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Author Topic: Imperfect Clergy  (Read 3099 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2012, 12:39:24 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?
The thief yells "thief" the loudest, usually  Roll Eyes
I bow to your expertise, but I do recall the communists as a rather loud bunch.
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2012, 12:40:37 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?

Seems pretty clear to me. Just like the anti-pornographers who must keep current of all the porn out there and have collections to rival any pervert, but it is just "for research".

I think it falls under the psychologically insight of: Me thinks and all that.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 12:40:59 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2012, 12:40:53 AM »

Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 12:48:22 AM by augustin717 » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2012, 12:53:15 AM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    

Read your post while I was writing this. I too dated a Romanian for some time and have lived amoung them and have contact with them frequently and . . .

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
Been to Romania and spoken with many Romanians. And the weight of the evidence falls to augustin. The Romanians I've met not matter how folksy pious whatever they are they are the first to poo poo this spiritual father nonsense as well. I've heard at least a dozen stories of the ueber pious Romanian seeking a "spiritual father" and the unhappy outcome as a cautionary tale.

Could be regional or whatever as most of the Romanians I know are from augustin's neck of the woods.
Not sure about that: all my ex's former friends tried to blame Bucharest on how she was.

Been to Romania, spoken to many Romanians, married a Romanian and imported her parents into my home so heard a lot of Romanians.  I have plenty of my own evidence, and much of it contradicts Augustin (although I admit, I don't know what a "prude nun" from a "non-prude nun" he means, so maybe I'm missing something).  As for this spiritual father thing, I've lived in Egypt, and its there, spent a good amount of time in Palestine, Jordan and Syria, and its there, been to Greece several times, and its there.  Though there are cautionary tales.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2012, 01:12:56 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?

Seems pretty clear to me. Just like the anti-pornographers who must keep current of all the porn out there and have collections to rival any pervert, but it is just "for research".

I think it falls under the psychologically insight of: Me thinks and all that.
Answered here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45577.0.html
and all that.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2012, 01:14:56 AM »

Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.
sort of how Ceaucescu and the apparachniks lived off of those useful idiots believing all that workers' paradise crap.
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2012, 01:19:15 AM »

Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.

He did not establish an autocratic aura of a guru/geronda, he was a father and very informal about it. Furthermore he was at the complete disposal of the parish. He worked 24/7 visiting the sick, doing more services than most churches, answering calls, relationship counseling, inquirer classes, taking peoples prayer requests to St. John in San Francisco, it goes on and on. I have no car and he coordinated rides with numerous people to get me to Church and before I left he drove me all the way out to Platina to speak with the monks whose writings brought me into the Church (DTTW) and pay my respects to Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose. He never molested me, though he made offhand comments that were extremely out of character and crude, that I shrugged off in my naivety as tactless veteran speech. If he had done something I would have reported him immediately likely after punching him in the face.

The problem here is not spiritual fatherhood, which is in the Bible and an intrinsic part of Christianity. The problem is that he betrayed it, and we were all naive. There should be training to make sure these things don't happen, and parents should never assume that it could never happen with their Priest. He even told me that a Priest shouldn't even allow himself to be alone with a woman or child lest people get the wrong idea. I learned a lot from him, because you can still learn a lot from a hypocrite.

In retrospect, I think he worked himself half to death to make up for his sins in some way. No, this doesn't justify anything, that's just my thoughts.
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2012, 01:39:06 AM »

I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2012, 01:45:02 AM »

I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession

Did he ever give a penance or advice?
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« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2012, 01:57:49 AM »

I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession

Did he ever give a penance or advice?
Not that I can think of, except for some platitude to try to do better or so.
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« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2012, 02:22:42 AM »

Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.

He did not establish an autocratic aura of a guru/geronda, he was a father and very informal about it. Furthermore he was at the complete disposal of the parish. He worked 24/7 visiting the sick, doing more services than most churches, answering calls, relationship counseling, inquirer classes, taking peoples prayer requests to St. John in San Francisco, it goes on and on. I have no car and he coordinated rides with numerous people to get me to Church and before I left he drove me all the way out to Platina to speak with the monks whose writings brought me into the Church (DTTW) and pay my respects to Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose. He never molested me, though he made offhand comments that were extremely out of character and crude, that I shrugged off in my naivety as tactless veteran speech. If he had done something I would have reported him immediately likely after punching him in the face.

