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Author Topic: Orthodox and the Monarchy  (Read 3465 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 05, 2012, 06:45:10 PM »

Why do Orthodox seem to like Monarchys so much?

Just curious.  Is it just because thats how a lot of Orthodox countries are run?
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 06:51:08 PM »

Some people think anything old and fancy-looking must be good.

Others perhaps do live in a constitutional monarchy, or wish they did. There are still a few left: the U.K., for one.

I said it before, I'll say it again: I like tea and large hats.
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 06:51:52 PM »

God save the Queen!
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 07:05:03 PM »

Why do Orthodox seem to like Monarchys so much?

They read romanticised books about the Byzantine Empire and Holy Russia and think it's all real.

I'm a (constitutional) monarchist. Not because I'm Orthodox, but because I've lived my entire life in countries where such a system operates and I don't see any reason to get rid of it.

Quote
Just curious.  Is it just because thats how a lot of Orthodox countries are run?

As far as i know, that's how 0 Orthodox countries are run.
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 07:07:22 PM »

When I was a Protestant the argument I often heard was that Israel had a monarchy and that that was God's chosen form of government. They say that Israel was wrong to get all riled up until God made Saul king, not because monarchy was wrong, but because God intended for David to be the first king. There were certainly bad kings after that, but then also great kings like Josiah. People who supported this would often say that democracy (or republicanism) was little more than mob rule, and that it wasn't a godly form of government. I suppose Orthodox in particular are partial to Emperors/Czars, as, for better or worse, they dominated politics for most of Church history. And one argument in favor of them is that they can get things done a bit quicker, and so for example they could call an Ecumenical Council any time they wanted and get it done (as opposed to doing it by committee, like they've been doing for 50 years now), though of course this can go in the opposite way as well, with an emperor persecuting Christians or doing other bad things. Just some thoughts from someone who rather likes democracy/republicanism.
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 07:08:29 PM »

There are no currently reigning Orthodox monarchs. AFAIK, there are no countries with an Orthodox majority (or even significant minority) that are monarchies. However, such was not the case until the twentieth century, so the historical absence of Orthodox monarchies is just a blip on the Orthodox radar screen.

Also, much of our imagery refers to kings, queens, etc., so it's not a stretch for an Orthodox Christian to see a monarchic system as being something positive. I say that completely aware that many Orthodox Christians are staunch supporters of republican systems.
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2012, 07:12:01 PM »

Just some thoughts from someone who rather likes democracy/republicanism.
As a balance, of course, to those of us who rather like democracy/constitutional monarchy  Wink.
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2012, 07:13:25 PM »

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say it is due to all of the other failed government systems within the last few hundred years.  When men govern themselves, they usually do stupid things.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2012, 07:15:03 PM »

The problem with systems of elected officials is that you might elect someone who stinks. The problem with a monarch who stinks is that you can't get rid of them until they die. Something to think about.
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2012, 07:19:49 PM »

I think it's a big nostalgia trip for some folks. A big ren-fest or LARP.
For many people it isn't monarchy per se but the current monarch of the UK who they are enamoured with. I think she fills an emotional need for many people, especially men. Without her personality and image I doubt if some of the overseas nations who have the British monarch as their titular head of state will remain in that system.
Several monarchies have been abolished in the last few years, I don't think any new ones have been established.
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2012, 07:33:59 PM »





We're citizens, not subjects!!  God save the Overmountain men!
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2012, 08:08:04 PM »

Would someone please help me understand why this conversation is taking place on Convert Issues?
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2012, 09:02:16 PM »

Would someone please help me understand why this conversation is taking place on Convert Issues?

Because I am a convert, and this is an issue that I was curious about.

If anyone cares to move it, its fine with me.  "Convert Issues" is where I ask a lot of my questions since I am indeed a convert.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2012, 09:03:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The problem with systems of elected officials is that you might elect someone who stinks. The problem with a monarch who stinks is that you can't get rid of them until they die. Something to think about.

History is wrought with deposed and dead kings who the people were displeased with.  There is a world of difference between power (which is fleeting) and authority.

To the OP:

Part of Orthodox ontology is a submission to God, and God's authority.  We submit to the Church because she is appointed by God.  We submit to the government for the same reasons.  When the government is a democracy, it is run by the people, and in this regard, the whims of the people  (influenced by Sin) become the government, forcing us at times to submit to sin.  True, in a monarchy we have the same problem, because the king is a person to, but the difference, submit to a conflicting plurality of sin (i.e., majority rules) or submit the sins of an individual or small group.  Plus, it is easier to convince a small group of leadership to follow the Spirit than a large mass.  

Remember, monarchy only has actual power because people buy into it.  Power is only given when people accept it.  No king exists by their own might, rather, people willingly accept kings for a variety of reasons.  So, there is still a hint of democracy even in monarchy, the difference is, the king serves as a kind of middle man between the changing whims of the common masses.  In Rastafari, we call democracy demonacracy because we feel it gives unnecessary power and influence to diabolical forces who like to whisper into peoples hearts morbid suggestions.

What ever government is there, is put in place by God, and I accept them all, and pray for the presidents as much as the kings, but I feel more comfortable submitting to a king than a "democratically elected" leader, who must yield to shifting opinions like the tides of the Sea which the people are rightfully thought of in prophecy, turbulent, churning, instable and yet also a massive force of nature to be reckoned with.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2012, 09:05:34 PM »

Thanks for the replies everyone. It makes sense that they would favor it since it was the most common form of govt for most of the Church's history.  I see a lot of people talk about going back to a monarchy, and I never know if they are being serious or not.  
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2012, 09:12:40 PM »

Quote
What ever government is there, is put in place by God, and I accept them all, and pray for the presidents as much as the kings, but I feel more comfortable submitting to a king than a "democratically elected" leader, who must yield to shifting opinions like the tides of the Sea which the people are rightfully thought of in prophecy, turbulent, churning, instable and yet also a massive force of nature to be reckoned with.

