Author Topic: What is wrong with this picture?  (Read 22245 times)

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Offline Shiloah

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2004, 03:26:20 PM »
Indeed very timely, Orthodoc. Could you please expound a little on the infallibility of the Church? Or indicate where to read more about it?

With appreciation, Shiloah

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2004, 03:29:35 PM »
[You guys seem to be missing that I'm rather certain that the priest leaves the boys as well - after the sanctuary part.  The girls just don't have the sanctuary part.  IIRC, the priest only sets the babe down if the mother hasn't walked up to the ambon to get the baby immediately (say, 3 secs late).]

My priest replies -

They are not "left on the doorstep" its a real pain when people don't understand the "why" the things are done...This signifies the fact that the mother is accepting the child from God by her own free will and not from the hands of the priest...And her bowing down to pick up the child is an act of humility of accepting the child as a gift from God.....

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Offline Schultz

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2004, 03:44:33 PM »
But I thought from reading others' posts on this thread that the priest does hand the child to the mother and only sets him or her down if the mother doesn't come up within a few seconds?  Or am I just confused?
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2004, 03:57:05 PM »
[Indeed very timely, Orthodoc. Could you please expound a little on the infallibility of the Church? Or indicate where to read more about it?

With appreciation, Shiloah]

Shiloah (what a beautiful name):

Try the following web address -


http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7063.asp

If this doesn't address your questions let me know and I will go further.

Orthodoc
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Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2004, 04:29:35 PM »
I have done a search on google for "Sarantismos" or "40 Day Blessing" and I can't find anywhere where it says anything about putting the baby down on the steps. In all readings of the services I have seen it says the Priest hands the child to the Godmother.

Anastasios or Phil -- can you look this up at St. Vlads?

The only place where I've been able to find anything is in the first volume of The Great Book of Needs put out by Saint Tikhon's Seminary.  While the rubrics of the rite itself do not say how this is done, a footnote explains that the way to do it comes from St. Simeon of Thessalonika.  Boys are taken into the altar to venerate it and then placed "on the Ambon", while girls are not taken into the altar, and are just placed "on the Ambon".  If my understanding of this is correct, everyone is supposed to be "left on the doorstep" and then picked up.

The only two churchings I've seen were of girls.  In the one, it followed her baptism.  In the other, there was no baptism, but the priest, if I'm not mistaken, took the child into the altar (but it was so long ago that I'm not willing to put money on it).

Offline Robert

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2004, 05:13:12 PM »
The picture in question was removed because several websites were linking to it.

Might I remind you, that OrthodoxChristianity.net was the first site to bring the picture to the public :)

We're the best Orthodox webforum on the net, first on the scene, always ready for action. :)

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Offline Donna Rose

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2004, 05:33:52 PM »
Quote
Well, as a girl she must be shown her place in the Church. Maybe she can help bake something instead?

Ha ha. Well to be sure, yes she could help bake the prosfora (is that the word?), along w/ her guy friends if they so chose ;). But other things include singing in the choir, as well as the unseen services like cleaning and collecting the candles after services so a fire does not start, taking care of any plants in or around the church (i.e. flowers, etc.) by watering them and replacing them when they start to look dead, helping to change the color scheme in the church depending on the feast day, and other stuff I see the women at my parish doing when not many people are around to see - there are lots of things that a parish needs people to do, and just because these things aren't done during Divine Liturgy doesn't make them any less important or necessary for a parish to be run. OH and then there's the biggie of teaching Sunday school - another service both men and women can share in.
hmmmm...

Offline Fr. David

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2004, 06:11:14 PM »
Rock on, Wayne.  ;)

Party on, Garth.  ;)
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Offline Ebor

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2004, 06:23:31 PM »
Yes, *how* the young lady is told is important.  Just to re-work the old saying:

" Sticks and Stones may break my bones
      But words can scar the soul."

