Author Topic: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?  (Read 34106 times)

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2012, 02:37:56 PM »
Note Fr. George's post here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16910.msg243605.html#msg243605 especially the last part of his post.

Anyone (male or female) who is given a blessing to enter the Holy of Holies (altar area) can do so, but this blessing is given for a specific purpose.

Quote
Canon LXIX - Council of Trullo (Quintisext)

It is not permitted to a layman to enter the sanctuary (Holy Altar, Gk.), though, in accordance with a certain ancient tradition, the imperial power and authority is by no means prohibited from this when he wishes to offer his gifts to the Creator.

This is what I was saying. Laymen are prohibited from entering the altar, when a blessing is given for a layperson to enter this extends also to women.

Quote
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).  Readers were not permitted at the altar, because their duties did not require it.

I may have missed it, but where does it specifically mention subdeacons? When we're talking about readers serving in the altar, we are talking about that office as it came to incorporate the now defunct office of 'taper-bearer'. While the duties of a reader do not require entry to the altar, it was always my impression that the office of taper-bearer did.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2012, 02:49:37 PM »
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

In several churches that I attended, the men did it.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2012, 02:51:14 PM »
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2012, 02:56:31 PM »
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Men and altarboys. In every parish I have been associated with, spanning several jurisdictions.

Same here.   Men & Altar boys.   Antiochian, Greek, Russian, ROCOR, OCA.  On Mt. Athos, women are generally not even allowed on the entire island and the men did everything there.   They even heavily limit female animals / livestock on Athos.   In Jerusalem often the women were even kept at the back of the EO churches.     Oh yes, ^^in Romania too, men only.

I don't know if it is a jurisdictional difference, or if there is a complete error by bishops, or some tradition somewhere in various jurisdictions as to why it happens.   But where I have seen, it was 100% males only.   This was cleaning, painting, serving, maintaining.    Ordained only through the Royal Doors (and newly baptized infant males).  Altar boys through side/back doors/areas.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2012, 02:57:46 PM »
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

At our church some were "more inclined" to become priests.  Others were sub deacons/readers that "perhaps" could be, but they don't know yet etc.   Kind of like a journey.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2012, 03:19:31 PM »
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

Since the norm has been to allow laypeople to perform the roles of the minor offices, many of those who are ordained to minor orders are probably people considering the priesthood. It varies depending on jurisdiction though. In Greek churches being tonsured a reader basically just means you're a young man who attends church regularly - i.e. nothing to do with being on track for the priesthood.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2012, 03:34:11 PM »
Note Fr. George's post here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16910.msg243605.html#msg243605 especially the last part of his post.

Anyone (male or female) who is given a blessing to enter the Holy of Holies (altar area) can do so, but this blessing is given for a specific purpose.

Quote
Canon LXIX - Council of Trullo (Quintisext)

It is not permitted to a layman to enter the sanctuary (Holy Altar, Gk.), though, in accordance with a certain ancient tradition, the imperial power and authority is by no means prohibited from this when he wishes to offer his gifts to the Creator.

This is what I was saying. Laymen are prohibited from entering the altar, when a blessing is given for a layperson to enter this extends also to women.

Quote
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).  Readers were not permitted at the altar, because their duties did not require it.

I may have missed it, but where does it specifically mention subdeacons? When we're talking about readers serving in the altar, we are talking about that office as it came to incorporate the now defunct office of 'taper-bearer'. While the duties of a reader do not require entry to the altar, it was always my impression that the office of taper-bearer did.


On the first point, I apologize, I must have misunderstood you or confused you with another poster.  As to the subdeacons, again I apologize.  I wasn't referencing Fr. George's post with regards to what I said about subdeacons.  Rather, everything I've read on the subject says that, historically, it was only subdeacons and up who were permitted into the altar, and that taper-bearers did not actually enter the altar in the course of their duties.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2012, 04:16:20 PM »
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

In my experience in the Greek tradition in America, minor orders are an afterthought. Subdeacons (and deacons) are inevitably planning to become priests. Chanters/readers, on the other hand, are usually not, but most of them are not tonsured. Acolytes are rarely tonsured.

Women readers are a minority, but are not uncommon.

Offline age234

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2012, 04:36:46 PM »
As I understand it, the participation of women in divine services as readers and even altar servers has been more common and acceptable than in some other churches. But like the minor orders, I don't see the point of reviving dead practices just because it's more PC in some way.

Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

Is serving in the altar the only way a person can participate in the divine services?

