Author Topic: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective  (Read 709 times)

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« on: July 05, 2012, 01:26:19 PM »
I was given this article about Christ's sufferings in gethsemane, and I was blown away at some of the odd perspectives espoused:

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.se/2012/03/if-christ-knew-all-things-why-was-his.html

Reason-regulated sorrow and a divided soul?:
Quote
However, sorrow was not in Christ in such a way as to disturb his reason. In other words, our Lord was never overcome with sorrow so as to grieve inordinately or excessively. Rather, our Lord’s sorrow was always perfectly regulated by reason.
And hence we make a distinction between the higher and lower powers of the soul. In the lower parts of the soul, those dealing most directly with sense experience and the passions, Christ did indeed experience both true sorrow and fear. It was the lower part of Christ’s soul that was troubled.
In the higher parts of our Savior’s soul, the Lord experienced the perfect joy of the beatific vision. Here there was no trouble or disturbance, but all was well ordered and perfect.
It was only by a special decree of God that the glory and joy of the beatific vision which so filled these higher realms of the Savior’s soul did not overflow into his soul’s lower portions as well as into his body. Such occurred perfectly only after the Resurrection.

Christ's mind was infused with all created knowledge, but not His uncreated knowledge as the Logos (a eutychian AND nestorian mind?):
Quote
the traditional belief that Jesus, in his human intellect, knew all created things (and also a good number of the possible worlds which could have been created).

What do you guys make of these convoluted and strange claims?
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Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 03:39:40 PM »
Quote
the traditional belief that Jesus, in his human intellect, knew all created things (and also a good number of the possible worlds which could have been created).


A good number of possible worlds?

lulz.

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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 05:11:25 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The father who wrote that seems to be grappling with the two conflicting streams of Christian thought, scholasticism and mysticism.  The Latins loved their scholarly approach, and the Orthodox loved their mystical approach, and the peak of these schools was respectively Thomas Aquinas and Gregory Palamas.  Unfortunately, from the Oriental perspective in the middle, both schools seemed to go on some extremes.  The Mystics got a bit too mystical, and the scholastics got a bit too scholarly, and their theology got a bit harder to understand as it increased in sophistication.  This father who wrote the OP article seems to be trying to inadvertantly bridge the gap by his choice of phrasing and terms. The father seems to be arguing that while Christ possesses the fullness of the knowledge of God, this didn't prevent Him from suffering.  That is to say, the father is asserting that human beings seem to seek solace in the omniscience of God, like the old adage that everything leads to good in long-run of a Christian life.  That God shouldn't grieve because He knows the end of the score, well that is agreeably nonsensical.  Of course God can see the end result and yet still feel sorrow because of the current situation, just as if any of us know the long run is good, but the short term is painful, will experience both the bliss of assurance and yet the tinge and sting of pain from the present moment.

 I don't think his conclusions that Christ experienced sorrow rather than fear is foreign to Orthodox theology, its just the way he explained it is a bit clumsy.  To be sure, there are plenty of points made which can be argued against from an Orthodox perspective, but aside from the devil in the details, the overall conclusion seems sound to me, again, that Christ being the Omniscient Word of God could not experience pure human fear (i.e., from a lack of knowing an anticipated outcome) and instead experienced sorrow (i.e., negative feelings attached to a known rather than an unknown).  I would say that God could also experience fear, but not of the unknown.  I think humans can be afraid entirely of what they know as much as of what they don't know, but then again, I suppose that is just semantics and why the OP website made this distinction between fear and sorrow.  Following their reasoning I find their conclusion sound :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline xariskai

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 05:30:33 PM »
Quote
we make a distinction between the higher and lower powers of the soul...

 In the lower parts of the soul, It was only by a special decree of God that the glory and joy of the beatific vision which so filled these higher realms of the Savior’s soul did not overflow into his soul’s lower portions as well as into his body.
"That which was not assumed is not healed; but that which is united to God is saved." -St. Gregory of Nazianzus
http://books.google.com/books?id=RzswAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA440&lpg=PA440

"The fullness of true human nature has been assumed by the Word, it is our whole humanity that must enter into union with God" -Lossky, Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 10.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 05:38:10 PM by xariskai »

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 07:05:19 PM »
What do you guys make of these convoluted and strange claims?

That they are convoluted and strange.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 10:24:24 PM »
I was given this article about Christ's sufferings in gethsemane, and I was blown away at some of the odd perspectives espoused:

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.se/2012/03/if-christ-knew-all-things-why-was-his.html

Reason-regulated sorrow and a divided soul?:
Quote
However, sorrow was not in Christ in such a way as to disturb his reason. In other words, our Lord was never overcome with sorrow so as to grieve inordinately or excessively. Rather, our Lord’s sorrow was always perfectly regulated by reason.
And hence we make a distinction between the higher and lower powers of the soul. In the lower parts of the soul, those dealing most directly with sense experience and the passions, Christ did indeed experience both true sorrow and fear. It was the lower part of Christ’s soul that was troubled.
In the higher parts of our Savior’s soul, the Lord experienced the perfect joy of the beatific vision. Here there was no trouble or disturbance, but all was well ordered and perfect.
It was only by a special decree of God that the glory and joy of the beatific vision which so filled these higher realms of the Savior’s soul did not overflow into his soul’s lower portions as well as into his body. Such occurred perfectly only after the Resurrection.

Christ's mind was infused with all created knowledge, but not His uncreated knowledge as the Logos (a eutychian AND nestorian mind?):
Quote
the traditional belief that Jesus, in his human intellect, knew all created things (and also a good number of the possible worlds which could have been created).

What do you guys make of these convoluted and strange claims?

St. Cyril's memory is well trampled upon by their novel ideas.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 01:14:43 AM »
Looking for some RC commentary on this, too.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 01:14:55 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 01:23:26 AM »
I was given this article about Christ's sufferings in gethsemane, and I was blown away at some of the odd perspectives espoused:

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.se/2012/03/if-christ-knew-all-things-why-was-his.html

Reason-regulated sorrow and a divided soul?:
Quote
However, sorrow was not in Christ in such a way as to disturb his reason. In other words, our Lord was never overcome with sorrow so as to grieve inordinately or excessively. Rather, our Lord’s sorrow was always perfectly regulated by reason.
And hence we make a distinction between the higher and lower powers of the soul. In the lower parts of the soul, those dealing most directly with sense experience and the passions, Christ did indeed experience both true sorrow and fear. It was the lower part of Christ’s soul that was troubled.
In the higher parts of our Savior’s soul, the Lord experienced the perfect joy of the beatific vision. Here there was no trouble or disturbance, but all was well ordered and perfect.
It was only by a special decree of God that the glory and joy of the beatific vision which so filled these higher realms of the Savior’s soul did not overflow into his soul’s lower portions as well as into his body. Such occurred perfectly only after the Resurrection.

Christ's mind was infused with all created knowledge, but not His uncreated knowledge as the Logos (a eutychian AND nestorian mind?):
Quote
the traditional belief that Jesus, in his human intellect, knew all created things (and also a good number of the possible worlds which could have been created).

What do you guys make of these convoluted and strange claims?

yet another example of the rationalism of the Scholastics getting the better of them.  The volunarists are right.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: Christ's suffering: An odd Catholic perspective
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 07:24:51 AM »
Looking for some RC commentary on this, too.

I'm not sure if we should much care about the writings of a blogger I've never heard of before.
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