I agree that we should pray for presidents and kings alike. Heck, we should pray for any politician.  But do we believe that God put our democracy in place? I just want to make sure I understand correctly.  Is there a free will issue here? Could our founding fathers put together another monarchy if they wanted to?

Im not trying to challenge you, im just making sure I understand you correctly. 

And I also dont want to get too far off subject.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2012, 09:42:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
What ever government is there, is put in place by God, and I accept them all, and pray for the presidents as much as the kings, but I feel more comfortable submitting to a king than a "democratically elected" leader, who must yield to shifting opinions like the tides of the Sea which the people are rightfully thought of in prophecy, turbulent, churning, instable and yet also a massive force of nature to be reckoned with.

I agree that we should pray for presidents and kings alike. Heck, we should pray for any politician.  But do we believe that God put our democracy in place? I just want to make sure I understand correctly.  Is there a free will issue here? Could our founding fathers put together another monarchy if they wanted to?

Im not trying to challenge you, im just making sure I understand you correctly. 

And I also dont want to get too far off subject.

Yes, God instituted democracy (Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2) as much as He had monarchy, because what ever actually exists is of or approved of by God.  However, God also allows the free-will of individuals, to the more you empower larger numbers of individuals, the more you risk God having to allow things we might not prefer allowed.  God respects us enough even to allow our mistakes.  God gave us a monarchy to quell the people who had rejected the authority of the priests, and now He has given us democracies for the same reasons.  Democracy is Pandora's Box, it can't be contained or put back away, but the beauty of democracy is we can agree, decide, or vote a monarchy revival.   That being said, we could use a revisiting of constitutional, democratic monarchies (even if symbolic) such as occur in a dozen modern and contemporary nations. Monarchy is not dead, just in decline.  God has not forgotten the kings, just we have Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2012, 09:49:05 PM »

Because it would be cool to have kings and queens. None of this political party BS. I like tradition. I also believe many Americans do lean towards a monarcy in a sense, its why GWB was voted in as Prez.
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2012, 10:14:47 PM »

We're citizens, not subjects!!

Alas, those poor people in hellish places such as Monaco, the Netherlands, and Spain will never taste the freedom that Americans enjoy!

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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2012, 11:14:00 PM »

Thanks for the replies everyone. It makes sense that they would favor it since it was the most common form of govt for most of the Church's history.  I see a lot of people talk about going back to a monarchy, and I never know if they are being serious or not.  
I used to talk to a fellow who was from Russia and Orthodox who would always say Monarchy was the best form of government.  I never saw the appeal until after becoming Orthodox.  Strange, to be honest, I never made the connection.
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2012, 11:17:18 PM »

Because it would be cool to have kings and queens. None of this political party BS. I like tradition. I also believe many Americans do lean towards a monarcy in a sense, its why GWB was voted in as Prez.

In a sense, I agree.  The older I get, the more I realize how much politics actually gets in the way.  Not sure about the second part, unless we take into account people will do pretty much anything they are told if they get something they want in return.  What is the old Roman saying?  "Give them cake and entertainment."
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2012, 11:22:41 PM »

Would someone please help me understand why this conversation is taking place on Convert Issues?

Because I am a convert, and this is an issue that I was curious about.

If anyone cares to move it, its fine with me.  "Convert Issues" is where I ask a lot of my questions since I am indeed a convert.
I'm a convert, too, but that doesn't mean everything I would like to discuss is appropriate for this board. The Convert Issues board is not just a place for threads by converts. It is a place for discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith. If what you want to discuss doesn't have anything to do with the process of conversion to the Orthodox faith, you may want to consider starting the discussion on another section of the forum.
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2012, 11:26:45 PM »

We're citizens, not subjects!!  God save the Overmountain men!

As though there's a difference...
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 03:48:55 AM »

Why do Orthodox seem to like Monarchys so much?

They read romanticised books about the Byzantine Empire and Holy Russia and think it's all real.

I'm a (constitutional) monarchist. Not because I'm Orthodox, but because I've lived my entire life in countries where such a system operates and I don't see any reason to get rid of it.

Quote
Just curious.  Is it just because thats how a lot of Orthodox countries are run?

As far as i know, that's how 0 Orthodox countries are run.

I've lived most of my life in a constitutional monarchy also. Being Orthodox you might expect therefore that I'd at least be a constitutional monarchist myself, but I'm not. I'm adamantly republican. I have no idea why some Orthodox seem so enamoured on an anachronistic system where privilege is bestowed by an accident of birth, but in my experience it's mainly converts in the west (and ones active on the internet at that) that seem to attach themselves to the idea. I've never come across Orthodox in the old countries who are monarchist. There are some fringe groups - I remember seeing 'Monarhia salveaza Romania' graffiti in Bucharest in the '90s, for instance - but nothing significant.

When I met the exiled Romanian royals over here a few years back what struck me was how the Romanians treated them as absolutely no different to anyone else, which was in striking contrast to the way Brits treat their monarchy (and I've met some of the British royals in the past also so I can make direct comparisons).

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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2012, 03:56:17 AM »

I think it's a big nostalgia trip for some folks. A big ren-fest or LARP.

That's how it works for me. A combination of getting older and politically more conservative and being interested in history.

