I know that I must ultimately answer to God rather than man. I truly believe that our sister Hiwot only means well and that she is truly concerned with preserving sound doctrine. So, I harbor no ill will towars her.



http://mysteryandmeaning.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-spiritual-journey.html



Selam



 
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« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »

"Let others mock you and oppose you. When you are under the influence of any passion, do not be in the least offended with those who mock or oppose you, for they do you good. Crucify your self-love and acknowledge the wrong, the error of your heart. But have the deepest pity for those who mock at words and works of faith and piety, of righteousness, for those who oppose the good which you are doing. God preserve you from getting exasperated at them."  -Saint John of Kronstadt-



Selam

Sounds like sage advice. Knowing my temper, the next time it comes to mind will probably be about ten seconds too late. Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2012, 02:55:49 PM »

I have no dog in this fight (thankfully) although I do like Bob Marley's music. I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox convert as you probably know. I came to the Church whilst living and working in Romania. Now as that was not my native culture I was learning about Romanian history, culture and Orthodoxy all as something foreign and one thing that was startlingly apparent was that, unlike in my Protestant background, anything that looked remotely pagan was not automatically condemned but actually was often absorbed into the practice of the Church where it did not contradict it. Aspects of pre-Christian culture were baptised (just look at the painted - and no I don't mean died red - eggs as an obvious example). Now this was obviously centuries ago and the baptism of (some) Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Church is much more recent, but I fail to see why a similar process couldn't happen with Rastafarian culture (I don't know many Rastafarians but as an outsider they seem to have a distinct culture quite apart from any particular religious beliefs). I could imagine a future Orthodox Church in the Carribean with distinctictive traditions due to a Rastafarian past, just as I see Ethiopia (or Serbia, or Romania and so on) now has distinctive traditions due to its pre-Christian past. It wouldn't mean it was any less Orthodox.

Now I'm not saying that Rastafarian beliefs are compatible with the Orthodox Faith - clearly this is not true - but I think non-religious aspects of Rastafarian culture must be. To say that it is either totally compatible or totally incompatible seems equally fallacious to me.

James

thank you dear James I unfortunately can not claim that I do not have a dog in this fight  Grin a cross one must bear the best way one can, so to speak.



First of all I agree that all cultures and traditions can be transformed by Christianity that is in fact how Christianity has operated throughout the world. I was not being ignorant of this when I commented that the Rastafarianism as embraced by habte and gebre, the Rastafarianism that goes beyond the worship of the emperor is still incompatible with orthodoxy.  This is evidenced by how they interpret and compare Rastafarianism with the Orthodox Faith. Now I also know that this is not as relevant to the most Eastern Orthodox Folks as it does not directly affect them, it is easy to say let them battle it out.  But I would hope the Christian witness does not stop by jurisdictions.But Let me ask if they were going around saying claiming according to the orthodox understanding Bob Marley is the modern day psalmist, like King David, the song he sung are similar if not the same in message and intent as the Divine Liturgy. Then cry out Jah RAstafari when the opportunity arises, claiming they are doing it to God not the Emperor. Would this be acceptable with the Eastern Orthodox as an Orthodox Expression of their Faith?


through out the world When those things that can be transformed by Christianity are maintained the rest of the incompatible was always thrown out.

If Rastafarianism is a spiritual movement is it going to be embraced in the Church as a Rastafarianism?

Even if we say that the Emperor Rastafari was Orthodox, should we still create a sect that says they are Orthodox but will continue to say Jah Rastafari in their prayers, and will continue to call them Rastafarians in the spiritual sense of the term. What did Saint Paul say about calling oneself Apollo’s or Paul’s? Can we do that in the Church? Will this be acceptable by  the canons of the EOchurch?

But this is all a rethorical question, as I know the answer. Still one does need to pause and reflect on these things.

Rastafarianism has in it a culture that can be transformed into Christianity, such as vegetarianism however the vegetarian Orthodox Christian cannot continue to call themselves spiritually Rastafarian. Because let’s face it Rastafarianism as spiritual philosophy whether or not it worships the Emperor is a heretical blasphemous cult.

I will say it again
The worship of the Emperor hailesilase 1 was not the only point of rastafarianisim , there were many who did not worship the emperor yet still were Rastafarians politicaly. some would like to down play the political significance of the rastafarianisim movement  in a flip flop attempt to deny its political aspirations towards social justice and social freedom in the political sense of the term. How it dreams about achieving those is also a matter of great importance to consider.


Rastafarianism Whether or not it worships the Emperor  as a spiritual philosophy with all its sophistries it is a heretical and blasphemous cult.
Many want to go on as they were before after their baptism into Orthodoxy, they see it as an affirmation of their prior held beliefs because they say ‘I have never worshiped the Emperor anyway, so the rest of the stuff I profess as a Rastafarian is Orthodoxy’
It is very much easier when one deals with heretics such as Jehovah witness because they admit what they believe in and what they do not, but here is the difficulty with how habte and gebre been portraying themselves as Rastafarians. One day it is this the next day it’s another to the question what Rastafarianism is, the one that does not worship the emperor. What do they mean when they say The Lord Jehovah Rastafari ( JAh Rastafari!) who knows the definitions change every day as it fits their argument..
1  its only a Culture
2,t’s a spiritual movement not politics
3 it’s a spiritual and political movement
4 it’s a Liberation movement from sin
5 its orthodox spirituality.( liturgy, psalm of David)


So to conclude, When someone is blatantly preaching heresy, it is my duty to speak up, of course I can remain indifferent also, with my lukewarm existence this would not have been a surprise, however, I was not able to remain in my usual lukewarm state over this matter of Faith. Still I will not resort to the game of false piety in order to avoid direct and relevant questions like habte and gebre have been engaged in. it’s repulsive to me, it’s like lying against the Spirit and drinking death.  Those that must discern the valid points of discussion can do so by cutting through all the pomp. Those who are easily appeased and deceived by false piety that is without the True Faith, then they see as they see. I have always been taught that true piety will have to be always accompanied with the True Faith, unblemished by human philosophies and sophistries.  In this thread there was much of that, and challenging it has only lead to perhaps scandalizing the young, making some utter erroneous statement on what is so important to the salvation of Mankind that the martyrs have given their very lives for it. I can only say  I will oppose the idea that the Spiritual and Political Cult Rastafarianism is in any form or shape Orthodox, no matter how many people say they are baptized into Orthodox Christianity, if they still hold on to the Rastafarianism as a spiritual guide in their lives then I say Anathema! I do not care if they hold on to it as a political view but even then it stands on a shaky ground as the whole Zionism is based on false interpretation of the Judeo-Christian Scripture. But that’s politics so it belongs to Cesar. However the Holy Spirit is the source of our spirituality in Orthodoxy and without it those who hold on to sophistries and  heretical human philosophies as the part and parcel of their Orthodox Spirituality we have a name for them .


I know the new age is something that embraces everything and everybody and that is considered the enlightened thing to do , the polite thing to do, or even the easier thing to do, because nothing matters, all are right, so long as they say peace and love, we are expected to say uhhh how cute you are orthodox too then because dude we are about peace and love too, but Thankfully Orthodoxy is the Faith of the Martyrs, the Faith that Established the Universe.

The other side of the coin is to say you are a sinner I am a sinner so let us not worry about these matters of Faith, after all how important can it be when compared to your sin or my sin. If I chose to worship in any way I want to worship , how can you who is not a saint with halloos talk to me about the Faith? I do not have to answer these questions about Faith, I repeat I am a sinner you are a sinner. With these attitudes the Nicene Creed would not have existed. And I for one will oppose it as vehemently as I can sorry it offends the sensibilities of some in here, but more energy is being invested in the court houses for matters of vanity by those who cared about them. Orthodoxy is everything to me. Personal affections I again or lose over it are really of matters of little consequence.



I will just add certain threads that this type of discussion has been going on and leave it at that, in all of them notice how the flip flop of its culture, no its politics, no its spirituality a liberation from sin not any political intent stuff like that. Also notice on how the attempt is continuously made to make the Rastafarian movement as pass as part of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition. How the bishops are being called a Rastafarian bishops by those whose interest it is to link this heresy with the teachings of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40748.0.html
this one too has some important information in it http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29329.0.html#top
this one is a private forum you need access code for it ask one of the moderators as to who to ask for the access http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42903.msg706112.html#msg706112



Finally as they say a word to the wise, so simply put, I know and support that there is a great effort by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church to evangelize all men into the Orthodox Faith. Especially those who carry the name of one of the Emperors of Ethiopia and have a philosophy that encompasses both spirituality and politics, the Church has given it as much attention as she could under the difficult historical and political circumstances she has found herself in. those sent by her have  done the best they could to preach the Gospel of our Lord and free men from their own grandiose delusions of false beliefs and blasphemies . those who remained by her Orthodox teachings are orthodox, those who have decided they can have it all and have continued to embrace their sophistries and heresies while declaring themselves orthodox, have anathemised themselves as the church have never taught nor will never teach such heretical human philosophies in place of her theology. She will never bow or confirm to the world and its ideas, rather she will transform the world into confirming to Christ the Victorious.

I am done with this thread, bras monkey will be happy to know as I have been raining on his parade by coming to his joint and disturbing the ‘peace’ so I will leave with my Peace. And brassmonkey if what is said above is like that tract to you, do what you would do with it and all things not worthy of your attention,  ignore it.But sorry for ruffling the feathers of those you deemed ‘Ok’ by you. Grin Grin
 
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« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2012, 12:10:20 AM »

I must respectfully point out that sister Hiwot's diatribes against brother Habte and myself are based on gross misunderstandings and misinterpretations of what we actually believe. And as many times as we have corrected her false assumptions about our own beliefs and her erroneous undertanding of Rastafari, then I cannot help but think that her misrepresentations are intentional. I have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, a benefit which she refuses to extend to us. But I will continue to view her as my sister in Christ even though she casts aspersion on my Baptism and questions my Orthodox faith. I wish her well always.


Selam
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« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2012, 12:44:14 AM »

Hey folks, we're all brothers and sisters in the faith right? That's kind of the only sense by which you're my brother, or Hiwot's my sister, or whatever. My brother lives in California and works as a drum technician for a 1980s stadium rock band.  Roll Eyes

So it is the faith that unites us. So that's what we argue about, sometimes. And in this thread, the argument is "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are compatible or in some sense complementary" or "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are not compatible or in some sense complementary". It's not about you or your personal commitment to Orthodoxy, or your baptism, or any of that other stuff. It's not personal at all, but that you feel it is because it's your thing (your political/social/musical movement or preference or hobby or whatever you see it as) that is being called into question concerning its acceptability within an Orthodox context. I'm not even going to say that this isn't a rational or understandable reaction, either; if I'm honest, I'd have to imagine that I would be ticked off or hurt if someone was telling me that I can't be Orthodox and a linguist, or Orthodox and an American, or Orthodox and a member of OC.net, or whatever. At the same time, none of those things have particular political, social, theological, pharmaceutical, or other positions connected to them that might even conflict with the faith in the first place.

Given that, let us please stop reacting as though there is some kind of unique persecution faced by the Rastas here that is somehow connected to your persons and not questions regarding the ideas you express. If this thread was all about how you like wearing Bob Marley t-shirts and those Rastafarian hats and listening to Peter Tosh or whoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're having this conversation because some of the ideas expressed in this thread are troubling to other people who are not Rastafarian.

As I always love to quote (from HH Pope Shenouda III), we fight against ideas, not people. No one is against you here, Gebre and Habte and whoever else identifies as Rastafarian. Some people are, however, against the association of Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism as has been expressed in this thread and others by those claiming to belong to both communities.
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« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2012, 01:56:17 AM »

Hey folks, we're all brothers and sisters in the faith right? That's kind of the only sense by which you're my brother, or Hiwot's my sister, or whatever. My brother lives in California and works as a drum technician for a 1980s stadium rock band.  Roll Eyes

So it is the faith that unites us. So that's what we argue about, sometimes. And in this thread, the argument is "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are compatible or in some sense complementary" or "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are not compatible or in some sense complementary". It's not about you or your personal commitment to Orthodoxy, or your baptism, or any of that other stuff. It's not personal at all, but that you feel it is because it's your thing (your political/social/musical movement or preference or hobby or whatever you see it as) that is being called into question concerning its acceptability within an Orthodox context. I'm not even going to say that this isn't a rational or understandable reaction, either; if I'm honest, I'd have to imagine that I would be ticked off or hurt if someone was telling me that I can't be Orthodox and a linguist, or Orthodox and an American, or Orthodox and a member of OC.net, or whatever. At the same time, none of those things have particular political, social, theological, pharmaceutical, or other positions connected to them that might even conflict with the faith in the first place.

Given that, let us please stop reacting as though there is some kind of unique persecution faced by the Rastas here that is somehow connected to your persons and not questions regarding the ideas you express. If this thread was all about how you like wearing Bob Marley t-shirts and those Rastafarian hats and listening to Peter Tosh or whoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're having this conversation because some of the ideas expressed in this thread are troubling to other people who are not Rastafarian.

As I always love to quote (from HH Pope Shenouda III), we fight against ideas, not people. No one is against you here, Gebre and Habte and whoever else identifies as Rastafarian. Some people are, however, against the association of Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism as has been expressed in this thread and others by those claiming to belong to both communities.

I humbly reiterate that the problem is the deliberate misrepresentation of our views. That is not arguing or debating doctrine, that is simply dishonest venom spouted against one's fellow Orthodox brethren. I'll let Habte speak for himself, but I continue to defy anyone to show me where I have promoted or advocated the idolatry of emperor worship or any other false doctrines. I adhere and cling to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, period. But sister Hiwot refuses to accept that for some reason. So, I don't feel persecuted, just annoyed and saddened by it.


Selam
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« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2012, 03:03:17 AM »

Hey folks, we're all brothers and sisters in the faith right? That's kind of the only sense by which you're my brother, or Hiwot's my sister, or whatever. My brother lives in California and works as a drum technician for a 1980s stadium rock band.  Roll Eyes

So it is the faith that unites us. So that's what we argue about, sometimes. And in this thread, the argument is "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are compatible or in some sense complementary" or "Rastafrianism and Orthodoxy are not compatible or in some sense complementary". It's not about you or your personal commitment to Orthodoxy, or your baptism, or any of that other stuff. It's not personal at all, but that you feel it is because it's your thing (your political/social/musical movement or preference or hobby or whatever you see it as) that is being called into question concerning its acceptability within an Orthodox context. I'm not even going to say that this isn't a rational or understandable reaction, either; if I'm honest, I'd have to imagine that I would be ticked off or hurt if someone was telling me that I can't be Orthodox and a linguist, or Orthodox and an American, or Orthodox and a member of OC.net, or whatever. At the same time, none of those things have particular political, social, theological, pharmaceutical, or other positions connected to them that might even conflict with the faith in the first place.

Given that, let us please stop reacting as though there is some kind of unique persecution faced by the Rastas here that is somehow connected to your persons and not questions regarding the ideas you express. If this thread was all about how you like wearing Bob Marley t-shirts and those Rastafarian hats and listening to Peter Tosh or whoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're having this conversation because some of the ideas expressed in this thread are troubling to other people who are not Rastafarian.

As I always love to quote (from HH Pope Shenouda III), we fight against ideas, not people. No one is against you here, Gebre and Habte and whoever else identifies as Rastafarian. Some people are, however, against the association of Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism as has been expressed in this thread and others by those claiming to belong to both communities.

I humbly reiterate that the problem is the deliberate misrepresentation of our views. That is not arguing or debating doctrine, that is simply dishonest venom spouted against one's fellow Orthodox brethren. I'll let Habte speak for himself, but I continue to defy anyone to show me where I have promoted or advocated the idolatry of emperor worship or any other false doctrines. I adhere and cling to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, period. But sister Hiwot refuses to accept that for some reason. So, I don't feel persecuted, just annoyed and saddened by it.


Selam

A point that has been made plenty of times, gebre, How can one wake someone who refuses to wake up? I am sure you can read though as do all of us here, so any serious christian who cares about the Gosple's message can read the disagrement is a disagrement of Faith by rereading the threadthe simple fact orthodox spirituality and rastafarianisim as spirituality zero compatibility, rastafarianisim is not only the emperor worship it goes deeper than that we all know. now your Jah rastafari!  songs and prayers not withstanding your defense of the orthodoxy of heterodox songs and singers such as bob Marley prior to his being baptized , elevating him to that of modern day psalmist one with your poster equated him to the Holy  Prophet of the Lord David,not withstanding you can go back and read what prompted our argument, if we agree as you say in faith.at this point how can I go back on to this never ending denial you have buried yourself in out of ego and not lack of knowledge. so at this point listen and listen well...What is given to me I have tried to give to you it was rejected so I am forever going to hold my peace over your ( habtes and yours) rastafarianisim as it relates to orthodox Christianity, all my hopes of correcting you are now gone. As the Holy Trinity is my witness my heart was never moved by hate or malice towards you or habte, I only wished to correct your twisted ways and attachments to your Rastafarianisim that you both confess is a spiritual movement you joined even while not being required to worship the emperor, there was the other spirituality that you have found plausible and that you still do and continue to deceive yourself saying its spiritual philosophy is compatible with orthodoxy. if you do not wish to correct your ways I am not God who can make it happen. However know this, my peace has returned to me, I take nothing of yours. I promise you I will not post any longer over here,say or call me anything you like my brother, To God be the Glory in all things!
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« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2012, 03:03:12 AM »

A charge of heresy is a very serious charge; more serious than a charge of theft or adultery even--if we are to take one particular aphorism from the Desert Fathers seriously...
 
From what I've read from both HabteSelassie and GMK, I don't think it's fair to accuse either of them of heresy.
 
Whether or not their interpretations of various aspects or expressions of "Rastafarianism" are credible or legitimate, the interpretations themselves are not heretical as far as I can honestly tell.

This is the point I made in HS' defence of his support for the song that is the subject of this thread (a point which he somehow completely missed given the nature of his response), and I think the point serves well to come to the defence of any personal adoption and adaptation of any given aspect of Rastafarian culture--subject to conditions.

One main condition that comes to mind relates to St Paul's various remarks about being careful to not do or say something that might either cause scandal or be a stumbling block to others—even if there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

If the prevalent acceptance and understanding of something is of an heretical nature, such that an Orthodox Christian's engagement with it should in effect encourage such heretical acceptance and understanding by others, or should scandalise the Church at large, then he/she should abandon such a thing in the greater interests of Truth.

The Orthodox Faith should always be the subject of our supreme allegiance. Human cultures have and maintain spiritual integrity only as far as they serve and promote the Faith.
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« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2012, 03:31:45 AM »

I humbly reiterate that the problem is the deliberate misrepresentation of our views. That is not arguing or debating doctrine, that is simply dishonest venom spouted against one's fellow Orthodox brethren. I'll let Habte speak for himself, but I continue to defy anyone to show me where I have promoted or advocated the idolatry of emperor worship or any other false doctrines. I adhere and cling to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, period. But sister Hiwot refuses to accept that for some reason. So, I don't feel persecuted, just annoyed and saddened by it.


Selam

Selam, Gebre.

Please forgive me, I missed this before. Without making it into something personal between you and Hiwot (since, again, I insist that this is not a personal matter, though I can respect that it probably feels personal), I want to reiterate what I said in the post you are replying to here: The source of disagreement boils down to whether or not we share the idea that Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism are compatible. Any additional issues regarding misrepresentation of views particular to this thread can and should be set aside to answer this very simple and central question on which all of this conflict hinges.

I have to believe that those who identify on this messageboard as both Orthodox and Rastafarian do believe that the two are compatible or complementary in some way, or else they would not identify as they do. The individual's method of demonstrating or living that is up to him (I recognize that not all Rastafarians believe the exact same things), but that is of no consequence to those who believe to the contrary -- that Orthodoxy and Rastafarianism are not acceptable complements of one another, whether in the individual or as a general comment on Rastafarianism's points of similarity or difference with Orthodoxy.

