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Author Topic: Lord/YHWH?  (Read 2447 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 01, 2012, 10:12:15 PM »

We all know how much we say "lord" in prayer, in scripture reading, etc.

As far as my understanding goes, many of the ancient scriptures actually used the name YHWH.  (I'm not positive if all did or not).
Does anybody know the history on using the word "Lord" came into practice or where it derived from?
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 10:34:38 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 10:51:03 PM »

I believe the Septuagint, which is the authoritative Orthodox Christian Old Testament IIRC, translates YHWH as "kurios," that is, "Lord."
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 12:11:26 AM »

To add on to what Tallitot said, the Shema is always said with Adonai and not some rendering of YHWH.
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 12:24:52 AM »

To add on to what Tallitot said, the Shema is always said with Adonai and not some rendering of YHWH.
"Adonai" is used for prayer and liturgical purposes; in teaching or conversation the title "HaShem" is used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaShem#HaShem
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 02:12:17 AM »

I believe the Septuagint, which is the authoritative Orthodox Christian Old Testament IIRC, translates YHWH as "kurios," that is, "Lord."

This is my understanding as well. The practice of saying "Adonai" liturgically instead of YHWH is very ancient, and the translators of the LXX simply wrote in "Kyrios" to replace it. I did a quick glance at a few random passages in the OT, and in each one of them that is the case.

I'm not saying that's across the board. I admit I didn't check every single verse in which the Tetragrammaton appears...but in the half dozen I did pull up, that's what was done.
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 06:12:29 AM »

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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 06:26:55 AM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

So if you had a new temple and new clergy even they couldn't pronounce it?
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 09:01:59 AM »

The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible uses "Yahweh" insted of LORD. I heard, however, that the Catholic Church recently ordered that the sacred Name should no longer be used for public reading in churches, apparently so as not to needlessly offend Jews.
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 10:13:17 AM »

In this podcast, Fr Thomas Hopko gives a detailed explanation. There is a transcript of the podcast for those who prefer to read rather than listen.
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 10:15:27 AM »

The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible uses "Yahweh" insted of LORD. I heard, however, that the Catholic Church recently ordered that the sacred Name should no longer be used for public reading in churches, apparently so as not to needlessly offend Jews.
So I guess Jews are now ok with the whole Jesus thing now?

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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 10:59:52 AM »

The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible uses "Yahweh" insted of LORD. I heard, however, that the Catholic Church recently ordered that the sacred Name should no longer be used for public reading in churches, apparently so as not to needlessly offend Jews.

IIRC it was made in order to switch to the original RC practice of not pronouncing the Name. It had nothing to do with the Jews.
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 11:48:20 AM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 11:51:26 AM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
I know there's a canon for just about everything - forbidding a lot, requiring a lot - do you have a specific reference for this one?
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 12:57:06 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
I know there's a canon for just about everything - forbidding a lot, requiring a lot - do you have a specific reference for this one?

Its what my catechism instructor told us in class when I became orthodox. I never researched where in the canons...
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 02:18:35 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If this is true, I'm happily surprised.
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2012, 07:49:04 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If this is true, I'm happily surprised.

I guess I don't understand why you'd be happy about not praying in YHWH's name via canon law.
Do you worship YHWH?
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2012, 07:52:46 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If this is true, I'm happily surprised.

I guess I don't understand why you'd be happy about not praying in YHWH's name via canon law.
Do you worship YHWH?


The ancient Jews worshipped the LORD, but they did not use His most personal name, except IIRC under certain very limited circumstances in a prescribed, holy manner at a prescribed, holy place and time. Maybe the Name is so sacred it ought not to just be thrown about?
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2012, 08:50:23 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

as far as I can recall this is what I have been taught as well, at one time the Jehova Witnesses were making a lot of noise in Ethiopia about the Proper Name of God not being used by the Orthodox Church , the church was in return became engaged in replying extensively as to why we use the name The Lord of All Nations instead, /Egziabher/ instead and How sacred the Name is, how it was only said once a year by the High priest during which time people prostrate themselves and how it was read  at other times as Adonai in reverence as well as how the scribes would wash their hands before each time writing that Name as is. Thus it is in keeping that tradition as well, we will not use that Name as is and that even those Jehova witnesses  themselves are not pronouncing it right in the first place, as the characters are all consonant, and that it will do them good to stop messing with such things and keep  the Second Commandment. 