The problem here is not spiritual fatherhood, which is in the Bible and an intrinsic part of Christianity. The problem is that he betrayed it, and we were all naive. There should be training to make sure these things don't happen, and parents should never assume that it could never happen with their Priest. He even told me that a Priest shouldn't even allow himself to be alone with a woman or child lest people get the wrong idea. I learned a lot from him, because you can still learn a lot from a hypocrite.

In retrospect, I think he worked himself half to death to make up for his sins in some way. No, this doesn't justify anything, that's just my thoughts.

In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.

~~

However, use of crude words is alarming and perhaps an indication that this particular priest was not struggling as he should have been. I have rarely met any Orthodox Priest who has used crude language, but when I was a Catholic under Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles, even though crude language was rather commonplace among the diocesan clergy, it was never heard among the Dominican and Claritian Friars whom I knew.

Lord have mercy.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 02:36:21 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2012, 03:05:07 AM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
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« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2012, 03:06:41 AM »

Lord have mercy! My condolences to both you and the victims!
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« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2012, 03:23:12 AM »

I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession
This is actually much closer to my view of spiritual fatherhood. The Church does have a tradition of submission to a person well advanced in the spiritual life, but this is largely a monastic practice, AFAIK. In our secular Western culture, it's actually quite dangerous to seek this kind of focused spiritual direction outside of whatever limited contact one may have with his parish priest. Very few people are truly qualified to be spiritual fathers in the way I understand spiritual fatherhood to be practiced in some monastic communities. For those who recognize this and the wisdom in not seeking a spiritual father outside his parish, one will often apply the title "spiritual father" to his parish priest and be satisfied.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 03:36:18 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2012, 08:02:33 AM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
God desires not the death of sinners but that they should come to repentance.
So the Old Testament taught, and yet had the death penalty.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2012, 09:41:51 AM »

was this priest married?
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« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2012, 10:43:14 AM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
God desires not the death of sinners but that they should come to repentance.
So the Old Testament taught,
So the New Testament still teaches.

and yet had the death penalty.
In this thread, however, it's not the death penalty I'm speaking against (even though I do oppose the death penalty); it's the lynch mob mentality demonstrated by such posters as GabrieltheCelt.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 10:43:55 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2012, 10:46:05 AM »

IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...
How do you understand my words, Nicholas? I can't read through an ellipsis.
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« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2012, 02:26:13 PM »

Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
What do you know of child molestation and demon possession, Zenovia?

I would have to look at the priests  eyes to be certain, after all it is a reflection of a person's soul?   Undecided
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« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2012, 02:36:01 PM »

Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    Sad
In the law, they claim insanity, and no, I'm not persuaded by that any more than possession claims, absent damn good evidence.  "Resist the Devil and he will flee" St. James the Brother of God tells us in Scripture.  People are quite capable of quite horrible things without the aid of the Devil.  All those killings, murders, rapes, butchering etc. in Scripture, and Scripture only records the Devil going into someone with Judas.

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

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« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2012, 02:54:28 PM »

Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    Sad
In the law, they claim insanity, and no, I'm not persuaded by that any more than possession claims, absent damn good evidence.  "Resist the Devil and he will flee" St. James the Brother of God tells us in Scripture.  People are quite capable of quite horrible things without the aid of the Devil.  All those killings, murders, rapes, butchering etc. in Scripture, and Scripture only records the Devil going into someone with Judas.

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked



Okay let me explain where I picked up this concept, or rather the understanding I have of demonic possession.  I heard a man tell a story of how a criminal  held a knife to his wife's neck, and when she started to pray he dropped the knife and apologized.  When someone asked as to why he dropped the knife and apologized, the answer was that it wasn't him that was committing the act, but rather the 'entity' that he had subjected himself to.

Look, I think these things should be mentioned more often, especially with all the occult that is now available to young people on the internet.  I know of someone that went looking up 'vampires' on the internet, and it connected her to an occultic  site.  She fell  into a deep depression afterwards and almost ended up killing herself.   These things are not a joke.   Angry



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« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2012, 03:04:55 PM »

Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
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« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.
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« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM »

These things are not a joke.   Angry

Unfortunately, neither are your posts.
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« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2012, 03:59:04 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.
  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.
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« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2012, 04:18:55 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.


If i were the devil thats exactly what i would want you to believe!