So I regret having posted as I previously did about the "ideas that you express", because the more I think about it the less this is about that. If we could be saved from charges of heresy or unorthodoxy by appealing to our own understandings of our own arguments, then there probably wouldn't be any grounds for charges of heresy or unorthodoxy to begin with (which is not to say that I support any particular charge, of course). The trouble is, of course, that we non-Rastafarians cannot occupy your heads and find out what you really mean and how it's really Orthodox. Chances are even if we could do the first, we might not find the second to be the case. But again, that doesn't matter, because our own personal interpretations of things amount to not a hill of beans. If Rastafarianism were Orthodox, it would be Orthodoxy. It's not, as I'm sure you'd agree. The question of how much you might be able to include before crossing some threshold into heterodoxy is something well beyond the likes of me, but again for me that is another reason why I would stay well away from it. Uncontroversially Orthodox practices and beliefs are enough of a challenge to conform myself to.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as more "guy who doesn't understand is unwilling to listen, yet writes an essay about it". I don't mean to, of course; I just don't see the much-touted misunderstanding being all on the side of the anti-Rastafarianism section of this discussion. I will of course take my own share of blame for this, but I think the nature of the disagreement is also being mischaracterized.
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« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2012, 01:43:05 PM »

Thank you both for the reasonable thougts EkhristosAnesti and dzheremi.


This is what I posted on Facebook the other day:

"When Rastafari is recognized as true adherence to the teachings of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, then it inevitably leads to authentic Orthodox Tewahedo Christian Truth. But if Rastafari is defined as a purely subjective ‘spirituality’ that allows for beliefs and ideas that diametrically oppose Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, then it often leads people away from the Truth and into demonic errors. However, before we pass judgment on misguided Rastas, let us not forget that there are many more misguided ‘Christians’ who teach heresies in the very name of Our Lord.”


"Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him." [Acts 10:34-35]


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Selam


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« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2012, 02:41:18 PM »

"When Rastafari is recognized as true adherence to the teachings of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, then it inevitably leads to authentic Orthodox Tewahedo Christian Truth.

What does this mean? How about the teachings of Christ?  Cut out the middle man.

You do yourself no favors.
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« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »

"When Rastafari is recognized as true adherence to the teachings of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, then it inevitably leads to authentic Orthodox Tewahedo Christian Truth.

What does this mean? How about the teachings of Christ?  Cut out the middle man.

You do yourself no favors.


Do you not realize that many if not most Orthodox Christians come to a knowledge of the Faith through many different paths, experiences, and struggles? Perhaps you should tell God to cut out the middle man.

I have a great desire to see my Rasta brothers who are still misguidedly worshipping the Emperor come to the true Orthodox Faith. What better instruments to lead these Rastas away from idoaltry and into the Tewahedo fold than the very words of His Majesty who they worship and the very Bible that they adore?

I don't need to do myself any favors here. I am mercifully accepted by Christ and His Church, so whether or not you or others accept me is not my concern.


Selam
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« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2012, 03:02:10 PM »

It is certainly true that many come to faith through various heresies or otherwise unorthodox belief systems. I was Roman Catholic before becoming Orthodox, and I do not think that I would have been prepared to properly appreciate Orthodoxy had it not been for my time in the Roman Catholic Church. So I am eternally thankful to the RCC for that. However, when it came time for me to be baptized into the true faith, I renounced my former errors and allegiances completely, just as any candidate must do (it's right there in the text of the baptismal service). I do not call myself Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I wish that all calling themselves Rastafarian would see a useful parallel in this.
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« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2012, 03:17:11 PM »

It is certainly true that many come to faith through various heresies or otherwise unorthodox belief systems. I was Roman Catholic before becoming Orthodox, and I do not think that I would have been prepared to properly appreciate Orthodoxy had it not been for my time in the Roman Catholic Church. So I am eternally thankful to the RCC for that. However, when it came time for me to be baptized into the true faith, I renounced my former errors and allegiances completely, just as any candidate must do (it's right there in the text of the baptismal service). I do not call myself Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I wish that all calling themselves Rastafarian would see a useful parallel in this.


Ahh, yes... but do you not recite the Creed and confess One holy, catholic, apostolic Church?  Wink


I cling to no heresies brother. I too renounced any and all heresies at my baptism. So that's why I take issue with those who are attempting to accuse me of heresy and idolatry based upon their misunderstanding of Rastafari.

It would be like me condemning an Arabic speaking Christian for referring to God as "Allah," and accusing him of being a terrorist.


Selam
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« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2012, 03:40:36 PM »

Ahh, yes... but do you not recite the Creed and confess One holy, catholic, apostolic Church?  Wink

Always, my friend. I didn't give up being catholic. Rome did.

Quote
I cling to no heresies brother. I too renounced any and all heresies at my baptism. So that's why I take issue with those who are attempting to accuse me of heresy and idolatry based upon their misunderstanding of Rastafari.

As I stated in my hopefully clarified post, the distinction to be made is not in what you personally see Rastafari as standing for (as it is not right that any of us should make up our own Orthodoxy), but whether or not Rastafarianism is compatible with Orthodoxy. It is easy to try to make whatever we want to believe fit in with the Apostolic faith. Speaking of Rome...I have been through more than enough time in a church that does this. "Oh, look! St. Irenaeus said this in the second century, therefore ROME ROME ROME ROME ROME." Nope. Doesn't fly. The Orthodox faith is what Christ our God taught, and the Apostles taught from Him. It is not that plus whatever we personally feel is compatible with it by a selective and fanciful reading or reduction of the Fathers or any other aspect of the faith. That is a Protestant way of viewing the faith, and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Quote
It would be like me condemning an Arabic speaking Christian for referring to God as "Allah," and accusing him of being a terrorist.

Just like the last time you brought this up, this doesn't make sense. We were using the word "Allah" before Muhammad and his spiritual descendents ever existed. Who was using "Jah Rastafari" or espousing Rastafarianism before Ras Tafari/Haile Selassie existed? Nobody. It dates back to the 1930s, at most. The Orthodox faith, on the other hand, established the universe. Hence the choice seems clear to me, and it does not look good for those who claim to be both Orthodox and Rastafarian.

You claim to be interpreting Rastafarianism in a correct, orthodox fashion, and I don't doubt that (mostly because I don't care about it on its own, only when it is claimed to be compatible with Orthodoxy), but I don't see a lot of care for how Orthodoxy is handled in the process. This is the problem we are having, not that we are not we are somehow misunderstanding Rastafarianism, as though that is the concern here (it isn't). Once again, I think the nature of our disagreement is not being fully appreciated.
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« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2012, 03:52:59 PM »

Ahh, yes... but do you not recite the Creed and confess One holy, catholic, apostolic Church?  Wink

Always, my friend. I didn't give up being catholic. Rome did.

Quote
I cling to no heresies brother. I too renounced any and all heresies at my baptism. So that's why I take issue with those who are attempting to accuse me of heresy and idolatry based upon their misunderstanding of Rastafari.

As I stated in my hopefully clarified post, the distinction to be made is not in what you personally see Rastafari as standing for (as it is not right that any of us should make up our own Orthodoxy), but whether or not Rastafarianism is compatible with Orthodoxy. It is easy to try to make whatever we want to believe fit in with the Apostolic faith. Speaking of Rome...I have been through more than enough time in a church that does this. "Oh, look! St. Irenaeus said this in the second century, therefore ROME ROME ROME ROME ROME." Nope. Doesn't fly. The Orthodox faith is what Christ our God taught, and the Apostles taught from Him. It is not that plus whatever we personally feel is compatible with it by a selective and fanciful reading or reduction of the Fathers or any other aspect of the faith. That is a Protestant way of viewing the faith, and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Quote
It would be like me condemning an Arabic speaking Christian for referring to God as "Allah," and accusing him of being a terrorist.

Just like the last time you brought this up, this doesn't make sense. We were using the word "Allah" before Muhammad and his spiritual descendents ever existed. Who was using "Jah Rastafari" or espousing Rastafarianism before Ras Tafari/Haile Selassie existed? Nobody. It dates back to the 1930s, at most. The Orthodox faith, on the other hand, established the universe. Hence the choice seems clear to me, and it does not look good for those who claim to be both Orthodox and Rastafarian.

You claim to be interpreting Rastafarianism in a correct, orthodox fashion, and I don't doubt that (mostly because I don't care about it on its own, only when it is claimed to be compatible with Orthodoxy), but I don't see a lot of care for how Orthodoxy is handled in the process. This is the problem we are having, not that we are not we are somehow misunderstanding Rastafarianism, as though that is the concern here (it isn't). Once again, I think the nature of our disagreement is not being fully appreciated.

What confuses me is why some of you keep preaching to the choir. I think my frequent posts on this forum fully demonstrate my commitment Orthodox truth. To clarify this discussion and keep it from becoming further muddled, let me just ask you and others to point out any heretical ideas that you think I am espousing. Otherwise, why fight against ourselves?

I think the "Allah" comparison is quite accurate for analogy. It is not the word that is heretical, but who one means when they invoke it and how one inteprets the term. Same with "JAH" and "Rastafari."

Anyway, like I said, if you or others think I am advocating heresy, please point out my words which you think are heretical and then we can discuss or clarify it. Fair enouogh?



Selam
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« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2012, 04:26:32 PM »

Again, it is not your individual words (at least not that I can see in this thread). It is this idea that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible that I disagree with. That is wrong as a concept, in and of itself. You could say "but Rastafarianism doesn't mean what you think it means; it means _____ (your own idea of what Rastafarianism is), which is totally Orthodox", and I would say fine, okay, but all that means is that you have found a way to stop the cognitive dissonance of believing in two things that you KNOW are not the same thing. Like I wrote earlier, if Rastafarianism were Orthodox, it would be Orthodoxy. We wouldn't call it Rastafarianism anymore. It wouldn't be its own thing. But it is its own thing, maybe not because of what you personally believe (e.g., how some Rastafarians believe that Haile Selassie is God, but you don't), but because others believe those things. It is, in a way, comparable to the insertion of the filioque clause into the Creed. Having been Roman Catholic for some time, I was used to saying it, and familiar with the arguments that it is Orthodox or could be understood in an Orthodox manner (some of which have been made even by EO, such as Bp. Kallistos Ware). Notwithstanding those points, I would not dare to bring it into the Orthodox faith, just because there is some way in which it can be justified by reference to certain particular understandings of it. Again, unambiguously Orthodox things do not need such special justification, as they do not cause problems. It is only when someone knows that their idea might not be acceptable that they have to say "oh, but I don't believe in X like those people, I believe in Y so it's okay." It's not okay. Our fathers and masters the apostles preached one faith, and one faith only. We adhere to that one faith, without confusion or alteration. If not, in what sense can we call ourselves Orthodox? Sure, we may have been baptized, but there were many who were baptized who later decided to follow something else (Montanism, Origenism, etc.), so what does their baptism say for them? That they once believed. But we don't want to be once believers, right? We believe forever in the faith that was handed down from God Himself, through the apostles and those who they ordained to lead His holy Church down to this very day.

I am discounting your baptism, only saying that it's not some kind of magical shield that will keep you from believing in wrong things. We must work to maintain our Orthodox faith every day. I would not want to have to try to do that with the weight of a belief system that is mired in heresy (even if I were one of the "good" Rastafarians, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) when it is really not necessary. We have Orthodoxy, which is whole and complete already without the attachment of any other thing.

If I recall correctly, Habte recently posted the following amusing picture:



I would say something similar to anyone who claims to be Rastafarian and Orthodox. You are not enhancing Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy cannot be enhanced. There is nothing better out there. It does not need Rastafarianism to be attractive to Jamaicans, though of course many may enter into it through that, and in that I think Rastafarianism can be useful for them just as Roman Catholicism was useful for me. But once you are through that door, it should remain shut forever. To open it again or to keep it open just creates the temptation for people to bring anything through it, thinking that they may keep it and be Orthodox, and even worse a person might waver, going in and out, or stand with one foot in and one foot out, never being completely comfortable in the one faith.

Think about it, Gebre. Think about the many, many hours that we have spent in conversation about this issue. It seems an unnecessary distraction at best, and at worst it is hurting everyone.
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« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2012, 08:12:53 PM »

Again, it is not your individual words (at least not that I can see in this thread). It is this idea that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible that I disagree with. That is wrong as a concept, in and of itself. You could say "but Rastafarianism doesn't mean what you think it means; it means _____ (your own idea of what Rastafarianism is), which is totally Orthodox", and I would say fine, okay, but all that means is that you have found a way to stop the cognitive dissonance of believing in two things that you KNOW are not the same thing. Like I wrote earlier, if Rastafarianism were Orthodox, it would be Orthodoxy. We wouldn't call it Rastafarianism anymore. It wouldn't be its own thing. But it is its own thing, maybe not because of what you personally believe (e.g., how some Rastafarians believe that Haile Selassie is God, but you don't), but because others believe those things. It is, in a way, comparable to the insertion of the filioque clause into the Creed. Having been Roman Catholic for some time, I was used to saying it, and familiar with the arguments that it is Orthodox or could be understood in an Orthodox manner (some of which have been made even by EO, such as Bp. Kallistos Ware). Notwithstanding those points, I would not dare to bring it into the Orthodox faith, just because there is some way in which it can be justified by reference to certain particular understandings of it. Again, unambiguously Orthodox things do not need such special justification, as they do not cause problems. It is only when someone knows that their idea might not be acceptable that they have to say "oh, but I don't believe in X like those people, I believe in Y so it's okay." It's not okay. Our fathers and masters the apostles preached one faith, and one faith only. We adhere to that one faith, without confusion or alteration. If not, in what sense can we call ourselves Orthodox? Sure, we may have been baptized, but there were many who were baptized who later decided to follow something else (Montanism, Origenism, etc.), so what does their baptism say for them? That they once believed. But we don't want to be once believers, right? We believe forever in the faith that was handed down from God Himself, through the apostles and those who they ordained to lead His holy Church down to this very day.

I am discounting your baptism, only saying that it's not some kind of magical shield that will keep you from believing in wrong things. We must work to maintain our Orthodox faith every day. I would not want to have to try to do that with the weight of a belief system that is mired in heresy (even if I were one of the "good" Rastafarians, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) when it is really not necessary. We have Orthodoxy, which is whole and complete already without the attachment of any other thing.

If I recall correctly, Habte recently posted the following amusing picture:



I would say something similar to anyone who claims to be Rastafarian and Orthodox. You are not enhancing Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy cannot be enhanced. There is nothing better out there. It does not need Rastafarianism to be attractive to Jamaicans, though of course many may enter into it through that, and in that I think Rastafarianism can be useful for them just as Roman Catholicism was useful for me. But once you are through that door, it should remain shut forever. To open it again or to keep it open just creates the temptation for people to bring anything through it, thinking that they may keep it and be Orthodox, and even worse a person might waver, going in and out, or stand with one foot in and one foot out, never being completely comfortable in the one faith.

Think about it, Gebre. Think about the many, many hours that we have spent in conversation about this issue. It seems an unnecessary distraction at best, and at worst it is hurting everyone.


His Majesty encouraged us to emphasize all areas of agreement, which is what I shall continue to do. I have a heart to see all my Rasta brethren enter into the Orthodox Tewahedo fold. I doubt that many will be led to the faith by mischaracterizations, uncharitable judgments, and disdain. I have never claimed that Rastafari is Orthodoxy, in spite of how some people wish to skew my views. I trust you mean well, and I can only reiterate that I will defend Orthodox doctrine and truth to my dying breath.

That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers. Somehow such foolishness is not only condoned but advocated by many Orthodox Christians, while proclaiming the divine and bilblical name of "JAH" is condemned as heretical. (And just to clarify, neither Habte nor myself has in any way advocated that elements of Rastafarian music, lingo, or culture should be equated with or incorporated into the Litrugical life of the Church.)

So, I will continue to love my Rasta brethren uncondtionally while gently and boldly proclaiming the Teachings and Traditions of Orthodoxy to them. Others can write them off as hopeless pagans and idolaters, but I will never do such a thing. And if my love and embrace of those aspects of the Rastafarian lifestlye and philosophy which correlate with Orthodox truth is condemned as heretical by uninformed Christians, then so be it. Like I said, it makes me sad, but I trust God with my judgment.

At this point I think we have reached an impasse regarding this issue. I don't wish it to descend into negativity and confusion (any more than it already has.) I have no doubt that everyone who has posted on this thread is committed to Orthodox doctrine and truth. Thus, let us love one another and give each other the benefit of the doubt.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
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« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2012, 08:28:49 PM »

That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

Quote
Somehow such foolishness is not only condoned but advocated by many Orthodox Christians, while proclaiming the divine and bilblical name of "JAH" is condemned as heretical.


Jah is not heretical (though I was under the impression that we are not to pronounce the tetragrammaton, and also for phonological reasons relating to Hebrew, "Jah" would not be a possible pronunciation/abbreviation to begin with). "Jah Rastafari" is.

Quote
(And just to clarify, neither Habte nor myself has in any way advocated that elements of Rastafarian music, lingo, or culture should be equated with or incorporated into the Litrugical life of the Church.)


Fair enough, but by advocating that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible, this is still problematic. Going to back to my filioque example: I would not be able to proclaim the filioque as acceptable and Orthodox, then retreat to the idea that I am not advocating that it be incorporated into the liturgical life of the Church, so it's okay. This is in fact what Rome claims about its Eastern compatriots in the Eastern Catholic Churches. It doesn't hold water there, and that same reasoning certainly doesn't hold water elsewhere. Again, we fight against ideas, not people.

Quote
So, I will continue to love my Rasta brethren uncondtionally while gently and boldly proclaiming the Teachings and Traditions of Orthodoxy to them. Others can write them off as hopeless pagans and idolaters, but I will never do such a thing. And if my love and embrace of those aspects of the Rastafarian lifestlye and philosophy which correlate with Orthodox truth is condemned as heretical by uninformed Christians, then so be it. Like I said, it makes me sad, but I trust God with my judgment.

Nobody is saying don't love Rastafarians, or that ANYONE is a hopeless pagan or idolator. That's just silly. If that's what you got out of a measured attempt to explain the nature of our disagreement (without calling anyone a pagan or hopeless or anything of the sort; read it again), then I don't know what to say.

Quote
At this point I think we have reached an impasse regarding this issue.

I'm afraid you are right, and I probably should not have contributed to this thread, or any threads on this subject. At this point, my stance is well known and apparently further clarification or explanation is taken as condemnation of people, which is certainly not something I want associated with my posting. So I'll be unsubscribing to this thread now. Peace.
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« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2012, 08:31:09 PM »

Oops. Except, that is, to say that I left out a very crucial word in post #75. I meant to say that I am NOT discounting your baptism...I know you probably already understood it that way, since without that word the subsequent clause makes no sense at all, but...dang, that sort of thing still bugs me. My apologies. Embarrassed
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« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2012, 08:46:42 PM »

That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

Again, I have never ever come close to arguing that Rastafari is Orthodoxy. People keep trying to make me say something I have never come close to saying.[/quote]

Quote
Somehow such foolishness is not only condoned but advocated by many Orthodox Christians, while proclaiming the divine and bilblical name of "JAH" is condemned as heretical.
Jah is not heretical (though I was under the impression that we are not to pronounce the tetragrammaton, and also for phonological reasons relating to Hebrew, "Jah" would not be a possible pronunciation/abbreviation to begin with). "Jah Rastafari" is.

That is your opinion, which again is based on certain assumptions of interpretation that are not necessarily applicable across the board. The etymology of this has already been discussed in detail, so I won't delve back into it here. Suffice it to say that not everyone who exlaims "JAH! Rastafari!" is worshipping the Emperor.


Quote
(And just to clarify, neither Habte nor myself has in any way advocated that elements of Rastafarian music, lingo, or culture should be equated with or incorporated into the Litrugical life of the Church.)