Peace

Edit : I meant ,The Second Commandment Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2012, 08:55:58 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

as far as I can recall this is what I have been taught as well, at one time the Jehova Witnesses were making a lot of noise in Ethiopia about the Proper Name of God not being used by the Orthodox Church , the church was in return became engaged in replying extensively as to why we use the name The Lord of All Nations instead, /Egziabher/ instead and How sacred the Name is, how it was only said once a year by the High priest during which time people prostrate themselves and how it was read  at other times as Adonai in reverence as well as how the scribes would wash their hands before each time writing that Name as is. Thus it is in keeping that tradition as well, we will not use that Name as is and that even those Jehova witnesses  themselves are not pronouncing it right in the first place, as the characters are all consonant, and that it will do them good to stop messing with such things and keep  the First Commandment. 

Peace

IIRC the Ethiopian church maintains many traditions similiar to Judaism.
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2012, 09:04:33 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If anyone has confirmation on this, it would be greatly appreciated. I wasn't aware of this...it's interesting.
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2012, 09:05:52 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

as far as I can recall this is what I have been taught as well, at one time the Jehova Witnesses were making a lot of noise in Ethiopia about the Proper Name of God not being used by the Orthodox Church , the church was in return became engaged in replying extensively as to why we use the name The Lord of All Nations instead, /Egziabher/ instead and How sacred the Name is, how it was only said once a year by the High priest during which time people prostrate themselves and how it was read  at other times as Adonai in reverence as well as how the scribes would wash their hands before each time writing that Name as is. Thus it is in keeping that tradition as well, we will not use that Name as is and that even those Jehova witnesses  themselves are not pronouncing it right in the first place, as the characters are all consonant, and that it will do them good to stop messing with such things and keep  the Second Commandment. 

Peace

IIRC the Ethiopian church maintains many traditions similiar to Judaism.

yes we do:) and I edited the qoute as well, please do the same if you are around .  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2012, 09:13:34 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If anyone has confirmation on this, it would be greatly appreciated. I wasn't aware of this...it's interesting.

Agreed!  I very much enjoy learning this sort of stuff. 
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2012, 09:23:45 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

as far as I can recall this is what I have been taught as well, at one time the Jehova Witnesses were making a lot of noise in Ethiopia about the Proper Name of God not being used by the Orthodox Church , the church was in return became engaged in replying extensively as to why we use the name The Lord of All Nations instead, /Egziabher/ instead and How sacred the Name is, how it was only said once a year by the High priest during which time people prostrate themselves and how it was read  at other times as Adonai in reverence as well as how the scribes would wash their hands before each time writing that Name as is. Thus it is in keeping that tradition as well, we will not use that Name as is and that even those Jehova witnesses  themselves are not pronouncing it right in the first place, as the characters are all consonant, and that it will do them good to stop messing with such things and keep  the Second Commandment. 

Peace

IIRC the Ethiopian church maintains many traditions similiar to Judaism.

yes we do:) and I edited the qoute as well, please do the same if you are around .  Grin

"Let us pray to YHWH"
"YHWH have mercy!"

I can see the argument for sure, within worship, his name is held in reverence.

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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2012, 09:32:24 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

The Hebrew word for "Master" is "Adonai" which means "Lord".

God is referenced often as Adonai, which is the same as master.

Master bless!  See I told you guys.  (call no man master) angel  It's in the link, taught from Judaism.  But anyway...

Would the Jews address YHWH ever, even in the deepest heart felt prayer?


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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2012, 10:09:07 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

The Hebrew word for "Master" is "Adonai" which means "Lord".

God is referenced often as Adonai, which is the same as master.

Master bless!  See I told you guys.  (call no man master) angel  It's in the link, taught from Judaism.  But anyway...

Would the Jews address YHWH ever, even in the deepest heart felt prayer?
No, because
1. The Name of G-d was only used on the Day of Atonement, by the High Priest in the Holy of Holies.
2. You can't pronounce YHWH. If I told you my name was Ptmd, how would you pronounce it? The theory that it was pronounced 'yahweh" or "yahvew" is just that...theory. And "jehovah" is out of the question-there is no "J" in Hebrew.
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2012, 10:28:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

as far as I can recall this is what I have been taught as well, at one time the Jehova Witnesses were making a lot of noise in Ethiopia about the Proper Name of God not being used by the Orthodox Church , the church was in return became engaged in replying extensively as to why we use the name The Lord of All Nations instead, /Egziabher/ instead and How sacred the Name is, how it was only said once a year by the High priest during which time people prostrate themselves and how it was read  at other times as Adonai in reverence as well as how the scribes would wash their hands before each time writing that Name as is. Thus it is in keeping that tradition as well, we will not use that Name as is and that even those Jehova witnesses  themselves are not pronouncing it right in the first place, as the characters are all consonant, and that it will do them good to stop messing with such things and keep  the Second Commandment. 

