Author Topic: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?  (Read 4283 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,761
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2012, 05:54:31 PM »
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 05:55:34 PM by Asteriktos »
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Pan Michał

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 477
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2012, 05:59:59 PM »
Thank You I understand that but...
" The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist."

... now I'm confused to Kerdy's reply. Emphasis added.


I understand. Alas I have no knowledge about protestantism, just catholic/orthodox, so I'm afraid I can't go any further in a specific discussion.

EDITED - for clarity I've added quotation marks instead of quote inside of quote.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:07:31 PM by Pan Michał »

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2012, 06:04:59 PM »
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

You can make anything boring including the exciting world of creed wars.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:05:10 PM by orthonorm »
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,761
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2012, 06:07:08 PM »
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

You can make anything boring including the exciting world of creed wars.

I aspire to the dryness of a modern ecclesiastical historian and the blandness and uncreativity of a Byzantine theologian!  ;D
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline alanscott

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2012, 06:08:01 PM »
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

Oh, I think that's it. I won't assume on Kerdy's behalf but guessing he was referring to the filioque.

Thank You! (For your help as well Pan Michal)
There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

Offline rakovsky

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,318
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2012, 06:12:13 PM »
This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish


That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.
Did you know that making those kinds of signs over yourself is part of Mas.inititian for revealing secrets?

Anyway, where does this strange drawing come from?

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2012, 06:16:01 PM »
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

Oh, I think that's it. I won't assume on Kerdy's behalf but guessing he was referring to the filioque.

Thank You! (For your help as well Pan Michal)

I was.  Sorry for the confusion

Offline rakovsky

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,318
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2012, 06:16:19 PM »
Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.
Isn't it standard in R.Catholic churches to rub one's thumb in a fist over the forehead and lips at one point in the R.C. Mass?

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2012, 06:18:19 PM »
This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish


That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.
Did you know that making those kinds of signs over yourself is part of Mas.inititian for revealing secrets?

Anyway, where does this strange drawing come from?

I bet Mr. * did it himself.

He is the hot thing in outsider digital art.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,761
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2012, 06:39:39 PM »
I bet Mr. * did it himself.

He is the hot thing in outsider digital art.

Indeed, I made it in a basic MS paint program. None of that rich-kid paintshop pro for me! However, I used the curving technique rather than straight lines. Straight lines are so scholastic and western! In Orthodoxy we move and bend and curve!
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Pan Michał

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 477
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2012, 06:42:54 PM »
Indeed, I made it in a basic MS paint program. None of that rich-kid paintshop pro for me! However, I used the curving technique rather than straight lines. Straight lines are so scholastic and western! In Orthodoxy we move and bend and curve!

You should be careful with those, as MS stands for "Mormons & Scientology" ;)

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,260
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2012, 07:14:36 PM »
Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.
Isn't it standard in R.Catholic churches to rub one's thumb in a fist over the forehead and lips at one point in the R.C. Mass?

Yes, but more like what Tallitot said: forehead, lips, heart.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,260
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2012, 07:17:37 PM »
O.K. now I'm confused  ???
The revisions of Constantinople include the teachings about The Holy Spirit, and His relation to the Holy Trinity and how He "interracts" with us. They were included because at that time the Orthodoxy was dogmatically confronted with Arianism. Thus we accept it as our Creed.
Thank You I understand that but...
Quote
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

... now I'm confused to Kerdy's reply. Emphasis added.

You probably figured this out already (I was eating supper while the last several posts were posted) but when we say "Nicene Creed", we almost always mean either the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan-Creed-with-filioque-added.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2012, 06:20:41 AM »
I would prefer if they started using orthodox symbols, IE the cross, IE the Icons, IE anything which we call holy as it means a step in the right direction and they aren't just heading deeper and deeper into Iconoclasm or something worse.
Thank you.

Offline alanscott

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2012, 10:15:39 AM »

I was.  Sorry for the confusion
No worries! Learning (for me anyway) often comes out of such confusion. Not you, but my ignorance caused the confusion. You have simply helped suggest the next door of study I should enter. Thank You and God bless!
Quote

You probably figured this out already (I was eating supper while the last several posts were posted) but when we say "Nicene Creed", we almost always mean either the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan-Creed-with-filioque-added.
Yea, it sometimes takes me a while but I finally caught on!  :) 

Thanks Peter!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 10:32:43 AM by alanscott »
There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

Offline Pan Michał

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 477
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2012, 06:32:44 AM »

Offline sprtslvr1973

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 699
  • "Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2012, 06:14:43 PM »
I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution. I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious. What are your thoughts about this?

Whether the Early Church would be more resembled by modern Orthodoxy or Evangelicalism is not really that important in this case. Just as all trace races and nations are traced to Adam and Noah, so all Christians trace their roots to the Early Church. Let 'em have it
"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24

Offline sprtslvr1973

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 699
  • "Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2012, 06:19:15 PM »
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

Same old Protestants always throwing out what they don't like. Anything for a laugh!
"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24

Offline kevlev

  • Site Supporter
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 117
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2012, 07:25:41 PM »
From my youth have many passions warred against me, but do Thou Thyself defend and save me, O Saviour.

Offline neon_knights

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 513
  • My political hero.
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2012, 07:42:13 PM »
Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?

Yes sir. It's pretty common in Ukraine I believe

Offline kevlev

  • Site Supporter
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 117
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2012, 07:49:14 PM »
Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?

Yes sir. It's pretty common in Ukraine I believe

Interesting.
I had heard of it before, but information on its history and development appears to be rather scant. Does anyone know anything about BRL, aside from what the wikipedia page provides us with?
From my youth have many passions warred against me, but do Thou Thyself defend and save me, O Saviour.

Offline scamandrius

  • Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,537
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek in exile
Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2012, 07:57:06 PM »
Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?

Yes sir. It's pretty common in Ukraine I believe

Interesting.
I had heard of it before, but information on its history and development appears to be rather scant. Does anyone know anything about BRL, aside from what the wikipedia page provides us with?

The one group was Byzantine Rite Catholics but in the 1920s they were being forced to adopt Latinizations.  They did not want to join the Moscow Patriarchate (because of the Revolution) and so they became Byzantine Rite Lutherans using a modified form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom while adding things like a confession of sins at the beginning of the Liturgy, getting rid of the megalynarion and truncating the canon.  Their singing is still in the tradition of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches which is very nice.
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene