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Author Topic: A Question For Catholics: Sacraments and "Intent"  (Read 4166 times) Average Rating: 0
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pensateomnia
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« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2012, 09:40:29 AM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.
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« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2012, 09:53:22 AM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.
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« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2012, 10:06:06 AM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.
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« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2012, 10:12:53 AM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 10:15:01 AM by loggats » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2012, 11:14:14 AM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?

Technically true. But not really an idea prevalent before, say, Dionysius the Areopagite. The Orthodox thought, both in piety and canon law, regarding the Eucharist is from an earlier era: priests celebrate only one Eucharist per day and only with others. The Divine Liturgy is inherently communal, i.e. done by and for the worshiping community, not for the edification of the priest or because of something more analogically cosmic.

Also, there simply is no rite other than those which assume "two or three gathered in my name."
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« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2012, 12:22:25 PM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?

Technically true. But not really an idea prevalent before, say, Dionysius the Areopagite.

Well, that would take it back  to the first century, wouldn't it  Grin

I think you meant Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 12:22:41 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: August 23, 2012, 10:44:22 PM »

Welcome to the forum, "Cyrillic". Wink

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

And, oddly enough, it isn't allowed with the OF/NO.
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« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2012, 03:44:19 AM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?

Technically true. But not really an idea prevalent before, say, Dionysius the Areopagite. The Orthodox thought, both in piety and canon law, regarding the Eucharist is from an earlier era: priests celebrate only one Eucharist per day and only with others. The Divine Liturgy is inherently communal, i.e. done by and for the worshiping community, not for the edification of the priest or because of something more analogically cosmic.

Also, there simply is no rite other than those which assume "two or three gathered in my name."

Hmmm maybe this is where the Roman liturgy takes it to another level.
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Halts by me that footfall;
  Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstreched caressingly?
  "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
  I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."
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« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2012, 03:58:46 AM »

Welcome to the forum, "Cyrillic". Wink

Thanks Peter J. I take it that you recognised me?  Wink
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« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2012, 04:01:02 AM »

Welcome to the forum, "Cyrillic". Wink

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

And, oddly enough, it isn't allowed with the OF/NO.

That doesn't seem odd - quite a typically NO thing to do.
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Halts by me that footfall;
  Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstreched caressingly?
  "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
  I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."
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« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2012, 09:50:51 AM »

Welcome to the forum, "Cyrillic". Wink

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

And, oddly enough, it isn't allowed with the OF/NO.

That doesn't seem odd - quite a typically NO thing to do.

Well ... in some ways the NO does return to a more traditional way of doing things, but in many other ways it moves to something completely untraditional (e.g. allowing versus populum).
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« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2012, 10:48:58 AM »

Hmmm maybe this is where the Roman liturgy takes it to another level.

Hard to see it that way. Sacraments are always communal on all levels of the Church. That way there is "symmetry" between the various liturgies, a la Dionysius and Maximos: multiple parts of the human person, multiple persons in the flesh, multiple celestial beings, all at once, thereby reflecting a catholic Kingdom. Every other sacrament requires multiple people, as did the Last Supper itself. Why is the mass different?
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« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2012, 01:18:15 PM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?

I wasn't aware that Orthodoxy had a "Church Suffering"?
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« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2012, 07:37:54 PM »

Hmmm maybe this is where the Roman liturgy takes it to another level.

Hard to see it that way. Sacraments are always communal on all levels of the Church. That way there is "symmetry" between the various liturgies, a la Dionysius and Maximos: multiple parts of the human person, multiple persons in the flesh, multiple celestial beings, all at once, thereby reflecting a catholic Kingdom. Every other sacrament requires multiple people, as did the Last Supper itself. Why is the mass different?

The mass is unique by re-presenting heaven on earth, and renewing man's ontological destiny forever. It's certainly the centremost sacrament. It represents a "cosmic kingdom", not simply uniting multiple entities but consolidating the whole of reality. Maybe that's what makes it different.
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Halts by me that footfall;
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Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."
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« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2012, 07:40:38 PM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?

I wasn't aware that Orthodoxy had a "Church Suffering"?

Really? I had no idea that the Orthodox didn't accept the reality of the Church Suffering.
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Halts by me that footfall;
  Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstreched caressingly?
  "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
  I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."
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« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2012, 07:41:26 PM »

The mass is unique by re-presenting heaven on earth, and renewing man's ontological destiny forever. It's certainly the centremost sacrament. It represents a "cosmic kingdom", not simply uniting multiple entities but consolidating the whole of reality. Maybe that's what makes it different.