Offline age234

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2012, 04:44:22 PM »
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

In my experience in the Greek tradition in America, minor orders are an afterthought. Subdeacons (and deacons) are inevitably planning to become priests. Chanters/readers, on the other hand, are usually not, but most of them are not tonsured. Acolytes are rarely tonsured.

Women readers are a minority, but are not uncommon.

At the Greek churches in my area, they have multiple tonsured readers/canonarchs/chanters, who have no plans to move to higher orders. I think these practices probably vary widely from place to place.

In the Antiochian church the minor orders of reader and psaltis seem to be mostly official designations for roles people are already fulfilling. There are chanters who are ordained in recognition of their abilities though. And these practices are not limited to convert parishes. It seems more dependent on the parish's size and talent pool than anything else.

Subdeacons, though, are usually ordained if they are on the road to the deaconate. That seems to be considered the beginning of the road, while readers and psaltisi (?) are not necessarily expected to advance into the clerical ranks. For this reason, I'd have no problem with ordaining female readers and chanters if it was the church's tradition to do so.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 04:45:49 PM by age234 »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2012, 05:17:34 PM »
Rather, everything I've read on the subject says that, historically, it was only subdeacons and up who were permitted into the altar, and that taper-bearers did not actually enter the altar in the course of their duties.

You might well be right. If you have any specific references, I'd be interested in reading them. With the exception of small missionary parishes and whatnot, most parishes have enough married men who'd be suitable for ordination to the subdiaconate, so I really don't see why the church couldn't restrict service in the altar to subdeacons if that is the correct practice.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2012, 05:18:02 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As I understand it, the participation of women in divine services as readers and even altar servers has been more common and acceptable than in some other churches. But like the minor orders, I don't see the point of reviving dead practices just because it's more PC in some way.

Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

Is serving in the altar the only way a person can participate in the divine services?

Such an excellent point that my blessed priest first explained to me when I was discussing the mistaken outside accusation so pseudo-misogyny.  Women's roles are as important as anyone else's, even if they don't necessarily wear the robes and lead the prayers or readings.  We sometimes glamorize or romanticise these roles of the clergy, but lets be honest, this is more popularism and emotionalism than it is theology or doctrine.  In the Church, during the Divine Liturgy, ALL roles, both those of celebrating clergy and those of the laity, are crucial, integral, fundamentally intertwined.  In the Ethiopian tradition, no Mass can even be spoken of without the attendance of some laypeople.  The response prayers of the people are no less important here than those of a celebrating Bishop!  We pray together. The Body of Christ is One body, and the head is not of any  more consequence than the toes, because what good is a head without an accompanying body?  The body works together for the same aim, Jesus Christ! When we receive Holy Communion, we are brought into an equality, priests and laity alike.  The Holy Communion completes the Divine Liturgy, and this communion (from the Greek "likened as becoming the same) we become the same, that is, the one Body of Christ.  The priests symbolize Christ who is the Head, but it is indeed one body, and the Head is not vaunted necessarily above the organic integrity of the unified body parts.  So when women have their respective positions, roles, and parts to play in the Church, they are no less dignified, no less important, no less Eternal than those of men, or those of the clergy, or any such people.

Men=Women

We diminish the Body of Christ when we arbitrarily impose nonsensical distinctions, as if the fancy of our fickle and fashionable whims was comparable to the Divine continuity of the Church!



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 05:19:37 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2012, 05:29:18 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2012, 05:39:46 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.
Speak for yourself, Devin. "We've always done it this way" is not a reason for anything. Holy Tradition is itself based on theological revelations; therefore, everything in our Tradition has a theological reason. That's why I'm asking you for theological reasons for your opposition to altar girls.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.
But I have every right to question you, and so far you haven't done anything to cooperate. Again, I'm not questioning the Church; I'm questioning you.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.
Amazing you would equate altar girls with woman priests, much less gay marriage, especially since no one else even mentioned gay marriage here.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 05:40:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2012, 05:41:37 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

Beautifully whiny strawmen there, but Peter never suggested any such thing.  He never proposed changing the Church, what he asked was that you support your claims with evidence and not sensationalism.  Perhaps what he was insinuating was that your attitude is in the wrong place, and that if you'd consult the fathers or canons maybe the Holy Spirit would cool down all that self-righteous indignation you have there, and realize that nobody here has been promoting changing the Church, and even the very parish you are griping against did no such thing either! In other words, I think he was hoping God would knock some of the wind out of your over-inflated sails ;)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Ionnis

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2012, 05:42:32 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2012, 05:48:18 PM »
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).

The MP permits the Russian President to commune in the altar. President Putin has done this.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2012, 05:50:10 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2012, 05:54:18 PM »
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).