Fair enough, but by advocating that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy are compatible, this is still problematic. Going to back to my filioque example: I would not be able to proclaim the filioque as acceptable and Orthodox, then retreat to the idea that I am not advocating that it be incorporated into the liturgical life of the Church, so it's okay. This is in fact what Rome claims about its Eastern compatriots in the Eastern Catholic Churches. It doesn't hold water there, and that same reasoning certainly doesn't hold water elsewhere. Again, we fight against ideas, not people.

The filioque has been clearly condemned by the Church. But as far as I know, being a vegetarian and a pacifist, proclaiming the brotherhood of man, believing in the Holy Bible, and adhering to a pure monotheism are not condemned by the Church.

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So, I will continue to love my Rasta brethren uncondtionally while gently and boldly proclaiming the Teachings and Traditions of Orthodoxy to them. Others can write them off as hopeless pagans and idolaters, but I will never do such a thing. And if my love and embrace of those aspects of the Rastafarian lifestlye and philosophy which correlate with Orthodox truth is condemned as heretical by uninformed Christians, then so be it. Like I said, it makes me sad, but I trust God with my judgment.
Nobody is saying don't love Rastafarians, or that ANYONE is a hopeless pagan or idolator. That's just silly. If that's what you got out of a measured attempt to explain the nature of our disagreement (without calling anyone a pagan or hopeless or anything of the sort; read it again), then I don't know what to say.

I'm glad to hear that. But not everyone feels the same way, unfortunately.

Quote
At this point I think we have reached an impasse regarding this issue.
I'm afraid you are right, and I probably should not have contributed to this thread, or any threads on this subject. At this point, my stance is well known and apparently further clarification or explanation is taken as condemnation of people, which is certainly not something I want associated with my posting. So I'll be unsubscribing to this thread now. Peace.

Peace to you as well my brother.



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« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2012, 09:37:36 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus on Today at 08:12:53 PM
That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

I think the point he indirectly implies is very relevant to this discussion. I'll translate it and elaborate upon it in my own way as I understand it:

Human beings do not exist in the abstract, but inevitably subsist in and through a complex matrix of human cultures. Whether consciously or not, we all assume and express ourselves through various facets of such cultures. The personally customised process of adoption and rejection of those various facets is what ultimately make up each person’s individuality.

To take this point one step further: Orthodox Christians do not exist in the abstract. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I am one who is, a) born to Egyptian parents, b) baptised and raised in the Coptic Church, c) a second generation Australian, d) a practitioner in the field of X, and, e) a member of the sport Y.

Each of these identities relates to a corresponding culture—with some or all of the following elements: rituals, beliefs, general attitudes and dispositions, moral codes of conduct, accepted/encouraged standards of behaviour and speech, etc. Each culture primarily operates in differing contexts, but they all make up who I am depending on how I engage with them. Ultimately, and whether consciously or not, I necessarily engage with them—either positively or negatively. Some facets of these cultures are conducive to my internalisation and expression of Orthodoxy, whilst others are not. Ideally, in engaging with such cultures I would do so in a way that allows me to identify more with those that are most conducive as such, and less with those that are least or simply not conducive as such.

If I were to paraphrase GMK's point in a way that might seem more directly relevant to this discussion (and he can correct me if he thinks I've misrepresented his sentiments), it would be as follows:

"You're all making a big fuss about my claim to being a Rastafarian and an Orthodox Christian because some elements typically associated with Rastafarian culture might be at odds with the Faith. Yet none of you are making any big deal about the idea of being American and Orthodox Christian, even though certain elements typically associated with American culture are at odds with the Faith. And if your response in defence to that is, "well, I am an American, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my American culture which are at odds with my Faith", then why can't I defend my being a Rastafarian by similiarly responding, "well, I am a Rastafarian, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my Rastafarian culture which are at odds with my faith."
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« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2012, 10:02:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus on Today at 08:12:53 PM
That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

I think the point he indirectly implies is very relevant to this discussion. I'll translate it and elaborate upon it in my own way as I understand it:

Human beings do not exist in the abstract, but inevitably subsist in and through a complex matrix of human cultures. Whether consciously or not, we all assume and express ourselves through various facets of such cultures. The personally customised process of adoption and rejection of those various facets is what ultimately make up each person’s individuality.

To take this point one step further: Orthodox Christians do not exist in the abstract. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I am one who is, a) born to Egyptian parents, b) baptised and raised in the Coptic Church, c) a second generation Australian, d) a practitioner in the field of X, and, e) a member of the sport Y.

Each of these identities relates to a corresponding culture—with some or all of the following elements: rituals, beliefs, general attitudes and dispositions, moral codes of conduct, accepted/encouraged standards of behaviour and speech, etc. Each culture primarily operates in differing contexts, but they all make up who I am depending on how I engage with them. Ultimately, and whether consciously or not, I necessarily engage with them—either positively or negatively. Some facets of these cultures are conducive to my internalisation and expression of Orthodoxy, whilst others are not. Ideally, in engaging with such cultures I would do so in a way that allows me to identify more with those that are most conducive as such, and less with those that are least or simply not conducive as such.

If I were to paraphrase GMK's point in a way that might seem more directly relevant to this discussion (and he can correct me if he thinks I've misrepresented his sentiments), it would be as follows:

"You're all making a big fuss about my claim to being a Rastafarian and an Orthodox Christian because some elements typically associated with Rastafarian culture might be at odds with the Faith. Yet none of you are making any big deal about the idea of being American and Orthodox Christian, even though certain elements typically associated with American culture are at odds with the Faith. And if your response in defence to that is, "well, I am an American, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my American culture which are at odds with my Faith", then why can't I defend my being a Rastafarian by similiarly responding, "well, I am a Rastafarian, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my Rastafarian culture which are at odds with my faith."

+1

Bingo.  This is a matter of culture.  Orthodox is a Faith, not necessarily a culture, though to be sure, it has her own cultural elements as well.  Rastafari is not inherently a faith, there is too much plurality and diversity of views in this theological regard, rather, Rastafari is a culture, and when brothers like Gebre Menfes Kidus or myself speak of ourselves and Rastafari, we are, culturally speaking.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2012, 12:22:16 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Quote from: Gebre Menfes Kidus on Today at 08:12:53 PM
That being said, I must honestly express that I find the general lifestyle and philosophy of Rastafari to be much more compatible with Orthodoxy than the idolatry of flag waving American patriots who cast their votes for warmongers and baby killers.

Who is talking about this? I don't think we disagree that war and baby killing is not in keeping with the faith, but that's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether Rastafarianism is Orthodox or not.

I think the point he indirectly implies is very relevant to this discussion. I'll translate it and elaborate upon it in my own way as I understand it:

Human beings do not exist in the abstract, but inevitably subsist in and through a complex matrix of human cultures. Whether consciously or not, we all assume and express ourselves through various facets of such cultures. The personally customised process of adoption and rejection of those various facets is what ultimately make up each person’s individuality.

To take this point one step further: Orthodox Christians do not exist in the abstract. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I am one who is, a) born to Egyptian parents, b) baptised and raised in the Coptic Church, c) a second generation Australian, d) a practitioner in the field of X, and, e) a member of the sport Y.

Each of these identities relates to a corresponding culture—with some or all of the following elements: rituals, beliefs, general attitudes and dispositions, moral codes of conduct, accepted/encouraged standards of behaviour and speech, etc. Each culture primarily operates in differing contexts, but they all make up who I am depending on how I engage with them. Ultimately, and whether consciously or not, I necessarily engage with them—either positively or negatively. Some facets of these cultures are conducive to my internalisation and expression of Orthodoxy, whilst others are not. Ideally, in engaging with such cultures I would do so in a way that allows me to identify more with those that are most conducive as such, and less with those that are least or simply not conducive as such.

If I were to paraphrase GMK's point in a way that might seem more directly relevant to this discussion (and he can correct me if he thinks I've misrepresented his sentiments), it would be as follows:

"You're all making a big fuss about my claim to being a Rastafarian and an Orthodox Christian because some elements typically associated with Rastafarian culture might be at odds with the Faith. Yet none of you are making any big deal about the idea of being American and Orthodox Christian, even though certain elements typically associated with American culture are at odds with the Faith. And if your response in defence to that is, "well, I am an American, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my American culture which are at odds with my Faith", then why can't I defend my being a Rastafarian by similiarly responding, "well, I am a Rastafarian, but I do not support those elements typically associated with my Rastafarian culture which are at odds with my faith."

+1

Bingo.  This is a matter of culture.  Orthodox is a Faith, not necessarily a culture, though to be sure, it has her own cultural elements as well.  Rastafari is not inherently a faith, there is too much plurality and diversity of views in this theological regard, rather, Rastafari is a culture, and when brothers like Gebre Menfes Kidus or myself speak of ourselves and Rastafari, we are, culturally speaking.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


+2

Yes Ekhristos, you summarized my position well.

Amen Habte.



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« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2012, 01:21:35 AM »

Great song by a Rastafarian Ethiopian Christian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM8I7-uA3PY&feature=share



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« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2012, 01:57:40 AM »

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo hermit/ bahitawi never says Jesus is black, never says moses is black, never says King David is black. the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, rejects racial political motivated distortions of the Catholic Faith. the Savior of the World Jesus Christ is born of the Virgin Mary A Hebrew of Hebrews, keeper of the Law and the Prophets, daughter of King David, daughter of the Glorious and Holy Patriarchs Abraham Isaac and Israel. the Bahitawi rejected the world and its monarchies for the kingdom of God only. the Bahitawi servers no monarch or monarchy but only God. Bahitawi opens his mouth to speak the kingdom of God alone not to advocate the kingdom of men.

what others say is their business and upon their heads, I speak because those holy ones who witness the Faith with their life are not here and I the arrogant sinner only have my words to offer in wittiness of their impeccable Orthodox Faith and Life. Lord forgive me I have failed them each time,  Cry may the Paraclete fill what is lacking from my weakness and be their wittiness in the hearts of men He resides in.
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« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2012, 03:56:34 AM »

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo hermit/ bahitawi never says Jesus is black, never says moses is black, never says King David is black. the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, rejects racial political motivated distortions of the Catholic Faith. the Savior of the World Jesus Christ is born of the Virgin Mary A Hebrew of Hebrews, keeper of the Law and the Prophets, daughter of King David, daughter of the Glorious and Holy Patriarchs Abraham Isaac and Israel. the Bahitawi rejected the world and its monarchies for the kingdom of God only. the Bahitawi servers no monarch or monarchy but only God. Bahitawi opens his mouth to speak the kingdom of God alone not to advocate the kingdom of men.

what others say is their business and upon their heads, I speak because those holy ones who witness the Faith with their life are not here and I the arrogant sinner only have my words to offer in wittiness of their impeccable Orthodox Faith and Life. Lord forgive me I have failed them each time,  Cry may the Paraclete fill what is lacking from my weakness and be their wittiness in the hearts of men He resides in.




Selam
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« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2012, 01:54:07 AM »

GMK,

It seems to me that your response is more of a legitimate criticism of Haile Yes-Us, the singer you've introduced into this thread as an example of a Rastafarian Ethiopian Christian, than it is of Hiwot.

If it matters not what colour Jesus was, why does this man feel the need to rejoice in the idea that the Ethiopian Church celebrates a Black Jesus ("The Bahatawee make me happy, when they say Jesus Christ is black...")? I don't think Hiwot is essentially saying anything more than, "sorry, but this is not true; the Ethiopian Church does not teach that Jesus is black, so please do not appeal to the Church as an authority for this false assumption." Surely that is a reasonable response from her?

How is the idea of a black Jesus understood within Rastafarian spirituality? From my brief research it seems that for some prominent Rastafarians (e.g. Sam Brown, Emmanuel Edwards, Mortimer Planno) it is intimately tied with the idea of the 'black race' being divinely ordained to reveal God to man in that they are privy to special insight to the divine which other races do not have, even though other races are welcome to embrace it. Connected to this idea seems to be other more clearly dangerous ideas that Christ was in fact reincarnate as a black man (i.e. Emperor Haile Selassie) and that he will be reincarnate once again as a black African.

Can there possibly be an Orthodox way of understanding Jesus to be black—perhaps some very loose, symbolic sense? If so, how widely is such an interpretation accepted within the Rastafarian community? If the heterodox understanding and implications of holding to the idea of a black Jesus predominate in the Rastafarian community, then I would think that this is one Rastafarian belief that ought to be abandoned upon embracing Orthodoxy for the sake of there being no confusion or ambiguity on the matter.
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« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2012, 02:47:25 AM »

GMK,

It seems to me that your response is more of a legitimate criticism of Haile Yes-Us, the singer you've introduced into this thread as an example of a Rastafarian Ethiopian Christian, than it is of Hiwot.

If it matters not what colour Jesus was, why does this man feel the need to rejoice in the idea that the Ethiopian Church celebrates a Black Jesus ("The Bahatawee make me happy, when they say Jesus Christ is black...")? I don't think Hiwot is essentially saying anything more than, "sorry, but this is not true; the Ethiopian Church does not teach that Jesus is black, so please do not appeal to the Church as an authority for this false assumption." Surely that is a reasonable response from her?

How is the idea of a black Jesus understood within Rastafarian spirituality? From my brief research it seems that for some prominent Rastafarians (e.g. Sam Brown, Emmanuel Edwards, Mortimer Planno) it is intimately tied with the idea of the 'black race' being divinely ordained to reveal God to man in that they are privy to special insight to the divine which other races do not have, even though other races are welcome to embrace it. Connected to this idea seems to be other more clearly dangerous ideas that Christ was in fact reincarnate as a black man (i.e. Emperor Haile Selassie) and that he will be reincarnate once again as a black African.

Can there possibly be an Orthodox way of understanding Jesus to be black—perhaps some very loose, symbolic sense? If so, how widely is such an interpretation accepted within the Rastafarian community? If the heterodox understanding and implications of holding to the idea of a black Jesus predominate in the Rastafarian community, then I would think that this is one Rastafarian belief that ought to be abandoned upon embracing Orthodoxy for the sake of there being no confusion or ambiguity on the matter.


I wasn't trying to refute Hiwot. The quote I posted above with the icons was spoken by an Ethiopian Orthodox Priest. As for the video, I posted it simply to demonstrate the fact that there are Rastafarians who are Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. Maybe Hiwot would not attend Liturgy or worship with a Rastafarian Tewahedo Christian like those faithful, humble Christians in the video are doing. I don't know. As for this reggae artist's proclamation of Jesus being Black, I don't think there is anything heretical or unchristian about people seeing Christ through the lens of their own culture, as long as they do not corrupt sound doctrine. However, I have had many intense debates with some Rastas who say that they will not accept the Orthodox Faith until all "White" icons are removed from the Churches. I have made the same point to them as I have here, that while it is perfectly acceptable and reasonable to view Christ through one's own culture, it is not acceptable to make the color or race of Our Lord a point of prejudicial division. Again, I did not post the video as an endorsement of every aspect of the message, but simply to demonstrate the fact that there are indeed Rastas who are Orthodox Christians. If this brother is misguided about any aspect of Church Teaching, then let us pray for him to be enlightened and educated. I myself still have much to learn about the Faith, and I would be grieved if a brother or sister shunned me simply because I was not as learned as them.


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« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2012, 10:13:47 PM »


the Acclaimed great song!

Was this what the Savior of the World the Word of the Father came to the world for? to make us happy because Jesus Christ Is black and his hair IS nappy!”

Was this the faith that the martyrs gave their life for? that ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!’?

Was this the orthodox Faith the Apostles taught ? that we need to rejoice because ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”? that Mosses Is Black and his hair Is nappy!’. “ David IS black and his hair Is nappy!, ‘Israel is black and their hair is Nappy!”

Was this the Faith that is the Reason of our Hope? That “ Jesus Christ is Black and his hair is nappy!”?

Was this the Faith that is the source of our joy ? that ‘ makes me happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”

Was this the covenant  between God and men that the Patriarchs kept with zeal , that  calls us to be “ happy because  David Is black and his hair is nappy!”

What did Saint Paul mean when he said Romans 9:1-33  “ I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. “ he must have meant , “be happy Israel is black and his hair is Nappy!”

Was this what the Apostle Matthew trying to tell us when he labored to write the genealogy of Our Lord? So that we will be happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy?

Perhaps there was no point in the Patriarchs receiving the covenant that the messiah being born from the line of Isaac.

No This man and those like him who claim to be Orthodox Tewahedo would tell us  this :let us be happy because Jesus Christ is Lord because he is black and his hair is nappy!Let us be happy in worshipping the black and nappy haired African Jesus because then  and Only then, we will be worshipping ourselves as we want to do. Our black skin and our nappy hairs, let us prostrate ourselves to them , let us proclaim him Lord who has the black skin and nappy hair as we do. Yes he is Lord because he is Black and nappy haired, we will not bow to those white skinned humans, the inferno of hell preserved for them like Babylon. While the black Israel stands watching and gloating with  a smile of satisfaction when the white Babylon burns! Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is Nappy! Will be the song of the black Israel in the New Zion.

They will tell us : No no this aint theology, its culture ..  you see, when I say Jesus IS black I am not  lying it’s my culture , When I say Moses is black therefore I am happy with his hair also being nappy, it is my culture. Oh please do not talk about orthodoxy, cant you tell that I am orthodox like you? why are we arguing? I don’t think we are disagreeing anywhere, we agree , we agreeeeeee,I tell you we agree, why are you saying no we do not agree? why are you being so stubborn! I am tewahedo like you, come on  be happy Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! This is tewahedo orthodox, I am tewahedo orthodox, please do not judge, do not say I am not orthodox, what will happen if we meet in heaven, I will be singing and being happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! While you my sister you are going to be punished for pontificating over little matter such as the Orthodox Faith. Why don’t we stop arguing over it and why don’t we all love one another as the black Jesus Christ our Lord has said? Why are you judging me?Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! Happy because Moses is black and his hair is nappy! Israel is black and his hair is nappy!

Some might call him a modern day psalmist even, meaning he is one if you sing  those lyrics along with him with utter devotion and dedication, his song like David’s psalm will lead you to Theosis.

This is clearly this Rastafarian man’s Faith, his Theology, the reason of his Joy, the reason of his Hope, why he wants to die and be buried there while the priests pray for him specifically with the ‘ gi’iz language!’ be it culture or theology for this guy and those like him, NONE of it is Orthodoxy! None of it is the Teaching of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

GMK, you said hiwot will not worship with this man; you are darn right I WILL NOT!!!


Psalm 137:5-6 5 if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
6 Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy.
Psalm 27:4
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 84:10
For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Just because anyone joins the procession does not mean that person is orthodox as evidenced by this video, those young Ethiopians were singing a different hymn than him , because the Holy Spirit is the fount of Wisdom He has allowed the testimony of their faith to be unwittingly recorded by this man:

The first mezmur briefly heard in the beginning of the song was the mezmur, “serawite melaektihu , lemedehane alem yiqewmu,/ Before the Savior of the World stand Hosts of Angeles/  at the end of the song there is another mezmur heard as the entire church sings it ‘ ne amin be Ab, we ne Amin be waled we ne Amin ba Manifes Qidus!’/We believe in the Father, We believe In the Son and We believe in the Holy Spirit!’ then before the prayer of absolution is said by the priest, there is a recitation of  this prayer 12x “ Egzio mehare ne kirstos!/ Christ Our Lord have mercy on us!’’ ‘ be ente egzietene maryam meharene Kristos’/ For the sake of our Lady Mary , Christ have mercy on us!’
Then you hear the absolution of the priest.

This was their worship; this is my worship, the Right Worship! The Orthodox Way!

I tell you if they knew what that man was saying in his language, as he danced over the graves of the Departed Orthodox Faithful,….am I not allowed to grieve over this slander over this lie over this desecration…. Ethiopians are very humble, and hospitable, but they are very fierce in guarding what’s theirs to guard also and I assure you their Orthodox Faith to the Orthodox of Ethiopia It is literally EVERYTHING. They find no joy better than to find more brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Faith, however they do not suffer the false brethren the open enemy is treated with better respect than the false brethren. The false brethren who dare to lie in the name of our most Holy ones! Our Anchorites, our monks and priest, these are our hearts!  Chameleons who are one thing with certain groups and another when they are with another group are to be avoided more than the wild beasts. Be glad those people did not know what he was singing about.. the anathema would have been dramatic to see.