Peace

Edit : I meant ,The Second Commandment Smiley
Delightful! So in the Ge'ez Bible I am curious what the translation is for Exodus 3:14 where the Sacred Name is first introduced (at least according to the less-than reliable Jewish translations) which in the Septuagint is transliterated from the Hebrew Ehyah Asher Ehyah (sorry Wink ) into the Greek Ego eimi Ho on..  Is it this in Ethiopic አነ ፡ ውእቱ ፡ ዘሀሎ  and in the Amharic ያለና የሚኖር (አዝናለሁ )?

Sis Hiwot, could you by chance explain the etymology of the Ethiopian name of God in the Church Igziabeher? I've gathered it is translated as "Lord of the Earth" and traces back at least as far back as the coinage and engravings from the time of Emperor Ezana who used the expression on his later coins which reflected Aksum's official conversion to sacramental Christianity.  However, I also understand that the pre-Christian triune pantheon of the Aksumites was related to the popular Greco-Roman big three including the Sea-GodBeher.  Are these etymologically related or is it a coincidence?  I've been curious about this for several years Smiley

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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2012, 01:16:16 AM »


the Hebrew Name is what you need to be careful about  in uttering Smiley  but the Name of God is always Holy, and must never be used in Vain in Whatever language or form.in the conversation with Mossess this is used ' ze halo wa yehelu' in Ge'ez, and in amharic,' yale ena yeminor' the translation in Ethiopic says,' He that Is and that continues to be  ' , and also it is understood as saying' He who lives as He lives'. Other than the time where the Lord utters It,  the Name is never used even in that translated way in its full form in the rest of the scriptures instead we use the Name Egziabher Egzi= Lord a- of Bher= Nations  to mean God in all those other places that have to do with the Name. the Ethiopic term Egziabher has nothing to do with any pantheon, rather it was in the time of Ezana that the sabian was replaced by  Ge'iz and in the translation of the Hebrew Name to the Ge'ez they kept the existing tradition of reverence regarding the Name and used the Name Lord of All Nations /Egziabher/ to refer to God.

beher means a One united group of people= Nations in this case it refers to All Nations in thier united form, in thier separate form the term is Beherat, the united form of the separate beherat is called hibre biherat. there is another term for people = Hizb Nations=Ahizab Ahzab also refers to heathens so does Aramawi.  Anyway we have instances of what seems like redandancy like, Geta Egziabher ' Lord God' which if translated literaly says "the LORD , LORD of all Nations" however no one thinks of this as a redundancy as Egziabher is understood as His Name.

ocean / wuqiyanos, Bahir /is not the same word nor are they related.

 thats all I know  Smiley you might want to dig for other additional sources of info on this.

Peace.
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2012, 04:38:09 PM »


the Hebrew Name is what you need to be careful about  in uttering Smiley  but the Name of God is always Holy, and must never be used in Vain in Whatever language or form.in the conversation with Mossess this is used ' ze halo wa yehelu' in Ge'ez, and in amharic,' yale ena yeminor' the translation in Ethiopic says,' He that Is and that continues to be  ' , and also it is understood as saying' He who lives as He lives'. Other than the time where the Lord utters It,  the Name is never used even in that translated way in its full form in the rest of the scriptures instead we use the Name Egziabher Egzi= Lord a- of Bher= Nations  to mean God in all those other places that have to do with the Name. the Ethiopic term Egziabher has nothing to do with any pantheon, rather it was in the time of Ezana that the sabian was replaced by  Ge'iz and in the translation of the Hebrew Name to the Ge'ez they kept the existing tradition of reverence regarding the Name and used the Name Lord of All Nations /Egziabher/ to refer to God.

beher means a One united group of people= Nations in this case it refers to All Nations in thier united form, in thier separate form the term is Beherat, the united form of the separate beherat is called hibre biherat. there is another term for people = Hizb Nations=Ahizab Ahzab also refers to heathens so does Aramawi.  Anyway we have instances of what seems like redandancy like, Geta Egziabher ' Lord God' which if translated literaly says "the LORD , LORD of all Nations" however no one thinks of this as a redundancy as Egziabher is understood as His Name.


 thats all I know  Smiley you might want to dig for other additional sources of info on this.

