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Author Topic: Imperfect Clergy  (Read 2639 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« on: June 30, 2012, 05:41:57 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 05:49:42 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 05:53:39 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
augustin717
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 05:51:32 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
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Maria
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 05:54:30 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

How can you guarantee that a little evil doesn't breed more serious evils?

Since this fallen priest was in the Army and served in the police department, he might not have been a pervert until later.

An OCA priest gave an excellent Lenten retreat where he mapped out how men/women fall into sins of greed, gluttony, lust, and ultimately perversions of all kinds. It is a gradual process, but a downward spiral, whereby the nous becomes darkened leading to more serious sins to satisfy the passions.

This fallen priest needs our prayers and so do his victims.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 05:57:29 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 05:55:09 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
If that's Orthodoxy, then I want nothing to do with it and am very happy the OP wants nothing to do with it.
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augustin717
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2012, 05:57:30 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

How can you guarantee that a little evil doesn't breed more serious evils?

If this fallen priest was in the Army and served in the police department, he might not have been a pervert until later.

An OCA priest gave an excellent Lenten retreat where he mapped out how men/women fall into sins of greed, gluttony, lust, and ultimately perversions of all kinds. It is a gradual process, but a downward spiral, whereby the nous becomes darkened leading to more serious sins to satisfy the passions.

This fallen priests needs our prayers and so do his victims.




Well, take it from me, but I would suspect someone of unspeakable perversions, as soon as "nous" came out of their mouth. Shocked
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2012, 06:05:18 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2012, 06:08:34 PM »



The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
No, he wasn't possessed, influenced maybe like Fr. George said. I've known at least one possessed person in my life and this man was not possessed. It just astonishes me how he could have such a double life, but this is what sin does, especially perversions.
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augustin717
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 06:12:36 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Can't you just skip my posts as I do with yours?
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2012, 06:14:50 PM »

[
"Since this fallen priest was in the Army and served in the police department, he might not have been a pervert until later. "

I work with children who have been sexual abused as a psychotherapist...The sad news is that for every victim we know about there are about 10 that we don't knoow about..I fear this man has always been a pervert and I fear more victims may come forward...Thank God Bishop Joseph is doing the righht thing and contacted the authorities and didn't switch him to another jurisdiction or diocese as has happened in the past..The Antiochian Diocese of Los Angeles is lucky to have him as is all of Orthodoxy
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2012, 06:15:47 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Can't you just skip my posts as I do with yours?

I actually find you otherwise pretty interesting, though lacking in common courtesy.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2012, 06:20:41 PM »

From what I've gathered talking to people, everyone is shell shocked but holding on. They aren't going to let an obvious attack from the evil one destroy what is true and beautiful; the fullness of the Body of Christ. I'm still worried about the new converts and I know that anti-clerical cradle Orthodox from the old-country are going to say "see! We told you so!". I already see comments on the news articles of, "of course he did this, he's a Priest! What kind of God would allow this.. etc" and I fear that any missionary activity is going to be destroyed.

This is devastating, but I'll get through this. I know that God is with us and watching out for us though. The Epistle and Gospel readings for today give me hope:

"I Corinthians 9:9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me."

"Matthew 9:36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”10 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[d] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."
I honestly didn't understand why Christ only went to the Israelites first. There was a time when I thought that was ethnocentric, but I get it now.

I want to thank everyone for their support, council, and prayers.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 06:21:22 PM by Michael36 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2012, 06:21:07 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.

Maybe this applies?

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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »

IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...
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ialmisry
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2012, 06:44:54 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
Were your teachers [the REAL hot bed of child molesters] as tipsy, womanizing...? it would explain a lot.

Come to think of it, most of the communist party members, comisars and commandants in Romania were tipsy, womanizing (usually more than a bit), bored by "spirituality" and even political philosophy, and selling, you know, everything.
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2012, 06:45:36 PM »

IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...
ROFL
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2012, 07:04:18 PM »



The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
No, he wasn't possessed, influenced maybe like Fr. George said. I've known at least one possessed person in my life and this man was not possessed. It just astonishes me how he could have such a double life, but this is what sin does, especially perversions.

All sin is perversion.
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2012, 07:04:18 PM »

IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...