This doesn't differ to what the Divine Liturgy is, but still you cannot have the Divine Liturgy without a congregation.
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« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2012, 08:01:42 PM »

The mass is unique by re-presenting heaven on earth, and renewing man's ontological destiny forever. It's certainly the centremost sacrament. It represents a "cosmic kingdom", not simply uniting multiple entities but consolidating the whole of reality. Maybe that's what makes it different.

This doesn't differ to what the Divine Liturgy is, but still you cannot have the Divine Liturgy without a congregation.

The Catholic church acknowledges that the Church Triumphant and Suffering can legitimately function as "congregants".
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Shade of His hand, outstreched caressingly?
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Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."
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« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2012, 08:05:37 PM »

In Orthodoxy, it is the Holy Spirit and not the priest who effects the change. Formally, the change occurs at the Epiklesis where the priest says the following prayer:

"Again we offer to Thee this noetic and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

Make this bread the Precious Body of Thy Christ,

And that which is in this Cup, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ,

Changing by Thy Holy Spirit."

When a deacon is present, the assent of the laos is given his amens that follow each petition to the Holy Spirit. In some Orthodox churches, the laos gives its assent by everybody saying amen. The point I am making here is that, the Orthodox priest is praying on behalf of the entire congregation and nothing can happen without the consent or affirmation by the laos, even if it is just one other person present.

This is interesting. The Sacramentary includes rubrics of the 'Order of Mass Without a Congregation' - is this concept foreign to Orthodoxy?

Yes, it is.

Not only foreign, but impossible and uncanonical.

It's obviously not impossible because the Church sanctions this kind of mass, in some situations.

Not the Orthodox Church. Even in the Gulag, priests would have nearby cellmates tap responses on the wall.

Thanks, I had no idea about that. However, surely the minister is never truly alone (without the Church as a communicating community) - what about the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering?

I wasn't aware that Orthodoxy had a "Church Suffering"?

Really? I had no idea that the Orthodox didn't accept the reality of the Church Suffering.

I'm not Orthodox, and I'm not entirely clear on what they believe happens after death (Vis-à-vis particular judgement, etc.), but I'm pretty sure they don't believe in Purgatory.
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« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2012, 08:07:10 PM »

The Catholic church acknowledges that the Church Triumphant and Suffering can legitimately function as "congregants".

I think the problem is the views are different.  The Catholic Church (at least the Latin Rite) sees that the Mass takes place on earth and those in heaven participate with the actions of the priest.  In Orthodoxy, the Divine Liturgy is meant to transport those on earth into the heavenly Liturgy in the Kingdom of God.  Therefore there must be participants here for us to join them, and not just the priest for them to join us.

Also in Catholic theology, the Eucharist is merely the work of the priest.  In Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is the work of all.  The priest merely offers the sacrifice as the sacrifice is from the people (the bread and wine).  In the days of the temple, the priest doesn't just slaughter animals just because it is what he does.  People need to bring the animals to the priest for him to offer to God.
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« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2012, 08:24:56 PM »

The Catholic church acknowledges that the Church Triumphant and Suffering can legitimately function as "congregants".

I think the problem is the views are different.  The Catholic Church (at least the Latin Rite) sees that the Mass takes place on earth and those in heaven participate with the actions of the priest.  In Orthodoxy, the Divine Liturgy is meant to transport those on earth into the heavenly Liturgy in the Kingdom of God.  Therefore there must be participants here for us to join them, and not just the priest for them to join us.

Also in Catholic theology, the Eucharist is merely the work of the priest.  In Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is the work of all.  The priest merely offers the sacrifice as the sacrifice is from the people (the bread and wine).  In the days of the temple, the priest doesn't just slaughter animals just because it is what he does.  People need to bring the animals to the priest for him to offer to God.

Re use of "merely" - this doesn't seem particulary respectful to the office of the priesthood. Maybe respecting priests isn't a big part of your particular tradition, but in Catholicism they hold a privileged place, first and foremost because they transmit the sacraments. Also, the unbloody sacrifice of the Son of God isn't really comparable to the pagan sacrifice of animals (except in so far as these prefigured the mass) because it is not a simple appeasement, intended to sate the hunger of a bloodthirsty deity.

The priest holds a special place bridging two worlds. Certainly he does so on behalf of the congregation, but also on behalf of all humanity (who cannot all be present, naturally). People will always "bring the animals" to the priest (to use your metaphor) because people will always be in need of Christ's saving action, in all points of time and space.



« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 08:26:10 PM by loggats » Logged

Halts by me that footfall;
  Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstreched caressingly?
  "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
  I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."
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