I hope that she will be told in a way that the man telling her would like to be given painful news.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2004, 06:27:08 PM »
Ha ha. Well to be sure, yes she could help bake the prosfora (is that the word?), along w/ her guy friends if they so chose ;). But other things include singing in the choir, as well as the unseen services like cleaning and collecting the candles after services so a fire does not start, taking care of any plants in or around the church (i.e. flowers, etc.) by watering them and replacing them when they start to look dead, helping to change the color scheme in the church depending on the feast day, and other stuff I see the women at my parish doing when not many people are around to see - there are lots of things that a parish needs people to do, and just because these things aren't done during Divine Liturgy doesn't make them any less important or necessary for a parish to be run. OH and then there's the biggie of teaching Sunday school - another service both men and women can share in.

I suppose one question is:  Depending on how it's presented, mightl the various cleaning and care jobs be percieved as work that the men and boys don't want to do?  "Women's Work" and all that, such as TomS cited.

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Offline Donna Rose

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2004, 07:55:39 PM »
Quote
I suppose one question is:  Depending on how it's presented, mightl the various cleaning and care jobs be percieved as work that the men and boys don't want to do?  "Women's Work" and all that, such as TomS cited.

Ebor

Of course, as you say, it does depend on how it is presented. And if the situation were actually as you describe it, then the problem actually belongs to those men and boys who will have to eventually answer for their feelings of superiority (since such feelings are about self-glorification and not service for the glorification of God). However, why does it have to be that BECAUSE a woman cannot do one service she is just left doing the other? Why instead can't it be a positive assertion, such as, a woman is better suited to do such tasks and so they should be hers? Sadly, I realize, no matter how I frame this, there is a way to view it as sexist - such is the world we live in today. But I do mean what I've said in a positive, celebrating-the-gifts-God-gave-us sort of way...this is not to say that if a man has no calling to serve the altar but does feel qualified to teach Sunday school or empty dirty flower water and replace it with clean, he can't.

I guess, I don't know what I'm saying exactly, except this: as a young woman of my generation (I'm 20) who's attending college at a very liberal institution, I have spent these past few years coming to grips with how to address these kinds of situations and what reaction is least selfish and with God most in mind (if that makes sense), and I have come to the conclusion that 'tis a privilege and a blessing to be able to serve God at all, even if it simply means leading a Christian life (arguably the most difficult service to God of them all). When the service is in fact for God alone, it doesn't matter what it actually is - if it's also for self, that is when hurt feelings originating in pride come in.

And for the record, I am often guilty of such hurt feelings - just because I have worked out what is right doesn't mean I have been successful at executing it (although the few times I have been successful, I have been more happy and fulfilled than the times I perform a service and yet hold grudges of self-righteousness).
hmmmm...

Offline TonyS

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2004, 09:18:49 PM »
The only place where I've been able to find anything is in the first volume of The Great Book of Needs put out by Saint Tikhon's Seminary.  While the rubrics of the rite itself do not say how this is done, a footnote explains that the way to do it comes from St. Simeon of Thessalonika.  Boys are taken into the altar to venerate it and then placed "on the Ambon", while girls are not taken into the altar, and are just placed "on the Ambon".  If my understanding of this is correct, everyone is supposed to be "left on the doorstep" and then picked up.

The only two churchings I've seen were of girls.  In the one, it followed her baptism.  In the other, there was no baptism, but the priest, if I'm not mistaken, took the child into the altar (but it was so long ago that I'm not willing to put money on it).    

Schmemann's Of Water and the Spirit discusses the churching of the child, it might have something on it.
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Offline Shiloah

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2004, 10:07:34 PM »
[Indeed very timely, Orthodoc. Could you please expound a little on the infallibility of the Church? Or indicate where to read more about it?

With appreciation, Shiloah]

Shiloah (what a beautiful name):

Try the following web address -


http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7063.asp

If this doesn't address your questions let me know and I will go further.

Orthodoc


This is a great article, Orthodoc, and I would like to quote with pleasure a passage from it that also fits perfectly with what has been discussed here on this thread in regard to the members keeping a watchful eye on what the leadership does. The words in that passage are almost Solomonic, and I can live with what is said. I would have my problems with the infallibility of the RC Pope, which is quite a  young doctrine anyhow, isn't it?