The MP permits the Russian President to commune in the altar. President Putin has done this.

Hmm, that's interesting.  I'd not known about it.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2012, 05:54:18 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

I sure am glad you were made a bishop or a priest, with the authority to identify and cast out those not welcome in the Body of Christ
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2012, 06:01:26 PM »
I am still waiting for canonical reasons against altar girls. So far, it seems to me that it is just as good or bad as unordained men in the altar.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2012, 06:02:05 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 06:12:52 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2012, 06:43:39 PM »
I am still waiting for canonical reasons against altar girls. So far, it seems to me that it is just as good or bad as unordained men in the altar.

Indeed. The canons oppose laypeople in the altar. That we are essentially rendering meaningless the minor orders by allowing laypeople to perform all of these tasks when there is absolutely no need is what deserves a 4 page thread. The only distinction between the two is that men can be ordained to the appropriate order at a later date. However, I find the fact that people have no problem with a layperson reading the Epistle or censing at the Great Entrance but get hysterical when they see a little girl carrying a candle a little off balance.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2012, 07:02:40 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?

My faith isn't weak, but I am smart enough to realize that if the Orthodox Church ends up like the Anglican and allows things like female priests, gay marriage and altar girls, then it has admitted it was wrong, if the Church admits it was wrong, then it definitely isn't the true church, and if it isn't the true Church, that true Church doesn't exist, and if the Church doesn't exist, Christ was wrong and if Christ was wrong, he isn't God, if the Orthodox Church isn't the true Church and if Christ isn't God, then God doesn't exist.

It isn't about having a weak faith, but being smart enough to realize the impact such disgusting liberal innovations have. If the true Church ends up implementing the changes, then that shows it isn't the Church and in the end, our faith is in vain and there is no God.

This is why I have faith that this Church will absolutely never allow such heretical innovations, because there is no way the Church can be wrong and there is no way the Church can change these things, because the Church, just like God, is changeless.

Basically, if you allow these changes, then you show that the atheists are right and there is no God.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 07:05:17 PM by 88Devin12 »

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2012, 07:12:56 PM »
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?
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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2012, 07:13:10 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

This is simply incredible.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2012, 07:14:04 PM »
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?
they are both a part of the same, disgusting, "innovative", reformationist, modernist spirit that must be snuffed out.

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2012, 07:33:28 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

This is simply incredible.

Why?
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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2012, 07:41:06 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?

My faith isn't weak, but I am smart enough to realize that if the Orthodox Church ends up like the Anglican and allows things like female priests, gay marriage and altar girls, then it has admitted it was wrong, if the Church admits it was wrong, then it definitely isn't the true church, and if it isn't the true Church, that true Church doesn't exist, and if the Church doesn't exist, Christ was wrong and if Christ was wrong, he isn't God, if the Orthodox Church isn't the true Church and if Christ isn't God, then God doesn't exist.

It isn't about having a weak faith, but being smart enough to realize the impact such disgusting liberal innovations have. If the true Church ends up implementing the changes, then that shows it isn't the Church and in the end, our faith is in vain and there is no God.
IOW, your faith is weak, and your defensiveness shows it.

This is why I have faith that this Church will absolutely never allow such heretical innovations,
But you won't even tell us how allowing girls to serve as altar girls is heretical. For something to be heretical, it has to be teaching a theology other than that which the Church teaches, but you won't identify what theology the practice of altar girls teaches, nor will you tell us what Orthodox theological teachings the practice contradicts.

because there is no way the Church can be wrong and there is no way the Church can change these things, because the Church, just like God, is changeless.
The Church's liturgy has changed over the years. First there was the Liturgy of St. James, then the Liturgy of St. Basil, and later the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. At one time Christians didn't receive Communion on a spoon. At one time we had married bishops and women deacons. At one time penitents confessed their sins publicly for all their local churches to hear.

I'm not advocating that we should ever revive any of these earlier practices, but I do recognize that the Church does change, and on such central things as liturgy, so don't give me this BS that the Church is changeless.

Basically, if you allow these changes, then you show that the atheists are right and there is no God.
I guess there is no God, then, since the Church has changed, and I've shown you how she has.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 07:52:15 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2012, 07:59:52 PM »
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition. Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2012, 08:25:51 PM »
dare question the Church
That's what they said to St. Maximus.
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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2012, 08:26:47 PM »
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #122 on: July 04, 2012, 08:27:22 PM »
Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.
You cannot compare women altar servers and deacons with gay marriage and women priests.