The political offence, I will ignore, for instance, that hand symbol is a joke on him and those who imitate him. But that is more politics and for all practical purposes irrelevant.

As to Icons, when the Church teaches Christ is all and in all, we are not talking about altering historical reality of the Saviors birth, or the relevance of the Old Covenant and the importance of the genealogy of the Messiah, and the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Those who paint Christ as Chinese, and through him the blessed virgin and all others do so to impart a theological truth, they however never declare such lie as to dare say that the Messiah Is Chinese according to his human genealogy. That would be utter lie and we know where lies come from, who their father is, and why he lies.


 Is it true they do not know? what is the bible they have read enough to keep quoting for their purpose? Or is it a matter of distortion of what one knows well enough to distort it convincingly to some.a con artist has to know his art to perform it well does he not?  How many epistles were sent to the people of Corinth? How many epistles do we have now in our possession? Can we say we have not heard ? can we say we did not know? who Jesus Christ  is? If Thessaloniki  abandoned her idols and worshiped Christ, those of us who have so much with us, the words of the Savior Himself, the words of the Apostles, we have Moses and the Prophets, yet we still think we can say, we do not know when it comes to our idolatry that is done in the name of Jesus no less!  All mouth will be silenced on that day, no excuse will save us, like the Friend of God Abraham have said, if we cannot listen to Mosses and the Prophets we cannot listen to the Risen Christ, nor will we listen to anyone who might tell us to abandon our futile ways.
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« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2012, 10:48:05 PM »

Wow. I really wish I hadn't clicked on that video.

At the risk of receiving another dot, if you (the general "you", not anybody posting in this thread) really care about Jesus Christ's skin color, I don't care what church you were baptized into or what you call yourself, you've completely missed the point of His coming, and are a fool. Sadly, I have noticed these kinds of stupid comments on all kinds of Ethiopian Orthodox mezmur videos on YT and elsewhere, where "Africa is suffering because of white Jesus" and all that garbage. I don't know if the people leaving them are Rastafarians or not, but there does seem to be an undercurrent of anti-Christ commentary in certain strains of "black liberation" thought that reacts to "white Jesus" as apparently foisted upon the world (as though the Ethiopians do not have their own depictions of Christ...now who is really devaluing or infantilizing the Africans?!  Roll Eyes), and quite frankly it strikes me as ignorant and stupid. This "rejoice because Israel is black" thing isn't really helping change my belief that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy don't belong within driving distance of one another...I mean, can you imagine if I recorded a mariachi song about how I'm happy because Christ is Mexican? (There are an awful lot of Mexicans named Jesus, after all...) That would be ridiculous. And if I said it was Orthodox, I can't imagine any Orthodox person I know being very happy with my misrepresentation of the Church and its faith, which does not privilege any race over another.
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« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2012, 10:48:44 PM »


the Acclaimed great song!

Was this what the Savior of the World the Word of the Father came to the world for? to make us happy because Jesus Christ Is black and his hair IS nappy!”

Was this the faith that the martyrs gave their life for? that ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!’?

Was this the orthodox Faith the Apostles taught ? that we need to rejoice because ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”? that Mosses Is Black and his hair Is nappy!’. “ David IS black and his hair Is nappy!, ‘Israel is black and their hair is Nappy!”

Was this the Faith that is the Reason of our Hope? That “ Jesus Christ is Black and his hair is nappy!”?

Was this the Faith that is the source of our joy ? that ‘ makes me happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”

Was this the covenant  between God and men that the Patriarchs kept with zeal , that  calls us to be “ happy because  David Is black and his hair is nappy!”

What did Saint Paul mean when he said Romans 9:1-33  “ I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. “ he must have meant , “be happy Israel is black and his hair is Nappy!”

Was this what the Apostle Matthew trying to tell us when he labored to write the genealogy of Our Lord? So that we will be happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy?

Perhaps there was no point in the Patriarchs receiving the covenant that the messiah being born from the line of Isaac.

No This man and those like him who claim to be Orthodox Tewahedo would tell us  this :let us be happy because Jesus Christ is Lord because he is black and his hair is nappy!Let us be happy in worshipping the black and nappy haired African Jesus because then  and Only then, we will be worshipping ourselves as we want to do. Our black skin and our nappy hairs, let us prostrate ourselves to them , let us proclaim him Lord who has the black skin and nappy hair as we do. Yes he is Lord because he is Black and nappy haired, we will not bow to those white skinned humans, the inferno of hell preserved for them like Babylon. While the black Israel stands watching and gloating with  a smile of satisfaction when the white Babylon burns! Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is Nappy! Will be the song of the black Israel in the New Zion.

They will tell us : No no this aint theology, its culture ..  you see, when I say Jesus IS black I am not  lying it’s my culture , When I say Moses is black therefore I am happy with his hair also being nappy, it is my culture. Oh please do not talk about orthodoxy, cant you tell that I am orthodox like you? why are we arguing? I don’t think we are disagreeing anywhere, we agree , we agreeeeeee,I tell you we agree, why are you saying no we do not agree? why are you being so stubborn! I am tewahedo like you, come on  be happy Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! This is tewahedo orthodox, I am tewahedo orthodox, please do not judge, do not say I am not orthodox, what will happen if we meet in heaven, I will be singing and being happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! While you my sister you are going to be punished for pontificating over little matter such as the Orthodox Faith. Why don’t we stop arguing over it and why don’t we all love one another as the black Jesus Christ our Lord has said? Why are you judging me?Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! Happy because Moses is black and his hair is nappy! Israel is black and his hair is nappy!

Some might call him a modern day psalmist even, meaning he is one if you sing  those lyrics along with him with utter devotion and dedication, his song like David’s psalm will lead you to Theosis.

This is clearly this Rastafarian man’s Faith, his Theology, the reason of his Joy, the reason of his Hope, why he wants to die and be buried there while the priests pray for him specifically with the ‘ gi’iz language!’ be it culture or theology for this guy and those like him, NONE of it is Orthodoxy! None of it is the Teaching of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

GMK, you said hiwot will not worship with this man; you are darn right I WILL NOT!!!


Psalm 137:5-6 5 if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
6 Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy.
Psalm 27:4
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 84:10
For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Just because anyone joins the procession does not mean that person is orthodox as evidenced by this video, those young Ethiopians were singing a different hymn than him , because the Holy Spirit is the fount of Wisdom He has allowed the testimony of their faith to be unwittingly recorded by this man:

The first mezmur briefly heard in the beginning of the song was the mezmur, “serawite melaektihu , lemedehane alem yiqewmu,/ Before the Savior of the World stand Hosts of Angeles/  at the end of the song there is another mezmur heard as the entire church sings it ‘ ne amin be Ab, we ne Amin be waled we ne Amin ba Manifes Qidus!’/We believe in the Father, We believe In the Son and We believe in the Holy Spirit!’ then before the prayer of absolution is said by the priest, there is a recitation of  this prayer 12x “ Egzio mehare ne kirstos!/ Christ Our Lord have mercy on us!’’ ‘ be ente egzietene maryam meharene Kristos’/ For the sake of our Lady Mary , Christ have mercy on us!’
Then you hear the absolution of the priest.

This was their worship; this is my worship, the Right Worship! The Orthodox Way!

I tell you if they knew what that man was saying in his language, as he danced over the graves of the Departed Orthodox Faithful,….am I not allowed to grieve over this slander over this lie over this desecration…. Ethiopians are very humble, and hospitable, but they are very fierce in guarding what’s theirs to guard also and I assure you their Orthodox Faith to the Orthodox of Ethiopia It is literally EVERYTHING. They find no joy better than to find more brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Faith, however they do not suffer the false brethren the open enemy is treated with better respect than the false brethren. The false brethren who dare to lie in the name of our most Holy ones! Our Anchorites, our monks and priest, these are our hearts!  Chameleons who are one thing with certain groups and another when they are with another group are to be avoided more than the wild beasts. Be glad those people did not know what he was singing about.. the anathema would have been dramatic to see.


The political offence, I will ignore, for instance, that hand symbol is a joke on him and those who imitate him. But that is more politics and for all practical purposes irrelevant.

As to Icons, when the Church teaches Christ is all and in all, we are not talking about altering historical reality of the Saviors birth, or the relevance of the Old Covenant and the importance of the genealogy of the Messiah, and the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Those who paint Christ as Chinese, and through him the blessed virgin and all others do so to impart a theological truth, they however never declare such lie as to dare say that the Messiah Is Chinese according to his human genealogy. That would be utter lie and we know where lies come from, who their father is, and why he lies.


 Is it true they do not know? what is the bible they have read enough to keep quoting for their purpose? Or is it a matter of distortion of what one knows well enough to distort it convincingly to some.a con artist has to know his art to perform it well does he not?  How many epistles were sent to the people of Corinth? How many epistles do we have now in our possession? Can we say we have not heard ? can we say we did not know? who Jesus Christ  is? If Thessaloniki  abandoned her idols and worshiped Christ, those of us who have so much with us, the words of the Savior Himself, the words of the Apostles, we have Moses and the Prophets, yet we still think we can say, we do not know when it comes to our idolatry that is done in the name of Jesus no less!  All mouth will be silenced on that day, no excuse will save us, like the Friend of God Abraham have said, if we cannot listen to Mosses and the Prophets we cannot listen to the Risen Christ, nor will we listen to anyone who might tell us to abandon our futile ways.




A wise man recognizes error but dwells on truth. A wise man recognizes the log in his own eye rather than condemning the speck in his brother's eye. A wise man worships God regardless of who stands beside him. A wise man is patient with the ignorance of others, for he knows that apart from Christ he is the chief of fools. A wise man is quick to find and emphasize areas of agreement rather than magnifying differences and rejoicing in divisions. The wise man is not necessarily one who is theologically or philosophically erudite, but one who is humble, patient, forgiving, and kind. The wise man understands the words of St. Peter: "Love covers a multitude of sins. [I Peter 4:8]

You say that you will not worship beside Rastafarians. That is your choice. But when the Holy Qurbana is offered to me (an unworthy sinner) then I will open my mouth to receive it, regardless of who stands in front of me or who stands beside me. And when our Priests carry the Holy Tabots among the people, I will bow down in gratitude and reverence regardless of who bows down beside me. The glories and Mysteries of God are too wonderful for me to be distracted by judgments about my brother. But that is me, and you are certainly free to reject the Body and Blood of Christ if you feel you are in the presence of unworthy people. That is the beauty of our Faith: God will not force you to worship or receive Him.


"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."  [I Corinthians 13:4-8]


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." [Galatians 5:22-23]




Selam
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« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2012, 10:51:03 PM »

Wow. I really wish I hadn't clicked on that video.

At the risk of receiving another dot, if you (the general "you", not anybody posting in this thread) really care about Jesus Christ's skin color, I don't care what church you were baptized into or what you call yourself, you've completely missed the point of His coming, and are a fool. Sadly, I have noticed these kinds of stupid comments on all kinds of Ethiopian Orthodox mezmur videos on YT and elsewhere, where "Africa is suffering because of white Jesus" and all that garbage. I don't know if the people leaving them are Rastafarians or not, but there does seem to be an undercurrent of anti-Christ commentary in certain strains of "black liberation" thought that reacts to "white Jesus" as apparently foisted upon the world (as though the Ethiopians do not have their own depictions of Christ...now who is really devaluing or infantilizing the Africans?!  Roll Eyes), and quite frankly it strikes me as ignorant and stupid. This "rejoice because Israel is black" thing isn't really helping change my belief that Rastafarianism and Orthodoxy don't belong within driving distance of one another...I mean, can you imagine if I recorded a mariachi song about how I'm happy because Christ is Mexican? (There are an awful lot of Mexicans named Jesus, after all...) That would be ridiculous. And if I said it was Orthodox, I can't imagine any Orthodox person I know being very happy with my misrepresentation of the Church and its faith, which does not privilege any race over another.


Read up on the Virgen of Guadalupe sometime.


Too many people here are confusing love of one's racial identity with racial superiority. There is nothing wrong with the former, only the latter. Some would like to ignore that Scripture describes Our Lord as having hair like wool and feet like bronze. If Rastas embrace such descriptions, who is anyone else to condemn them for it?



Selam
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 10:56:54 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2012, 10:55:07 PM »

Don't really need to. She's kind of a big deal where I grew up. The church in the next town over from my hometown is named after her (my hometown's RC church is named after St. John the Baptist; not bad), and you find her in statue, car decal, and every other form you can think of around those parts. What does she have to do with not rejoicing because of Jesus' race? (Or, rather, some people's preoccupation with what they think Jesus looked like.)
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« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2012, 11:00:36 PM »

Don't really need to. She's kind of a big deal where I grew up. The church in the next town over from my hometown is named after her (my hometown's RC church is named after St. John the Baptist; not bad), and you find her in statue, car decal, and every other form you can think of around those parts. What does she have to do with not rejoicing because of Jesus' race? (Or, rather, some people's preoccupation with what they think Jesus looked like.)


Because Our Lady appeared to the Mexican people looking "morena," i.e. brown skinned. That doesn't mean that Mestizos are a superior race. But the Mexican people take great comfort and joy in the fact that Our Lady's appearance validated them as a people and as a race.


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« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2012, 11:22:07 PM »


the Acclaimed great song!

Was this what the Savior of the World the Word of the Father came to the world for? to make us happy because Jesus Christ Is black and his hair IS nappy!”

Was this the faith that the martyrs gave their life for? that ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!’?

Was this the orthodox Faith the Apostles taught ? that we need to rejoice because ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”? that Mosses Is Black and his hair Is nappy!’. “ David IS black and his hair Is nappy!, ‘Israel is black and their hair is Nappy!”

Was this the Faith that is the Reason of our Hope? That “ Jesus Christ is Black and his hair is nappy!”?

Was this the Faith that is the source of our joy ? that ‘ makes me happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”

Was this the covenant  between God and men that the Patriarchs kept with zeal , that  calls us to be “ happy because  David Is black and his hair is nappy!”

What did Saint Paul mean when he said Romans 9:1-33  “ I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. “ he must have meant , “be happy Israel is black and his hair is Nappy!”

Was this what the Apostle Matthew trying to tell us when he labored to write the genealogy of Our Lord? So that we will be happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy?

Perhaps there was no point in the Patriarchs receiving the covenant that the messiah being born from the line of Isaac.

No This man and those like him who claim to be Orthodox Tewahedo would tell us  this :let us be happy because Jesus Christ is Lord because he is black and his hair is nappy!Let us be happy in worshipping the black and nappy haired African Jesus because then  and Only then, we will be worshipping ourselves as we want to do. Our black skin and our nappy hairs, let us prostrate ourselves to them , let us proclaim him Lord who has the black skin and nappy hair as we do. Yes he is Lord because he is Black and nappy haired, we will not bow to those white skinned humans, the inferno of hell preserved for them like Babylon. While the black Israel stands watching and gloating with  a smile of satisfaction when the white Babylon burns! Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is Nappy! Will be the song of the black Israel in the New Zion.

They will tell us : No no this aint theology, its culture ..  you see, when I say Jesus IS black I am not  lying it’s my culture , When I say Moses is black therefore I am happy with his hair also being nappy, it is my culture. Oh please do not talk about orthodoxy, cant you tell that I am orthodox like you? why are we arguing? I don’t think we are disagreeing anywhere, we agree , we agreeeeeee,I tell you we agree, why are you saying no we do not agree? why are you being so stubborn! I am tewahedo like you, come on  be happy Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! This is tewahedo orthodox, I am tewahedo orthodox, please do not judge, do not say I am not orthodox, what will happen if we meet in heaven, I will be singing and being happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! While you my sister you are going to be punished for pontificating over little matter such as the Orthodox Faith. Why don’t we stop arguing over it and why don’t we all love one another as the black Jesus Christ our Lord has said? Why are you judging me?Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! Happy because Moses is black and his hair is nappy! Israel is black and his hair is nappy!

Some might call him a modern day psalmist even, meaning he is one if you sing  those lyrics along with him with utter devotion and dedication, his song like David’s psalm will lead you to Theosis.

This is clearly this Rastafarian man’s Faith, his Theology, the reason of his Joy, the reason of his Hope, why he wants to die and be buried there while the priests pray for him specifically with the ‘ gi’iz language!’ be it culture or theology for this guy and those like him, NONE of it is Orthodoxy! None of it is the Teaching of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

GMK, you said hiwot will not worship with this man; you are darn right I WILL NOT!!!


Psalm 137:5-6 5 if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
6 Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy.
Psalm 27:4
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 84:10
For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Just because anyone joins the procession does not mean that person is orthodox as evidenced by this video, those young Ethiopians were singing a different hymn than him , because the Holy Spirit is the fount of Wisdom He has allowed the testimony of their faith to be unwittingly recorded by this man:

The first mezmur briefly heard in the beginning of the song was the mezmur, “serawite melaektihu , lemedehane alem yiqewmu,/ Before the Savior of the World stand Hosts of Angeles/  at the end of the song there is another mezmur heard as the entire church sings it ‘ ne amin be Ab, we ne Amin be waled we ne Amin ba Manifes Qidus!’/We believe in the Father, We believe In the Son and We believe in the Holy Spirit!’ then before the prayer of absolution is said by the priest, there is a recitation of  this prayer 12x “ Egzio mehare ne kirstos!/ Christ Our Lord have mercy on us!’’ ‘ be ente egzietene maryam meharene Kristos’/ For the sake of our Lady Mary , Christ have mercy on us!’
Then you hear the absolution of the priest.

This was their worship; this is my worship, the Right Worship! The Orthodox Way!

I tell you if they knew what that man was saying in his language, as he danced over the graves of the Departed Orthodox Faithful,….am I not allowed to grieve over this slander over this lie over this desecration…. Ethiopians are very humble, and hospitable, but they are very fierce in guarding what’s theirs to guard also and I assure you their Orthodox Faith to the Orthodox of Ethiopia It is literally EVERYTHING. They find no joy better than to find more brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Faith, however they do not suffer the false brethren the open enemy is treated with better respect than the false brethren. The false brethren who dare to lie in the name of our most Holy ones! Our Anchorites, our monks and priest, these are our hearts!  Chameleons who are one thing with certain groups and another when they are with another group are to be avoided more than the wild beasts. Be glad those people did not know what he was singing about.. the anathema would have been dramatic to see.


The political offence, I will ignore, for instance, that hand symbol is a joke on him and those who imitate him. But that is more politics and for all practical purposes irrelevant.

As to Icons, when the Church teaches Christ is all and in all, we are not talking about altering historical reality of the Saviors birth, or the relevance of the Old Covenant and the importance of the genealogy of the Messiah, and the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Those who paint Christ as Chinese, and through him the blessed virgin and all others do so to impart a theological truth, they however never declare such lie as to dare say that the Messiah Is Chinese according to his human genealogy. That would be utter lie and we know where lies come from, who their father is, and why he lies.


 Is it true they do not know? what is the bible they have read enough to keep quoting for their purpose? Or is it a matter of distortion of what one knows well enough to distort it convincingly to some.a con artist has to know his art to perform it well does he not?  How many epistles were sent to the people of Corinth? How many epistles do we have now in our possession? Can we say we have not heard ? can we say we did not know? who Jesus Christ  is? If Thessaloniki  abandoned her idols and worshiped Christ, those of us who have so much with us, the words of the Savior Himself, the words of the Apostles, we have Moses and the Prophets, yet we still think we can say, we do not know when it comes to our idolatry that is done in the name of Jesus no less!  All mouth will be silenced on that day, no excuse will save us, like the Friend of God Abraham have said, if we cannot listen to Mosses and the Prophets we cannot listen to the Risen Christ, nor will we listen to anyone who might tell us to abandon our futile ways.