Orthodoxy might have some part in it in the sense that it's a meaning system which is not run by reason but tradition which is fairly exotic for a fellow living in a liberal 21st century West. Besides religious views the overall attitude kind of leaks to other areas of life.
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2012, 07:33:59 AM »

Long live the Queen!

Personally, Orthodoxy has nothing to do with it. I have always been a monarchist.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2012, 07:55:04 AM »



Norway is in a rather unique position as, according to Medieval succession laws, the Norwegian king acts merely as a locum tenens for St. Olav, who is still regarded as the eternal regent.
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2012, 08:05:54 AM »



Norway is in a rather unique position as, according to Medieval succession laws, the Norwegian king acts merely as a locum tenens for St. Olav, who is still regarded as the eternal regent.

Nice Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2012, 09:02:07 AM »

Because "President Jesus Christ, Prime Minister of Republics, Chairman of Chairmen" doesn't quite sound right.  Smiley

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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2012, 09:42:40 AM »

Why do Orthodox seem to like Monarchys so much?

Just curious.  Is it just because thats how a lot of Orthodox countries are run?

If you talk to real, living people at a typical Orthodox parish, as opposed to us 'autobots' online - you will not find any inklings or thoughts of temporal monarchy. Only in the various forums or probably late night yapping sessions among the college aged folks who either inhaled too much or raised too many pints, with a few 19th century minded folks who romanticize the failings of the Romanov dynasty - or at least the failings of the bureaucrats who ran the country- is any sense of 'liking' monarchy out there.

I have no problem with folks who have a monarch as the head of state - I just don't see monarchy and our Faith as needing to be linked.
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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2012, 09:50:13 AM »

Thread locked temporarily for split
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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2012, 09:52:34 AM »

The tangent on the "rebellious provinces of British North America" has been moved to Politics. If you don't yet have access to the private Politics board and would like to follow this side discussion, please send Fr. George a private message requesting this access.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=45691.0
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« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2012, 10:35:00 AM »

Thread reopened
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« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2012, 11:09:53 AM »

When I met the exiled Romanian royals over here a few years back what struck me was how the Romanians treated them as absolutely no different to anyone else, which was in striking contrast to the way Brits treat their monarchy (and I've met some of the British royals in the past also so I can make direct comparisons).

The same is true of the Greek monarchy, who go almost unnoticed when they attend church here.

The difference is that the British monarchy is still in place, whereas the Romanian and Greek ones are now civilians. I doubt Haile Selassie's children get treated like royalty when they're out and about either. Were one of them to return to the Ethiopian imperial throne, however, I'm sure things would be quite different.
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« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2012, 11:43:27 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.
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« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2012, 11:45:42 AM »

The problem with systems of elected officials is that you might elect someone who stinks. The problem with a monarch who stinks is that you can't get rid of them until they die. Something to think about.

I don't know. Regime change is easier when it's only one person who needs to be removed by being torn apart by the mob or suffering an unfortunate accident in the bath (that one happened quite a lot).
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« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2012, 11:46:55 AM »

Thanks for the replies everyone. It makes sense that they would favor it since it was the most common form of govt for most of the Church's history.  I see a lot of people talk about going back to a monarchy, and I never know if they are being serious or not.  

Remember that this is the Internet where you see this.
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« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2012, 11:47:35 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

That's why those of us who are not of such a mindset have to post and remind inquirers that the BEST way to learn about our Faith is NOT here online but at a parish, with a priest - among real people - for as Christ reminds us, whenever two or more gather in His Name - He is among them!
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« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2012, 11:48:46 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

I haven't seen any ultrareactionaryism so far on the thread. For those of us who grew up under constitutional monarchies, monarchists are "normal people" and republicans are the extremists. Context is everything.
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« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2012, 11:55:09 AM »

When I met the exiled Romanian royals over here a few years back what struck me was how the Romanians treated them as absolutely no different to anyone else, which was in striking contrast to the way Brits treat their monarchy (and I've met some of the British royals in the past also so I can make direct comparisons).

The same is true of the Greek monarchy, who go almost unnoticed when they attend church here.

The difference is that the British monarchy is still in place, whereas the Romanian and Greek ones are now civilians. I doubt Haile Selassie's children get treated like royalty when they're out and about either. Were one of them to return to the Ethiopian imperial throne, however, I'm sure things would be quite different.

No, there's more to it than that. Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there. In contrast whenever royalty would come up - even in conversation - at school (I went to military school so it wasn't exactly a usual one) the degree of fawning for even the most minor royals was unbelievable. I seriously had a friend who said of the queen 'She's only human, she breaks wind doesn't she?' (original slightly more vulgar), only to be greeted with a teacher in near apoplexy shouting 'Of course she does not!' That is not a normal way to view any human, much less one whose privilege is derived from an accident of birth. They don't actually do anything (and no you can't convince me that they're good for tourism or any of the usual tripe).

Monarchy is not a superior method of government. It isn't something to be desired and I can't help but shake my head when Orthodox in democracies seem to moon over it like it would be the guarantor of a new golden age. As a Romanian song inspired by my previously mentioned graffiti said 'Criogenia salveaza Romania'. (Cryogenics will save Romania). Longing for some frozen state from the past that, in all honesty never really existed is no way to fix the problems of the present and why some Orthodox seem to think that their faith and monarchy goes hand in hand, I'm happy to say, continues to utterly baffle me.

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« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 11:58:29 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

I haven't seen any ultrareactionaryism so far on the thread. For those of us who grew up under constitutional monarchies, monarchists are "normal people" and republicans are the extremists. Context is everything.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been accused of being an extremist before. What's wrong with preferring democracy over monarchy? You think that believing that I should have a say in who my head of state is rather than simply sitting back and letting someone whose ancestors took without asking is extremist? I'd rather think of it as rational and entirely fair minded.