Peace.

Thank you Smiley

I was being silly, not realizing how obviously etymologically connected Bahr the Sea God was to the modern Amharic ባሕር  because duh, I had never read the name for Bahr in the fidel, only in English translations. Tongue However, even in እግዚአብሔር at a glance these appear that they may be related in spelling.  I need to talk to an Ethiopic linguist and see what the etymology and evolution over time suggests.  The Aksumite Emperors patronized the Sea-God Bahr dedicating many royal temples, chapels, coins, and inscriptions praising Bahr for their military and political successes (though the War-God Mahrem was the chief deity and the Emperors coinage titled them "Son of Mahrem"). When Emperor Ezana converted, his later period coins and inscriptions reflect this, with dedications to Bahr being replaced with the Christian God Igziabeher. My point was this, it seems that if baher and Behr are related, then it seems that perhaps the pun was obvious and that Emperor Ezana was intentionally discrediting his previous patronage of Bahar/Sea-God by worshipping Iziabeher, or the Lord of Behr.  I am still curious..

It would seem weird that even if just a coincidence, that nobody in Aksum would have made this same connection, considering Bahr was an ancient pagan deity and quite popular as well.  Even if it is a coincidence, it still can work out to have been a pun, and many scholars have asserted before that the etymology of Iziabeher was initially a bit loosely concocted to try to devise Ge'ez translations to reflect the theology of the  Christian and Jewish Scriptures written in the Roman era lingua francaGreek  which were available in the Greek speaking courts and libraries in Aksum, Yeha, and Adulis. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2012, 06:39:58 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If this is true, I'm happily surprised.

I guess I don't understand why you'd be happy about not praying in YHWH's name via canon law.
Do you worship YHWH?


The ancient Jews worshipped the LORD, but they did not use His most personal name, except IIRC under certain very limited circumstances in a prescribed, holy manner at a prescribed, holy place and time. Maybe the Name is so sacred it ought not to just be thrown about?

Okay, but I just want to ask if Orthodox Christians directly worship YHWH.
I consider myself Eastern Orthodox, and I worship YHWH, who is the trinity (and part of).  Is it difficult for EO Christians to say they worship YHWH?   Do the Jews today say "The Lord" ?
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2012, 07:15:45 PM »

Okay, but I just want to ask if Orthodox Christians directly worship YHWH.
I consider myself Eastern Orthodox, and I worship YHWH, who is the trinity (and part of).  Is it difficult for EO Christians to say they worship YHWH?   Do the Jews today say "The Lord" ?

Orthodox Christians worship יהוה, but address Him with the Name He revealed to us at His incarnation - Jesus Christ - which is the divine Name by which we call ourselves after baptism.

Jews, as noted above, will say 'Adonai' when praying, but 'HaShem' (The Name) in other conversation.
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2012, 07:19:18 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If this is true, I'm happily surprised.

I guess I don't understand why you'd be happy about not praying in YHWH's name via canon law.
Do you worship YHWH?


The ancient Jews worshipped the LORD, but they did not use His most personal name, except IIRC under certain very limited circumstances in a prescribed, holy manner at a prescribed, holy place and time. Maybe the Name is so sacred it ought not to just be thrown about?

Okay, but I just want to ask if Orthodox Christians directly worship YHWH.
I consider myself Eastern Orthodox, and I worship YHWH, who is the trinity (and part of).  Is it difficult for EO Christians to say they worship YHWH?   Do the Jews today say "The Lord" ?
see this  post with it's accompaning link http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45595.msg771160.html#msg771160
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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2012, 07:41:55 PM »

The canons forbid us from using the name YHWH.
If this is true, I'm happily surprised.

I guess I don't understand why you'd be happy about not praying in YHWH's name via canon law.
Do you worship YHWH?

I do. I just think it's nice that that divine name is a special thing that is not used all the time. Especially because if people were to pronounce it, they would end up saying something that was not the divine name. Because we don't know how to pronounce it.