A wise man recognizes error but dwells on truth. A wise man recognizes the log in his own eye rather than condemning the speck in his brother's eye. A wise man worships God regardless of who stands beside him. A wise man is patient with the ignorance of others, for he knows that apart from Christ he is the chief of fools. A wise man is quick to find and emphasize areas of agreement rather than magnifying differences and rejoicing in divisions. The wise man is not necessarily one who is theologically or philosophically erudite, but one who is humble, patient, forgiving, and kind. The wise man understands the words of St. Peter: "Love covers a multitude of sins. [I Peter 4:8]

You say that you will not worship beside Rastafarians. That is your choice. But when the Holy Qurbana is offered to me (an unworthy sinner) then I will open my mouth to receive it, regardless of who stands in front of me or who stands beside me. And when our Priests carry the Holy Tabots among the people, I will bow down in gratitude and reverence regardless of who bows down beside me. The glories and Mysteries of God are too wonderful for me to be distracted by judgments about my brother. But that is me, and you are certainly free to reject the Body and Blood of Christ if you feel you are in the presence of unworthy people. That is the beauty of our Faith: God will not force you to worship or receive Him.


"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."  [I Corinthians 13:4-8]


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." [Galatians 5:22-23]




Selam

gebre, I respect your right to worship as this man does, now you can not invite me to join you guys , I must respectfully vehemently decline. I worship as the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does, I  neither need  nor see any reason to exchange my pearl for the rastafarian ash. so Thank you but No thank you.
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« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2012, 11:33:08 PM »

Re: Post #93

Eh, if that's what you think it means, I'm not going to argue with you. I mean, I don't really see it that way, but alright. I'm not from Mexico anyway, so who cares. For every Mexican or Mexican-descended person that I know, she's a symbol of the nation, and of the nativization of Christianity for the otherwise racially, culturally, and linguistically disparate Mexican people. That is kind of different than "we are happy because Jesus is black". To say that la Virgen is for all the people equally (thereby mestiza chilangas like my grandmother can identify with her as much as purely Spanish Mexicans, or indigenous Mexicans, or Afro-Mexicans, etc.) is pretty different than saying "the Virgin is a specific color, so we love her". All cultures nativize their religions, if the religions are brought from elsewhere. That's not the problem. The problem is that some might say that they love Christ or the Virgin because they have a certain look to them, which is wrong. I don't doubt that there may be many Mexicans who might say something similar, but not if they think about it for a few minutes before doing so. Or at least I never heard my grandmother say something like that, and she was as old school racist as they come...

Praising a saint (or Christ, of course) as a unifying factor or symbol of a multicultural nation is not the same as doing the same because the saint (or Christ) is the same skin color as you.
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« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2012, 12:36:02 AM »


the Acclaimed great song!

Was this what the Savior of the World the Word of the Father came to the world for? to make us happy because Jesus Christ Is black and his hair IS nappy!”

Was this the faith that the martyrs gave their life for? that ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!’?

Was this the orthodox Faith the Apostles taught ? that we need to rejoice because ‘ Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”? that Mosses Is Black and his hair Is nappy!’. “ David IS black and his hair Is nappy!, ‘Israel is black and their hair is Nappy!”

Was this the Faith that is the Reason of our Hope? That “ Jesus Christ is Black and his hair is nappy!”?

Was this the Faith that is the source of our joy ? that ‘ makes me happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy!”

Was this the covenant  between God and men that the Patriarchs kept with zeal , that  calls us to be “ happy because  David Is black and his hair is nappy!”

What did Saint Paul mean when he said Romans 9:1-33  “ I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. “ he must have meant , “be happy Israel is black and his hair is Nappy!”

Was this what the Apostle Matthew trying to tell us when he labored to write the genealogy of Our Lord? So that we will be happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy?

Perhaps there was no point in the Patriarchs receiving the covenant that the messiah being born from the line of Isaac.

No This man and those like him who claim to be Orthodox Tewahedo would tell us  this :let us be happy because Jesus Christ is Lord because he is black and his hair is nappy!Let us be happy in worshipping the black and nappy haired African Jesus because then  and Only then, we will be worshipping ourselves as we want to do. Our black skin and our nappy hairs, let us prostrate ourselves to them , let us proclaim him Lord who has the black skin and nappy hair as we do. Yes he is Lord because he is Black and nappy haired, we will not bow to those white skinned humans, the inferno of hell preserved for them like Babylon. While the black Israel stands watching and gloating with  a smile of satisfaction when the white Babylon burns! Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is Nappy! Will be the song of the black Israel in the New Zion.

They will tell us : No no this aint theology, its culture ..  you see, when I say Jesus IS black I am not  lying it’s my culture , When I say Moses is black therefore I am happy with his hair also being nappy, it is my culture. Oh please do not talk about orthodoxy, cant you tell that I am orthodox like you? why are we arguing? I don’t think we are disagreeing anywhere, we agree , we agreeeeeee,I tell you we agree, why are you saying no we do not agree? why are you being so stubborn! I am tewahedo like you, come on  be happy Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! This is tewahedo orthodox, I am tewahedo orthodox, please do not judge, do not say I am not orthodox, what will happen if we meet in heaven, I will be singing and being happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! While you my sister you are going to be punished for pontificating over little matter such as the Orthodox Faith. Why don’t we stop arguing over it and why don’t we all love one another as the black Jesus Christ our Lord has said? Why are you judging me?Aye! Happy because Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy! Happy because Moses is black and his hair is nappy! Israel is black and his hair is nappy!

Some might call him a modern day psalmist even, meaning he is one if you sing  those lyrics along with him with utter devotion and dedication, his song like David’s psalm will lead you to Theosis.

This is clearly this Rastafarian man’s Faith, his Theology, the reason of his Joy, the reason of his Hope, why he wants to die and be buried there while the priests pray for him specifically with the ‘ gi’iz language!’ be it culture or theology for this guy and those like him, NONE of it is Orthodoxy! None of it is the Teaching of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

GMK, you said hiwot will not worship with this man; you are darn right I WILL NOT!!!


Psalm 137:5-6 5 if I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
6 Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy.
Psalm 27:4
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 84:10
For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Just because anyone joins the procession does not mean that person is orthodox as evidenced by this video, those young Ethiopians were singing a different hymn than him , because the Holy Spirit is the fount of Wisdom He has allowed the testimony of their faith to be unwittingly recorded by this man:

The first mezmur briefly heard in the beginning of the song was the mezmur, “serawite melaektihu , lemedehane alem yiqewmu,/ Before the Savior of the World stand Hosts of Angeles/  at the end of the song there is another mezmur heard as the entire church sings it ‘ ne amin be Ab, we ne Amin be waled we ne Amin ba Manifes Qidus!’/We believe in the Father, We believe In the Son and We believe in the Holy Spirit!’ then before the prayer of absolution is said by the priest, there is a recitation of  this prayer 12x “ Egzio mehare ne kirstos!/ Christ Our Lord have mercy on us!’’ ‘ be ente egzietene maryam meharene Kristos’/ For the sake of our Lady Mary , Christ have mercy on us!’
Then you hear the absolution of the priest.

This was their worship; this is my worship, the Right Worship! The Orthodox Way!

I tell you if they knew what that man was saying in his language, as he danced over the graves of the Departed Orthodox Faithful,….am I not allowed to grieve over this slander over this lie over this desecration…. Ethiopians are very humble, and hospitable, but they are very fierce in guarding what’s theirs to guard also and I assure you their Orthodox Faith to the Orthodox of Ethiopia It is literally EVERYTHING. They find no joy better than to find more brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Faith, however they do not suffer the false brethren the open enemy is treated with better respect than the false brethren. The false brethren who dare to lie in the name of our most Holy ones! Our Anchorites, our monks and priest, these are our hearts!  Chameleons who are one thing with certain groups and another when they are with another group are to be avoided more than the wild beasts. Be glad those people did not know what he was singing about.. the anathema would have been dramatic to see.


The political offence, I will ignore, for instance, that hand symbol is a joke on him and those who imitate him. But that is more politics and for all practical purposes irrelevant.

As to Icons, when the Church teaches Christ is all and in all, we are not talking about altering historical reality of the Saviors birth, or the relevance of the Old Covenant and the importance of the genealogy of the Messiah, and the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Those who paint Christ as Chinese, and through him the blessed virgin and all others do so to impart a theological truth, they however never declare such lie as to dare say that the Messiah Is Chinese according to his human genealogy. That would be utter lie and we know where lies come from, who their father is, and why he lies.


 Is it true they do not know? what is the bible they have read enough to keep quoting for their purpose? Or is it a matter of distortion of what one knows well enough to distort it convincingly to some.a con artist has to know his art to perform it well does he not?  How many epistles were sent to the people of Corinth? How many epistles do we have now in our possession? Can we say we have not heard ? can we say we did not know? who Jesus Christ  is? If Thessaloniki  abandoned her idols and worshiped Christ, those of us who have so much with us, the words of the Savior Himself, the words of the Apostles, we have Moses and the Prophets, yet we still think we can say, we do not know when it comes to our idolatry that is done in the name of Jesus no less!  All mouth will be silenced on that day, no excuse will save us, like the Friend of God Abraham have said, if we cannot listen to Mosses and the Prophets we cannot listen to the Risen Christ, nor will we listen to anyone who might tell us to abandon our futile ways.




A wise man recognizes error but dwells on truth. A wise man recognizes the log in his own eye rather than condemning the speck in his brother's eye. A wise man worships God regardless of who stands beside him. A wise man is patient with the ignorance of others, for he knows that apart from Christ he is the chief of fools. A wise man is quick to find and emphasize areas of agreement rather than magnifying differences and rejoicing in divisions. The wise man is not necessarily one who is theologically or philosophically erudite, but one who is humble, patient, forgiving, and kind. The wise man understands the words of St. Peter: "Love covers a multitude of sins. [I Peter 4:8]

You say that you will not worship beside Rastafarians. That is your choice. But when the Holy Qurbana is offered to me (an unworthy sinner) then I will open my mouth to receive it, regardless of who stands in front of me or who stands beside me. And when our Priests carry the Holy Tabots among the people, I will bow down in gratitude and reverence regardless of who bows down beside me. The glories and Mysteries of God are too wonderful for me to be distracted by judgments about my brother. But that is me, and you are certainly free to reject the Body and Blood of Christ if you feel you are in the presence of unworthy people. That is the beauty of our Faith: God will not force you to worship or receive Him.


"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."  [I Corinthians 13:4-8]


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." [Galatians 5:22-23]




Selam

gebre, I respect your right to worship as this man does, now you can not invite me to join you guys , I must respectfully vehemently decline. I worship as the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church does, I  neither need  nor see any reason to exchange my pearl for the rastafarian ash. so Thank you but No thank you.

Again, dear sister, you are fighting demons of your own imagination. I too worship according to the Teachings and Traditions of the Tewahedo Faith, so there is no need for any division here.


Selam
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« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2012, 12:39:10 AM »

Re: Post #93

Eh, if that's what you think it means, I'm not going to argue with you. I mean, I don't really see it that way, but alright. I'm not from Mexico anyway, so who cares. For every Mexican or Mexican-descended person that I know, she's a symbol of the nation, and of the nativization of Christianity for the otherwise racially, culturally, and linguistically disparate Mexican people. That is kind of different than "we are happy because Jesus is black". To say that la Virgen is for all the people equally (thereby mestiza chilangas like my grandmother can identify with her as much as purely Spanish Mexicans, or indigenous Mexicans, or Afro-Mexicans, etc.) is pretty different than saying "the Virgin is a specific color, so we love her". All cultures nativize their religions, if the religions are brought from elsewhere. That's not the problem. The problem is that some might say that they love Christ or the Virgin because they have a certain look to them, which is wrong. I don't doubt that there may be many Mexicans who might say something similar, but not if they think about it for a few minutes before doing so. Or at least I never heard my grandmother say something like that, and she was as old school racist as they come...

Praising a saint (or Christ, of course) as a unifying factor or symbol of a multicultural nation is not the same as doing the same because the saint (or Christ) is the same skin color as you.


Again, your arguments are against something that I have not said or argued for. That seems to be the consistent point of confusion on this thread. Too many people are applying viewpoints and reasonings to me that I have not held or advocated.


Selam
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« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2012, 01:25:49 AM »

Forgive me, Gebre. You posted that "the Mexican people take great comfort and joy in the fact that Our Lady's appearance validated them as a people and as a race", to which I posted that it isn't so much a matter of appearing in a particular skin color (though that did help the native population relate to her), but that people of ALL skin colors and backgrounds came to identify with her as a symbol of the nation, not some supposed ethnic group called "Mexican" (there are Mexicans of all ethnicities). Related to that comment, but unrelated to anything that you specifically wrote (BUT related to the song you posted, and to the general topic of religion and race that subsequently came up as a result), is the criticism that relating la Virgen to the disputed "I'm happy because Jesus is black" idea from the Rastafarian song is not very sound.

So yes, it is related to your posting, as you posted the song that caused the thread to go in this direction in the first place, and then tried to tell me that this discussion relates to la Virgen de Guadalupe. Again, I don't really see it that way.
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« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2012, 03:00:45 AM »

Forgive me, Gebre. You posted that "the Mexican people take great comfort and joy in the fact that Our Lady's appearance validated them as a people and as a race", to which I posted that it isn't so much a matter of appearing in a particular skin color (though that did help the native population relate to her), but that people of ALL skin colors and backgrounds came to identify with her as a symbol of the nation, not some supposed ethnic group called "Mexican" (there are Mexicans of all ethnicities). Related to that comment, but unrelated to anything that you specifically wrote (BUT related to the song you posted, and to the general topic of religion and race that subsequently came up as a result), is the criticism that relating la Virgen to the disputed "I'm happy because Jesus is black" idea from the Rastafarian song is not very sound.

So yes, it is related to your posting, as you posted the song that caused the thread to go in this direction in the first place, and then tried to tell me that this discussion relates to la Virgen de Guadalupe. Again, I don't really see it that way.


I reiterate that I posted the video simply to demonstrate that there in fact are Rastafarians who are Orthodox Christians. Hiwot chose to focus on a single aspect of the song which she misinterpreted as some sort of racist statement which it was not. The brother is singing praises to Our Lord while extolling the beauty of Ethiopia and the glories of the Tewahedo Faith. It would be good if his Christian brethren could sight the virtue in his message rather than focusing on a singular point which is then made into an issue of conflict and division.

Again, no one can point to anything I have said anywhere on this entire forum where I have advocated the superiority of one race over another, or where I have implied that the Ethiopian Orthodox Faith is exclusive to nationality or ethnicity.


Selam
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« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2012, 08:08:23 PM »

Quote
I reiterate that I posted the video simply to demonstrate that there in fact are Rastafarians who are Orthodox Christians.

I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that there are those who identify with Rastafarian culture who have been baptised into the Church and who thereby associate with Orthodox faithful communities.

Baptism and association mean very little, however, if one does not fully embrace the Faith; and the question all along has been whether or not one is capable of authentically embracing the fullness of the Faith whilst maintaining their identity as a Rastafarian. I maintain that in theory it is possible. I must admit, however, that your video presents a questionable example of such in practice.

Racial sentiments are not merely "a single aspect" of the song you posted. They clearly constitute a primary theme of the song; they define the chorus and frequently recur throughout the verses.

Hearing these racial sentiments prompted my first proper research into Rastafarian culture. The problem I soon came to discover is that it is a culture that is quite heavily loaded with beliefs and attitudes of a spiritual/religious nature. One such belief and attitude relates to the role and significance of black Africans (which I accounted for in my previous post with reference to respected Rastafarian leaders). I have been unable to find any formal or informal account of this racial belief and attitude that might be considered compatible with an Orthodox worldview. The idea of "viewing Christ through one's cultural lens" is quite vague to me and not one I have ever seen discussed in Orthodox literature. Your own personal inference drawn from some local apparition alleged by a Roman Catholic community is not my idea of a legitimate argument.

I conceded earlier that, generally speaking, we are all inevitably the product of cultures, that the human cultures and subcultures that form and shape our individual identities present us with the tools by which we internalise and express the Faith, and that we have the ability, and in fact the responsibility, to customise our cultural ties and engagements in accordance with the Faith where there is conflict or tension.

Given that a clearly heretical understanding of the idea of Christ being black prevails in the Rastafarian community, I would think that a Rastafarian authentically converting to Orthodoxy would either abandon this particular idea outright, or, if finding some way to individually reinterpret it in a way compatible with Orthodoxy, either a) retain the idea privately and discreetly, understanding that the common interpretation to which it is prone is incompatible with his/her Orthodox beliefs and not wishing either to be misunderstood or to risk promoting/encouraging false ideas, or b) heavily and explicitly qualify any public expression of it in order to avoid any confusion or misunderstanding and consequent risk of encouraging and validating those who hold to heretical conceptions of it.

Perhaps a better example of a Rastafarian Orthodox Christian can be offered by you giving us a personal account of a) what it is about your lifestyle and character that constitute a uniquely Rastafarian identity, b) how it is that these are conducive to and/or compatible with your Orthodox Faith, and, c) what aspects of Rastafarian culture you have felt the need to abandon or have found a way to properly redefine and reinterpret in adapting to the Orthodox Faith. How does that sound?
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« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2012, 08:13:42 PM »

How can you be a Rasta and an Orthodox Christian because Rastas worship Haile Selassie I as God incarnate.
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« Reply #101 on: July 23, 2012, 01:15:30 AM »

Quote
I reiterate that I posted the video simply to demonstrate that there in fact are Rastafarians who are Orthodox Christians.

I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that there are those who identify with Rastafarian culture who have been baptised into the Church and who thereby associate with Orthodox faithful communities.

Baptism and association mean very little, however, if one does not fully embrace the Faith; and the question all along has been whether or not one is capable of authentically embracing the fullness of the Faith whilst maintaining their identity as a Rastafarian. I maintain that in theory it is possible. I must admit, however, that your video presents a questionable example of such in practice.

Racial sentiments are not merely "a single aspect" of the song you posted. They clearly constitute a primary theme of the song; they define the chorus and frequently recur throughout the verses.

Hearing these racial sentiments prompted my first proper research into Rastafarian culture. The problem I soon came to discover is that it is a culture that is quite heavily loaded with beliefs and attitudes of a spiritual/religious nature. One such belief and attitude relates to the role and significance of black Africans (which I accounted for in my previous post with reference to respected Rastafarian leaders). I have been unable to find any formal or informal account of this racial belief and attitude that might be considered compatible with an Orthodox worldview. The idea of "viewing Christ through one's cultural lens" is quite vague to me and not one I have ever seen discussed in Orthodox literature. Your own personal inference drawn from some local apparition alleged by a Roman Catholic community is not my idea of a legitimate argument.

I conceded earlier that, generally speaking, we are all inevitably the product of cultures, that the human cultures and subcultures that form and shape our individual identities present us with the tools by which we internalise and express the Faith, and that we have the ability, and in fact the responsibility, to customise our cultural ties and engagements in accordance with the Faith where there is conflict or tension.

Given that a clearly heretical understanding of the idea of Christ being black prevails in the Rastafarian community, I would think that a Rastafarian authentically converting to Orthodoxy would either abandon this particular idea outright, or, if finding some way to individually reinterpret it in a way compatible with Orthodoxy, either a) retain the idea privately and discreetly, understanding that the common interpretation to which it is prone is incompatible with his/her Orthodox beliefs and not wishing either to be misunderstood or to risk promoting/encouraging false ideas, or b) heavily and explicitly qualify any public expression of it in order to avoid any confusion or misunderstanding and consequent risk of encouraging and validating those who hold to heretical conceptions of it.

Perhaps a better example of a Rastafarian Orthodox Christian can be offered by you giving us a personal account of a) what it is about your lifestyle and character that constitute a uniquely Rastafarian identity, b) how it is that these are conducive to and/or compatible with your Orthodox Faith, and, c) what aspects of Rastafarian culture you have felt the need to abandon or have found a way to properly redefine and reinterpret in adapting to the Orthodox Faith. How does that sound?

First of all dear brother, I know that you are not taking sides but only trying to gain clarification. I appreciate yor legitimate concerns, which I share. 