Look, yes there is mental illness but we are very quick to diagnose it a such when all the possibilities are not exhausted.
And i was the first to do so, and to laugh at the possibility of other forces at work.
NOT anymore--i realise (through personal experience) that evil/darkness is much more involved in the world than we think.
Just take a look around at what is going on in this world...humand beings cannot commit all these acts on there own.
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« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2012, 04:22:09 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. Smiley   
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« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2012, 04:40:21 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

Or it could be that crazy demonic discovery of Socrates, the conscience.
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« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2012, 04:43:57 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. Smiley   

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?
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« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2012, 04:49:50 PM »


Okay let me explain where I picked up this concept, or rather the understanding I have of demonic possession.  I heard a man tell a story of how a criminal  held a knife to his wife's neck, and when she started to pray he dropped the knife and apologized.  When someone asked as to why he dropped the knife and apologized, the answer was that it wasn't him that was committing the act, but rather the 'entity' that he had subjected himself to.

Look, I think these things should be mentioned more often, especially with all the occult that is now available to young people on the internet.  I know of someone that went looking up 'vampires' on the internet, and it connected her to an occultic  site.  She fell  into a deep depression afterwards and almost ended up killing herself.   These things are not a joke.   Angry
I agree with you, demon possession is far more common than people realize. A very close friend of mine before I became Orthodox was possessed. However, when someone is possessed it is usually incredibly obvious. They have this aura about them and I even spoke to the damn thing (I didn't get her help. Forgive me a sinner). There is an immediate, noticeable, and disturbing change when the demon takes full control.

I repeat what I said earlier; this priest was not possessed. You should never just assume that someone is possessed, especially in light of multiple personality disorder, because it can cause even worse psycological harm to the person, or make them feel justified in having an excuse (as people have said, "the devil made me do it"). One shouldn't rationalize away the reality of demons, but at the same time it is essential to be grounded and discerning.
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« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2012, 04:58:31 PM »

Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
It's all over the Bay news and most of the news stories don't mention that it was the diocese that immediately defrocked him and called the police. Instead you've got scumbag reporters traipsing about the scene filming the Police ransacking the Church looking for evidence, taking out hard drives, etc, and they have this last and very purposeful shot of the Police locking the door with the sign saying "Closed".
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« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2012, 05:05:49 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
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« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2012, 05:26:49 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.

That is a highly debatable position.
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« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2012, 05:28:53 PM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. Smiley   

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?
I attribute some of my mental illness to demons actually. Without divulging into my personal life I've encountered one in the form of a reincarnated ex-gf.

Now I'll go back into hiding.
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« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2012, 06:02:45 PM »

Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.




In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
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« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2012, 07:09:38 PM »


As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.



I knew a minister who was pleaded guilty to fifty-something counts of child molestation, but only because if it had gone to trial the death penalty would have been on the table. He had been accused quietly before, but not prosecuted. In the end, he did not apologize, but he did quote scripture at his sentencing.

May God have mercy on all who are involved.
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« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2012, 07:10:36 PM »

double post.
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« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2012, 07:16:20 PM »

Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
It's all over the Bay news and most of the news stories don't mention that it was the diocese that immediately defrocked him and called the police. Instead you've got scumbag reporters traipsing about the scene filming the Police ransacking the Church looking for evidence, taking out hard drives, etc, and they have this last and very purposeful shot of the Police locking the door with the sign saying "Closed".

I found a news report that did clarify church officials notified law enforcement.  At least one got it right.
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« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2012, 08:43:11 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
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« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2012, 08:53:38 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Only, at least in IL, if the clergy privilage them.
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« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2012, 09:03:49 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Only, at least in IL, if the clergy privilage them.
Right which is why I said "confidential". Sacramental confession would fall in this category. (so are conversations with attorneys, and healthcare providers in the course of thier duties).
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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2012, 09:09:39 PM »

Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
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« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2012, 09:11:07 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Only, at least in IL, if the clergy privilage them.
Right which is why I said "confidential". Sacramental confession would fall in this category. (so are conversations with attorneys, and healthcare providers in the course of thier duties).
The latter two, again at least in IL, can be admitted in certain categories of cases even for privileged conversations.  Only the clergy one seems to be unopenable by law, unless the religious authorities say so.
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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2012, 09:12:35 PM »

Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Isn't a question of "repentant enough." It is a question of not being repentant at all.
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« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2012, 09:12:52 PM »

That varies from state to state.

And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
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