James
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« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2012, 12:06:04 PM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

I haven't seen any ultrareactionaryism so far on the thread. For those of us who grew up under constitutional monarchies, monarchists are "normal people" and republicans are the extremists. Context is everything.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been accused of being an extremist before. What's wrong with preferring democracy over monarchy? You think that believing that I should have a say in who my head of state is rather than simply sitting back and letting someone whose ancestors took without asking is extremist? I'd rather think of it as rational and entirely fair minded.

James
It wasn't meant in that way. What he means is that in countries such as Norway, Denmark and England, republicans are a minority. At least in Denmark, the criticism of the royals is very rare and I don't think anybody really believe that the monarchy will dissapear soon.
And remember, we still elects our leaders, the royals are those who represent our nations.
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« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2012, 12:11:21 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been accused of being an extremist before. What's wrong with preferring democracy over monarchy? You think that believing that I should have a say in who my head of state is rather than simply sitting back and letting someone whose ancestors took without asking is extremist? I'd rather think of it as rational and entirely fair minded.

I didn't actually say any of that, so don't worry. This isn't the politics forum, so I don't know how far I can respond to your post to clarify what I meant in detail, but a constitutional monarchy need not be less democratic than any republican system. My point was simply that for those of us who grew up under a constitutional monarchy (Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Dutch, Spanish, British, etc.), support for such a system is entirely normal and not indicative of "ultrareactionaryism" or a fantasy-laden nostalgia for a bygone past. So while being a monarchist might be weird in the US, and off-putting to potential converts there, in countries such as England the situation is quite the opposite.
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« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2012, 12:17:07 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been accused of being an extremist before. What's wrong with preferring democracy over monarchy? You think that believing that I should have a say in who my head of state is rather than simply sitting back and letting someone whose ancestors took without asking is extremist? I'd rather think of it as rational and entirely fair minded.

I didn't actually say any of that, so don't worry. This isn't the politics forum, so I don't know how far I can respond to your post to clarify what I meant in detail, but a constitutional monarchy need not be less democratic than any republican system. My point was simply that for those of us who grew up under a constitutional monarchy (Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Dutch, Spanish, British, etc.), support for such a system is entirely normal and not indicative of "ultrareactionaryism" or a fantasy-laden nostalgia for a bygone past. So while being a monarchist might be weird in the US, and off-putting to potential converts there, in countries such as England the situation is quite the opposite.

But the perception is not one regarding a modern constitutional monarchy, but rather an 'idealized' yearning for an absolute, hereditary monarchy where the head of state is both political and ceremonial and religion is subordinate to the monarch as well. That's what the concern is - not about the existing European modern monarchies.
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« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2012, 12:42:49 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been accused of being an extremist before. What's wrong with preferring democracy over monarchy? You think that believing that I should have a say in who my head of state is rather than simply sitting back and letting someone whose ancestors took without asking is extremist? I'd rather think of it as rational and entirely fair minded.

I didn't actually say any of that, so don't worry. This isn't the politics forum, so I don't know how far I can respond to your post to clarify what I meant in detail, but a constitutional monarchy need not be less democratic than any republican system. My point was simply that for those of us who grew up under a constitutional monarchy (Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Dutch, Spanish, British, etc.), support for such a system is entirely normal and not indicative of "ultrareactionaryism" or a fantasy-laden nostalgia for a bygone past. So while being a monarchist might be weird in the US, and off-putting to potential converts there, in countries such as England the situation is quite the opposite.

But the perception is not one regarding a modern constitutional monarchy, but rather an 'idealized' yearning for an absolute, hereditary monarchy where the head of state is both political and ceremonial and religion is subordinate to the monarch as well. That's what the concern is - not about the existing European modern monarchies.
the vast majority of "republics" and "democracies" are monarchies in all but name. And class.  The Democratic People's Republic of Korea comes to mind.
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« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2012, 12:49:01 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.
Exactly. Ingratitude. The monarchy in both cases directly united their respective countries and kept them on the European stage.
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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2012, 01:20:15 PM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2012, 01:21:49 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been accused of being an extremist before. What's wrong with preferring democracy over monarchy? You think that believing that I should have a say in who my head of state is rather than simply sitting back and letting someone whose ancestors took without asking is extremist? I'd rather think of it as rational and entirely fair minded.

I didn't actually say any of that, so don't worry. This isn't the politics forum, so I don't know how far I can respond to your post to clarify what I meant in detail, but a constitutional monarchy need not be less democratic than any republican system. My point was simply that for those of us who grew up under a constitutional monarchy (Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Dutch, Spanish, British, etc.), support for such a system is entirely normal and not indicative of "ultrareactionaryism" or a fantasy-laden nostalgia for a bygone past. So while being a monarchist might be weird in the US, and off-putting to potential converts there, in countries such as England the situation is quite the opposite.

But the perception is not one regarding a modern constitutional monarchy, but rather an 'idealized' yearning for an absolute, hereditary monarchy where the head of state is both political and ceremonial and religion is subordinate to the monarch as well. That's what the concern is - not about the existing European modern monarchies.
the vast majority of "republics" and "democracies" are monarchies in all but name. And class.  The Democratic People's Republic of Korea comes to mind.