Again, I reiterate that I have never advocated racial supremacy or claimed that Christ is Black. However, I have seen icons of Our Lord which depict Him as Black and icons that depict Him as White. I venerate all these icons in the same manner.

If people want to understand Rastafari culture and beliefs, it will take a lot of work and experience with actual Rastafarians themselves. Even then, you will still come away with many different interpretations and a variety of beliefs. Some worship the Emperor, some insist that Christ is Black, some are vegetarians, some use Ganja, some are pacifists, some eat meat and drink beer, some are devout Tewahedo Christians. So, to generalize about Rastafari is problematic to begin with.

I can only speak for myself, for my own beliefs, which are abundantly clear from everything I post on this forum as well as what is contained in my humble book about the Orthodox Faith. It should be clear to anyone who has actually read my words that I am an Orthodox Tewahedo Christian first and foremost. My doctrine, my faith, my beliefs, and my opinions are shaped and formed by the Teachings and Traditions of the Church above and before all else.

As for the race thing... I will never defend any form of racial superiority in any form. However, neither will I condemn a persecuted and oppressed people for viewing Christ through the lens of their own race, culture, and struggle. We Orthodox Christians are not Puritans who reject icons. Should we refuse to venerate icons of Our Lord in our Churches because the icons depict Him in a particular color? God forbid! Will Hiwot or others refuse to venerate an icon of Our Lord if the icon depicts Him as Black?

Again, if anyone thinks the video I posted is blasphemous in any way, then fine. I stated clearly that I don't endorse every aspect of the message, but that I posted it simply to show that there are Rastafarians who are also Orthodox Christians. I probably should have been more cautious in dissecting the message, but I was focusing instead on the beautiful Tewahedo Faith and culture that permeated the video. I only wish others could focus on that beauty as well.

I think your last paragraph that I highlighted in bold above is important and demonstrates the true Christian spirit of humility and charity. In that spirit, I will attempt to address your specific questions. But for a more detailed account, people can read my Testimony of Baptism on my blog by clicking on this link: http://mysteryandmeaning.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-spiritual-journey.html

You asked:
a) What it is about your lifestyle and character that constitute a uniquely Rastafarian identity?

I'm not really sure, since my identity is first and foremost Orthodox Christian. But I guess I would have to say that my view of the historical and spiritual significance of Africa and Ethiopia, my commitment to nonviolence, my diet, my identification of evil ideologies and systems with "Babylon," my love for conscious reggae music, and of course my love for and veneration of the Emperor and his Christian teachings are things that I associate with Rasta identity. But then again, I associate these things with my Christian identity as well; and I see no conflict between the two in these regards.

b) How it is that these are conducive to and/or compatible with your Orthodox Faith?

Well, like I said above, I think they are very compatible with my Orthodox Faith. The scriptures led me to embrace many things about Rastafari (to the point where I could in good conscience identify myself as a Rasta, especially after studying the 12 Tribes and realizing that not all Rastas worship the Emperor), and the Rastafari worldview led me to the redeeming waters of Holy Baptism and entrance into the true Orthodox Christian Faith.

c) What aspects of Rastafarian culture have you felt the need to abandon or have found a way to properly redefine and reinterpret in adapting to the Orthodox Faith?

Well, since I never worshipped Haile Selassie, that was something that I didn't need to abandon since it was an idolatry that I never practiced. Personally, I chose to stop smoking Ganja, but that was more so for health and personal reasons than any real spiritual conviction. Although if I thought about smoking again, I would seek the advice of my Priest and follow his counsel. So basically, the heretical ideas that are associated with some forms of Rastafari are ideas that I never embraced to begin with. I cut my locks when I was Baptized in obedience and submission, and I have tried hard to maintain a spirit of obedience and submission to the Teachings and Traditions of the Church ever since. I have never attempted to syncretize heretical Rastafarian ideas such as emperor worship with the Orthodox Faith. I submit wholly and completely to our Church's Teachings.

Ok, I hope that helps brother. It is good to believe the best about one another and give each other the benefit of the doubt. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, some Rastas may have some heretical beliefs, but I am more disturbed by the numerous heresies that are promoted in the very name of Our Lord by those who call themselves Christians. Rastas are not militantly evangelical like so many of our Protestant friends, thus there is no reason for anyone to persecute and malign them out of prejudicial fears. And like I said before, I personally will worship along side anyone who wishes to enter the Church and worship in Orthodox fashion. If Hiwot chooses to abandon worship because a Rasta is worhsipping next to her, that is her choice. The Church will always be there to welcome her back.  Smiley


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« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2012, 02:11:46 AM »

So the song was not racist eh?

It must be the demons of hiwots imagination that told her to be happy that Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy, where else could she have heard it, enough to fabricate such a racial statement as coming from those Rastafarians? Don’t know, does anyone know where in this thread did any Rastafarian endorse such statement as being an example of Orthodoxy? Show me One Rastafarian who would endorse let alone sing such a racial and heretical teaching as the teachings of the Anchorites /Hermits of Orthodox Ethiopia? Does anybody see any Rastafarian ever endorsing such a heretical lie that gives false witness against the Church and her Monastics to be the Example of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church’s Teaching and Tradition as it is embraced by those Rastafarians who are in Orthodox Communion with Her? Hiwot must be a confused fool who gives false witness against her orthodox brethren by listening to the demons of her imagination.

Oh you mean she was talking about that stellar orthodox Rastafarian man who worships as we do? Well he  never uttered a racist statement at all, what he did was sing the praises to Our Lord while extolling the beauty of Ethiopia and the glories of the Tewahedo Faith. Why can you guys not see the virtue in his orthodox message rather than focusing on a singular point, even that which by the way you guys misinterpret and call unorthodox racial statement when it is not.


Alight then, now since  that which we can hear with our own ears is being denied and the back pedaling already started. If you all bear with my foolishness once more, as you have already been doing, Let me once more dwell on that heretical song and the singer as well as those who worship as he does, and endorse such teachings as examples of Orthodoxy, yet all who claim to be loyal adherents to the Orthodox Faith and Tradition of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.


Was it a single slip of a tongue; was it a single point distorted? Was it orthodox message misunderstood as it is alluded? The answer is an obvious no;  as we can see if it was a mistake it was not corrected, rather it was defended, if it was ignorance it was repeated as wisdom by those that endorsed it , so let us look at the plot of the story in the song.

The singer’s strategy is this: we all know the Impeccable Credibility of the holy ascetics, especially the Anchorites in their fidelity to the Orthodox Faith and Tradition. If there are those who do not know about the austerity of such life, here is what they do and he tells in a distorted way certain ascetical practices known to be practiced by the Anchorites in their rejection of the world and its source of pleasures.
Then after he points out the deep love and reverence of the Ethiopian Orthodox have for these Anchorites/Hermits as being the keepers and defenders of the Orthodox Faith against all others.


To add to this credibility , he is seen in the video dressed in what can pass as an Ethiopian clergy, and joining in the procession of the Feast of Theophany, while he claps like the Ethiopian orthodox faithful  are doing while they sing an orthodox hymn for the Glory of God, he on other hand uses their presence to worship in the Orthodox way in that procession as a source of validation of his heretical song they have no clue is being set up and orchestrated by him and those who later would use this video for similar purposes of accreditation of their heretical and blasphemous views as being in accord with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Teachings and Traditions.


Now comes the MAIN POINT of the entire exposition on the credibility of the Bahitawi/ Anchorite. It was to say:

==> It is these bahitawis/ anchorites of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church that told him and taught him that Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy, so that is why he is happy! It’s not just him saying that Jesus Christ/ Moses/ King David/ the entire Israelites/ are black; no he tells us he got this teaching from the Anchorites of Ethiopia themselves!


==> It is the bahitawis of EOTC themselves who taught him this way, if you doubt it he will show you walking around their church, running among the Procession, throw in a few Ethiopic words, here and there, call the name of Christ as Ethiopians do, i.e. Eyesus Christos, all these to show us how Orthodox his views are. How what he is advocating is not his but the Church’s views, the main goal being to be so similar as to be indistinguishable to the untrained eyes of the unsuspecting observer.

after all the goal is not to come out and say we believe this way because we are racially motivated, pseudo spiritualists whose political philosophies we want to pass as orthodox Christian Spirituality, that way one will have the accreditation one needs to propagate one’s view with the stamp of approval one can present each time the orthodoxy of one’s view is questioned.


As we have seen in the song and its endorsers, superficial imitation is very important to them as it is a great tool to further their heretical views with a veneer of Orthodoxy, the higher the authority in orthodoxy they can claim or associate as endorser and advocator of their views the better.

Mark 7:9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!


The King of Babylon was judged ‘ mane , teqel, Phares !’ Daniel 5: 25-28 when he started using the Things of the LORD GOD’s ( the golden and the silver vessels of the house of God) for his own personal pleasure, when he desecrated them and what they stand for, for his own blasphemous use. Those Rastafarian heretics that attempt to use the men and women of Orthodoxy (the Holy Anchorites who have consecrated their very lives to the LORD GOD) and distort the Orthodox Witness of their holy lives, and attempt to use it to serve a heretical philosophy which attempts to pass as the Body of Christ while it is filled and intoxicated with egotistical, idolatrous lusts of Babylon herself will  face her judgment by the Awesome Bridegroom who will defend His Pure Bride.


To those who knowingly would dare to use the reverend names, and the blood and tears of  the Holy ascetics of Orthodoxy  and give witness falsely in invoking the Faith of the ascetics , the Orthodox Tewahedo Church and her Tradition, in order to advance their  burning lust for earthly , narcissistic, egomaniac  and idolatrous  glory, I pray that they wake up and know that they are walking in the path of Jezebel.



As to the Orthodox Anchorites of Ethiopia, never is it heard of one who has forgotten what the taste of  baked food, warm clothing, the security of a roof over their head, one who has forgotten what it means to be satiated and filled with food and water, one who has not looked at a mirror of any form, and forgotten what he or she looks like in the outside, the holy anchorites of Ethiopia who bless the very air of the entire world with the opening of their mouth with their unceasing prayer. Who guard the entire universe with their living prayer, as they burn and shine with the Fire of the Paraclete Never is it heard that those who have forgotten to care for their hair that it will grow unnoticed and tangled and dreaded, that they would have the inclination to preach about the texture of someone else’s hair let alone to give spiritual discourse over the nappiness of the hair of Our Lord, or the Patriarchs of Israel. Not a single one of them dare to speak in false witness as to who  and of what race the Messiah is, The Orthodox Faith they give witness in their lives is the Faith in the Truth, the Way, and the Life. Their zeal for the Truth is so great that they are ones who guard against the heretical teaching of any sort be it from outside or inside, thus they along with St Paul the Apostle in say “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.’’ Galatians 1:8


And with One heart the Church replies with a living prayer:  Amen!
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« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2012, 02:41:52 AM »

So the song was not racist eh?

It must be the demons of hiwots imagination that told her to be happy that Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy, where else could she have heard it, enough to fabricate such a racial statement as coming from those Rastafarians? Don’t know, does anyone know where in this thread did any Rastafarian endorse such statement as being an example of Orthodoxy? Show me One Rastafarian who would endorse let alone sing such a racial and heretical teaching as the teachings of the Anchorites /Hermits of Orthodox Ethiopia? Does anybody see any Rastafarian ever endorsing such a heretical lie that gives false witness against the Church and her Monastics to be the Example of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church’s Teaching and Tradition as it is embraced by those Rastafarians who are in Orthodox Communion with Her? Hiwot must be a confused fool who gives false witness against her orthodox brethren by listening to the demons of her imagination.

Oh you mean she was talking about that stellar orthodox Rastafarian man who worships as we do? Well he  never uttered a racist statement at all, what he did was sing the praises to Our Lord while extolling the beauty of Ethiopia and the glories of the Tewahedo Faith. Why can you guys not see the virtue in his orthodox message rather than focusing on a singular point, even that which by the way you guys misinterpret and call unorthodox racial statement when it is not.


Alight then, now since  that which we can hear with our own ears is being denied and the back pedaling already started. If you all bear with my foolishness once more, as you have already been doing, Let me once more dwell on that heretical song and the singer as well as those who worship as he does, and endorse such teachings as examples of Orthodoxy, yet all who claim to be loyal adherents to the Orthodox Faith and Tradition of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.


Was it a single slip of a tongue; was it a single point distorted? Was it orthodox message misunderstood as it is alluded? The answer is an obvious no;  as we can see if it was a mistake it was not corrected, rather it was defended, if it was ignorance it was repeated as wisdom by those that endorsed it , so let us look at the plot of the story in the song.

The singer’s strategy is this: we all know the Impeccable Credibility of the holy ascetics, especially the Anchorites in their fidelity to the Orthodox Faith and Tradition. If there are those who do not know about the austerity of such life, here is what they do and he tells in a distorted way certain ascetical practices known to be practiced by the Anchorites in their rejection of the world and its source of pleasures.
Then after he points out the deep love and reverence of the Ethiopian Orthodox have for these Anchorites/Hermits as being the keepers and defenders of the Orthodox Faith against all others.


To add to this credibility , he is seen in the video dressed in what can pass as an Ethiopian clergy, and joining in the procession of the Feast of Theophany, while he claps like the Ethiopian orthodox faithful  are doing while they sing an orthodox hymn for the Glory of God, he on other hand uses their presence to worship in the Orthodox way in that procession as a source of validation of his heretical song they have no clue is being set up and orchestrated by him and those who later would use this video for similar purposes of accreditation of their heretical and blasphemous views as being in accord with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Teachings and Traditions.


Now comes the MAIN POINT of the entire exposition on the credibility of the Bahitawi/ Anchorite. It was to say:

==> It is these bahitawis/ anchorites of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church that told him and taught him that Jesus Christ is black and his hair is nappy, so that is why he is happy! It’s not just him saying that Jesus Christ/ Moses/ King David/ the entire Israelites/ are black; no he tells us he got this teaching from the Anchorites of Ethiopia themselves!


==> It is the bahitawis of EOTC themselves who taught him this way, if you doubt it he will show you walking around their church, running among the Procession, throw in a few Ethiopic words, here and there, call the name of Christ as Ethiopians do, i.e. Eyesus Christos, all these to show us how Orthodox his views are. How what he is advocating is not his but the Church’s views, the main goal being to be so similar as to be indistinguishable to the untrained eyes of the unsuspecting observer.

after all the goal is not to come out and say we believe this way because we are racially motivated, pseudo spiritualists whose political philosophies we want to pass as orthodox Christian Spirituality, that way one will have the accreditation one needs to propagate one’s view with the stamp of approval one can present each time the orthodoxy of one’s view is questioned.


As we have seen in the song and its endorsers, superficial imitation is very important to them as it is a great tool to further their heretical views with a veneer of Orthodoxy, the higher the authority in orthodoxy they can claim or associate as endorser and advocator of their views the better.

Mark 7:9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!


The King of Babylon was judged ‘ mane , teqel, Phares !’ Daniel 5: 25-28 when he started using the Things of the LORD GOD’s ( the golden and the silver vessels of the house of God) for his own personal pleasure, when he desecrated them and what they stand for, for his own blasphemous use. Those Rastafarian heretics that attempt to use the men and women of Orthodoxy (the Holy Anchorites who have consecrated their very lives to the LORD GOD) and distort the Orthodox Witness of their holy lives, and attempt to use it to serve a heretical philosophy which attempts to pass as the Body of Christ while it is filled and intoxicated with egotistical, idolatrous lusts of Babylon herself will  face her judgment by the Awesome Bridegroom who will defend His Pure Bride.


To those who knowingly would dare to use the reverend names, and the blood and tears of  the Holy ascetics of Orthodoxy  and give witness falsely in invoking the Faith of the ascetics , the Orthodox Tewahedo Church and her Tradition, in order to advance their  burning lust for earthly , narcissistic, egomaniac  and idolatrous  glory, I pray that they wake up and know that they are walking in the path of Jezebel.



As to the Orthodox Anchorites of Ethiopia, never is it heard of one who has forgotten what the taste of  baked food, warm clothing, the security of a roof over their head, one who has forgotten what it means to be satiated and filled with food and water, one who has not looked at a mirror of any form, and forgotten what he or she looks like in the outside, the holy anchorites of Ethiopia who bless the very air of the entire world with the opening of their mouth with their unceasing prayer. Who guard the entire universe with their living prayer, as they burn and shine with the Fire of the Paraclete Never is it heard that those who have forgotten to care for their hair that it will grow unnoticed and tangled and dreaded, that they would have the inclination to preach about the texture of someone else’s hair let alone to give spiritual discourse over the nappiness of the hair of Our Lord, or the Patriarchs of Israel. Not a single one of them dare to speak in false witness as to who  and of what race the Messiah is, The Orthodox Faith they give witness in their lives is the Faith in the Truth, the Way, and the Life. Their zeal for the Truth is so great that they are ones who guard against the heretical teaching of any sort be it from outside or inside, thus they along with St Paul the Apostle in say “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.’’ Galatians 1:8


And with One heart the Church replies with a living prayer:  Amen!



Dear sister,

It really would help if you read my posts and stopped fighting against arguments that I have never made.

Now, some humble advice from an unworthy sinner (and yes, a "falsely pious" unworthy sinner at that):  

+Worship Eyesus Kristos.

+Worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God, -amen-.

+Worship according the Teachings and Traditions of our beloved Tewahedo Church.

+Prostrate before the Ark of the Covenant, and open your mouth and heart to receive the Holy Qurbana.

+When you worship, do not worry about who is next to you, who is behind you, or who is beside you. Know that Christ is in our midst, He is and always shall be! Truly He is risen! Focus on these glorious truths and you will not be disappointed.

+Do not stand before the altar and beat your breast like the Pharisee, saying "Thank God that I am not like those sinful Rastafarians!" Instead, bow before Christ in humility and plead for His mercy. And when you plead for His mercy, please plead His mercy for me as well.


Peace and Love my sister. Smiley



Selam
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« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2012, 02:43:10 AM »

oh by the way, can somebody explain to me, the difference between not endorsing someone as orthodox yet still saying : here is an  example of a genuine rastafarian orthodox man, whose views are not racist egotistical hateful and hetrodox, but orthodox manifestation of his orthodox faith, come let us worship as he does.

Truth....What is Truth? seems to be the question in here.

amazing!

I know one defintion of Right Worship and that is ORTHODOXY, The RIGHT GLORY, THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE!

ALL others ARE LIES! emanating from the FATHER OF LIES! SATAN himself who likes to masquerade as angel of light.

gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.
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« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2012, 02:57:39 AM »

Gebre: I know I'm several posts behind on this issue, but just so we're clear, I have not accused you here of any kind of racial supremacy. That would be ridiculous. I don't believe you believe in that. Rather, my point was not to say what you believe or don't believe, but rather to say that anyone (of any color/background/politics/etc.) who says, as the singer said, "I am happy because Jesus is a particular color", or (as you claim Mexicans say about the Virgin of Guadalupe) "I love the Theotokos because this vision of her shows her with my features", or anything like that is wrong. Those are just plain wrong reasons for praising Christ, or the Theotokos, or any of the saints. It doesn't really matter the background of the person doing it. The European Renaissance painters who depicted Christ as a white guy were doing essentially the same thing, and even though it is understandable why they would paint Him that way (again, inculturation), if people, seeing those paintings, come away saying "Wow! Jesus is a white guy! That makes me happy!" then that's wrong. This is a pretty big reason why we are supposed to be careful with exactly how we represent Christ or the saints in icons, right? I thought so, anyway, even though I'm no specialist in this area.

