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Author Topic: Imperfect Clergy  (Read 2793 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2012, 03:31:51 PM »

Not everyone views everything through the lens of forum moderation rules.

Your comments miss the point at an astonishing rate.  While the previous statement applies to your posts rather than you personally, it can also be interpreted as insulting.

Sorry I've contributed to one of the multiple tangents in this thread.

Lord have mercy on this situation.


The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving


Why are you insulting me?   Huh
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
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« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2012, 03:35:19 PM »

In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

Even therapists must report such crimes, in some States, well after the fact they have been committed if they know enough of detail, even if the person having committed them is no longer a threat to anyone.



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« Reply #137 on: July 02, 2012, 03:36:45 PM »



In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?

Michael, would you be so kind as to list a source for this?

Thanks.
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« Reply #138 on: July 02, 2012, 03:36:54 PM »


But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.
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« Reply #139 on: July 02, 2012, 03:38:31 PM »


But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.

This has been suggested.
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« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2012, 03:41:52 PM »

In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.
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« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2012, 03:51:54 PM »

In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".
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« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2012, 03:53:50 PM »

In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".

Right, thanks.  And yes, if he confessed it to another priest, the priest should go to prison.
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« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2012, 03:58:48 PM »

Has the priest confessed to this yet?  I'm glad that the Bishop is taking this seriously but, innocent until proven guilty, yo.  The police have confiscated electronics from his home to search for evidence.  If he confesses or evidence is found then perhaps I will condemn his actions and the mockery made of his office.  Until then...


Lord have mercy.  (A better, more multipurpose prayer does not exist.)


He's absolutely guilty. Multiple witnesses and they found pictures.
Trust me, if I had any doubts I would be sticking up for him.

The multiple witnesses don't really convince me, since testimony has been shown to be false before, though if pictures were found in his possession of some of the victims, then I guess that would be damning evidence.  I hadn't seen any of this after a perfunctory search, but I really didn't look that hard.

If this is true, then God have mercy.


EDIT - And may God be with you and your fellow parishioners.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 03:59:49 PM by vamrat » Logged
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« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2012, 04:02:59 PM »

Not everyone views everything through the lens of forum moderation rules.
And yet those rules are based on something outside themselves. I'm viewing this particular situation with FatherGiryus through the lens of those principles on which the rules of this forum are founded, principles that would exist even if this forum never did. According to those principles, a personal insult is an attack on one's person, not a criticism of one's ideas. Calling one's statement self-serving is not a criticism of one's person.

Your comments miss the point at an astonishing rate.  While the previous statement applies to your posts rather than you personally, it can also be interpreted as insulting.
No insult taken. I may disagree with your opinion, but I don't take such a criticism of my opinions personally.

Sorry I've contributed to one of the multiple tangents in this thread.

Lord have mercy on this situation.


The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving


Why are you insulting me?   Huh
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
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« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2012, 04:07:15 PM »


But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.
Actually, I see my responses to Michael36's issue with the secrecy of the confessional as pertinent to this topic, so I see no reason to start a thread elsewhere. Michael36 has chosen to use this thread for more than the purposes he originally stated in the OP, so I think it appropriate to address on this thread the additional concerns he states on this thread about his priest.
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« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2012, 06:50:23 PM »


Michael, would you be so kind as to list a source for this?

Thanks.
"A cleric or monk who seduces youths or young boys or is found kissing or in any other impure situation is to be publicly flogged and lose his tonsure. He is to be bound in iron chains. For six months he will languish in prison-like confinement and on three days of each week shall fast on barley bread in the evening. After this he will spend another six months under the custodial care of a spiritual elder, remaining in a segregated cell, and giving himself to manual work and prayer, subject to vigils and prayers. He may go for walks but always under the custodial care of two spiritual brethren, and he shall never again associate with youths in private conversation nor in counseling them." I know it comes from St. Basil of Cesaerea, but I can't find the letter this is from,
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« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2012, 06:51:37 PM »


But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.
Actually, I see my responses to Michael36's issue with the secrecy of the confessional as pertinent to this topic, so I see no reason to start a thread elsewhere. Michael36 has chosen to use this thread for more than the purposes he originally stated in the OP, so I think it appropriate to address on this thread the additional concerns he states on this thread about his priest.
Forgive me, I've been venting and I'm far from an expert in Canon Law.
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« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2012, 07:03:56 PM »

All I have to say is this: Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #149 on: July 02, 2012, 07:34:09 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes

The quote was a parody of what Christ said.
Luke 17:2 is your assignment.
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« Reply #150 on: July 02, 2012, 07:35:06 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.