I am very thankful for the Orthodox Church and the Holy Tradition and that it has been preserved without compromise. Everything in it is so meaningful! :)

Quote
This Church of Christ has in its nature. the tendency to become and to grow; it has the nature to engulf and develop the truths of Revelation; it is to be delved into from time to time in finding and pronouncing the truths of which the Church is the Pillar. The Church, as a whole, is infallible, but not God-inspired to the extent that it has understood the entire depth of the truths and formulated and proclaimed them to the world. The Church by nature and duty from time to time - to settle controversies - formulates, defines and pronounces some of these Revealed truths. In such instances, the Fathers of the Church assembled in synods to discuss the disputed points and to decree and interpret the correct meaning of those truths. In doing so, the synods of the Fathers, as a whole and as individuals, believe that their decisions are infallible. Their decisions, however, remain pending for acceptance by the "Conscience of the Church", which is the consent of all the faithful, clergy and laity.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 10:09:44 PM by Shiloah »
"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

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Offline mourad

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Re:What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2004, 07:56:50 PM »
where's the pic again?

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2012, 11:59:34 PM »
Out of curiosity, why are 3 forum members (currently) viewing this 7 1/2 year old post? Seems like a strange coincidence... :)

Offline Salpy

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2012, 12:40:26 AM »
Someone in the private forum was asking what the problem with altar girls is.  I recalled seeing this thread and linked it.

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2012, 12:41:28 AM »
Ahh, ok, thanks :)

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #107 on: June 29, 2012, 01:32:25 AM »
Odd coincidence, this was revived while I was reading a similar topic on another site. I started looking for additional sources andthe original OCA statement and found this:

http://stjohnthedivinejax.org/parish-information/youth-portal/acolyte-program

A Greek Church in Jacksonville is training (and presumably using) female acolytes. What the heck?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 01:32:53 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Maria

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #108 on: June 29, 2012, 01:43:18 AM »
Odd coincidence, this was revived while I was reading a similar topic on another site. I started looking for additional sources andthe original OCA statement and found this:

http://stjohnthedivinejax.org/parish-information/youth-portal/acolyte-program

A Greek Church in Jacksonville is training (and presumably using) female acolytes. What the heck?

Oh, wow.

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #109 on: June 29, 2012, 10:31:03 AM »
Hopefully, they'll never train anybody to be a fatheress.
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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #110 on: June 29, 2012, 11:46:37 AM »
Hopefully, they'll never train anybody to be a fatheress.

Equal rights to those of mixed gender!


Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #111 on: June 29, 2012, 12:54:52 PM »
Assumption in St. Louis has the right idea:
http://www.assumptiongoc.com/Ministry/AcolytesHandmaidens.dsp

"Learning to prepare and share in the preparation of liturgical elements, such as:  prosforo, koliva for memorial services incense, and candles

Special projects will be planned during the year.  Also, during the meetings, the girls will have fun doing projects, learning about the lives of female Saints, and learning important information about the Orthodox Church. "

And St. Timothy in Fairfield, CA:
http://www.sttimothy.us/ministries.html

"The Myrrh-bearers may focus their ministry on chanting and singing with the Choir (with the approval of the Choir Director), learning about and ringing the "Bells of St Timothy," serving alongside our Hospitality or Greeter Teams, assisting the teachers of our younger children, and tending the prayer candles during prayer and worship."

Isn't St. Nina's Quarterly a more liberal Orthodox site? (like on the same vein as Axios?)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 01:07:53 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Nigula Qian Zishi

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Re: What is wrong with this picture?
« Reply #112 on: June 29, 2012, 07:46:23 PM »
Odd coincidence, this was revived while I was reading a similar topic on another site. I started looking for additional sources andthe original OCA statement and found this:

http://stjohnthedivinejax.org/parish-information/youth-portal/acolyte-program

A Greek Church in Jacksonville is training (and presumably using) female acolytes. What the heck?

I guess it is time for another 5 pages and writing to the hierarchs and see if it gets fixed this time too!
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