Poll

Was the controversy meaningful in conversion process?

Yes
1 (16.7%)
No
5 (83.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: An inquiry about OO converts  (Read 1569 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,453
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenist Gay Heresy
An inquiry about OO converts
« on: June 30, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »
I'd like to ask from all of OO converts here whether controversy about Chalcedon and Christology had any part in your conversion process?              

Just curious.            

Offline mabsoota

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,859
  • Kyrie eleison
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox (Coptic)
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 05:56:05 PM »
yes, i am one of those who needs to know everything, so i read a lot of church history from all perspectives (OO, EO, catholic, protestant, atheist).
i would have no problem joining an EO church in the future (eg. if i go to live in a country which is predominantly EO, which is a real possibility in the future) as i believe the Christology is basically the same in the two groups of orthodox churches. the language used is a bit different, and the terrible split that happened is very sad, but the beliefs are the same.
as for venerating chalcedon era EO saints, i think i could do that, assuming that no single perspective in the history is 100% accurate and accepting that they did many good things and a few bad things (that is those that treated the OO badly).

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 07:19:37 PM »
I am different than Mabsoota is, I suppose, as Chalcedon did not play a big role in my conversion (a role sure, in that I had to learn about a Christological tradition different than what I previously knew, and accept it as Orthodox), and yet I would not be so comfortable joining an EO church. I was not really presented with a kind of Orthodoxy that I could relate to until I found the Coptic Church, as odd as that is to say. I'm happy as an OO. It makes sense to me in a way that sometimes the EO way of doing things does not (doesn't make the EO bad, of course; I'm just expressing a personal preference here). It would be an adjustment, for sure.

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 07:35:42 PM »
It makes sense to me in a way that sometimes the EO way of doing things does not

Could you elaborate?

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 07:55:45 PM »
The most obvious and potentially contestable example would probably be that, in general, there seems to be more variation and acceptance of local, historical practice informing the shape of the liturgy in the OO tradition than in the EO. I do not quite know the history of the development of EO liturgical practices or standards or whatever else you would call them, and I would not criticize the EO on this account (after all, the OO churches also developed distinct standards of their own, to no one's particular fault :D), but I believe that we have had threads here on OC.net asking the question of what a native/non-Byzantinized church for the Arabs would look like (I can't find them right now, but I remember Isa responded to one such thread), and of course even EO sources write without prejudice about the process of Byzantinization. So I don't mean this as any kind of slur, but there is more uniformity among the EO on this level. Again, not a bad thing in itself, but I like the OO liturgies as they are, and of course treasure the unique spiritualities that they express. If I wanted to be a Byzantine, I could have done that (in fact, much easier than finding a Coptic church and joining it). I do not want do do that.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 07:56:17 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Father Peter

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,673
    • British Orthodox Church
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 01:30:01 PM »
I wanted to become Orthodox and ended up following a path that God seemed to be laying out for me.

I continued as an OO with increasing conviction. Chalcedon was not a major issue, but has become more significant for me.

I converted 18 years ago at the end of a period of 4 or 5 years enquiry and participation.
Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,175
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 07:24:48 PM »
--Subscribed--
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »
Severian, was Chalcedon important to you when you converted?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,175
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 07:45:22 PM »
Severian, was Chalcedon important to you when you converted?
I am no convert, I am a cradle OO from an Egyptian family. What made you think I converted?

Anyway, is Chalcedon important to your inquiry (sp?) into Orthodoxy?

--Peace
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 07:52:44 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 08:01:41 PM »
We are all converts.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,175
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 08:15:45 PM »
^Well, to answer your question, now that I know what transpired at Chalcedon I do agree with the position of the Anti-Chalcedonians who rejected Chalcedon. But, that does not mean I reject EOs as brethren in the faith. And if I were a non-Orthodox converting to Orthodoxy I am not sure if Chalcedon would affect my inquiry into Orthodoxy. Maybe to a slight degree, but I am not sure that would be the turning point.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 08:17:26 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 08:42:23 AM »
The most obvious and potentially contestable example would probably be that, in general, there seems to be more variation and acceptance of local, historical practice informing the shape of the liturgy in the OO tradition than in the EO.

Thanks

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,071
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 10:27:48 AM »
i would have no problem joining an EO church in the future (eg. if i go to live in a country which is predominantly EO, which is a real possibility in the future) as i believe the Christology is basically the same in the two groups of orthodox churches.

Perhaps you would have no problem joining an EO church in the future if you could just walk in and receive communion.  But, what if more would be required of you?  Would it be a problem for you if chrismation were required, or baptism?

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »
Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 01:44:18 PM »
Hmm. I appreciate the sentiment, PP, but I hope it doesn't turn this thread into a debate over Chalcedon/the Tome of Leo/Miaphysitism.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 01:54:57 PM »
Hmm. I appreciate the sentiment, PP, but I hope it doesn't turn this thread into a debate over Chalcedon/the Tome of Leo/Miaphysitism.
I hope not. Just my opinion :)

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,453
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenist Gay Heresy
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 04:03:31 AM »
Hmm. I appreciate the sentiment, PP, but I hope it doesn't turn this thread into a debate over Chalcedon/the Tome of Leo/Miaphysitism.

+ 1

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 04:08:24 AM »
Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP

Sadly, members from both sides would vehemently reject a "reunification" of sorts
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Father Peter

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,673
    • British Orthodox Church
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 09:09:52 AM »
But a great many wholeheartedly support such efforts.
Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Ergib

  • O Lord according to Your mercy; not according to my sins.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 09:23:04 AM »
Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP

Agree with you 100%!

Offline mabsoota

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,859
  • Kyrie eleison
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox (Coptic)
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 02:39:10 PM »
But a great many wholeheartedly support such efforts.
+1
 :)

Offline Hiwot

  • Christ is Risen!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,959
  • Job 19:25-27
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 08:50:47 PM »
But a great many wholeheartedly support such efforts.

Indeed, compelled to do so by the Truth!
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline HouseOfGod

  • Passionate Orthodox teenager
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 10:23:25 PM »
Im not OO, but I think we're the same Church, and the split is now mostly ego.

PP

Sadly, members from both sides would vehemently reject a "reunification" of sorts
I'm EO, and I'm 15, and I wouldn't reject that at all. Maybe the next generation  ;) From what I've learned about this topic and the stances of people my age, it isn't a problem for most of us  :P
Renewal during the first month of the new ecclesiastical calendar! :)

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 11:17:30 PM »
It's weird how generally very theologically traditional Christians (from both sides) can just wholeheartedly embrace a such a liberal ecclesiology on this issue.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Father Peter

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,673
    • British Orthodox Church
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2012, 11:34:35 AM »
Is it weird? or have you not yet gained a proper, historical insight into Orthodox ecclesiology?

It is a fact that many converts (I am a convert myself) develop a highly theoretical ecclesiology that has no relation to what the Church has actually ever done. It is therefore a false ecclesiology, even though it seems very neat.
Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,999
Re: An inquiry about OO converts
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »
It's weird how generally very theologically traditional Christians (from both sides) can just wholeheartedly embrace a such a liberal ecclesiology on this issue.

Among those who hold to a more strict ecclesiology, they do not consider the EO and OO to be the same Church now, but who believe we share the same faith and that, because the canons require neither baptism nor chrismation of OO converts, we would become one Church at the moment restoration of Communion is achieved.

In other words, whether one holds to a "liberal" or exclusive ecclesiology, the practical implications now and at the point of reunion remain the same.