Okay, but I just want to ask if Orthodox Christians directly worship YHWH.
yes, that's why Christ's Halo says it in Greek.
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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 07:45:30 PM »

'Adonai" is Hebrew for 'master' or 'lord' and is often used by hebrew speakers to adress G-d. YHWH (or actually the hebrew characers) are unpronounceable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

The Hebrew word for "Master" is "Adonai" which means "Lord".

God is referenced often as Adonai, which is the same as master.

Master bless!  See I told you guys.  (call no man master)

Actually, the word that Jesus used for 'Master' is "kathegetes" which means master as in "instructor/professor/teacher". In fact, the word "doctor" is the modern usage.



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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 07:52:38 PM »

Also as an interesting side note, St. Basil the Great uses several Hebrew names of God in the long exorcism prayer attributed to him:

"I expel you, spirit of uncleanness, who revolted against Adonai, Elohim, the omnipotent God of Sabaoth and the army of His angels."

I'm assuming this is a latin translation and it's pantokrator/almighty instead of omnipotent in the Greek.
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 08:25:18 PM »

2. You can't pronounce YHWH. If I told you my name was Ptmd, how would you pronounce it?

You've never heard of Caucasian languages, I take it. Smiley They're famous for their ridiculous consonant clusters, as in Georgian გვფრცქვნი gvprckvni ("You peel us") and მწვრთნელი mc'vrtneli ("trainer")
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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 08:28:05 PM »


the Hebrew Name is what you need to be careful about  in uttering Smiley  but the Name of God is always Holy, and must never be used in Vain in Whatever language or form.in the conversation with Mosses this is used ' ze halo wa yehelu' in Ge'ez, and in amharic,' yale ena yeminor' the translation in Ethiopic says,' He that Is and that continues to be  ' , and also it is understood as saying' He who lives as He lives'. Other than the time where the Lord utters It,  the Name is never used even in that translated way in its full form in the rest of the scriptures instead we use the Name Egziabher Egzi= Lord a- of Bher= Nations  to mean God in all those other places that have to do with the Name. the Ethiopic term Egziabher has nothing to do with any pantheon, rather it was in the time of Ezana that the sabian was replaced by  Ge'iz and in the translation of the Hebrew Name to the Ge'ez they kept the existing tradition of reverence regarding the Name and used the Name Lord of All Nations /Egziabher/ to refer to God.

beher means a One united group of people= Nations in this case it refers to All Nations in thier united form, in thier separate form the term is Beherat, the united form of the separate beherat is called hibre biherat. there is another term for people = Hizb Nations=Ahizab Ahzab also refers to heathens so does Aramawi.  Anyway we have instances of what seems like redandancy like, Geta Egziabher ' Lord God' which if translated literaly says "the LORD , LORD of all Nations" however no one thinks of this as a redundancy as Egziabher is understood as His Name.


 thats all I know  Smiley you might want to dig for other additional sources of info on this.

Peace.

Thank you Smiley

I was being silly, not realizing how obviously etymologically connected Bahr the Sea God was to the modern Amharic ባሕር  because duh, I had never read the name for Bahr in the fidel, only in English translations. Tongue However, even in እግዚአብሔር at a glance these appear that they may be related in spelling.  I need to talk to an Ethiopic linguist and see what the etymology and evolution over time suggests.  The Aksumite Emperors patronized the Sea-God Bahr dedicating many royal temples, chapels, coins, and inscriptions praising Bahr for their military and political successes (though the War-God Mahrem was the chief deity and the Emperors coinage titled them "Son of Mahrem"). When Emperor Ezana converted, his later period coins and inscriptions reflect this, with dedications to Bahr being replaced with the Christian God Igziabeher. My point was this, it seems that if baher and Behr are related, then it seems that perhaps the pun was obvious and that Emperor Ezana was intentionally discrediting his previous patronage of Bahar/Sea-God by worshipping Iziabeher, or the Lord of Behr.  I am still curious..

