Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 1693 times)

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Offline God Bless3232

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Atheism
« on: May 02, 2012, 09:03:41 PM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 09:07:35 PM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks
You prove God exists by being God, not by talking about Him.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:07:50 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline biro

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 09:07:54 PM »
Sometimes atheists say that the Universe 'looks like' one that doesn't need a God.

I say, how could they know? Where's the 'other Universe' they've tested for comparison?

Offline amartin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 09:15:44 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Offline biro

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 09:19:23 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Offline amartin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 09:33:15 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Only the gnostics have the true knowledge and understandings of the universe. This has been affirmed by countless Orthodox teachers. Until you attain gnosis, you are only a member of the simple masses.

Offline biro

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 09:36:32 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Only the gnostics have the true knowledge and understandings of the universe. This has been affirmed by countless Orthodox teachers. Until you attain gnosis, you are only a member of the simple masses.

Excuse you, the Orthodox are not Gnostics and they have remonstrated Gnosticism as a heresy. Get out of your little cult and learn what you're talking about.

Offline amartin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 09:37:44 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Only the gnostics have the true knowledge and understandings of the universe. This has been affirmed by countless Orthodox teachers. Until you attain gnosis, you are only a member of the simple masses.

Excuse you, the Orthodox are not Gnostics and they have remonstrated Gnosticism as a heresy. Get out of your little cult and learn what you're talking about.

Read the Fathers and the Philokalia. They teach the absolute necessity of GNOSIS.

Offline biro

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 09:50:51 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Only the gnostics have the true knowledge and understandings of the universe. This has been affirmed by countless Orthodox teachers. Until you attain gnosis, you are only a member of the simple masses.

Excuse you, the Orthodox are not Gnostics and they have remonstrated Gnosticism as a heresy. Get out of your little cult and learn what you're talking about.

Read the Fathers and the Philokalia. They teach the absolute necessity of GNOSIS.

No, they teach theosis and knowledge that is only a gift from God- not the Gnostic heresy and not any supremacy of knowledge over the Spirit.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 10:02:42 PM »
Don't feed the troll...he's being a big joke
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 10:02:48 PM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks
On a scientific level no one can prove that god exists. The same holds true for your friend. He cant prove he doesn't. Christianity is faith based. If god was in our presents at this very moment faith wouldn't be needed.
  Now on the other hand. God is a person and a person isn't defined by science. The person of god is love. All of the wonderful thing that you hear about him aren't scientific attributes. They are attributes that speak to the hearts of people. Once these attributes are recognized than that is what constitutes knowledge of his existence. Science can not grasp spiritual knowledge because it isn't part of the physical realm.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 10:15:17 PM »
It's easier to argue with an Atheist as to why their beliefs are wrong, rather than Scientific proof of God.

If God is Love, as the bible dictates, Science has NOT proven the actual FEELING of love, that we all know exists.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:17:34 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 10:18:55 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Only the gnostics have the true knowledge and understandings of the universe. This has been affirmed by countless Orthodox teachers. Until you attain gnosis, you are only a member of the simple masses.

Excuse you, the Orthodox are not Gnostics and they have remonstrated Gnosticism as a heresy. Get out of your little cult and learn what you're talking about.

Read the Fathers and the Philokalia. They teach the absolute necessity of GNOSIS.

No, they teach theosis and knowledge that is only a gift from God- not the Gnostic heresy and not any supremacy of knowledge over the Spirit.

Agree with biro.

Gnosticism puts a huge bend on the scripture, allows men to become Gods, and calls YHWH a tyrant.  It is a rejection of the Trinity, blasphemes Christ and the books of the Nag Hammadi codex are an outrage and potentially the heresy of all heresies.   The books of the Nag Hammadi aslo support the affair between Christ and Mary Magdalene.  I personally believe Gnosticism to be the foundation of the Luciferian faith.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 10:55:27 PM »
There's no point in arguing. I have a good relationship with an Orthodox couple, but when they start trying to hint at why my godless views are baseless, I close up and don't want to listen. It's a natural human reaction; you don't want to be confronted by someone who keeps trying to make dents in your belief system until it mirrors their own, especially if it's done slyly.

I say, work on being what you want to be. You believe in a god, so don't you think he has other vehicles to your friend besides you?

I don't think it's inappropriate to ever talk religion with a non-believer, but there's a difference between having a shared discussion of ideas versus one side trying to win the other over while the other doesn't want to engage at all.

Offline amartin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 11:05:49 PM »
There's no point in arguing. I have a good relationship with an Orthodox couple, but when they start trying to hint at why my godless views are baseless, I close up and don't want to listen. It's a natural human reaction; you don't want to be confronted by someone who keeps trying to make dents in your belief system until it mirrors their own, especially if it's done slyly.

I say, work on being what you want to be. You believe in a god, so don't you think he has other vehicles to your friend besides you?

I don't think it's inappropriate to ever talk religion with a non-believer, but there's a difference between having a shared discussion of ideas versus one side trying to win the other over while the other doesn't want to engage at all.