Put down this monarchist as objecting strongly to that comparison. North Korea is not a monarchy; it's a dictatorship. There's a difference. In fact, there really aren't any similarities between the definitions of the two words.
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2012, 01:25:36 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.
Exactly. Ingratitude. The monarchy in both cases directly united their respective countries and kept them on the European stage.
You crack me up. Did you just say "ingratitude"? Holy moses, can't  reactionaries be a bit less preachy and moralizing? What should my grandparents' generation should be particularly grateful to Michael for? Most of the barely survived on cornbread and mamaliga. Ypu have no idea.
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2012, 01:28:40 PM »

Holy moses, can't  reactionaries be a bit less preachy and moralizing?

Sure, we could, but where's the fun in that?
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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2012, 02:00:28 PM »

Most Romanians I've spoken to are quite adamant that they do not want the monarchy back - they don't look back on their foreign monarchy with any nostalgia whatsoever, and I can include in this people who still remember when they were on the throne. If you'd been with me when I met them you'd have heard quite disparaging remarks about those royals from many of the Romanians there.

Just like the Greeks then.
Exactly. Ingratitude. The monarchy in both cases directly united their respective countries and kept them on the European stage.
You crack me up. Did you just say "ingratitude"? Holy moses, can't  reactionaries be a bit less preachy and moralizing?
LOL. YOU! Of all pots...

Btw, did you find that data that proves the superiority of that shinning success of Socialism, the Danube Canal, over that epitome of the failure of capitalism, the Erie Canal?

What should my grandparents' generation should be particularly grateful to Michael for? Most of the barely survived on cornbread and mamaliga. Ypu have no idea.
You'd be eating your mama liga in Hungarian and like it, had it not been for Michael.  Had it not been for Cuza, the East of your country would have remained an appendage of Russia and the south of your country a satellite of Turkey. A third of your country and all of your Church would be run by and for Phanariot Greeks, like the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.  And were it not for Carol I and Ferdinand I, you would have been left squabbling amongst yourselves (the reason why the Constitution forbade a royal from marrying a Romanian) and ground down in between the European powers.

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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2012, 02:02:11 PM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.
"My Kingdom is not of this world"  Hence debating the merits of political systems must take a back seat to the Gospel.
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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2012, 03:27:42 PM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.
"My Kingdom is not of this world"  Hence debating the merits of political systems must take a back seat to the Gospel.

This is true. I didn't mean to imply that someone should be unwelcome in the Church because he's not a monarchist (God forbid!). All I meant was that "some people won't like it and may avoid the Church because of it" is no reason for me not to be one.
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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2012, 05:15:28 PM »

Should sOmeone enlighten me as to what doesn't it even mean to be a monarchist in the USA? Other than ridiculous posturing
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2012, 05:19:57 PM »

I don't think the OP was inviting a discussion thread on the relative merits or lack thereof of either a republic or a monarchy. Rather, he seemed to imply that Orthodoxy was linked to a monarchist approach and he inquired as to why that may be so.  

Isa said it best in that the Gospel must take a front seat to the debate over secular, temporal political systems.

I would just remind all that my grandparents, and the grandparents of many - if not most of the earliest Orthodox in the United States - fled from the jackboot and fist of oppressive monarchies - the Hapsburghs, the Romanovs or the Ottomans. While it is true that the White Russian emigres had great influence on parts of the Russian Orthodox church here after the revolution (particularly what is now ROCOR), the truth remains that most of the founders of what is now the OCA were former Greek Catholics fleeing the Hungarians. Anyone professing monarchist leanings at an early 20th century so-called Russian Club, Lemko Hall, Carpathian Club, Ukrainian Hall etc...would have been shown the door after receiving a solid thrashing.
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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2012, 06:13:26 PM »

Should sOmeone enlighten me as to what doesn't it even mean to be a monarchist in the USA? Other than ridiculous posturing

Typically, it means you support the maintenance and restoration of monarchies in other countries, and/or that you would have opposed the Revolution had you been there. Most of us don't have any serious ambition to bring these u.S. back under the Crown.
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« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2012, 08:48:18 PM »

That is not a normal way to view any human, much less one whose privilege is derived from an accident of birth.
This should be frightening to any sane, thinking person.  By an accident of birth, an accident, blahblah is king and we are subjects to his whims.  Next his son or daughter will reign and on and on.  Absolute power corrupts abosolutely.
 
They don't actually do anything...
Not one damn thing.  They're nothing but parasites who live in castles or mansions.  The rest of us break our backs laboring for our daily bread while they attend balls with other royalty. 

Monarchy is not a superior method of government.  Longing for some frozen state from the past that, in all honesty never really existed is no way to fix the problems of the present and why some Orthodox seem to think that their faith and monarchy goes hand in hand, I'm happy to say, continues to utterly baffle me.

[/quote]
It absolutely baffles me and it seems to be the wet dream of the younger crowd.  It'll never happen for America, but if they push it, we'll introduce them to the Second Amendment just like we did in 1776.  Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2012, 08:51:09 PM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2012, 08:55:44 PM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I believe it has split with one section in politics.
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« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2012, 08:59:30 PM »

Um, I thought the Bill of Rights didn't exist until 1789.
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« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2012, 09:00:58 PM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I believe it has split with one section in politics.
What thread?
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« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2012, 09:11:12 PM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I believe it has split with one section in politics.
What thread?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45691.0.html
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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2012, 10:46:25 PM »

Should sOmeone enlighten me as to what doesn't it even mean to be a monarchist in the USA? Other than ridiculous posturing
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45691.msg773702/topicseen.html#msg773702
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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2012, 11:04:50 PM »



Norway is in a rather unique position as, according to Medieval succession laws, the Norwegian king acts merely as a locum tenens for St. Olav, who is still regarded as the eternal regent.

That is awesome.

All hail His Imperial Majesty Justinian, Eternal King of the Hellenes and Emperor of the Romans?
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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2012, 11:07:09 PM »

All hail His Imperial Majesty Justinian, Eternal King of the Hellenes and Emperor of the Romans?