Sheesh, dude.

no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever.
You really think there haven't been altar girls throughout history?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 08:29:13 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #123 on: July 04, 2012, 08:28:53 PM »
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition.
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.
I'm sorry that my refusal to agree with you shows you that I have no faith. I've shown you how the Church has changed over the centuries, and you've even acknowledged the truth in the evidence I cited (though you dismissed it as tradition), yet you still argue that canard that the Church is changeless.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church.
Wow! :o Someone who disagrees with you is now hypodox! Does your judgmentalism know any bounds?

Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.
As I keep saying, I'm not questioning the Church. I'm questioning you, and you keep hiding behind the Church.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #124 on: July 04, 2012, 08:45:16 PM »
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2012, 08:48:54 PM »
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.
I've seen sufficient evidence to believe that the female diaconate may really have been much more similar to the male diaconate than you say it is.

BTW, on the points where I've been questioning Devin, I want Devin to answer for himself, since it's his opinions that demand a cogent defense, and only he can articulate that defense.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 08:52:52 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2012, 08:55:46 PM »
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?

My faith isn't weak, but I am smart enough to realize that if the Orthodox Church ends up like the Anglican and allows things like female priests, gay marriage and altar girls, then it has admitted it was wrong, if the Church admits it was wrong, then it definitely isn't the true church, and if it isn't the true Church, that true Church doesn't exist, and if the Church doesn't exist, Christ was wrong and if Christ was wrong, he isn't God, if the Orthodox Church isn't the true Church and if Christ isn't God, then God doesn't exist.

It isn't about having a weak faith, but being smart enough to realize the impact such disgusting liberal innovations have. If the true Church ends up implementing the changes, then that shows it isn't the Church and in the end, our faith is in vain and there is no God.
IOW, your faith is weak, and your defensiveness shows it.

This is why I have faith that this Church will absolutely never allow such heretical innovations, because there is no way the Church can be wrong and there is no way the Church can change these things, because the Church, just like God, is changeless.
The Church's liturgy has changed over the years. First there was the Liturgy of St. James, then the Liturgy of St. Basil, and later the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. At one time Christians didn't receive Communion on a spoon. At one time we had married bishops and women deacons. I'm not advocating that we should ever revive any of these earlier practices. I do recognize, however, that the Church does change, and on such central things as liturgy. So don't give me this BS that the Church is changeless.

Basically, if you allow these changes, then you show that the atheists are right and there is no God.
I guess there is no God, then, since the Church has changed, and I've shown you how she has.

Not to mention the liturgy of St. Mark, among others.  And it wasn't even just that Christians received Communion on a spoon, but even took it home with them.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2012, 09:14:31 PM »
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition.
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.
I'm sorry that my refusal to agree with you shows you that I have no faith. I've shown you how the Church has changed over the centuries, and you've even acknowledged the truth in the evidence I cited (though you dismissed it as tradition), yet you still argue that canard that the Church is changeless.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church.
Wow! :o Someone who disagrees with you is now hypodox! Does your judgmentalism know any bounds?

Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.
As I keep saying, I'm not questioning the Church. I'm questioning you, and you keep hiding behind the Church.

You mistake male deacons with the female deaconess. If you actually knew the history of the Church you would know that the deaconess had to be a much older woman, about in her 40s, who was unmarried. While they shared some duties that deacons had, they didn't share the Eucharist duties, and probably didn't utter the litanies.

You are also mistaken in believing the deaconess has "fallen out of use" when Orthodox Churches still have them, and the Russian Church apparently still has them. In fact, you can find photographs of deaconess' on the internet, and guess what? They are in monastic garb, they aren't wearing sticharion.

If you read Canon 19 of the First Ecumenical Council, you will also see that the deaconess was regarded as part of the laity, NOT the clergy. Also in that time, I think it is safe to say that in the Byzantine Empire, what is the sticharion was probably something men wore rather than women. Look at the iconography of all deaconess Saints, do they wear sticharion or clerical garments? No...

Their role was in assistance of duties with women, like baptism. They did not serve ANY sacerdotal role.

In fact, they probably wore the maphorion, like the Theotokos in icons, possibly along with the orarion wrapped around her in the manner of a sub-deacon (wrapped around with both ends hanging in front).

Relevant Canons:

Quote
Canon XIX of the First Council of Nicaea:
... ... Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed.  And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.

Quote
Canon XV of Chalcedon:
A woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination.  And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her.

Quote
Canon XI of Laodicia:
Presbytides, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.