So yes, with that specific reasoning in mind, I would refuse to venerate an icon of Christ because it depicts Him as black...but I have the 15th century Ethiopian icon "The One who listens" set as the desktop background on my computer. When I look at it, I don't say "There is an African Christ! Praise God! He's so black! This makes me happy!" I look at it and I see Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, and His mother, who brought forth the True Light, and I praise our God for His great mercy in coming to us, unworthy as we are. The fact that Jesus Christ and St. Mary (and the other figures in the icon) are depicted as black is really not on my mind. It makes sense that they are, and I think the icon is very beautiful, but again, I will not venerate any icon because it depicts Christ or anyone in a particular hue. That's ridiculous. And, indeed, I must say that there are some things that are not appropriate. I would not venerate an icon of St. Moses the Ethiopian that depicts him as a young Chinese woman, you know? That doesn't mean that I have problems with the Chinese or young women or anything like that, but I do think that traditional iconographic principles should trump identity politics and/or race baiting.
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« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2012, 03:31:21 AM »


gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.


May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.


Selam
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« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2012, 03:36:36 AM »

Gebre: I know I'm several posts behind on this issue, but just so we're clear, I have not accused you here of any kind of racial supremacy. That would be ridiculous. I don't believe you believe in that. Rather, my point was not to say what you believe or don't believe, but rather to say that anyone (of any color/background/politics/etc.) who says, as the singer said, "I am happy because Jesus is a particular color", or (as you claim Mexicans say about the Virgin of Guadalupe) "I love the Theotokos because this vision of her shows her with my features", or anything like that is wrong. Those are just plain wrong reasons for praising Christ, or the Theotokos, or any of the saints. It doesn't really matter the background of the person doing it. The European Renaissance painters who depicted Christ as a white guy were doing essentially the same thing, and even though it is understandable why they would paint Him that way (again, inculturation), if people, seeing those paintings, come away saying "Wow! Jesus is a white guy! That makes me happy!" then that's wrong. This is a pretty big reason why we are supposed to be careful with exactly how we represent Christ or the saints in icons, right? I thought so, anyway, even though I'm no specialist in this area.

So yes, with that specific reasoning in mind, I would refuse to venerate an icon of Christ because it depicts Him as black...but I have the 15th century Ethiopian icon "The One who listens" set as the desktop background on my computer. When I look at it, I don't say "There is an African Christ! Praise God! He's so black! This makes me happy!" I look at it and I see Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, and His mother, who brought forth the True Light, and I praise our God for His great mercy in coming to us, unworthy as we are. The fact that Jesus Christ and St. Mary (and the other figures in the icon) are depicted as black is really not on my mind. It makes sense that they are, and I think the icon is very beautiful, but again, I will not venerate any icon because it depicts Christ or anyone in a particular hue. That's ridiculous. And, indeed, I must say that there are some things that are not appropriate. I would not venerate an icon of St. Moses the Ethiopian that depicts him as a young Chinese woman, you know? That doesn't mean that I have problems with the Chinese or young women or anything like that, but I do think that traditional iconographic principles should trump identity politics and/or race baiting.

I think we are on the same page my friend. If someone worships an image of Christ only because of the color depicted, then that is idolatry. But if someone worships Christ because He is Christ, but also rejoices that Christ appears to them in a form of their own cultural or racial ethnicity, then I see nothing wrong with that. That was my point about the Virgen de Guadalupe. She is venerated simply because she is St. Mary, but if the Mexican people also find comfort and joy in her manifestation as a Mestizo, then good for them. So, I think we are in agreement?


Selam
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« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2012, 03:43:39 AM »


gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.


May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.


Selam

The lies and distortions are quite clear gebre, I have as you say been very careful as to filtering the heterodoxy advocated from the Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church Lives. so your caution was duly noted. If your prayer for forgiveness is for real then rejoice because For those who repent of their errors with sincerity God is forgiving and Merciful, May He help you and me bear the fruits of our repentance in the Holy Spirit, Who alone sanctifies and strengthens. amen.
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« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2012, 03:49:33 AM »


gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.


May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.


Selam

The lies and distortions are quite clear gebre, I have as you say been very careful as to filtering the heterodoxy advocated from the Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church Lives. so your caution was duly noted. If your prayer for forgiveness is for real then rejoice because For those who repent of their errors with sincerity God is forgiving and Merciful, May He help you and me bear the fruits of our repentance in the Holy Spirit, Who alone sanctifies and strengthens. amen.


Please list the lies and distortions about our Faith that I have made. Otherwise please do not accuse me falsely.  (BTW, I have PM'd you.)  Peace sister.



Selam
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« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2012, 03:56:02 AM »

Frankly, Gebre, it is hard to tell if we are in agreement in light of your defense of the supposed Orthodoxy of the song you posted earlier. Maybe we mostly are, but I don't want to leave any wrong ideas up here as to what I mean. My point is that it is wrong to rejoice in the Savior's color, as the song seems to do over and over. "I am happy because Israel is black", and so on. That certain depictions of Christ or the saints vary across cultural lines is unavoidable and not wrong in itself (cf. the Ethiopian icon I brought up), but saying "I rejoice because of a Christ of this color!" is wrong in itself. Again, it is not necessarily wrong to depict Christ or a saint in a certain way (though it can be, cf. St. Moses the Ethiopian as an Asian woman), but it is wrong rejoice over such a depiction. Jesus Christ conquered death, so if you focus on his hair...well, that's stupid, isn't it? That has nothing to do with anything. Christ didn't cast out demons by His hair, and we are not saved by having certain (absolutely irrelevant, potentially highly questionable) ideas about His skin color. That doesn't matter. The picture you posted earlier said it all. It doesn't matter what race He was -- what matters is that He is the Savior of the whole world, the Only Begotten Son of God, the True Light, the Alpha and the Omega. As God, He transcends racial and cultural divisions, and as Christians, His followers, we should be striving to do so, too. Saying "I am happy because Christ is a certain color" really doesn't help that at all. It is at best a step backwards in our attempt to follow Him, and at worst it shows that we are not really following Him at all.
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« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2012, 04:32:31 AM »


gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.


May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.


Selam

The lies and distortions are quite clear gebre, I have as you say been very careful as to filtering the heterodoxy advocated from the Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church Lives. so your caution was duly noted. If your prayer for forgiveness is for real then rejoice because For those who repent of their errors with sincerity God is forgiving and Merciful, May He help you and me bear the fruits of our repentance in the Holy Spirit, Who alone sanctifies and strengthens. amen.


Please list the lies and distortions about our Faith that I have made. Otherwise please do not accuse me falsely.  (BTW, I have PM'd you.)  Peace sister.



Selam




Since you asked I will list it then just limiting on this thread.

When bob Marley sung his mockery of the Christian hope of dying and going to heaven in Jesus Name and advised the people to abandon that hope which he mocked and instead counseled them to work towards earthy life alone because life is right here and now , not the hereafter. You called him a modern day psalmist equal in stature with the holy prophet king David, to make your point appear orthodox; you dare to use the Holy Icon of Ethiopian Orthodox Church, combined with your Jah rastafari! Chant, let me ask you this:

If bob Marley is a modern day psalmist will those who sing his songs achieve theosis since singing his heretical and blasphemous song you count as a prayer? That is what the psalms of David are, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and for generations prayed by the Orthodox Faithful and with a unative prayer have been helpful in transforming many in the Spirit. Would listening to your modern day psalmist bob Marley do the same? Will it be possible to pray his song in the church or privately in orthodox spirituality? Would the Orthodox Church pray JAH Rastafari from her pulpit, her Sunday schools from her private devotions?  NEVER! yet you did not hesitate, or pause to consider your reckless actions when you not only indorsed that blasphemous song but the singer as a modern day psalmist , using his baptism which  came way after his heretical song was published with their heretical intentions. You use your jah Rastafari prayer and encourage many to subsist in their heretical attachment and blasphemy, what the church will never use in her private devotion or public service, you advocate with her iconography and worse insistence that it is in accord with her orthodox faith that you do so.


Then came your bringing this Rastafarian man as example of Rastafarian orthodoxy that is in accord with Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church. You not only denied that what he said was unorthodox but you outright defended his racist and hateful heresy as none racist orthodox manifestation of orthodox Faith. Not only that you insinuated that whatever error it might be there it’s because he does not know and you do not agree with it, then you turn around and say oh there is nothing in there that was racist or unorthodox. Which is it?


Then it gets worse, the Rastafarian you chose to bring by being in agreement with slanders the great spiritual teachers of the Orthodox Church, he gives false witness against them and says they teach this hateful heresy as he does. Yet you saw no need to stand against that kind of blasphemy against Christ, or lie against those Orthodox hermits. No you denied what we all can hear with our ears, you continue to insist that you in all this are in the right, and been giving the right witness of the Ethiopian orthodox Tewahedo church and her Tradition.


You not only support how he worships = heterodoxy but invite all to join in such worship. There is only One Right Worship and that is Orthodoxy!
The reason I am repeating all this as If the entire thread has not been about the Faith is because  as you have demonstrated even after you posted this man’s song as an example o orthodox Rastafarian you yourself were the one to deny that you agree with him, and accuse others of misinterpreting you. When that did not fly , you started to defend him as being orthodox and those who refuse to worship as he do are simply being hateful and confused by the demons of their imagination.

I have said all that needs to be said to you, I respect your right to believe any number of things you like. However you or anyone you bring and endorse cannot scandalize, lie about or distort, the Orthodox Church and her Traditions by claiming egomaniac narcissistic racial sophistries and blasphemous heresies such as the above I mentioned are being taught by her or anyone of those lied about Anchorites.

I say enough of this attempt at superficial similarity to conceal the Rastafarian heresy of not only emperor worship but also racial superiority, using scripture to send a distorted message of Salvation of the Black Israel by the African Jesus. If you know what the Orthodox Church teaches, then you still continue to allow those who are continuing in their error without so much as a word of warning instead you imitate them in their errors and sing jah rastafari with them , be happy Jesus  Christ is Black and his hair is nappy then that’s up to you. But neither the Apostles of the Lord nor any of the Orthodox Christian Fathers have given us such Tradition. So Anathema!
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« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2012, 04:41:37 AM »

Frankly, Gebre, it is hard to tell if we are in agreement in light of your defense of the supposed Orthodoxy of the song you posted earlier. Maybe we mostly are, but I don't want to leave any wrong ideas up here as to what I mean. My point is that it is wrong to rejoice in the Savior's color, as the song seems to do over and over. "I am happy because Israel is black", and so on. That certain depictions of Christ or the saints vary across cultural lines is unavoidable and not wrong in itself (cf. the Ethiopian icon I brought up), but saying "I rejoice because of a Christ of this color!" is wrong in itself. Again, it is not necessarily wrong to depict Christ or a saint in a certain way (though it can be, cf. St. Moses the Ethiopian as an Asian woman), but it is wrong rejoice over such a depiction. Jesus Christ conquered death, so if you focus on his hair...well, that's stupid, isn't it? That has nothing to do with anything. Christ didn't cast out demons by His hair, and we are not saved by having certain (absolutely irrelevant, potentially highly questionable) ideas about His skin color. That doesn't matter. The picture you posted earlier said it all. It doesn't matter what race He was -- what matters is that He is the Savior of the whole world, the Only Begotten Son of God, the True Light, the Alpha and the Omega. As God, He transcends racial and cultural divisions, and as Christians, His followers, we should be striving to do so, too. Saying "I am happy because Christ is a certain color" really doesn't help that at all. It is at best a step backwards in our attempt to follow Him, and at worst it shows that we are not really following Him at all.


Dear friend, I have repeatedly stated that I did not post the video as an example of Orthodox doctrine, but simply to demonstrate that some Rastafarians are Orthodox Christians. Who of us is perfect in doctrine or in practice? I know that I am not. Pray for me.

Here is my opinion, and feel free to disagree: It is wrong to worship Christ because of any racial or ethnic depiction, but it is not wrong to rejoice and find comfort in the fact that Our Lord reveals Himself in the ethnicity or race of the person or people to whom He is being revealed.

An example: I worship Christ because He is God and because He is the only hope I have of salvation. However, I do not ignore the fact that He was nonviolent (i.e. He refused to kill), that He preached forgiveness, that He condemned the Pharisees, that He gave hope to sinners, that He performed miracles, that He was a Jew, that He was a man, that He was tempted, that He felt every human emotion known to man, etc. I take great comfort in these things, and if I were talented enough to write songs expressing the joy and happiness that these things give me, then I would surely do so.

Does the fact that Our Lord was a Jew mean that He hated Gentiles? Of course not! Does the fact that He was nonviolent mean that He hated soldiers? Of course not! So if someone who has been oppressed by a false religion that has imposed the image of a "white Jesus" upon them now finds solace and joy in the fact that they have finally seen Our Lord depicted as Black, then why should we be upset by it? We should be more disturbed by the inhumanity, evils, and injustices that were done to Black people (and "brown" and "red" people) by Europeans who oppressed, tortured, and enslaved in the precious name of Our Lord.

Rather than condemning Rastafarians, let us heed the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." [I Corinthians 9:22]




Selam
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« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2012, 04:46:09 AM »

Who is perfect in doctrine? The Orthodox Church is PERFECT in her DOCTRINE!

The ORTHODOX are PERFECT in their DOCTRINE ! not a speck of heresy in the Orthodox Faith!


those who attempt to argue as if the orthodox Faith's validity is dependent upon their personal holiness or lack there of are simply too arrogant to see the Supreme Truth is always true and above who they are or they are not personally. for this reason the Faith of the person has to be orthodox in order to be in communion with the Orthodox Church, however in personal sin the Orthodox Church is open to all Faithful who are sick and suffering and works towards their sacramental healing. her sacraments however are for those who are as Orthodox as Her , flawless in their Faith.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 04:53:42 AM by Hiwot » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2012, 04:52:09 AM »


gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.


May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.


Selam

The lies and distortions are quite clear gebre, I have as you say been very careful as to filtering the heterodoxy advocated from the Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church Lives. so your caution was duly noted. If your prayer for forgiveness is for real then rejoice because For those who repent of their errors with sincerity God is forgiving and Merciful, May He help you and me bear the fruits of our repentance in the Holy Spirit, Who alone sanctifies and strengthens. amen.


Please list the lies and distortions about our Faith that I have made. Otherwise please do not accuse me falsely.  (BTW, I have PM'd you.)  Peace sister.



Selam




Since you asked I will list it then just limiting on this thread.

When bob Marley sung his mockery of the Christian hope of dying and going to heaven in Jesus Name and advised the people to abandon that hope which he mocked and instead counseled them to work towards earthy life alone because life is right here and now , not the hereafter. You called him a modern day psalmist equal in stature with the holy prophet king David, to make your point appear orthodox; you dare to use the Holy Icon of Ethiopian Orthodox Church, combined with your Jah rastafari! Chant, let me ask you this:

If bob Marley is a modern day psalmist will those who sing his songs achieve theosis since singing his heretical and blasphemous song you count as a prayer? That is what the psalms of David are, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and for generations prayed by the Orthodox Faithful and with a unative prayer have been helpful in transforming many in the Spirit. Would listening to your modern day psalmist bob Marley do the same? Will it be possible to pray his song in the church or privately in orthodox spirituality? Would the Orthodox Church pray JAH Rastafari from her pulpit, her Sunday schools from her private devotions?  NEVER! yet you did not hesitate, or pause to consider your reckless actions when you not only indorsed that blasphemous song but the singer as a modern day psalmist , using his baptism which  came way after his heretical song was published with their heretical intentions. You use your jah Rastafari prayer and encourage many to subsist in their heretical attachment and blasphemy, what the church will never use in her private devotion or public service, you advocate with her iconography and worse insistence that it is in accord with her orthodox faith that you do so.


Then came your bringing this Rastafarian man as example of Rastafarian orthodoxy that is in accord with Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church. You not only denied that what he said was unorthodox but you outright defended his racist and hateful heresy as none racist orthodox manifestation of orthodox Faith. Not only that you insinuated that whatever error it might be there it’s because he does not know and you do not agree with it, then you turn around and say oh there is nothing in there that was racist or unorthodox. Which is it?


Then it gets worse, the Rastafarian you chose to bring by being in agreement with slanders the great spiritual teachers of the Orthodox Church, he gives false witness against them and says they teach this hateful heresy as he does. Yet you saw no need to stand against that kind of blasphemy against Christ, or lie against those Orthodox hermits. No you denied what we all can hear with our ears, you continue to insist that you in all this are in the right, and been giving the right witness of the Ethiopian orthodox Tewahedo church and her Tradition.


You not only support how he worships = heterodoxy but invite all to join in such worship. There is only One Right Worship and that is Orthodoxy!
The reason I am repeating all this as If the entire thread has not been about the Faith is because  as you have demonstrated even after you posted this man’s song as an example o orthodox Rastafarian you yourself were the one to deny that you agree with him, and accuse others of misinterpreting you. When that did not fly , you started to defend him as being orthodox and those who refuse to worship as he do are simply being hateful and confused by the demons of their imagination.

I have said all that needs to be said to you, I respect your right to believe any number of things you like. However you or anyone you bring and endorse cannot scandalize, lie about or distort, the Orthodox Church and her Traditions by claiming egomaniac narcissistic racial sophistries and blasphemous heresies such as the above I mentioned are being taught by her or anyone of those lied about Anchorites.

I say enough of this attempt at superficial similarity to conceal the Rastafarian heresy of not only emperor worship but also racial superiority, using scripture to send a distorted message of Salvation of the Black Israel by the African Jesus. If you know what the Orthodox Church teaches, then you still continue to allow those who are continuing in their error without so much as a word of warning instead you imitate them in their errors and sing jah rastafari with them , be happy Jesus  Christ is Black and his hair is nappy then that’s up to you. But neither the Apostles of the Lord nor any of the Orthodox Christian Fathers have given us such Tradition. So Anathema!


I repeat:
May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.

Where have I said that Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie) was a Saint? Where did I say the picture I posted was an icon of the Church worthy of veneration? It was a picture dear sister, that is all. Yes, I am inspired by the Psalms and the life of King David, and I am also inspired by the life and songs of Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie). And yes, I see parrallels in their lives. But that does not mean that I am extolling Bob Marley as a Saint. Do you only listen to Mezmur? Are you not inspired by music, movies, or people in life that are not Orthodox Christians but nevertheless have something of value to offer? If I had posted the picture and declared that Bob Marley should be venerated along with King David, then you would have a right to complain. But I posted the picture simply to encourage us all to sing praises to JAH (God) along with King David and our Tewahedo brother Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie). Now, wouldn't it be better to praise God together rather than arguing about such foolishness?



Selam
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« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2012, 04:53:08 AM »

Who is perfect in doctrine? The Orthodox Church is PERFECT in her DOCTRINE!

The ORTHODOX are PERFECT in their DOCTRINE ! not a speck of heresy in the Orthodox Faith!


Amen! Why are you preaching to the choir?



Selam
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« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2012, 05:09:47 AM »

Who is perfect in doctrine? The Orthodox Church is PERFECT in her DOCTRINE!

The ORTHODOX are PERFECT in their DOCTRINE ! not a speck of heresy in the Orthodox Faith!


Amen! Why are you preaching to the choir?



Selam




Am I preaching to the choir , didn't you just ask in a what appears to be a pious format ,if it had only said who is perfect in their deeds... you however said   :


Quote
Who of us is perfect in doctrine or in practice? I know that I am not. Pray for me.

so I answered you, do not attempt to down play the importance of the adhering to the Orthodox Faith by saying who among us is perfect in doctrine. If you are not in communion with the Orthodox Church in Faith then you are not Orthodox period. so ifs and buts about it.

these days people believe in everything and thus believe in nothing. that is not the Orthodox worship that is why the Orthodox Pray the Creed personally and declair it as one Family in the Divine Liturgy.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2012, 05:19:24 AM »

Who is perfect in doctrine? The Orthodox Church is PERFECT in her DOCTRINE!

The ORTHODOX are PERFECT in their DOCTRINE ! not a speck of heresy in the Orthodox Faith!


Amen! Why are you preaching to the choir?



Selam




Am I preaching to the choir , didn't you just ask in a what appears to be a pious format ,if it had only said who is perfect in their deeds... you however said   :


Quote
Who of us is perfect in doctrine or in practice? I know that I am not. Pray for me.

so I answered you, do not attempt to down play the importance of the adhering to the Orthodox Faith by saying who among us is perfect in doctrine. If you are not in communion with the Orthodox Church in Faith then you are not Orthodox period. so ifs and buts about it.