Shocking.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 11:11:02 PM »
I think proclaiming the Gospel is better than arguing for it. No one can be persuaded or argued into the faith, and those who are generally don't stay long. There is a reason why we are told in holy scripture that no one can proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit. I agree with Lovesupreme that arguing with your atheist friend will do nothing good. I have many atheist or at least agnostic friends and one of the secrets to getting along so well is that they know that they can express any doubts or questions they have to me without fear that it will degenerate into an argument (I find it sadly much easier to slip into arguments with believers, as we can assume some common ground, so it sometimes invites short-tempered responses when someone who seems to be capable of reaching your viewpoint won't do so). You should try it sometime. A light touch works wonders. Though I can't say I've ever converted anyone, I can say I have been a sort of catalyst for some re-thinking of presuppositions, and that's really more than I could ask for, or even thought that I was doing. God will do the rest, if the person will cooperate with Him.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 02:01:11 AM »
I do not think God's main purpose is for us to believe that He exists, or else He would reveal Himself to the world more than He already does. I think that His greatest goal is for us to become transformed in a particular way and maybe come to know Him somewhere along the process. I think that God wants us to make it in this world by ourselves to some extent before explicitly revealing Himself to us, kind of like when a parent gives their child some important job or task of maturity to do by themselves, and the parent is nowhere to be found because they want the child to learn to do it on their own, but really the entire time the parent was secretly watching from afar, smiling proud. Who knows? Maybe for all we know that all of those extremely devout, humble Hindu monastics and elders in India are more spiritually connected to God than we are, even without explicitly knowing Him.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:05:15 AM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Papist

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 09:14:18 AM »
Even if one believes that it is possible to prove that God exists, something I believe, people are often more mired in their ideology than they are in truth. Thus, an argument with an atheist is often fruitless.
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Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 09:28:24 AM »
Even if one believes that it is possible to prove that God exists, something I believe, people are often more mired in their ideology than they are in truth. Thus, an argument with an atheist is often fruitless.

+1

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 10:19:10 AM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks

Generally when people are strongly atheist or strongly Christian it is difficult to argue them out of that position by attacking a single ship out of an entire armada. The armada gives support to the ship you are attacking, and is also called upon to counter-attack you, so it is difficult to win quickly or decisively. You have to realise that winning the battle is almost never about taking out a single ship, even the flagship. It is a battle of attrition. You have to battle long and hard, with the goal not being not so much to sink any one ship, but rather to do enough damage to his fleet that the entire situation changes. So then, I think you are on the right track if you have "tried many ways". Do not think your efforts are having no impact, for many people will not show publically (especially in the middle of an argument/discussion) the doubts or thoughtful contemplations and reconsiderations that is going on in their head.

But conversion is a matter of the heart--a healing of the heart; the war effort is not going to make him convert, it is just going to wear down his defenses. God wants to change our hearts, but we use the head as a defensive fleet preventing that. The goal is to create enough gaps in the defenses to allow grace to slip through. God could force his way through the small rowboats we use by running the intellectual blockade with ironclads, but he prefers to not force himself onto us. Rather, people, using arguments rather than armaments, help others to see where they were wrong (or maybe just potentially wrong). The arguments do no lasting damage, except perhaps to the ego, and it is grace that does the converting.


EDIT--Edited to say... woh, why didn't my verbosity meter go off with that one?  :D
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:27:30 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Papist

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 11:58:40 AM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks

Generally when people are strongly atheist or strongly Christian it is difficult to argue them out of that position by attacking a single ship out of an entire armada. The armada gives support to the ship you are attacking, and is also called upon to counter-attack you, so it is difficult to win quickly or decisively. You have to realise that winning the battle is almost never about taking out a single ship, even the flagship. It is a battle of attrition. You have to battle long and hard, with the goal not being not so much to sink any one ship, but rather to do enough damage to his fleet that the entire situation changes. So then, I think you are on the right track if you have "tried many ways". Do not think your efforts are having no impact, for many people will not show publically (especially in the middle of an argument/discussion) the doubts or thoughtful contemplations and reconsiderations that is going on in their head.

But conversion is a matter of the heart--a healing of the heart; the war effort is not going to make him convert, it is just going to wear down his defenses. God wants to change our hearts, but we use the head as a defensive fleet preventing that. The goal is to create enough gaps in the defenses to allow grace to slip through. God could force his way through the small rowboats we use by running the intellectual blockade with ironclads, but he prefers to not force himself onto us. Rather, people, using arguments rather than armaments, help others to see where they were wrong (or maybe just potentially wrong). The arguments do no lasting damage, except perhaps to the ego, and it is grace that does the converting.


EDIT--Edited to say... woh, why didn't my verbosity meter go off with that one?
  :D
Actually, I think it was an excellent post.
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Offline Sluggo1971

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 02:11:59 PM »
For me the answer is the exhibited effect of grace in your own life.  Until I have fully convinced myself, I do not pretend to be able to convince others of this truth.  In short, your walk wins more battles than your talk.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 04:10:24 PM »
To quote a very wise man, "You can't argue someone into faith, you can only prove Christ by being Christ to them."