Why not? You're welcome to it Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2012, 11:15:02 PM »



Norway is in a rather unique position as, according to Medieval succession laws, the Norwegian king acts merely as a locum tenens for St. Olav, who is still regarded as the eternal regent.

That is awesome.

All hail His Imperial Majesty Justinian, Eternal King of the Hellenes and Emperor of the Romans?
btw, the Greeks, like the Norwegians, borrowed their royal family from the ruling House of Denmark.  (though they are in part descended from the old Norwegian Royal House, how Norway got hitched to Denmark).
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« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2012, 11:16:31 PM »

btw, the Greeks, like the Norwegians, borrowed their royal family from the ruling House of Denmark.  (though they are in part descended from the old Norwegian Royal House, how Norway got hitched to Denmark).

Of course. That is why the Greeks will always remember their king with disdain. He was, after all (in their thinking), a German.
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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2012, 12:03:09 AM »

Should sOmeone enlighten me as to what doesn't it even mean to be a monarchist in the USA? Other than ridiculous posturing
 

Agreed.  It's almost as ridiculous as being a communist in the USA.
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« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2012, 12:03:38 AM »

btw, the Greeks, like the Norwegians, borrowed their royal family from the ruling House of Denmark.  (though they are in part descended from the old Norwegian Royal House, how Norway got hitched to Denmark).

Of course. That is why the Greeks will always remember their king with disdain. He was, after all (in their thinking), a German.

Well there go my plans for moving to Greece and convincing them to make me their King...
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« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2012, 12:15:19 AM »

Why didn't the Greeks have a Greek king?
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« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2012, 12:21:47 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.

Some scripture supporting holy monarchy:

Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

And Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Every man go to his city.”
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« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2012, 12:26:29 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.

Some scripture supporting holy monarchy:

Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

And Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Every man go to his city.”

This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of monarchy. If anything, this is a stern warning against monarchy.
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« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2012, 12:28:46 AM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I don't see that you've made a formal request, via the "Report to Moderator" function, that this thread be moved to Politics. Why haven't you done so?
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« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2012, 12:34:52 AM »

This is what I said in another thought on essentially the same subject:

It's my position that it doesn't necessarily matter what form of government a given state has. What matters is if the people in charge are obedient to God.

This can happen in an absolute monarchy, a constitutional monarchy, a duarchy (like San Marino today, for example), a republic, or any other conceivable form of governance.

I linked to a few interesting pieces of food for thought on the subject here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40788.msg673649.html#msg673649

Furthermore, we ought to consider 1st Samuel chapter 8, where God informs the people that their desire for a king is in fact a rejection of Him. God warns of what a king could do, saying:

5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

 10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

 19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

 21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”


The result was Saul, who committed suicide for all his failures; then David, who, for all his great works and love for God, was an adulterer and a murderer; Solomon, who for all his wisdom still became an idolator; and so many of the corrupt (morally, spiritually, and politically) rulers that followed them. For every Asa or Josiah, there are Ahabs, Manassehs, and Jehorams. The mismanagement of Israel by one bad king after another eventually led to its destruction. even the capable kings like Omri or Azariah get scant mention in the Bible due to spiritual issues, even though by human terms, they were both successful (Omri, for one, was said to have sinned "more than all those before him" in 1 Kings 16:21-28). The number of bad or spiritually lacking kings of Israel and Judah far outnumbers the number of good kings.

The Israelites only wanted a king to begin with so that they could be like the other nations around them. Instead of being God's people, they wanted to imitate the ways of the world, thus God's initial refusal to give them a king. It was only after they continually pressed God for one that he allowed one, but only after making them aware of the evils the king would commit.

I linked to it in that post I mentioned, but I'll post the link again. Orthodox Answers has a great response on the monarchy vs other forms of government question:

Quote
Thus, we are called to transcend politics and do what is right in the sight of God. When we place our loyalty to any political entity — whether it be a party, a nation or an ideology — above God, disaster follows. One need only look at the early 20th century in places like Germany, Russia and China to see the outcome of party above God. It cost the world millions of lives.

For an excellent example of a Christian transcending politics, see St. Paul's letter to Philemon. He is obedient to the law of the land — he sends back the run away slave Onesimus to his master Philemon; however, he calls Philemon to welcome back his run away slave, not as a slave, but as a brother. Thus, Paul, while obeying the law moves beyond the law to something greater — a vision of the world where

Quote
by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Cor 12:13)

Indeed, according to tradition, Philemon does welcome back Onesimus as brother. Not only is Onesimus freed, but is eventually ordained as a bishop.

Thus, Orthodox Christianity does not promote any kind of political system over another. Rather, it is beyond politics.

Are monarchies there "by the grace of God"? He certainly suffers them to exist, but the kinds of blessings I believe a nation like the USA has been given, in addition to the fact that the nation as a whole is in general more religious than most other countries that are similarly developed (and in some cases, said countries are monarchies), leads me to conclude that a monarchy is not the only form of governance acceptable to Christians.

Though I am neither a fan of Lew Rockwell or his website, and I don't care for Ron Paul, the first half of the actual letter here has some good insight as well, particular until the paragraph that ends with " I believe that it can and that the presidential election of 2008 is the key to this restoration."

Now, I am but an Inquirer, but this seems to me to be a reasonable understanding.
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« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.

Some scripture supporting holy monarchy:

Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

And Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Every man go to his city.”

This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of monarchy. If anything, this is a stern warning against monarchy.
I know.
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« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2012, 12:41:37 AM »



Norway is in a rather unique position as, according to Medieval succession laws, the Norwegian king acts merely as a locum tenens for St. Olav, who is still regarded as the eternal regent.