I am in communion with the Orthodox Church my sister. If you think I shouldn't be, then I will be glad to give you the number of my Priest and you can tell him what a sinner I am. (But know that I have already told him first.  Wink)


Selam
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« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2012, 05:34:54 AM »


gebre, do not worry about me, just stop the lies  and distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions, thank you. you can worship as that rastafarian man you endorsed does, noone will deny you, but that worship is anathema to the RIGHT WORSHIP (ORTHODOXY) so dont pretend it is.


May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.


Selam

The lies and distortions are quite clear gebre, I have as you say been very careful as to filtering the heterodoxy advocated from the Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church Lives. so your caution was duly noted. If your prayer for forgiveness is for real then rejoice because For those who repent of their errors with sincerity God is forgiving and Merciful, May He help you and me bear the fruits of our repentance in the Holy Spirit, Who alone sanctifies and strengthens. amen.


Please list the lies and distortions about our Faith that I have made. Otherwise please do not accuse me falsely.  (BTW, I have PM'd you.)  Peace sister.



Selam




Since you asked I will list it then just limiting on this thread.

When bob Marley sung his mockery of the Christian hope of dying and going to heaven in Jesus Name and advised the people to abandon that hope which he mocked and instead counseled them to work towards earthy life alone because life is right here and now , not the hereafter. You called him a modern day psalmist equal in stature with the holy prophet king David, to make your point appear orthodox; you dare to use the Holy Icon of Ethiopian Orthodox Church, combined with your Jah rastafari! Chant, let me ask you this:

If bob Marley is a modern day psalmist will those who sing his songs achieve theosis since singing his heretical and blasphemous song you count as a prayer? That is what the psalms of David are, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and for generations prayed by the Orthodox Faithful and with a unative prayer have been helpful in transforming many in the Spirit. Would listening to your modern day psalmist bob Marley do the same? Will it be possible to pray his song in the church or privately in orthodox spirituality? Would the Orthodox Church pray JAH Rastafari from her pulpit, her Sunday schools from her private devotions?  NEVER! yet you did not hesitate, or pause to consider your reckless actions when you not only indorsed that blasphemous song but the singer as a modern day psalmist , using his baptism which  came way after his heretical song was published with their heretical intentions. You use your jah Rastafari prayer and encourage many to subsist in their heretical attachment and blasphemy, what the church will never use in her private devotion or public service, you advocate with her iconography and worse insistence that it is in accord with her orthodox faith that you do so.


Then came your bringing this Rastafarian man as example of Rastafarian orthodoxy that is in accord with Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church. You not only denied that what he said was unorthodox but you outright defended his racist and hateful heresy as none racist orthodox manifestation of orthodox Faith. Not only that you insinuated that whatever error it might be there it’s because he does not know and you do not agree with it, then you turn around and say oh there is nothing in there that was racist or unorthodox. Which is it?


Then it gets worse, the Rastafarian you chose to bring by being in agreement with slanders the great spiritual teachers of the Orthodox Church, he gives false witness against them and says they teach this hateful heresy as he does. Yet you saw no need to stand against that kind of blasphemy against Christ, or lie against those Orthodox hermits. No you denied what we all can hear with our ears, you continue to insist that you in all this are in the right, and been giving the right witness of the Ethiopian orthodox Tewahedo church and her Tradition.


You not only support how he worships = heterodoxy but invite all to join in such worship. There is only One Right Worship and that is Orthodoxy!
The reason I am repeating all this as If the entire thread has not been about the Faith is because  as you have demonstrated even after you posted this man’s song as an example o orthodox Rastafarian you yourself were the one to deny that you agree with him, and accuse others of misinterpreting you. When that did not fly , you started to defend him as being orthodox and those who refuse to worship as he do are simply being hateful and confused by the demons of their imagination.

I have said all that needs to be said to you, I respect your right to believe any number of things you like. However you or anyone you bring and endorse cannot scandalize, lie about or distort, the Orthodox Church and her Traditions by claiming egomaniac narcissistic racial sophistries and blasphemous heresies such as the above I mentioned are being taught by her or anyone of those lied about Anchorites.

I say enough of this attempt at superficial similarity to conceal the Rastafarian heresy of not only emperor worship but also racial superiority, using scripture to send a distorted message of Salvation of the Black Israel by the African Jesus. If you know what the Orthodox Church teaches, then you still continue to allow those who are continuing in their error without so much as a word of warning instead you imitate them in their errors and sing jah rastafari with them , be happy Jesus  Christ is Black and his hair is nappy then that’s up to you. But neither the Apostles of the Lord nor any of the Orthodox Christian Fathers have given us such Tradition. So Anathema!


I repeat:
May God forgive me if I have promoted any lies or distortions about the Orthodox Church and her Traditions! Be careful with your accusations my sister.

Where have I said that Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie) was a Saint? Where did I say the picture I posted was an icon of the Church worthy of veneration? It was a picture dear sister, that is all. Yes, I am inspired by the Psalms and the life of King David, and I am also inspired by the life and songs of Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie). And yes, I see parrallels in their lives. But that does not mean that I am extolling Bob Marley as a Saint. Do you only listen to Mezmur? Are you not inspired by music, movies, or people in life that are not Orthodox Christians but nevertheless have something of value to offer? If I had posted the picture and declared that Bob Marley should be venerated along with King David, then you would have a right to complain. But I posted the picture simply to encourage us all to sing praises to JAH (God) along with King David and our Tewahedo brother Bob Marley (Berhane Selassie). Now, wouldn't it be better to praise God together rather than arguing about such foolishness?



Selam

the Icon you posted it with , wasn't it of Ethiopian orthodox Icon of king Davids praising God, and then you put bob marley's  picture next to him in the same poster to impart one message,as you called him a modern day psalmist, now pictures speak thousand words, how much of equality would you have been able to conjure up other than what you have already done?I find Gandhi's life as a person and a politician very inspiring.. how ever  if I were to post the picture of Gandhi and the icon of  st Paul together and called Gandhi modern day apostle of Christ, would that be telling the truth or distorting it? would that alter that Gandhi was never a Christ believer no matter how much he admired him. where as Bob Marly while he was persecuting the message of Christianity and mocking it, to those who would inquire about the nature of the song and the intent of the singer at that time , you chose to not tell the truth. instead you went further and called him a modern day psalmist like David the Prophet of the Lord equal to the false prophesies and mockery of the Christian God and his message of Eternal Life preached by Bob Marley at that time?

when you prayed jah rastafari, which prayer were you using from the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church? does the church pray it privately or in communal prayer? was Bob Marley worshiping God when he was singing that song or mocking him?  so how is it that he can be a modern day psalmist that if one were to pray his songs one would have communion with the Spirit.

The Psalmist David = a saint
the Modern day psalmist , can only be a saint whose works are also inspired by the Spirit, who sanctifies and Strengthens. what you said for all intents and purposes is equating those two, and elevating the message of the singer into that of the Inspired Hymn of the Church.
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« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2012, 05:41:08 AM »

Who is perfect in doctrine? The Orthodox Church is PERFECT in her DOCTRINE!

The ORTHODOX are PERFECT in their DOCTRINE ! not a speck of heresy in the Orthodox Faith!


Amen! Why are you preaching to the choir?



Selam




Am I preaching to the choir , didn't you just ask in a what appears to be a pious format ,if it had only said who is perfect in their deeds... you however said   :


Quote
Who of us is perfect in doctrine or in practice? I know that I am not. Pray for me.

so I answered you, do not attempt to down play the importance of the adhering to the Orthodox Faith by saying who among us is perfect in doctrine. If you are not in communion with the Orthodox Church in Faith then you are not Orthodox period. so ifs and buts about it.



I am in communion with the Orthodox Church my sister. If you think I shouldn't be, then I will be glad to give you the number of my Priest and you can tell him what a sinner I am. (But know that I have already told him first.  Wink)


Selam


 laugh laugh laugh

how typical!

for the record  let me remind you once again.....you .....asked who among us is perfect of Doctrine, and you yourself replied that you know you are not, so..... in the usual contradictory persona I feel like I am talking to two people.... who was the gebre that said the first , and who is the second one who is complaining about not saying the first....  Undecided

ah that is the question is it not?

 will the real gebre please stand up.....

any way good night and fare ye well.
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« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2012, 05:49:33 AM »

My words have failed. So if anyone wants to know what I believe, they can consult the Teachings and Traditions of my beloved Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

Nothing more to say.


(Hiwot, the last time I checked, Gandhi was not baptized into the Orthodox Church. Bob Marley was. I love Gandhi deeply, but Berhane Selassie is my Orthodox brother. The question is: is Berhane Selassie your brother?)



Selam
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« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2012, 08:28:19 AM »

I think that many of GMK's comments are being stretched to logical conclusions he never intended. I can understand Hiwot's sensitivity to matters relating to Rastafarians embracing Orthodoxy--particularly if there is in fact a trend of many doing so without abandoning their former heresies--but I do not think it's fair to accuse or insinuate GMK of heresy. I invited him to give us a frank personal account of what it is about his lifestyle and beliefs that he thinks serve to characterise him as a Rastafarian. I cannot see anything harmful about his brief account in response.

The concerns raised in relation to the video he linked us to are legitimate, I think, particularly given the apparent prominence of race issues in Rastafarian spirituality, but it seems to me that he perhaps posted that link without paying any real attention to the implications of the racial sentiments expressed in that video. I do not agree with his watered down interpretation of those sentiments, but it is at least far from the heretical conceptions of such traditionally held by Rastafarians.
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« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2012, 09:08:24 AM »

I think that many of GMK's comments are being stretched to logical conclusions he never intended. I can understand Hiwot's sensitivity to matters relating to Rastafarians embracing Orthodoxy--particularly if there is in fact a trend of many doing so without abandoning their former heresies--but I do not think it's fair to accuse or insinuate GMK of heresy. I invited him to give us a frank personal account of what it is about his lifestyle and beliefs that he thinks serve to characterise him as a Rastafarian. I cannot see anything harmful about his brief account in response.

The concerns raised in relation to the video he linked us to are legitimate, I think, particularly given the apparent prominence of race issues in Rastafarian spirituality, but it seems to me that he perhaps posted that link without paying any real attention to the implications of the racial sentiments expressed in that video. I do not agree with his watered down interpretation of those sentiments, but it is at least far from the heretical conceptions of such traditionally held by Rastafarians.


I appreciate your objectivity brother.


Selam
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« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2012, 12:49:02 PM »

Dear friend, I have repeatedly stated that I did not post the video as an example of Orthodox doctrine, but simply to demonstrate that some Rastafarians are Orthodox Christians. Who of us is perfect in doctrine or in practice? I know that I am not. Pray for me.

Gebre, it makes very little sense to say "I never posted the video as an example of Orthodoxy; I just posted it to show that some Rastafarians are Orthodox" -- if they are Orthodox, they will be an example of Orthodoxy!  Smiley That's what "Orthodox" means. 'Right believing', if you will. It has nothing to do with perfection in any one individual. None of us are perfect.

Quote
Here is my opinion, and feel free to disagree: It is wrong to worship Christ because of any racial or ethnic depiction, but it is not wrong to rejoice and find comfort in the fact that Our Lord reveals Himself in the ethnicity or race of the person or people to whom He is being revealed.

I can only repeat my own opinion: If "hooray! Christ is black/white/Asian/Native American!" is your reaction to a particular image, then you've got problems (or perhaps the image has, by its political/social connotations, has failed in its job to call us to repentance). Christ is God, and it is precisely because such depictions of Him vary as a result of cultural outlook/influence that they're really not what you should rejoice in when viewing a particular depiction. Again, color absolutely does not matter. Christ is Christ whether in an Ethiopian icon, a Coptic icon, a Syriac icon, a Greek icon, etc., all of which are very much culturally informed in the way that they depict Christ.

Quote
An example: I worship Christ because He is God and because He is the only hope I have of salvation. However, I do not ignore the fact that He was nonviolent (i.e. He refused to kill), that He preached forgiveness, that He condemned the Pharisees, that He gave hope to sinners, that He performed miracles, that He was a Jew, that He was a man, that He was tempted, that He felt every human emotion known to man, etc. I take great comfort in these things, and if I were talented enough to write songs expressing the joy and happiness that these things give me, then I would surely do so.

I am not seeing the connection between all these things and the rejoicing in a Christ of a particular color. Surely a person of any color or race can be nonviolent, can preach forgiveness, can be tempted, etc. This is actually kind of my point: It is absolutely irrelevant to the worship of Christ what we think His skin color was. That's not what we should be focusing on at all.

Quote
Does the fact that Our Lord was a Jew mean that He hated Gentiles? Of course not! Does the fact that He was nonviolent mean that He hated soldiers? Of course not! So if someone who has been oppressed by a false religion that has imposed the image of a "white Jesus" upon them now finds solace and joy in the fact that they have finally seen Our Lord depicted as Black, then why should we be upset by it?


Huh? I'm not following you. It seems like you're making a leap from behavior or character to skin color, and I don't understand the connection.

Quote
We should be more disturbed by the inhumanity, evils, and injustices that were done to Black people (and "brown" and "red" people) by Europeans who oppressed, tortured, and enslaved in the precious name of Our Lord.

Yes. Yes we should. We be disturbed if any people use Jesus Christ to justify unacceptable behavior or political stances.

Quote
Rather than condemning Rastafarians, let us heed the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." [I Corinthians 9:22]

Yes, and, as the same beloved saint wrote to the Galatians, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." [3:28]
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« Reply #124 on: July 24, 2012, 01:13:16 AM »

Dear friend, I have repeatedly stated that I did not post the video as an example of Orthodox doctrine, but simply to demonstrate that some Rastafarians are Orthodox Christians. Who of us is perfect in doctrine or in practice? I know that I am not. Pray for me.

Gebre, it makes very little sense to say "I never posted the video as an example of Orthodoxy; I just posted it to show that some Rastafarians are Orthodox" -- if they are Orthodox, they will be an example of Orthodoxy!  Smiley That's what "Orthodox" means. 'Right believing', if you will. It has nothing to do with perfection in any one individual. None of us are perfect.

Quote
Here is my opinion, and feel free to disagree: It is wrong to worship Christ because of any racial or ethnic depiction, but it is not wrong to rejoice and find comfort in the fact that Our Lord reveals Himself in the ethnicity or race of the person or people to whom He is being revealed.

I can only repeat my own opinion: If "hooray! Christ is black/white/Asian/Native American!" is your reaction to a particular image, then you've got problems (or perhaps the image has, by its political/social connotations, has failed in its job to call us to repentance). Christ is God, and it is precisely because such depictions of Him vary as a result of cultural outlook/influence that they're really not what you should rejoice in when viewing a particular depiction. Again, color absolutely does not matter. Christ is Christ whether in an Ethiopian icon, a Coptic icon, a Syriac icon, a Greek icon, etc., all of which are very much culturally informed in the way that they depict Christ.

Quote
An example: I worship Christ because He is God and because He is the only hope I have of salvation. However, I do not ignore the fact that He was nonviolent (i.e. He refused to kill), that He preached forgiveness, that He condemned the Pharisees, that He gave hope to sinners, that He performed miracles, that He was a Jew, that He was a man, that He was tempted, that He felt every human emotion known to man, etc. I take great comfort in these things, and if I were talented enough to write songs expressing the joy and happiness that these things give me, then I would surely do so.

I am not seeing the connection between all these things and the rejoicing in a Christ of a particular color. Surely a person of any color or race can be nonviolent, can preach forgiveness, can be tempted, etc. This is actually kind of my point: It is absolutely irrelevant to the worship of Christ what we think His skin color was. That's not what we should be focusing on at all.

Quote
Does the fact that Our Lord was a Jew mean that He hated Gentiles? Of course not! Does the fact that He was nonviolent mean that He hated soldiers? Of course not! So if someone who has been oppressed by a false religion that has imposed the image of a "white Jesus" upon them now finds solace and joy in the fact that they have finally seen Our Lord depicted as Black, then why should we be upset by it?


Huh? I'm not following you. It seems like you're making a leap from behavior or character to skin color, and I don't understand the connection.

Quote
We should be more disturbed by the inhumanity, evils, and injustices that were done to Black people (and "brown" and "red" people) by Europeans who oppressed, tortured, and enslaved in the precious name of Our Lord.

Yes. Yes we should. We be disturbed if any people use Jesus Christ to justify unacceptable behavior or political stances.

Quote
Rather than condemning Rastafarians, let us heed the words of St. Paul the Apostle:
"I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." [I Corinthians 9:22]

Yes, and, as the same beloved saint wrote to the Galatians, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." [3:28]


OK brother. I can't state things any more clearly than I have. I've repeated myself enough here. If anyone can point out anything I have said that is contrary to Orthodox doctrine, then please do so. Otherwise I will leave it at that. Maybe people can reread my posts if they are still confused about where I stand. I have been very clear about my Orthdox views.


Selam
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« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2012, 11:58:33 AM »

Actually Gebre, you are not Orthodox as you are part of a schismatic group not recognized by any other Orthodox church. You just parade around these forums pretending to be something you aren't. Refusing to listen to people who do have authority and instead act on your own authority. You have never been to Ethiopia, so you aren't Ethiopian. Your church is schismatic and is therefore not Orthodox and it was founded right here in america, so it has nothing to do with Ethiopia. So you aren't Ethiopian and you aren't Orthodox. You spend way too much time trolling around here criticizing everyone else while going out of your way to avoid criticism yourself, or even simple questions at times. Wake up bro.
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« Reply #126 on: November 24, 2012, 10:40:28 PM »

Actually Gebre, you are not Orthodox as you are part of a schismatic group not recognized by any other Orthodox church. You just parade around these forums pretending to be something you aren't. Refusing to listen to people who do have authority and instead act on your own authority. You have never been to Ethiopia, so you aren't Ethiopian. Your church is schismatic and is therefore not Orthodox and it was founded right here in america, so it has nothing to do with Ethiopia. So you aren't Ethiopian and you aren't Orthodox. You spend way too much time trolling around here criticizing everyone else while going out of your way to avoid criticism yourself, or even simple questions at times. Wake up bro.

I consider you my friend all the same, and I love you my brother. Hope you are well. I keep you and your family in my unworthy prayers. Continue to pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
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« Reply #127 on: November 24, 2012, 10:55:13 PM »

Actually Gebre, you are not Orthodox as you are part of a schismatic group not recognized by any other Orthodox church. You just parade around these forums pretending to be something you aren't. Refusing to listen to people who do have authority and instead act on your own authority. You have never been to Ethiopia, so you aren't Ethiopian. Your church is schismatic and is therefore not Orthodox and it was founded right here in america, so it has nothing to do with Ethiopia. So you aren't Ethiopian and you aren't Orthodox. You spend way too much time trolling around here criticizing everyone else while going out of your way to avoid criticism yourself, or even simple questions at times. Wake up bro.

I consider you my friend all the same, and I love you my brother. Hope you are well. I keep you and your family in my unworthy prayers. Continue to pray for me, a sinner.


Selam

Indeed, I love you brother, but at the same time I must be obedient. St Ignatius tells us to have nothing to do with schismatics, so you have to understand that I must separate myself from you and hope that one day you can deny yourself and then take up your cross.
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« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2012, 12:01:12 AM »

So Ioannes, can I get your detailed opinion of Protestantism please? Are they Christians?
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« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2012, 01:39:02 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So Ioannes, can I get your detailed opinion of Protestantism please? Are they Christians?

The brother is entitled to feel however he likes about "schismatic" Orthodox parishes, such are deeply personal and also centrifugal issues in the Orthodox experience in America.  Parishes sue each other in open court about these things.  Perhaps his comments would have been better sent in a PM, I myself don't like to air out dirty laundry..

stay blessed,
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« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2012, 03:06:19 AM »

Call me naive. Call me ecumenical. Call me liberal. Call me schismatic. But I truly believe all Orthodox Churches are One, and I pray for formal unity to soon be a reality.


"Lord have mercy."



Selam
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