And the bishop then would be a murderer. And you think this is a good response!?  Shame on you for even writing this here on a thread for someone who is genuinely upset over this.

Luke 17:2
Consult Christ's words.
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« Reply #151 on: July 02, 2012, 07:40:21 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Christ has taught us to forgive(he himself forgave murderers, rapists, etc. I've heard worse crimes in hagiographies), and Paul said to leave vengeance to the Lord.
I am having a difficult time not hating him and I may have to abstain from the chalice tomorrow, but I wish him an unnaturally long life so that his repentance may save him. That's the thing I keep reminding myself of, that the judgment he faces is something the most adamant death penalty proponent would cringe at. He's sick. God help him. The death penalty (which he won't get in California) will only cut short his chance to repent which can be said of any hardened sinner. I cannot in good conscience accept it.

This is true, he taught us to forgive.

Again, his example for us for people who harm children leading them to stumble is:
   
New International Version:
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

I wonder if some of you being so light on this subject, even have children.  I have 5.  I am incredibly defensive of my children always.  I agree with our God's example he spoke.  Do you?
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« Reply #152 on: July 02, 2012, 07:42:56 PM »

Has the priest confessed to this yet?  I'm glad that the Bishop is taking this seriously but, innocent until proven guilty, yo.  The police have confiscated electronics from his home to search for evidence.  If he confesses or evidence is found then perhaps I will condemn his actions and the mockery made of his office.  Until then...


Lord have mercy.  (A better, more multipurpose prayer does not exist.)


He's absolutely guilty. Multiple witnesses and they found pictures.
Trust me, if I had any doubts I would be sticking up for him.

The multiple witnesses don't really convince me, since testimony has been shown to be false before, though if pictures were found in his possession of some of the victims, then I guess that would be damning evidence.  I hadn't seen any of this after a perfunctory search, but I really didn't look that hard.

If this is true, then God have mercy.


EDIT - And may God be with you and your fellow parishioners.

Multiple witnesses would not always convince me either on this matter.

What would convince me is a child whom I know well, be it my own, a relatives, or other (so long as I know them and their personality), would look me in the eye and tell me.... There is a direct look that comes out of children, when you know its true, without doubt.   That's all it would take for me.
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« Reply #153 on: July 02, 2012, 07:45:13 PM »

In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".

Right, thanks.  And yes, if he confessed it to another priest, the priest should go to prison.

By American law, they have to reveal if they are "going to" or "continue to" endanger somebody.
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« Reply #154 on: July 02, 2012, 07:57:35 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes

The quote was a parody of what Christ said.
Luke 17:2 is your assignment.
I'm quite familiar with Luke 17:2, thank you very much! I still don't see how that verse endorses your desire to see humans enforce it against child molesters through the use of the death penalty.
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« Reply #155 on: July 02, 2012, 07:59:31 PM »

I would say by all accounts, this is not the work of the possessed.  Influenced.... absolutely, deceived... certainly, but not possessed.

The devil does not need to possess a man to make him do such evil.  Besides, true possession is hard to hide.  Even those with 'perfect possession' (those who do not struggle and welcome the possession) still exude the unmistakable air of evil.  They also usually rise to the heights of society, because the devil rewards his own.

If you ask any spiritual father, you will find out that 'evil' can hide itself very well, and will only be detected by the very pure hearted...usually a spiritual Elder.  I can't imagine how any human being in their right mind, is able to risk so much, and do so much damage to their 'Church', and to Christianity as a whole as to molest a child, in the same way I can't imagine anyone murdering an innocent child or even a wife as in the case of  OJ Simpson? 

Of course one can say murder is a case of temporary insanity, but molesting a child wouldn't fall into that category.  Huh 
 

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« Reply #156 on: July 02, 2012, 09:43:55 PM »

In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".

Right, thanks.  And yes, if he confessed it to another priest, the priest should go to prison.

By American law, they have to reveal if they are "going to" or "continue to" endanger somebody.

Nope. Not when it comes to certain crimes, especially those involving child abuse.
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« Reply #157 on: July 02, 2012, 09:59:12 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes

The quote was a parody of what Christ said.
Luke 17:2 is your assignment.
I'm quite familiar with Luke 17:2, thank you very much! I still don't see how that verse endorses your desire to see humans enforce it against child molesters through the use of the death penalty.

Just being sarcastic brother Smiley
Not through the use of the death penalty, but specifically how our God described it.  They'd be better off.

Not sure if you have children, but I know with my children, or children that my family is close to, this would be the solution.  I have absolutely no room in my heart for people that hurt little kids.  Millstone them & chunk em over.