I had been thinking, lately, that your posts were lacking some of their former poignancy, but you have certainly changed my mind 180 degrees.
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 09:43:44 PM »

Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    Sad
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 10:07:59 PM »

Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   Sad
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    Sad
In the law, they claim insanity, and no, I'm not persuaded by that any more than possession claims, absent damn good evidence.  "Resist the Devil and he will flee" St. James the Brother of God tells us in Scripture.  People are quite capable of quite horrible things without the aid of the Devil.  All those killings, murders, rapes, butchering etc. in Scripture, and Scripture only records the Devil going into someone with Judas.
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 10:10:01 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 10:12:59 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2012, 10:17:11 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 10:18:21 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 10:20:20 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Christ has taught us to forgive(he himself forgave murderers, rapists, etc. I've heard worse crimes in hagiographies), and Paul said to leave vengeance to the Lord.
I am having a difficult time not hating him and I may have to abstain from the chalice tomorrow, but I wish him an unnaturally long life so that his repentance may save him. That's the thing I keep reminding myself of, that the judgment he faces is something the most adamant death penalty proponent would cringe at. He's sick. God help him. The death penalty (which he won't get in California) will only cut short his chance to repent which can be said of any hardened sinner. I cannot in good conscience accept it.
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 10:23:35 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2012, 10:34:59 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Hmm, it's because you know, when they get here, those ordinary, "nominal" Orthodox kinda tend to skip[ church even more than they did back home, and then you are left with a concentration of churchier types, which gives you no insight of how things go on in the old country.
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2012, 10:50:43 PM »

From what I've gathered talking to people, everyone is shell shocked but holding on...<sic>... I want to thank everyone for their support, council, and prayers.

Dear brother, I can only imagine what this must be like.  Major shock mixed with betrayal,...  I love my priest dearly and I would be floored if something like this happened to our parish.  Just continue to pray, as we all are, that when the evidence comes out he will be exonorated.  Remember, there have been many priests, bishops and even saints wrongly accused of crimes they didn't commit.  Pray also for the children whom have been affected.  I pray that the parents haven't latched on to an easy scapegoat as well.  I can imagine that the whole situation is tense with all the emotions; try to stick together as a parish as the Evil One will use this to bring y'all down. 

Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2012, 10:51:44 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you

you mean like the Romanian Patriarchal Cathedral?
I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun.
I'd love to have your definitions not only of a "prude nun," but a "non-prude nun" as well.

Dormition Monastery, another place I frequent, is it also full of "prude nuns"?

No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I've known of plenty of Romanian priests far better and Romanian priests far worse, but if one is indifferent, I can't expect them to see the difference.
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 10:56:33 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Hmm, it's because you know, when they get here, those ordinary, "nominal" Orthodox kinda tend to skip[ church even more than they did back home, and then you are left with a concentration of churchier types, which gives you no insight of how things go on in the old country.
Funny, I find more nominal Orthodox coming to Church, if for nothing else to socialize.  Where else are they going to find Romanians?  Although you may be right that those who have axes to grind might be forced by social convention to show their face in Church more often while in the absence of the expectation of Orthodoxy in "diaspora" they vent their spleens as self proclaimed experts and examples of the old country  instead, and stay away from Church.

So instead of savoring the cream of Romania, we have to seek out and drink down the bitter dregs to get a taste of how things go on in the old country?
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2012, 10:58:50 PM »

Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. Roll Eyes
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Christ has taught us to forgive(he himself forgave murderers, rapists, etc. I've heard worse crimes in hagiographies), and Paul said to leave vengeance to the Lord.
I am having a difficult time not hating him and I may have to abstain from the chalice tomorrow, but I wish him an unnaturally long life so that his repentance may save him. That's the thing I keep reminding myself of, that the judgment he faces is something the most adamant death penalty proponent would cringe at. He's sick. God help him. The death penalty (which he won't get in California) will only cut short his chance to repent which can be said of any hardened sinner. I cannot in good conscience accept it.
I'm holding off answering until hearing from PtA.

