Author Topic: St. Louis de Montfort  (Read 2745 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2012, 10:10:24 PM »
For those who have yet to figure it out, the reference to the Mother of God as judge holds ONLY with reference to her cooperation with her Son and it is reserved entirely for her role as mediator.  But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.  The same holds true for those icons that have so scandalized LBK.

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Offline LBK

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2012, 10:10:56 PM »
Quote
You might be able to make this Jell-o stick if the Theotokos were seated alone in the offending icons, as she is depicted without Jesus in Joy of All Who Sorrow, but the bodiless powers are not there in that offending image for the Virgin Mother, I can assure you.
 

Ah, the standard EM tactic: when you know you've lost the argument, you throw in the red herrings.  ::)
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Offline LBK

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2012, 10:14:28 PM »
Quote
But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.

Liturgically and hymnographically, and therefore doctrinally, the only Seer of Hearts is Christ. To say the same for the Mother of God is merely speculation, just as the question of whether she sinned is speculative, whereas Christ is unquestionably the Only Sinless One. We simply cannot know.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2012, 10:15:57 PM »
Quote
You might be able to make this Jell-o stick if the Theotokos were seated alone in the offending icons, as she is depicted without Jesus in Joy of All Who Sorrow, but the bodiless powers are not there in that offending image for the Virgin Mother, I can assure you.
 

Ah, the standard EM tactic: when you know you've lost the argument, you throw in the red herrings.  ::)

Hardly.  I've sent the images around to my usual band of anonymous Orthodox experts and they say you are stretching too far in your estimations here.  The powers and principalities are in that icon for the Christ, not his mother.  I will take the word of the Men in Black...first.... ;)

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Offline LBK

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2012, 10:44:57 PM »
Quote
my usual band of anonymous Orthodox experts

That says it all. No names, no pack drill. EM obfuscation at its finest when she's on the losing side.  ::)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2012, 10:54:17 PM »
For those who have yet to figure it out, the reference to the Mother of God as judge holds ONLY with reference to her cooperation with her Son and it is reserved entirely for her role as mediator.  But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.  The same holds true for those icons that have so scandalized LBK.

Mary
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Offline Paisius

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2012, 10:58:19 PM »



Offline LBK

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2012, 04:54:37 AM »




Be that more folks did so. Doing so isn't hyperdox, any more than is ensuring that the hymns and prayers of the church aren't badly translated or fooled around with. Vigilance is a virtue. :angel:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 04:55:11 AM by LBK »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2012, 08:07:49 AM »
I won't comment on the whole back-and-forth, but I'd like to address this post:

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

I don't understand why, upon seeing a depiction of someone seated on a throne, you'd assume it is God's throne specifically.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2012, 08:11:57 AM »
I won't comment on the whole back-and-forth, but I'd like to address this post:

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

I don't understand why, upon seeing a depiction of someone seated on a throne, you'd assume it is God's throne specifically.
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2012, 08:18:35 AM »
I won't comment on the whole back-and-forth, but I'd like to address this post:

Where in the hymnographic deposit of the Orthodox church do we find references to the Virgin sitting on the Throne of God in judgement, equal to God, surrounded by the bodiless powers? I can assure you, nowhere.

I don't understand why, upon seeing a depiction of someone seated on a throne, you'd assume it is God's throne specifically.

It is God's throne because of the presence of the bodiless creatures surrounding it, as described in the book of Revelation. Please pay more attention to what I write, I did say as much in previous posts.  ;)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2012, 08:41:30 AM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.
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Offline LBK

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2012, 09:13:51 AM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  :police:
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Offline Paisius

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2012, 10:21:46 AM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  :police:


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 10:22:29 AM by Paisius »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2012, 01:57:49 PM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  :police:


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2012, 02:38:14 PM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  :police:


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

But then shouldn't he be depicted sitting on her?
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2012, 03:21:58 PM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  :police:


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

But then shouldn't he be depicted sitting on her?

He is, isn't He?:



Are we still talking about the icons EM posted???
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2012, 04:21:23 PM »
"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ 8)

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... ;)

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...

Precisely.  Lots of mentions of Christ and Christ's judgment.  Mentioning the Theotokos as a powerful intercessor.  The Akathist... some obvious problems there (of course the Theotokos is not the only intercessor, but regardless, she's still mentioned as an intercessor, not a judge), but nothing that approaches the stuff in the OP quote.

But alas, all of those arguing against St. Louis de Montfort's teachings being Orthodox (which I figured was pretty apparent) are fighting a losing battle, as ElijahMariah has proclaimed that they, in fact, are.

ElijahMariah, if you value the teachings of St. Louis de Monfort, that's fine and certainly understandable.  Defending them makes sense, and coming from your religious affiliation, admirable.  But please spare us your claims of being more Orthodox than the Orthodox on here, or knowing our Liturgy and teachings better.  Highlighted by your weak attempt of throwing out the "Theotokos, save us" line you've done little to advance your argument, and stand little chance of doing so. 

