Author Topic: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?  (Read 1912 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SubdeaconDavid

  • "...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 504
  • Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей
    • Russian Orthodox Tasmania
"Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« on: July 05, 2012, 05:13:51 PM »
Facebook, that home of groups of all shades now has a "Traditional" Western Rite Orthodox group - a closed group which is odd for what should be a missionary endeavour of the Church.  In my own country with one surviving mission centered on St Petroc Monastery and Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) carrying the flag for traditional WR ers with a handful of active WR laymen, perhaps the missionary imperative of the paruchia impels efforts such as this new group.

If there is room for a  "Traditional" WR group, does that mean we have liberal Western-rite, and if so what do they look like?  What shape and identity does the Western-rite paruchia have?  Will it rise anew like the pheonix?


http://www.facebook.com/groups/41697446173/

Quote
Traditional Western Rite Orthodox
15 members
Closed Group
"The united parishes, using the Western Rite, shall bear the name "Western Orthodox". - 1936 Ukase, Russian Orthodox Church

This group is for those who are serving the Western rite in the canonical Orthodox Churches and supporters of the Western rite in the Orthodox Church.


http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/
http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc
http://www.christminster.org/
http://www.westernorthodox.ca/
http://www.westernorthodox.com/
http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark/
http://www.antiochian.org.nz/write/index.htm
http://www.standreworthodox.info/
http://www.russianorthodoxoklahoma.org/
http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/dnn/
http://www.staugustinedenver.org/
http://www.stcolumbachurch.org/
http://www.stgregoryoc.org/
http://www.standreworthodox.com/
http://www.stmichaeloc.org/
http://www.emmanuelorthodox.org/
http://www.ststephensorthodox.org/
http://www.holyincarnation.org/
http://www.stvincentchurch.org/
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/
http://www.stpaulsorthodox.org/
http://www.holyapostlestyler.org/
http://www.st-benedict.org/
http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org/
http://www.saintpatrickorthodox.org/
http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 05:20:44 PM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 05:21:52 PM »
Facebook, that home of groups of all shades now has a "Traditional" Western Rite Orthodox group - a closed group which is odd for what should be a missionary endeavour of the Church.  In my own country with one surviving mission centered on St Petroc Monastery and Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) carrying the flag for traditional WR ers with a handful of active WR laymen, perhaps the missionary imperative of the paruchia impels efforts such as this new group.

If there is room for a  "Traditional" WR group, does that mean we have liberal Western-rite, and if so what do they look like?  What shape and identity does the Western-rite paruchia have?  Will it rise anew like the pheonix?


http://www.facebook.com/groups/41697446173/

Quote
Traditional Western Rite Orthodox
15 members
Closed Group
"The united parishes, using the Western Rite, shall bear the name "Western Orthodox". - 1936 Ukase, Russian Orthodox Church

This group is for those who are serving the Western rite in the canonical Orthodox Churches and supporters of the Western rite in the Orthodox Church.


http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/
http://www.orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc
http://www.christminster.org/
http://www.westernorthodox.ca/
http://www.westernorthodox.com/
http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark/
http://www.antiochian.org.nz/write/index.htm
http://www.standreworthodox.info/
http://www.russianorthodoxoklahoma.org/
http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org/dnn/
http://www.staugustinedenver.org/
http://www.stcolumbachurch.org/
http://www.stgregoryoc.org/
http://www.standreworthodox.com/
http://www.stmichaeloc.org/
http://www.emmanuelorthodox.org/
http://www.ststephensorthodox.org/
http://www.holyincarnation.org/
http://www.stvincentchurch.org/
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/
http://www.stpaulsorthodox.org/
http://www.holyapostlestyler.org/
http://www.st-benedict.org/
http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org/
http://www.saintpatrickorthodox.org/
http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/
Why not request to join, and ask?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 05:22:37 PM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.
so they fit right in with the Eastern Orthodox in "diaspora."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 05:34:08 PM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.
so they fit right in with the Eastern Orthodox in "diaspora."

LOL. Bazinga!
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Sleeper

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,305
  • On hiatus for the foreseeable future.
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 08:50:04 PM »
My guess is that "traditional" Western Rite-ers are attempting (poorly) to distinguish themselves from those Western Rite Orthodox that use the Rites of St. Tikhon ("the Book of Common Prayer" rite from "the Anglicans") and St. Gregory (the "Tridentine" rite of "the Roman Catholics").