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Offline Shiny

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2012, 04:19:23 PM »
Even if one believes that it is possible to prove that God exists, something I believe, people are often more mired in their ideology than they are in truth. Thus, an argument with an atheist is often fruitless.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 04:21:16 PM »
Even if one believes that it is possible to prove that God exists, something I believe, people are often more mired in their ideology than they are in truth. Thus, an argument with an atheist is often fruitless.
This.
+2
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Offline Nicene

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 08:01:45 AM »
Prove them wrong? I don't know about that, just present your reasons and be an example to them.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 10:54:08 AM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks

Atheists always want people to prove God.

Yet they don't have anything they prove themselves.   They often follow Scientific "theories" such as the "big bang" and "evolution".  Yet they set heavier standards for others asking for viable proof, and ignoring historical documents, witnesses testimony, and people's writing of the "days" that didn't have camcorders to record every event.

I think the hypocrisy runs wild when debating atheists. 
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2012, 02:20:24 PM »
"The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness." - Pierre-Simon Laplace

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2012, 06:00:42 PM »
Today was the Sunday of the Samaritan woman, Saint Photini, Equal to the Apostles and Martyr. What had happened to her after her conversion by Christ was simply this: she told everyone her story, how the Lord had changed her life, that's all. I believe that if we all so testify, those who have ears to hear will do so.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2012, 06:03:08 PM »
How can i prove an atheist wrong. I have tried many ways but he won't budge. Can i have some good hints!


I need to prove to him that our beloved lord exists!


thanks

Atheists always want people to prove God.

Yet they don't have anything they prove themselves.   They often follow Scientific "theories" such as the "big bang" and "evolution".  Yet they set heavier standards for others asking for viable proof, and ignoring historical documents, witnesses testimony, and people's writing of the "days" that didn't have camcorders to record every event.

I think the hypocrisy runs wild when debating atheists. 


You mean atheists have nothing good to offer in place of religion? I agree.
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Offline Severian

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2012, 02:20:28 PM »
--Bumped and subscribed--
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2012, 03:39:11 PM »
“Preach the gospel always, if necessary, use words”.  St. Francis of Assisi

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."
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Offline Severian

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2012, 03:46:55 PM »
NVM!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 03:57:07 PM by Severian »
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2012, 04:05:00 PM »
"I want an atheism I can dance to." - OrthoNeech

Offline J Michael

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2012, 04:20:33 PM »
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline Severian

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2012, 07:48:33 PM »
NVM!

Hey--you bumped it  ::)!
I edited this post of mine (reply #32) because I didn't feel it was useful in promoting discussion. Lord only knows why you are rolling your eyes at me.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 07:57:47 PM by Severian »
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2012, 02:05:07 PM »
NVM!

Hey--you bumped it  ::)!
I edited this post of mine (reply #32) because I didn't feel it was useful in promoting discussion. Lord only knows why you are rolling your eyes at me.

Probably a misunderstanding.  I only saw the "NVM" in post 32 and not what you edited out of it.  So I thought you were saying "NVM" to the previous posts and then wondered why you bothered to resurrect the thread.  Sorry.
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Offline Severian

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2012, 02:11:10 PM »
^No problem. :)
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2012, 03:06:35 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.

Gnosticism is a heresy.

Only the gnostics have the true knowledge and understandings of the universe. This has been affirmed by countless Orthodox teachers. Until you attain gnosis, you are only a member of the simple masses.

BZZT wrong. 

Gnostics are worshippers of Lucifer.   They blaspheme YHWH, whom they call an inferior God to "Sophia" and cruel.   That's why Aliester Crowley made the OTO liturgy blaspheming the Orthodox liturgy, and their "Eucharist" contains semen or blood of a child.  They also like to teach about Jesus's affair with MM, which is blasphemy.   Gnostics believe in becoming Gods of themselves, and that Jesus was an exalted man (Mormonism anybody?)

Freemasonry, Mormonism, Gnosticism, and Luciferianism all link up.

Sources:
OTO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientis
Gnostic Mass - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_XV,_The_Gnostic_Mass
Gnostic Mass Eucharist called "cake of light" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake_of_Light
They are sick, nasty, disgusting folk.

So... take one Matrix with a side of V for vendetta, and call me lame.    :o
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2012, 03:16:44 PM »
Atheists do not believe in God because of their experience on this planet. This is a vastly evil place. I would tell them that God cannot change the evils without their help because there is a chasm between the divine and earthly realms that does not permit direct causation by God.
How did I miss this gem.
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Offline truthseeker32

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2012, 09:00:01 PM »
It's easier to argue with an Atheist as to why their beliefs are wrong, rather than Scientific proof of God.
I fully agree with this statement. I have quite a few friends who are/ were atheists (myself included in the "were" category) who have been much more compelled by the arguments undermining atheism than those for the existence of God.

There is the argument for morality, causality, immaterial things (consciousness, ideas, scientific/ mathematical laws), from history, argument for desire, etc.

Ultimately the atheist has to be truly open and willing to accept that there may actually be a God.