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Question: Was the controversy meaningful in conversion process?
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Author Topic: An inquiry about OO converts  (Read 1423 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alpo
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« on: June 30, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »

I'd like to ask from all of OO converts here whether controversy about Chalcedon and Christology had any part in your conversion process?              

Just curious.            
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mabsoota
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 05:56:05 PM »

yes, i am one of those who needs to know everything, so i read a lot of church history from all perspectives (OO, EO, catholic, protestant, atheist).
i would have no problem joining an EO church in the future (eg. if i go to live in a country which is predominantly EO, which is a real possibility in the future) as i believe the Christology is basically the same in the two groups of orthodox churches. the language used is a bit different, and the terrible split that happened is very sad, but the beliefs are the same.
as for venerating chalcedon era EO saints, i think i could do that, assuming that no single perspective in the history is 100% accurate and accepting that they did many good things and a few bad things (that is those that treated the OO badly).
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dzheremi
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 07:19:37 PM »

I am different than Mabsoota is, I suppose, as Chalcedon did not play a big role in my conversion (a role sure, in that I had to learn about a Christological tradition different than what I previously knew, and accept it as Orthodox), and yet I would not be so comfortable joining an EO church. I was not really presented with a kind of Orthodoxy that I could relate to until I found the Coptic Church, as odd as that is to say. I'm happy as an OO. It makes sense to me in a way that sometimes the EO way of doing things does not (doesn't make the EO bad, of course; I'm just expressing a personal preference here). It would be an adjustment, for sure.
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 07:35:42 PM »

It makes sense to me in a way that sometimes the EO way of doing things does not

Could you elaborate?
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dzheremi
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 07:55:45 PM »

The most obvious and potentially contestable example would probably be that, in general, there seems to be more variation and acceptance of local, historical practice informing the shape of the liturgy in the OO tradition than in the EO. I do not quite know the history of the development of EO liturgical practices or standards or whatever else you would call them, and I would not criticize the EO on this account (after all, the OO churches also developed distinct standards of their own, to no one's particular fault Cheesy), but I believe that we have had threads here on OC.net asking the question of what a native/non-Byzantinized church for the Arabs would look like (I can't find them right now, but I remember Isa responded to one such thread), and of course even EO sources write without prejudice about the process of Byzantinization. So I don't mean this as any kind of slur, but there is more uniformity among the EO on this level. Again, not a bad thing in itself, but I like the OO liturgies as they are, and of course treasure the unique spiritualities that they express. If I wanted to be a Byzantine, I could have done that (in fact, much easier than finding a Coptic church and joining it). I do not want do do that.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 07:56:17 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 01:30:01 PM »

I wanted to become Orthodox and ended up following a path that God seemed to be laying out for me.

I continued as an OO with increasing conviction. Chalcedon was not a major issue, but has become more significant for me.

I converted 18 years ago at the end of a period of 4 or 5 years enquiry and participation.
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 07:24:48 PM »

--Subscribed--
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »

Severian, was Chalcedon important to you when you converted?
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Severian
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 07:45:22 PM »

Severian, was Chalcedon important to you when you converted?
I am no convert, I am a cradle OO from an Egyptian family. What made you think I converted?

Anyway, is Chalcedon important to your inquiry (sp?) into Orthodoxy?

--Peace
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 07:52:44 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 08:01:41 PM »

We are all converts.
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 08:15:45 PM »

^Well, to answer your question, now that I know what transpired at Chalcedon I do agree with the position of the Anti-Chalcedonians who rejected Chalcedon. But, that does not mean I reject EOs as brethren in the faith. And if I were a non-Orthodox converting to Orthodoxy I am not sure if Chalcedon would affect my inquiry into Orthodoxy. Maybe to a slight degree, but I am not sure that would be the turning point.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 08:17:26 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 08:42:23 AM »

The most obvious and potentially contestable example would probably be that, in general, there seems to be more variation and acceptance of local, historical practice informing the shape of the liturgy in the OO tradition than in the EO.

Thanks
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 10:27:48 AM »

i would have no problem joining an EO church in the future (eg. if i go to live in a country which is predominantly EO, which is a real possibility in the future) as i believe the Christology is basically the same in the two groups of orthodox churches.

Perhaps you would have no problem joining an EO church in the future if you could just walk in and receive communion.  But, what if more would be required of you?  Would it be a problem for you if chrismation were required, or baptism?
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »

Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 01:44:18 PM »

Hmm. I appreciate the sentiment, PP, but I hope it doesn't turn this thread into a debate over Chalcedon/the Tome of Leo/Miaphysitism.
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 01:54:57 PM »

Hmm. I appreciate the sentiment, PP, but I hope it doesn't turn this thread into a debate over Chalcedon/the Tome of Leo/Miaphysitism.
I hope not. Just my opinion Smiley

PP
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 04:03:31 AM »

Hmm. I appreciate the sentiment, PP, but I hope it doesn't turn this thread into a debate over Chalcedon/the Tome of Leo/Miaphysitism.

+ 1
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 04:08:24 AM »

Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP

Sadly, members from both sides would vehemently reject a "reunification" of sorts
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 09:09:52 AM »

But a great many wholeheartedly support such efforts.
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 09:23:04 AM »

Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP

Agree with you 100%!
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mabsoota
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 02:39:10 PM »

But a great many wholeheartedly support such efforts.
+1
 Smiley
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Hiwot
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 08:50:47 PM »

But a great many wholeheartedly support such efforts.

Indeed, compelled to do so by the Truth!
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 10:23:25 PM »

Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP

Sadly, members from both sides would vehemently reject a "reunification" of sorts
I'm EO, and I'm 15, and I wouldn't reject that at all. Maybe the next generation  Wink From what I've learned about this topic and the stances of people my age, it isn't a problem for most of us  Tongue
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 11:17:30 PM »

It's weird how generally very theologically traditional Christians (from both sides) can just wholeheartedly embrace a such a liberal ecclesiology on this issue.
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2012, 11:34:35 AM »

Is it weird? or have you not yet gained a proper, historical insight into Orthodox ecclesiology?

It is a fact that many converts (I am a convert myself) develop a highly theoretical ecclesiology that has no relation to what the Church has actually ever done. It is therefore a false ecclesiology, even though it seems very neat.
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »

It's weird how generally very theologically traditional Christians (from both sides) can just wholeheartedly embrace a such a liberal ecclesiology on this issue.

Among those who hold to a more strict ecclesiology, they do not consider the EO and OO to be the same Church now, but who believe we share the same faith and that, because the canons require neither baptism nor chrismation of OO converts, we would become one Church at the moment restoration of Communion is achieved.

In other words, whether one holds to a "liberal" or exclusive ecclesiology, the practical implications now and at the point of reunion remain the same.
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