The great irony, of course, being that these (perfectly Orthodox in every way) rites were approved precisely because they were the living rites that were "traditioned" (Latin traditio "to transmit, to hand over, to give for safe-keeping") from generation to generation from Apostolic times to our own, via the two streams of catholic Christianity (Rome, and separated daughter Ecclesia Anglicana).

Those that forsake the received tradition in an attempt to re-create their own vision of "Western Orthodoxy" based on their favorite era/place/culture are the non-traditional ones.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,712
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2012, 09:07:33 PM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about how much lace is appropriate for vestments and then getting upset and forming their own groups.
Fixed that for you. ;-)

Just looking at the list of websites in that group description, there's a pretty wide range of "traditional" represented.

Probably just another Facebook WRO group, possibly the difference being that they aren't as friendly to canonically-questionable groups like the ECOF as others might be.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline SubdeaconDavid

  • "...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 504
  • Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей
    • Russian Orthodox Tasmania
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 07:37:28 AM »
My guess is that "traditional" Western Rite-ers are attempting (poorly) to distinguish themselves from those Western Rite Orthodox that use the Rites of St. Tikhon ("the Book of Common Prayer" rite from "the Anglicans") and St. Gregory (the "Tridentine" rite of "the Roman Catholics").

The great irony, of course, being that these (perfectly Orthodox in every way) rites were approved precisely because they were the living rites that were "traditioned" (Latin traditio "to transmit, to hand over, to give for safe-keeping") from generation to generation from Apostolic times to our own, via the two streams of catholic Christianity (Rome, and separated daughter Ecclesia Anglicana).

Those that forsake the received tradition in an attempt to re-create their own vision of "Western Orthodoxy" based on their favorite era/place/culture are the non-traditional ones.
I think you are spot on.  The attempt to recreate "Celtic Orthodoxy" or the Sarum "use" is generally done in total disregard of the rest of the corpus of liturgical and spiritual norms of the Latin Church. It can be an exercise in taking DNA and trying to breathe life into what has long been in disuse, or worse, simply not fully known about.  It is an irony that the Western-rite do not use Latin anyway given that is was the principal language of the pre-Schism Church in the West.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:38:16 AM by SubdeaconDavid »
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 07:45:40 AM »
My guess is that "traditional" Western Rite-ers are attempting (poorly) to distinguish themselves from those Western Rite Orthodox that use the Rites of St. Tikhon ("the Book of Common Prayer" rite from "the Anglicans") and St. Gregory (the "Tridentine" rite of "the Roman Catholics").

The great irony, of course, being that these (perfectly Orthodox in every way) rites were approved precisely because they were the living rites that were "traditioned" (Latin traditio "to transmit, to hand over, to give for safe-keeping") from generation to generation from Apostolic times to our own, via the two streams of catholic Christianity (Rome, and separated daughter Ecclesia Anglicana).

Those that forsake the received tradition in an attempt to re-create their own vision of "Western Orthodoxy" based on their favorite era/place/culture are the non-traditional ones.
I think you are spot on.  The attempt to recreate "Celtic Orthodoxy" or the Sarum "use" is generally done in total disregard of the rest of the corpus of liturgical and spiritual norms of the Latin Church. It can be an exercise in taking DNA and trying to breathe life into what has long been in disuse, or worse, simply not fully known about.  It is an irony that the Western-rite do not use Latin anyway given that is was the principal language of the pre-Schism Church in the West.

why is that ironic?  SS. Cyril and Methodius abandoned Latin.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,542
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2012, 07:57:49 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.

Bingo.  Having a closed group on facebook is akin to having a registration process/moderation staff on a messageboard.  It's a way to maintain control because, as we all know, there are all sorts of people with chips on their shoulders who like to push buttons for no reason other than their own perverse sense of entitlement.

If you're interested, ask to join. 
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline SubdeaconDavid

  • "...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 504
  • Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей
    • Russian Orthodox Tasmania
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2012, 08:00:30 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.

Bingo.  Having a closed group on facebook is akin to having a registration process/moderation staff on a messageboard.  It's a way to maintain control because, as we all know, there are all sorts of people with chips on their shoulders who like to push buttons for no reason other than their own perverse sense of entitlement.

If you're interested, ask to join. 
Closed groups by their very nature generally do not welcome criticism, challenge or disagreement.  Otherwise they would be open.
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2012, 08:04:34 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.