It would seem weird that even if just a coincidence, that nobody in Aksum would have made this same connection, considering Bahr was an ancient pagan deity and quite popular as well.  Even if it is a coincidence, it still can work out to have been a pun, and many scholars have asserted before that the etymology of Iziabeher was initially a bit loosely concocted to try to devise Ge'ez translations to reflect the theology of the  Christian and Jewish Scriptures written in the Roman era lingua francaGreek  which were available in the Greek speaking courts and libraries in Aksum, Yeha, and Adulis. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie

habte, I can understand your confusion because on face value it might seem like the two are related to a person who does not know the language well. like you have connected girezet/ circumcision with /megezat or geza/ to buy because it sounds the same to you on another thread. while in actuality the words have no same root nor any connection of meaning. for instance girzet came from the word gezere/ to cut/ while the word geza,/bought or owned/ came from the word Egzi, or Lord. amharic and geez have a lot of words that sound similar but are completely different origin and meaning.

barehe for instance means son. beher is the first born, you see how they are vastly different from beher when it means nations?  the ge'ez language has its own complexity, and not everything is what it might seem on the face value. 'her' for instance means merciful ' keme her Egziabher/ God is Merciful/ ,the name of the pagan deity bahir, is kept as meaning sea even to this day. no one would have confused bahir, with beher though, because it has a complete different root and different meaning in geez language at that time and to this day, and the word existed by itself prior to it being coined in a crafty manner as you seem to suggest, in allegiance to the sea god bahir.this perhaps is a bias of sorts, that is perhaps fueled by your knowledge that Ezana like his contemporaries monarchies of the world had worshiped pagan gods, that is however quite a different subject. your attempt thus to link the two to the usage of the word Egziabher not only is far fetched in its unfounded in the etymology of the word but also might suggest that even the brother Emperor's conversion to Christianity was a joke a pretense , however that was not so, infact in thier allegiance to the New religion they outlawed the practice of paganism and Judaism, that existed in the land, most of the pagans converted as well as those who practiced Judaism, those that refused faced dire consequences , the brothers risked turmoil in thier kingdom when they converted they did not convert to go with the flow of political dynamics of the land. in any case, going back to the terminology issue, Egziabher is a word coined to say that the Lord God is Lord over All Nations. no relation with a pagan deity that was inserted as a pun or otherwise.

not to derail the thread, any further historical or etymological discussion as it relates to Ethiopia let us take it to PM. thank you.
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 11:52:41 PM »

  • The Russian Bible Society's Bible from the Synodal Version.

    Appendix: The Names of God in the Old Testament

    The most often of God's names in the Russian Bible is "Lord".... If to look at the Hebrew/Jewish original of the Old Testament, the predominant majority of times you can see that the Russian "Lord" and Greek "Kyrios" doesn't match "Adonai", but the forbidden-to-pronounce Name YHWH. According to Exodus 6:3 it was first opened by God to Moses in the desert. After the return of the Israelites from Babylonian captivity the Name was allowed to be pronounced aloud only in secret prayer of the firstpriest in Jerusalem's Temple. During Bible reading it was replaced by the word Lord (Hebrew "Adonai"). Greek, slavic, Russian translations (Lord) just follow this ancient Hebrew/Jewish tradition.

    The research of philologists and theologians allow practically without doubt to claim that the Name YHWH was pronounced in Ancient Israel (when it was pronounced) as Yakhvye.

    In Exodus 3:14 God gives Moses the key to understanding the Name- the words, translated into Russian as "Я есмь Сущий" literally can mean "I am I who exists" or "I am I who gives existence".

    The word Sabaoth in Hebrew means Воинство [militariness??]. So Yakhvye Savaof- Lord of Sabaoth- means Yakhvye of [militariness?].

This last part was surprising for me- I thought Lord of Sabaoth meant Lord of the Sabbath or something like that, not God of War or something like militariness.

So in conclusion, I am impressed that the original practice in ancient Israel was to say The Name. This suggests to me it was a more correct practice than to omit it. That's how people knew how to say the name- from hearing it spoken. And the name was being pronounced especially in the era when the Shekinah was still with the Temple, and before the destruction of the First Temple. It seems authentic to say the Name, to me.

And yet we read in the Lord's prayer: Our Father who Art in Heaven, Hallowed Be Thy Name. In other words, even the Lord's prayer doesn't say the name, but regards it as Holy, something that the prayer addressed to God the Father doesn't mention.

It's true that The Lord's Prayer is addressed to God the Father, and it was said by God the Son, so it makes sense that Christ might not say The Name, because the Name applies to Christ too.

But anyway, it's notable that the Lord's prayer doesn't give a first name, but instead simply addresses the Father and says the name is Hallowed.

Finally, someone on this thread wrote that the Canons forbid saying the Name. what Canon is that?