That is awesome.

All hail His Imperial Majesty Justinian, Eternal King of the Hellenes and Emperor of the Romans?
btw, the Greeks, like the Norwegians, borrowed their royal family from the ruling House of Denmark.  (though they are in part descended from the old Norwegian Royal House, how Norway got hitched to Denmark).

Umm, not quite. The first post-Ottoman king of Greece was Otto I, a Bavarian prince. Though, given the incestuous nature of the various European royal houses at the time, pinning down an authentic nationality for these people ain't an easy gig.  Wink laugh laugh
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« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2012, 12:43:18 AM »

This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of monarchy. If anything, this is a stern warning against monarchy.
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« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2012, 12:44:50 AM »

This kind of ultrareactionaryism amongst Orthodox may discourage normal people from converting to the true faith.

Maybe. But truth is truth. Either monarchy is better or it's not. Truth doesn't depend on conforming our ideas to the godless culture for evangelism's sake, sadly.

Some scripture supporting holy monarchy:

Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

And Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Every man go to his city.”

This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of monarchy. If anything, this is a stern warning against monarchy.
I know.
I kinda had a sense you might have been employing some rhetorical irony. Wink I just couldn't tell for certain in this text-only medium. Cool
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« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2012, 12:45:02 AM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I don't see that you've made a formal request, via the "Report to Moderator" function, that this thread be moved to Politics. Why haven't you done so?
Not my job
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« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2012, 12:47:14 AM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I don't see that you've made a formal request, via the "Report to Moderator" function, that this thread be moved to Politics. Why haven't you done so?
Not my job
The moderators would rather you report the thread privately than ask publicly why the thread hasn't been moved yet, since public question of our inaction is much the same thing as public question of our action.
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« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2012, 12:47:57 AM »

Why didn't the Greeks have a Greek king?

Practicality. Realpolitik. The s**tfight that would have erupted with pretenders scrambling for the throne would have dwarfed any dissent over the idea of a foreigner as king. The Great Powers got it right, and saved everybody a lot of trouble, and possibly civil war.
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« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2012, 12:49:03 AM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I don't see that you've made a formal request, via the "Report to Moderator" function, that this thread be moved to Politics. Why haven't you done so?
Not my job
The moderators would rather you report the thread privately than complain publicly that the thread hasn't been moved yet.
It wasn't a complaint. It was a question.
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« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2012, 12:49:46 AM »

Quote from: Achronos on Yesterday at 09:00:58 PM
Quote from: Tallitot on Yesterday at 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Achronos on Yesterday at 08:51:09 PM
edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?

I believe it has split with one section in politics.

What thread?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45691.0.html




the first day this thread was up I pointed this out to the mod's via the "report to mod" function as per forum policy, and it was split into a politics thread.
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« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2012, 12:51:12 AM »

edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?
I don't see that you've made a formal request, via the "Report to Moderator" function, that this thread be moved to Politics. Why haven't you done so?
Not my job
The moderators would rather you report the thread privately than complain publicly that the thread hasn't been moved yet.
It wasn't a complaint. It was a question.
Note the changes I made in my post.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45671.msg773788.html#msg773788
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« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2012, 12:52:23 AM »

No it isn't. I was asking why it wasn't moved, not an attack on the inaction. If there is a valid reason on it not being moved, so be it.

Like William said in the other thread, its like having a conversation in 8 different threads.
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« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2012, 12:53:47 AM »

Quote from: Achronos on Yesterday at 09:00:58 PM
Quote from: Tallitot on Yesterday at 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Achronos on Yesterday at 08:51:09 PM
edit: Political in nature. Why hasn't this moved to politics yet?

I believe it has split with one section in politics.

What thread?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45691.0.html




the first day this thread was up I pointed this out to the mod's via the "report to mod" function as per forum policy, and it was split into a politics thread.
Yes, Tallitot followed correct procedure here.
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« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2012, 06:12:31 AM »

btw, the Greeks, like the Norwegians, borrowed their royal family from the ruling House of Denmark.  (though they are in part descended from the old Norwegian Royal House, how Norway got hitched to Denmark).

Of course. That is why the Greeks will always remember their king with disdain. He was, after all (in their thinking), a German.

The best thing the germans ever gave us.


We really hated him in the start though.
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« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2012, 07:09:01 AM »

Why didn't the Greeks have a Greek king?

Practicality. Realpolitik. The s**tfight that would have erupted with pretenders scrambling for the throne would have dwarfed any dissent over the idea of a foreigner as king. The Great Powers got it right, and saved everybody a lot of trouble, and possibly civil war.

Yeah. Romania started with a local, and switched to a foreignor.  In fact, the monarchy's constitution forbade the royal family from marrying locals, which caused a few constitutional crises.
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« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2012, 07:13:22 AM »



Norway is in a rather unique position as, according to Medieval succession laws, the Norwegian king acts merely as a locum tenens for St. Olav, who is still regarded as the eternal regent.

That is awesome.

All hail His Imperial Majesty Justinian, Eternal King of the Hellenes and Emperor of the Romans?
btw, the Greeks, like the Norwegians, borrowed their royal family from the ruling House of Denmark.  (though they are in part descended from the old Norwegian Royal House, how Norway got hitched to Denmark).