Honestly on this one subject, endorsement really would not matter to me.  If it was one of my children and I knew for sure it happened, I would not hesitate.  This is one of those things that goes down DEEP...  I think that Jesus saw this, understood this, and agreed with it.   I certainly agree with him.   A millstone & the sea is certainly better off than a blow torch and a pipe wrench.

The OP's story is tragic, and I would not remain calm if it was my children.  I pray that the parish heals.
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« Reply #158 on: July 03, 2012, 12:09:48 AM »

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcised if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succumb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  Shocked

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. Smiley    

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?

Oh, so you are denying the existence of demons and of possession?  Is this a new Church belief, or is this scrupulous adherence to  current 'Western'  attitudes and modes, simply an individual opinion?  Just curious!   Huh



No, I am saying exactly what I said, and I didn't say demons don't exist.
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« Reply #159 on: July 03, 2012, 07:12:01 AM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.

Hey Augustin717, can you provide any proof of these accusations?  I'd like to know in which parishes and monasteries it is considered normal to have drunken, womanizing, sacrament selling clergy and monastics.  Could you provide a bishop's name who thinks this is "normal"?

Since you don't openly state your Faith, nor your jurisdiction, it's hard to guess the location of these troubled parishes.

I don't know how things are done over "back at your home", but, it is rather un-Orthodox to allow these things to go on to such an extent that they seem normal to the faithful where you live.

It certainly isn't normal in the States.  I would think it shouldn't be "normal" anywhere, but, the odd occasion of a man falling in to sin.

It is the teaching of the Orthodox Faith that the clergy (and all faithful) not commit adultery, nor fall victim to any addiction.  IF this is truly going on to such an extent, it needs to be addressed.  To address it, the public needs proof of such indiscretions.   

Please provide proper reference.  Perhaps we can reach out to the bishops or even to the patriarch and inform him of these goings on.

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« Reply #160 on: July 03, 2012, 07:36:17 AM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Hmm, it's because you know, when they get here, those ordinary, "nominal" Orthodox kinda tend to skip[ church even more than they did back home, and then you are left with a concentration of churchier types, which gives you no insight of how things go on in the old country.
Maybe where you're from this is true. It's definitely not true where my wife's from, and where I came to the Church - had it been so I very much doubt that Orthodoxy would have impressed me in the way it did. I know of one priest total from the area that is considered to be rather too worldly and the fact that he is is seen as somewhat of a scandal. The churches are full to bursting at every service (often people have to settle for listening from outside the doors and I'm not talking just on major feasts). What you described earlier in this thread bears no resemblance at all to my experience and as I lived an worked in Romania you certainly can't claim that I have no insight as to how things go in the old country. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of Tradition. Our priest (also Moldovan, maybe that's the difference) referred to it just this past Sunday - not in a self-aggrandising way as you seemed to be implying but in an almost offhand manner, as though it were so normal there was no need for further comment. It strikes me that maybe you have seen or heard of somewhat unhealthy relationships in the west (as have I) and assumed that this is what everyone means by Spiritual Father. It isn't. If I use it I simply mean my confessor. Good confessors, priests who really take their pastoral care seriously should be like Fathers to us. Thankfully all those to whom I have confessed have been.

James
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« Reply #161 on: July 03, 2012, 02:02:12 PM »

James,
Normal people in RM just don't refer to their confessors ("duhovnic" word not widely used in actual speech) as "spiritual fathers" ("Parinte duhovnicesc" never used in actual speech as it would sound pedantic  in the extreme); they'll call them "popa" (most often), "parinte" or "domn' parinte". Believe me I never heard someone in flesh and blood talk of "parintele duhovnicesc". i now, of course, know of a loony younger, monkabee priest back in my home diocese that I guess through contact with Athos and whatnot, introduced previously unknown practices there (like 1 hour confessions, "life confessions", asking for blessings to go here and there, take a shower, soon to take a
*&&^, I wouldn't be surprised etc). He has a small following of mostly socially awkward and inept young people and middle aged, semi-educated ladies, but man, all clergy in the diocese make fun of him, and the bishop "persecutes" him too. So, it's not normal there. But perhaps it's normal elsewhere. Who knows.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:06:20 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #162 on: July 03, 2012, 02:16:28 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.

Hey Augustin717, can you provide any proof of these accusations?  I'd like to know in which parishes and monasteries it is considered normal to have drunken, womanizing, sacrament selling clergy and monastics.  Could you provide a bishop's name who thinks this is "normal"?