I would like to add that knowing the Name was pronounced by the people for many centuries until the people's return from captivity (c. 530-540 AD), part of me feels a preference for continuing to say the name. Except I know that the Jews stopped the practice centuries before Christ and the Lord's prayer itself doesn't say a Name for God.

Regards.
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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2012, 01:27:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


The research of philologists and theologians allow practically without doubt to claim that the Name YHWH was pronounced in Ancient Israel (when it was pronounced) as Yakhvye.


This last part was surprising for me- I thought Lord of Sabaoth meant Lord of the Sabbath or something like that, not God of War or something like militariness.



It has nothing to do with the Sabbath, Saboat is from the Hebrew and essentially means "ranks, host,brigade" and is the context of heavenly host of Angels.

Quote
6635 tsaba' tsaw-baw' or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from 6633; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship):--appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

They are unrelated, similarly to the corrections Sis Hiwot so nicely posted about the etymology of Bahr and Igziabeher, they sound similar but are not etymologically related in the slightest. Of course, the Hebrews were pun crazy, so it is likely that it still may have been a pun about sabbath and hosts, since the Lord is both Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8) as well as the Lord of the Saboath Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2012, 01:35:05 PM »

I really like to see Tetragrammaton cleansed away by mods from the thread's title. This is an Orthodox board and all of the Orthodox have traditionally agreed that it shouldn't be said even in the services. Why it should be allowed on an internet forum?
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« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2012, 02:20:58 PM »

I have always associated that name with God the Father, so yes, I think you can say we worship Him.
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« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2012, 03:02:57 PM »

I really like to see Tetragrammaton cleansed away by mods from the thread's title. This is an Orthodox board and all of the Orthodox have traditionally agreed that it shouldn't be said even in the services. Why it should be allowed on an internet forum?

I never thought the name of our God would be considered as potty talk.   I'm tired of people treating the name of God like that.   If it is said in reverence and respect, I don't see a crime here.   I have heard Orthodox say it, and not treat it like a curse BTW.
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« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2012, 03:04:10 PM »

I have always associated that name with God the Father, so yes, I think you can say we worship Him.

Me too.  I associate with God the Father, as part of the trinity.  I worship YHWH.  YHWH is my God. Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2012, 05:26:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I really like to see Tetragrammaton cleansed away by mods from the thread's title. This is an Orthodox board and all of the Orthodox have traditionally agreed that it shouldn't be said even in the services. Why it should be allowed on an internet forum?

I never thought the name of our God would be considered as potty talk.   I'm tired of people treating the name of God like that.   If it is said in reverence and respect, I don't see a crime here.   I have heard Orthodox say it, and not treat it like a curse BTW.

You misunderstand.  While we are not trying to be legalistic or Jewish about maintaining the Law, we are indeed trying to respect the Commandments, and which the Sacred Name is thoroughly attached.  If folks feel so inclined to intone the Sacred Name of God it should always be in private, in individual prayer, and preferably unspoken.  It is not that the Sacred Name was entirely removed from religious life, it is just that it was chosen not to be recited casually, and we in Orthodox try to preserve this intention in the spirit of Christ where He said, "Not one iota or tittle of the Law should be perishing."


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2012, 06:32:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I really like to see Tetragrammaton cleansed away by mods from the thread's title. This is an Orthodox board and all of the Orthodox have traditionally agreed that it shouldn't be said even in the services. Why it should be allowed on an internet forum?

I never thought the name of our God would be considered as potty talk.   I'm tired of people treating the name of God like that.   If it is said in reverence and respect, I don't see a crime here.   I have heard Orthodox say it, and not treat it like a curse BTW.

You misunderstand.  While we are not trying to be legalistic or Jewish about maintaining the Law, we are indeed trying to respect the Commandments, and which the Sacred Name is thoroughly attached.  If folks feel so inclined to intone the Sacred Name of God it should always be in private, in individual prayer, and preferably unspoken.  It is not that the Sacred Name was entirely removed from religious life, it is just that it was chosen not to be recited casually, and we in Orthodox try to preserve this intention in the spirit of Christ where He said, "Not one iota or tittle of the Law should be perishing."


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Blessings!

Well it was how it was said, that it should "cleansed" away.    Almost like it is a "dirty word" that must be "washed".  I don't see how you can "cleanse" the name of God, in fact I found the remark Blasphemic.

Quote
"Not one iota or tittle of the Law should be perishing."

habte selassie, this is probably a dump truck of cans of worms.   LOL. 
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