Umm, not quite. The first post-Ottoman king of Greece was Otto I, a Bavarian prince. Though, given the incestuous nature of the various European royal houses at the time, pinning down an authentic nationality for these people ain't an easy gig.  Wink laugh laugh
Ottho didn't last, although he continued to support Greece after he got the boot.  Btw, the Nazis in Denmark, like Kaiser Wilhelm with is cousin Ferdinand, found out that monarchs had authentic nationality.
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« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2012, 10:38:34 AM »

Should sOmeone enlighten me as to what doesn't it even mean to be a monarchist in the USA? Other than ridiculous posturing
 

Agreed.  It's almost as ridiculous as being a communist in the USA.
Where is becoming orthodox in the USA on the ridiculousness scale, huh?
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« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2012, 01:36:25 PM »

Should sOmeone enlighten me as to what doesn't it even mean to be a monarchist in the USA? Other than ridiculous posturing
 

Agreed.  It's almost as ridiculous as being a communist in the USA.
Where is becoming orthodox in the USA on the ridiculousness scale, huh?
To someone who sees Orthodoxy as nothing more than an extension of one's secular culture, I guess it would seem like the ultimate absurdity to become Orthodox in the USA.
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« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2012, 10:32:46 PM »

I find myself increasingly interested in Orthodox theology, fasting, prayers, etc. It'll take some time to get used to it all, but I find myself increasingly liking the idea of me as an Orthodox Christian.

And then I wade into a thread on a topic like monarchism and wonder "Just what am I getting myself into here?"
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« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2012, 10:44:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is not a normal way to view any human, much less one whose privilege is derived from an accident of birth.
This should be frightening to any sane, thinking person.  By an accident of birth, an accident, blahblah is king and we are subjects to his whims.  Next his son or daughter will reign and on and on.  Absolute power corrupts abosolutely.
 


You are of course free to your opinions, but this is not in agreement with the Orthodox Fathers.  There is plenty of rightful criticism against kings, including by many of the Fathers, but over-all, these criticisms apply equally to ALL political leadership and government, not merely those who wear crowns.  The truth is your philosophy is a bit too cynical for Christianity.  The Scriptures in 1 Peter 2 and Romans 13 remind us that GOD INSTITUTES ALL GOVERNMENT, even the inept and corrupt.  It is GOD who is in total control, not ourselves.  This is the demonic misconception of democracy, to lure people into a selfish, self-centered view of government and politics.  The Church, as demonstrated by Acts 5 and Ephesians 2 is a house of believers unified as one body, for one purpose, not to be divided amongst itself.  Democracy is inherently divisive, which is why by and large the Church has supported monarchy through history. 

The reality is the Church supports WHICHEVER government happens to be in place, republican, monarchy, communist, dictatorship, tyrant, or otherwise, and in the meantime, demands that Christians themselves live the example of a truly Christian life which trumps government.  The worst dictatorship only has blind power, but authority is always invested in the people, even under monarchy or dictatorship, not just democracy.  People are the source of all authority, and raw power is only temporary and fleeting. I personally agree most with the contemporary Roman Catholic campaigns regarding social justice and human dignity and equality, but these are not mutually exclusive to monarchy and are not necessarily guaranteed by republican democracy.

The reality is kings or any government, be it the Queen of England, the Democratic President Barack Obama of the US, or the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is instituted NOT BY ACCIDENT, but by the very will and power of God.  Check yourself on that my brother, your caustic political views are not quite in line with theology.  You are again, free to have them, and I respect them, indeed, I am an anarchist at heart, but the Church has tamed that fire in me, and God has showed me the true revolution is pure spiritually reactionary Christianity Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2012, 10:52:42 PM »

I find myself increasingly interested in Orthodox theology, fasting, prayers, etc. It'll take some time to get used to it all, but I find myself increasingly liking the idea of me as an Orthodox Christian.

And then I wade into a thread on a topic like monarchism and wonder "Just what am I getting myself into here?"

Speaking as an American born Orthodox from an Orthodox family, I will reiterate what I said earlier.

I  have NEVER heard anyone in my family or my church or any other church with which I am personally familiar, nor have I ever heard any of the hundreds of clergy I have known in my life and the six or so Bishops speak AT ALL about this subject, let alone as representing that secular monarchy is the God-preferred means of human government. Not one word, not one sermon, not one article in our Diocesan newspapers and annual publications ---- not an iota of thought on the subject.

This is an arcane exercise entered into online and in the fevered imaginations of people with little but time on their hands. Don't let this silly discussion steer you away from the Faith and the pursuit of truth.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 10:52:57 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2012, 11:11:39 PM »

I find myself increasingly interested in Orthodox theology, fasting, prayers, etc. It'll take some time to get used to it all, but I find myself increasingly liking the idea of me as an Orthodox Christian.

And then I wade into a thread on a topic like monarchism and wonder "Just what am I getting myself into here?"

Speaking as an American born Orthodox from an Orthodox family, I will reiterate what I said earlier.

I  have NEVER heard anyone in my family or my church or any other church with which I am personally familiar, nor have I ever heard any of the hundreds of clergy I have known in my life and the six or so Bishops speak AT ALL about this subject, let alone as representing that secular monarchy is the God-preferred means of human government. Not one word, not one sermon, not one article in our Diocesan newspapers and annual publications ---- not an iota of thought on the subject.

This is an arcane exercise entered into online and in the fevered imaginations of people with little but time on their hands. Don't let this silly discussion steer you away from the Faith and the pursuit of truth.
+1

I was a monarchist long before I had anything to do with Orthodoxy.  I'll debate the merits of monarchy with anyone, but never the necessity of being a monarchist to embrace Orthodoxy.  For there is no such requirement.  Most of the people at my parish are die hard republicans.  And Republicans. In all the parishes I've ever been in, no talk of monarchism has ever been brought up, although the responsiblities in a representative republic has been brought up a lot.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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