His comments appear strikingly different from Orthodox teachings, and until you can indicate that they are compatible, from an authentically Orthodox perspective rather than your own, you're going to lose this one.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2012, 04:38:03 PM »
"I sing thy grace, O Sovereign Lady, and pray to thee to grace my mind. Teach me to step right in the way of Christ's commandments. Strengthen me to keep awake in song and dispel the dream of despondency. Release me, bound with bonds of sin, O bride of God, by thy prayers. Guard me by night and also by day, and drive away my foes who defeat me. O Bearer of God, the Giver of Life, enliven me who am deadened by passions. O bearer of the unfailing Light, enlighten my blinded soul. O Marvellous Palace of the Master, make me a house of the Divine Spirit. O Mother of the Healer, heal the perennial passions of my soul. Guide me to the path of repentance, for I am tossed in the storm of life. Deliver me from eternal fire, from wicked war and from hell. Expose me guilty as I am of many sins. Renew me, grown old from senseless sins, O most Immaculate One. Present me untouched by all torments, and pray for me to the Lord of all. Grant me to receive the joys of Heaven with all the Saints. O most holy Virgin, hear the voice of thy unprofitable servant. Grant me torrents of tears, O most Pure One, to cleanse my soul from impurity. I offer the groans of my heart to Thee unceasingly. Strive for me, O Sovereign Lady. Accept my service of supplication and offer it to compassionate God. O thou who art above the Angels, raise me above this world's confusion. O Light-bearing heavenly Tabernacle, direct the grace of the Spirit in me. I raise my hands and lips in thy praise, defiled as they are by impurity, O All-Immaculate One. Deliver me from soul-corrupting evils, and fervently intercede to Christ to Whom is due honour with adoration, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen." - Jordanville Prayer Book


"O Theotokos, our most gracious Queen, our hope, haven for orphans and intercessor for strangers, joy of those who sorrow, protection of the oppressed!  Thou seest our misfortune, thou seest our sorrow.  Help us, for we are weak; guide us, for we are gone astray; feed us, for we are strangers.  Thou knowest our offense: resolve it as thou wilt, for we have none other help than thee, none other intercessor, nor gracious comforter save thee, O Mother of God, to preserve and protect us unto the ages of ages. Amen." - Akathist sung before the Kursk-Root Icon.



I'm just saying........ 8)

Good sayings indeed!...

French peasants liked De Montfort.  This French/American peasant likes it all... ;)

And very, very different from de Montfort's turning the Theotokos into a slavemaster and judge.

Just saying...

Precisely.  Lots of mentions of Christ and Christ's judgment.  Mentioning the Theotokos as a powerful intercessor.  The Akathist... some obvious problems there (of course the Theotokos is not the only intercessor, but regardless, she's still mentioned as an intercessor, not a judge), but nothing that approaches the stuff in the OP quote.

But alas, all of those arguing against St. Louis de Montfort's teachings being Orthodox (which I figured was pretty apparent) are fighting a losing battle, as ElijahMariah has proclaimed that they, in fact, are.

ElijahMariah, if you value the teachings of St. Louis de Monfort, that's fine and certainly understandable.  Defending them makes sense, and coming from your religious affiliation, admirable.  But please spare us your claims of being more Orthodox than the Orthodox on here, or knowing our Liturgy and teachings better.  Highlighted by your weak attempt of throwing out the "Theotokos, save us" line you've done little to advance your argument, and stand little chance of doing so. 

His comments appear strikingly different from Orthodox teachings, and until you can indicate that they are compatible, from an authentically Orthodox perspective rather than your own, you're going to lose this one.

Well talk about a straw dog....

I don't think St. Louis's writings are Orthodox at all.  They come from his own tradition.  He is a man of his own times and place and therefore, so are his words and expressions.

My comments were meant to indicate that they should cause no raised eyebrows among the Orthodox who ask the Theotokos to save them.

If you can get that far along with me without putting MORE thoughts in my head and words in my mouth, maybe we can continue this conversation.

It is NOT about winning and losing.  It is about faith and understanding and acceptance rather than K-Jerk responses.

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2012, 04:42:30 PM »
You miss this?
Only one of these examples shows the Mother of God with seraphim surrounding her, and with cherubim at her feet. This imagery is specific to God Himself, and is derived from the descriptions in Revelation of the Throne of God. The other icons are perfectly proper, as they simply show the Mother of God sitting on a throne

So noted. But it's still something of a stretch.

Your reasons and evidence from Orthodox tradition?  :police:


I think you are reading more into the icon than is there. She is certainly referred to as "Queen" in our hymnography. She herself is referred to as being made into God's "throne." In the case of this icon, for me at least, the symbolism is perfectly clear and appropriate.

Exactly!  Again the powers and principalities are not there for her but are there for her Son and it is as you say: He is seated upon her as a upon a throne.

But then shouldn't he be depicted sitting on her?

He is, isn't He?:



Are we still talking about the icons EM posted???

I'm currently on a phone that doesn't render images too well. If he actually sits on her, them the analogy holds, as strange as an icon of Christ in Glory sitting on the Theotokos might be.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2012, 03:55:25 PM »
Quote
But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.

Liturgically and hymnographically, and therefore doctrinally, the only Seer of Hearts is Christ. To say the same for the Mother of God is merely speculation, just as the question of whether she sinned is speculative, whereas Christ is unquestionably the Only Sinless One. We simply cannot know.

I am not so sure that your "agnosticism" is fully justified here.

From the Gospel of Luke and the Prophesy of Symeon:

"Behold, this child is set for the falling and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sin which shall be spoken against. Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

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Re: St. Louis de Montfort
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2012, 05:06:57 PM »
Quote
But practically speaking she'd be a darn poor mediator if she could not discern our hearts.

Liturgically and hymnographically, and therefore doctrinally, the only Seer of Hearts is Christ. To say the same for the Mother of God is merely speculation, just as the question of whether she sinned is speculative, whereas Christ is unquestionably the Only Sinless One. We simply cannot know.

I am not so sure that your "agnosticism" is fully justified here.

From the Gospel of Luke and the Prophesy of Symeon:

"Behold, this child is set for the falling and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sin which shall be spoken against. Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
Hey Elijahmaria,

You still haven't provided me with all those "Pauline" references: you know, where St. Paul evidently exhorts us to become "slaves" of the Theotokos and to entrust the fate of our souls to the judgement of the Theotokos. Since you claim that De Monfort is "Pauline", I'm sure you won't mind butressing your assertion with a modicum of evidence from Scripture.

Take you time. Really. No rush.