Bingo.  Having a closed group on facebook is akin to having a registration process/moderation staff on a messageboard.  It's a way to maintain control because, as we all know, there are all sorts of people with chips on their shoulders who like to push buttons for no reason other than their own perverse sense of entitlement.

If you're interested, ask to join.  
Closed groups by their very nature generally do not welcome criticism, challenge or disagreement.  Otherwise they would be open.

While joining each group on facebook you need to be accepted by the group's member (or admin).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:04:56 AM by Michał Kalina »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,542
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2012, 08:05:38 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.

Bingo.  Having a closed group on facebook is akin to having a registration process/moderation staff on a messageboard.  It's a way to maintain control because, as we all know, there are all sorts of people with chips on their shoulders who like to push buttons for no reason other than their own perverse sense of entitlement.

If you're interested, ask to join. 
Closed groups by their very nature generally do not welcome criticism, challenge or disagreement.  Otherwise they would be open.

I think you misunderstand me.  

I'm a member of a number of closed groups on facebook (IIRC, the OC.net one is also closed for anti-info mining reasons).  We disagree all the time.  However, when some fool who has no actual interest in the group itself finds his way in (usually under false pretense) and starts attacking people, he is ushered out quickly.  Open groups on facebook are much more difficult to police, so to speak.  

It largely depends on how closed the closed group is.  If you have to go through some rigorous questioning in order to get in, then it's pretty insular.  But if the administrator(s) will accept anyone who asks to join, then it's pretty open regardless of it being "closed."
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline SubdeaconDavid

  • "...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 504
  • Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей
    • Russian Orthodox Tasmania
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2012, 08:06:00 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but Western Rite forums generally suffer from too many people arguing about too many things and then getting upset and forming their own groups. Often, many involved in the forums have never set foot in a Western Rite Orthodox service in their lives but believe they are eminently qualified to pontificate on all things related to Western Rite Orthodoxy. This attitude is probably the biggest factor keeping many potential, actual WRO persons from involving themselves in online discussions about WRO.

Bingo.  Having a closed group on facebook is akin to having a registration process/moderation staff on a messageboard.  It's a way to maintain control because, as we all know, there are all sorts of people with chips on their shoulders who like to push buttons for no reason other than their own perverse sense of entitlement.

If you're interested, ask to join.  
Closed groups by their very nature generally do not welcome criticism, challenge or disagreement.  Otherwise they would be open.

While joining each group on facebook you need to be accepted by the group's member (or admin).
Touche.
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2012, 12:01:15 PM »
Maybe if one joined a group with a resolution NOT to criticize, since there is far too much criticism in WR anyway, it would go better. But, since people of whatever position in WRO online are often too busy bickering rather than praying and actually contributing to WRO in a constructive way, the WRO presence online is doomed to be much more than a cacaphony of squawking know-it-alls.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,712
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2012, 12:16:21 PM »
But, since people of whatever position in WRO online are often too busy bickering rather than praying and actually contributing to WRO in a constructive way, the WRO presence online is doomed to be much more than a cacaphony of squawking know-it-alls.
The online WRO groups seem to be divided between people who believe in it as a solid missionary endeavor and those who seem to be enamored with liturgy as theater, who at the first sign of a slightly cockeyed biretta start screaming, “UR DOING IT WRONG!”

I have an almost infinite amount of interest in the first group, especially in how they choose to baptize what they do in Orthodoxy (and let the reader understand, I think this is a good thing in some instances), but the presence of too many members of the second group prompts a quick click on the “X” in the upper left-hand side of my screen. Though I generally like the theological discussions, I pretty much exit the group as soon as the words "Sacred Heart" or "Corpus Christi" show up on my screen.

But to be fair, I feel the same way about some discussions that go on in ER groups.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 12:16:54 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,734
  • Faith: Orthodox. Truly, madly, deeply
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2012, 01:15:22 PM »
Western rite Orthodoxy is such a new phenomenon that there isn't an aura of tradition which settles many questions in Eastern rite discussions. So no wonder there are so many disagreements. It probably takes at least another century or so for these kind of things to settle down.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 01:15:40 PM by Alpo »
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Carefree T

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: "Traditional" Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 07:36:43 PM »
One of the parishes on that list is the one I found lacking in my thread in this forum, so I don't know what definition they might be giving to "traditional."