Since you don't openly state your Faith, nor your jurisdiction, it's hard to guess the location of these troubled parishes.

I don't know how things are done over "back at your home", but, it is rather un-Orthodox to allow these things to go on to such an extent that they seem normal to the faithful where you live.

It certainly isn't normal in the States.  I would think it shouldn't be "normal" anywhere, but, the odd occasion of a man falling in to sin.

It is the teaching of the Orthodox Faith that the clergy (and all faithful) not commit adultery, nor fall victim to any addiction.  IF this is truly going on to such an extent, it needs to be addressed.  To address it, the public needs proof of such indiscretions.   

Please provide proper reference.  Perhaps we can reach out to the bishops or even to the patriarch and inform him of these goings on.


I have no kind feelings for "write the bishop" busybodies .
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« Reply #163 on: July 03, 2012, 02:31:16 PM »


I didn't ask you to have "feelings" for me, I asked for proof.

As obviously you cannot provide it, I claim all your accusations as false.




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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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« Reply #164 on: July 03, 2012, 02:39:06 PM »

You misread it, Liza. In my book those were not "accusations"at all but rather examples of a saner religious practice than the "AYSF" type which I find repellent ridiculous and self-aggrandizing in the extreme.
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« Reply #165 on: July 03, 2012, 02:52:08 PM »

You misread it, Liza. In my book those were not "accusations"at all but rather examples of a saner religious practice than the "AYSF" type which I find repellent ridiculous and self-aggrandizing in the extreme.

Examples of saner religious practice includes womanizing, drunk clergy?  Really?

What Faith do you belong to?  The information you provide on your avatar really is ambiguous. 

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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« Reply #166 on: July 03, 2012, 06:57:35 PM »

James,
Normal people in RM just don't refer to their confessors ("duhovnic" word not widely used in actual speech) as "spiritual fathers" ("Parinte duhovnicesc" never used in actual speech as it would sound pedantic  in the extreme); they'll call them "popa" (most often), "parinte" or "domn' parinte". Believe me I never heard someone in flesh and blood talk of "parintele duhovnicesc". i now, of course, know of a loony younger, monkabee priest back in my home diocese that I guess through contact with Athos and whatnot, introduced previously unknown practices there (like 1 hour confessions, "life confessions", asking for blessings to go here and there, take a shower, soon to take a
*&&^, I wouldn't be surprised etc). He has a small following of mostly socially awkward and inept young people and middle aged, semi-educated ladies, but man, all clergy in the diocese make fun of him, and the bishop "persecutes" him too. So, it's not normal there. But perhaps it's normal elsewhere. Who knows.
Perhaps this is a regional phenomenon.What part of Romania are you from? My current priest is from Transylvania and grew up under communism. He, his family, and the parish totally contradict what you are saying. The only thing I noticed about him that differs from traditional Orthodox practice is that he won't accept his hand to be kissed when giving a blessing (fine by me, given recent events) though he says this is a personal preference rather than the Romanian practice.
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« Reply #167 on: July 03, 2012, 07:45:22 PM »

James,
Normal people in RM just don't refer to their confessors ("duhovnic" word not widely used in actual speech) as "spiritual fathers" ("Parinte duhovnicesc" never used in actual speech as it would sound pedantic  in the extreme); they'll call them "popa" (most often), "parinte" or "domn' parinte". Believe me I never heard someone in flesh and blood talk of "parintele duhovnicesc". i now, of course, know of a loony younger, monkabee priest back in my home diocese that I guess through contact with Athos and whatnot, introduced previously unknown practices there (like 1 hour confessions, "life confessions", asking for blessings to go here and there, take a shower, soon to take a
*&&^, I wouldn't be surprised etc). He has a small following of mostly socially awkward and inept young people and middle aged, semi-educated ladies, but man, all clergy in the diocese make fun of him, and the bishop "persecutes" him too. So, it's not normal there. But perhaps it's normal elsewhere. Who knows.
Perhaps this is a regional phenomenon.What part of Romania are you from? My current priest is from Transylvania and grew up under communism. He, his family, and the parish totally contradict what you are saying. The only thing I noticed about him that differs from traditional Orthodox practice is that he won't accept his hand to be kissed when giving a blessing (fine by me, given recent events) though he says this is a personal preference rather than the Romanian practice.
Man, in order to get an idea you'd have to live there for a while and also speak the language.  I do not even know what we are talking about right now: that many priests are way more human than those Conciliar Press booklets would allow you to think.
As i've said, whatever you experience here in America is not the same thing as oversees. Dynamics are much different. I know, having seen both.
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