In the meantime, stick with my first post.
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2012, 11:02:47 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2012, 11:09:16 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    
Oh, I don't deny that instances occur as Augustine portrays it.  He however explains away the flower of Romanian Orthodoxy as the aberration.  And celebrates the thorns as something to embrace.
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2012, 11:18:35 PM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    
Oh, I don't deny that instances occur as Augustine portrays it.  He however explains away the flower of Romanian Orthodoxy as the aberration.  And celebrates the thorns as something to embrace.

You picked up on that too, huh?  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2012, 11:59:11 PM »

Just continue to pray, as we all are, that when the evidence comes out he will be exonorated.  Remember, there have been many priests, bishops and even saints wrongly accused of crimes they didn't commit.  Pray also for the children whom have been affected.  I pray that the parents haven't latched on to an easy scapegoat as well.  I can imagine that the whole situation is tense with all the emotions; try to stick together as a parish as the Evil One will use this to bring y'all down. 

Lord, have mercy!
He did it. They found pictures he took of the victims naked and "some were very graphic".

I have my concerns about some of the nominal cradles, and unsteady converts, but the core of the Church will continue to support each other. That Church remains a holy place, and now I recognize that it's been the Laity, our deacons, and our Archbishop who have made the place holy, not the deposed Pastor who even at his lowest could not defile that place. I'm afraid to say, the Church will probably just be for the true faithful there now. This is all over the news; who will convert now?
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2012, 12:00:20 AM »

IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...

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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2012, 12:04:03 AM »

Although you may be right that those who have axes to grind might be forced by social convention to show their face in Church more often while in the absence of the expectation of Orthodoxy in "diaspora" they vent their spleens as self proclaimed experts and examples of the old country  instead, and stay away from Church.

Naturally, that disgusting blog "Voices from Russia" made a post about the scandal at the Church. That blog is straight from hell and I don't want to be so much as in the same State as that person when Christ comes again. I could have spit acid at the screen.
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2012, 12:05:08 AM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?

Reading the truth over and over does get tiring for those in denial.

And Habte doesn't cut and paste that stuff, at least some of the time, as I have read typos in his greeting before. Strange but true nevertheless.
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2012, 12:13:04 AM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Can't you just skip my posts as I do with yours?

I actually find you otherwise pretty interesting, though lacking in common courtesy.

What you call common courtesy, I call run of the mill duplicity. At least some posters here are straight up enough on the board and in PMs others whether I like what they say or usually not that I know they ain't full of it.

Others, well the cute and polite schtick runs very thin.
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2012, 12:16:33 AM »

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    

Read your post while I was writing this. I too dated a Romanian for some time and have lived amoung them and have contact with them frequently and . . .

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".

Been to Romania and spoken with many Romanians. And the weight of the evidence falls to augustin. The Romanians I've met not matter how folksy pious whatever they are they are the first to poo poo this spiritual father nonsense as well. I've heard at least a dozen stories of the ueber pious Romanian seeking a "spiritual father" and the unhappy outcome as a cautionary tale.

Could be regional or whatever as most of the Romanians I know are from augustin's neck of the woods.

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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2012, 12:16:49 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2012, 12:19:50 AM »

Well, I would hope any priest would tell his flock not to vote for a party that was anti-life...
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2012, 12:34:39 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2012, 12:36:50 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?
The thief yells "thief" the loudest, usually  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2012, 12:38:23 AM »

Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, he was traditional but not a zealot and never forced political beliefs on anyone. Of course he was pro-life, but I don't know what pro-family is supposed to even mean. I said he took sin seriously especially when it caused harm to another person, which is why his hypocrisy is so disturbing, but personal iniquities he was very understanding of.
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ialmisry
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2012, 12:38:29 AM »

Although you may be right that those who have axes to grind might be forced by social convention to show their face in Church more often while in the absence of the expectation of Orthodoxy in "diaspora" they vent their spleens as self proclaimed experts and examples of the old country  instead, and stay away from Church.

Naturally, that disgusting blog "Voices from Russia" made a post about the scandal at the Church. That blog is straight from hell and I don't want to be so much as in the same State as that person when Christ comes again. I could have spit acid at the screen.
I wouldn't put too much stock in a transsexual who rails against "convertsy."

Though I'd be interested in what he has to say about Abp. Joseph.  Doesn't fit his usual shtick.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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