The statement by the OCA Synod:
Quote
http://oca.org/news/archived/statement-concerning-liturgical-practices-in-parishes

... In their concern for maintaining the integrity of the Church and its traditions, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, meeting at Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania, October 18-21, 2004, reaffirms the ancient practice of the Orthodox Church that only males are to be admitted to service within the holy altar. Any practice to the contrary in this regard is strictly forbidden. ...

IF a woman is in the sanctuary of the parish, there needs to be good reason (as has been pointed out, like any layperson) and it isn't for "serving" in the role like an altar-girl. As far as I'm aware, the only women allowed back there are the deaconess and from what I've read, its only for communion and (in ancient times) to get the chalice to distribute to the women.

In short, no altar girls, only the deaconess. Yet even with the deaconess, there isn't any reason for them to be behind in the sanctuary unless there is a good reason or if it is part of their duty as a deaconess.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2012, 09:17:54 PM »
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.
I've seen sufficient evidence to believe that the female diaconate may really have been much more similar to the male diaconate than you say it is.

BTW, on the points where I've been questioning Devin, I want Devin to answer for himself, since it's his opinions that demand a cogent defense, and only he can articulate that defense.

How am I the one who has to answer to you? I'm remaining within the Orthodox tradition. Those who want altar girls are the ones who have to answer why they should be allowed, not me.

As for unchangeable tradition, the Liturgy hasn't changed, we haven't ever eliminated the Eucharist nor the reading of the Epistle nor the basic core of the liturgy. The wording has changed a little in various points and it has been greatly expanded, but it hasn't changed.

Like Orthodox11 said, the male Priesthood is unchangeable and the deaconess' role is unchangeable. There is no possibility for altar girls because there is no such role. The reason altar boys are allowed is because we assume that they are in training to eventually become readers or subdeacons. Altar Girls have no role to train for by standing up at the altar and serving in the roles of deacons and readers.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2012, 09:21:18 PM »
they didn't share the Eucharist duties

One of their duties would be to distribute the Eucharist to women unable to attend the liturgy, those confined to hospitals, prison or their homes. So the Eucharist played a big part in the ministry of deaconesses. Those 'Eucharist duties' did not occur as part of the divine Liturgy, however.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2012, 09:32:17 PM »
they didn't share the Eucharist duties

One of their duties would be to distribute the Eucharist to women unable to attend the liturgy, those confined to hospitals, prison or their homes. So the Eucharist played a big part in the ministry of deaconesses. Those 'Eucharist duties' did not occur as part of the divine Liturgy, however.

One of the sources I read said that they did distribute it to the women during Liturgy and received communion at the same time as the Deacons behind at the altar.

We have to remember that in those days, many parishes had balconies and that is where the women stood. It probably was more effective to have a deaconess take the Eucharist to a place where those women could receive it in the church without having to come down from the balconies all the way up to the front. Of course, they may have received at the front as well, but from what I read, the deaconess did handle the chalice in giving it to the women during Liturgy, but that seems to be her only "Liturgical" role.

One specific rite I read about talked about how during their tonsuring, they receive communion and took the chalice to the altar. However, of course, who knows if that was an orthodox service.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 09:34:06 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #131 on: July 04, 2012, 10:11:39 PM »
You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

Are you listening to yourself say these words as you type them?  Look at the bolded text, you are questioning the Church with this tirade.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #132 on: July 04, 2012, 10:13:47 PM »
You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

Are you listening to yourself say these words as you type them?  Look at the bolded text, you are questioning the Church with this tirade.

I'm not questioning the Church because the role of altar girls hasn't ever been allowed. Altar boys are considered in training for the roles of readers, subdeacons and deacons, roles which women cannot fulfill.

I have the Church on my side here, you should know that based on our Tradition and our canons.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #133 on: July 04, 2012, 10:19:50 PM »
You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

Are you listening to yourself say these words as you type them?  Look at the bolded text, you are questioning the Church with this tirade.

I'm not questioning the Church because the role of altar girls hasn't ever been allowed.

How do you know that?  There is a point of contact at the church in Jacksonville, FL where you are free to call and ask rational questions about their ministry.  I doubt that this program can exist without the Metropolitan of Atlanta's blessing because he has to bless the young girls in order for them to enter the sanctuary.

Altar boys are considered in training for the roles of readers, subdeacons and deacons, roles which women cannot fulfill.

So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

I have the Church on my side here, you should know that based on our Tradition and our canons.

Who's "our"? ???
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 10:28:15 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
« Reply #134 on: July 04, 2012, 10:26:11 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Men silly ;)

By the way, why should women necessarily be involved with cleaning in the first place? At our parish, our custodian is also a man, his name is Gus and he is very good to us ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I clean ours..More or less
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm