Author Topic: Have You Ever...  (Read 3726 times)

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Offline mikhail90

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Have You Ever...
« on: November 15, 2004, 06:10:06 AM »
Hey Everyone,
im new here and this is my first post ;)
aniways, i just wanted to post a topic to find out:
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH?
i am Coptic Orthodox, and id like to know this, to get an idea, of how known or unknown my faith is.
ThAnX
GBU ;)

Offline Robert

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2004, 08:56:32 AM »
Hey Mikhail,

There are a few (?) Coptic Orthodox here.

However, you posted this in the wrong board, so I am moving it.

Robert

Offline gphadraig

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2004, 09:52:36 AM »
Yes, I went several times with a friend to the central London, England, coptic church. He was a hypo-deacon.

Different but familiar too, to one who is Orthodox. Unlike my visits to Catholic, Anglican and non-conformist places of worship, where to be honest I felt a bit like a visitor from another planet. Or, as my daughter put, "Dad, it's boring!"

Guess that might work the other way too...........
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Offline yBeayf

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2004, 12:46:14 PM »
I've been to the local Coptic church several times, both in their old makeshift building with absolutely lovely traditional iconography, and their stunningly beautiful new building, which unfortunately has incredibly Westernized, Protestant-white-bread-looking iconography. They have some excellent cantors there (I adore Coptic chant), a very nice old hieromonk as the rector, and they don't skimp on the incense, which I've noticed some EOx tend to do. When they say they're doing a Raising of Incense, they mean it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2004, 03:40:47 PM »
I've been to the local Coptic church several times, both in their old makeshift building with absolutely lovely traditional iconography, and their stunningly beautiful new building, which unfortunately has incredibly Westernized, Protestant-white-bread-looking iconography.

Hi Beayf - Do you mean that they moved into a building formerly occupied by Protestants and left up their "iconography", or do you mean that they are now producing these kinds of pictures themselves?
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Offline mikhail90

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2004, 07:51:38 PM »
thanx for ur replies guys :)
very interesting  :D
GBU ;)

Offline penelope

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2004, 10:03:57 PM »
I've been meaning to visit the Coptic church in my city, but it's a bit of a trip, so I haven't gotten around to it...
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Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2004, 10:47:39 PM »
Yes, I have visited my local Coptic Orthodox Church and I had a truly wonderful experience worshipping with there and I do plan on popping in for a visit again sometime to refresh my memory of the Holy Liturgy and the beautiful hymns.

Btw - this is the website for the church if you are interested in viewing it:

http://www.stmarkchicago.org/

Their website is a real treasure trove of interesting things, like MP3's of various liturgies as well as several videos of complete liturgies, check it out!

In Christ,
Aaron

Offline Rustaveli

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2004, 09:03:26 AM »
I have visited Liturgy several times at an Ethiopian Orthodox Church, a small & newly- founded parish in the area of Raleigh, North Carolina, USA.

I have long been interested in the Ethiopian Church, and the opportunity to visit there was a great blessing (which I miss, having moved away from that area).

The people were wonderfully kind and welcoming to me, and the services were glorious in their beauty and enriched by the deep and sincere piety of the people.

(I mention this is this thread because the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches are Sister Churches, and the ties between the two are very ancient, indeed).

If you ever have a chance to visit an Ethiopian Orthodox Church, I highly recommend it!

Here's a good website:

www.dskmariam.org

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 09:07:06 AM by Rustaveli »

Offline Robert

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2004, 09:06:45 AM »
Hey Rustaveli!

It's a pretty cool parish isn't it?

I went in once during Old Calendar Christmas.  And while I couldn't understand a word, it was still pretty neat.  The Coptic Church in Raleigh is also a pretty happenin' place as well..

If you're ever in Raleigh give me a buzz so we can chill.

R

Offline Rustaveli

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2004, 09:12:32 AM »
Greeting and Salutations, exalted Administrator!

Thanks for your greeting.

Yep, cool indeed is the Ethiopian Flock of Raleigh!

... I forgot to mention in my last post that there was, for me, a "language barrier", as the services (and announcements, and sermon...) are all in Amharic and Ge'ez -

The priest, however,  made a special effort to bring an English-language summary of the sermon topic for the day, if he knew that I would be visiting -

Also, the Brethren & Sistren seemed to have confidence [beyond my abilities, I fear... ;) ] that I could pick up the chants and texts to the service.

I'd been thinking just recently of making a trip to Raleigh to visit this church again -

I'll drop a line before the event "drops".

Thanks to you & your colleagues for this great website!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 09:35:06 AM by Rustaveli »

Offline Rustaveli

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2004, 09:20:02 AM »
P.S., "<4p'|| r0b3r+0" -

What's that Red Symbol beneath your name?

... Is it a Daemonic Mark of some kind?

[Disclaimer: I am a devotee of Ramses, The Ram-King of Ed-u-ma-cation...]!

 - Just playin'  8)

Anywho, ... My new bride, who is a Catechumen, is quite interested in the Ethiopian and Coptic Churches, also, and her Dad (Charismatic Protestant) has become quite interested in the Orthodox Faith.

Perhaps we will make a pilgrimage before the Hounds of Winter gnaw at the door!

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 09:36:12 AM by Rustaveli »

Offline ania

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2004, 10:53:50 AM »
Oops, I voted no, but I have been.
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline yBeayf

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2004, 02:45:06 PM »
Quote
Hi Beayf - Do you mean that they moved into a building formerly occupied by Protestants and left up their "iconography", or do you mean that they are now producing these kinds of pictures themselves?

No, they previously had a 2-story parish hall building, the second story of which they were using for their church. They recently finished constructing a proper church, which is quite huge and impressive. The iconography they chose was the white-bread stuff (my favorite is St. George in a Spanish conquistador outfit).

Some pictures of the iconography are here and here.

[Upon reflection, I feel I should clarify my description of the artwork as "Protestant." Most of it is actually similar to 1950s Catholic sentimental devotional art, but the icons of the 12 apostles on the iconostas (hard to see in the linked pictures) remind me greatly of early 20th-century Protestant, and especially Mormon, religious art - i.e. the apostles as tanned, muscular Manly Men.]

Also, I am curious about Coptic vestments. The ones being worn by the deacons and servers seem straightforward enough, but it looks like the priests and bishops are only wearing a sticharion. Do Copts not have stoles/epigonatia and chasubles/phelonia? What is the significance of the priests wearing Latin-style mitres, but the bishops only wearing cowls?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 09:36:14 PM by Beayf »

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2004, 10:20:36 PM »
IC XC NIKA
Peace
Beayf,
Yes, our priests do wear chasubles, but usually only on Sunday's or Feast days.  Only parish priest's wear that thing that looks like a Bishop's hat in the Catholic church, bishops as well as monks wear a white hood over their black hood.  In the Eritrean Orthodox church they do as well, white over the black hood, if the monk is a priest.  However, in the Syrian and Indian Orthodox, the monk-priests just wear their black hoods; no white one.  What is the significance? I really don't know.  And I have to agree, those ikons were a bit of a disapointment, I assure you not all Coptic Churches look like that one.
With all love and peace.
copticorthodoxboy

Offline yBeayf

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2004, 10:52:56 PM »
What about stoles/epigonatia? I know the Western rites have just a strip of cloth round the neck, the Byzantines have the two pieces hanging down sewn together, and from looking here it appears the Syrians have a single piece of cloth with a hole for the neck. Do the Copts have anything similar? Also, are Coptic vestments always white?

Quote
And I have to agree, those ikons were a bit of a disapointment, I assure you not all Coptic Churches look like that one.

I know; their old iconostas had very nice traditional Coptic icons, which makes it all the more perplexing (to me, at least) why they would go with the style they did in their main church. Eh, their money, their building.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 10:58:23 PM by Beayf »

Offline J

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2004, 01:10:59 AM »
I have two Coptic teachers.  I've been to the church a couple of times, but since I'll be back in town for old-calendar Christmas, maybe I'll go check theirs out.  It's always good practice for my Arabic (the Coptic isn't so bad...it reads like Greek usually, but it isn't, heheh).  I like traditional Coptic iconography a lot, personally.  The western-style stuff isn't very appealing to me, but it's prevalent even in Greek and Russian/American churches sometimes.  I should read a book on it someday.

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2004, 06:31:02 PM »
IC XC NIKA
Peace
I am not to familiar with all the names of the vestments, I usually just generalize.  At any rate, the Pope and Bishops usually only wear the chasable; very VERY rarely does the Pope wear the crown, and get fully dressed; same with Bishops.  Our priests usually only wear white, yeah, this is true.  However, during Holy Week, the curtains are changed to black, and then the vestments are black, I believe.  That is the only switch I know of in the Coptic tradition.  At www.britishorthodox.org, you can see the Pope and some Bishops dressed up in their full Liturgical vestments in the picture gallery (Met. Seraphim with other Church leaders); but as I stated, they rarely dress this much up.  
With all love and peace.
copticorthodoxboy

Offline yBeayf

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2004, 06:44:09 PM »
I guess it's really the stole/epigonation that I'm really curious about (the long, thin strip of cloth that is worn over the neck, with the two ends hanging down in front), because it seems to be (along with the tunic/sticharion) the "universal" liturgical vestment, that clergy of the Western, Byzantine, Armenian, and Syriac rites wear for any service or sacrament. It's also worn by Western deacons, and Eastern deacons and subdeacons as the orarion, over one shoulder or crossed over both shoulders. It's possible that the Coptic priests do wear it, and it's just hard to see because it's white or being worn under the tunic.

* Beayf wishes there was an illustrated guide to Coptic and Armenian vestments online, like the guides existing for Western, Byzantine, and Syriac ones, because he's a great fan of obscure liturgical detail.

Offline yBeayf

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2004, 07:45:51 PM »
Wee, I'm tired. I've been saying "epigonation" for the stole when it's actually "epitrachelion". Sorry for any confusion, if any confusion existed.

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2004, 07:55:23 PM »
In my experience, Coptic priests wear a sticharion at the Liturgy.  Half the time, I saw a mitre.  The other half, I saw some other white headgear (it was not the monastic schema).  Half the time, I also saw a stole (epitrachelion is the word I believe you want, Beayf, and not epigonation, which is the diamond-shaped shield).  

The one time I attended a Liturgy with a Coptic bishop, he was wearing the same vestments as a priest would, with the addition of the monastic schema.  There was no equivalent to the phayno/phelonion, cuffs, or zone at any of these Liturgies.
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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2004, 07:56:04 PM »
Beayf,

While I was posting, you must've corrected yourself.  Forget I said anything.  ;)
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Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2004, 10:44:23 PM »
IC XC NIKA
Peace,
I know one thing, though.  How do you tell a Coptic monk from a Syrian or an Indian monk?  Okay, with the Syrian and Indian Orthodox, the hood goes behind the ears, while with the Copts, it goes over.  FYI
With all love and peace.
copticorthodoxboy

Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2004, 05:00:46 PM »
I attended a Coptic Liturgy once. They have a beautiful new church they built, in traditional Coptic style, consecrated by His Holiness Pope Shenouda himself, here in Mauldin, SC (about halfway between Atlanta, GA and Charlotte NC).  The people were warm and welcoming, the Liturgy was very very reverent and traditional ( men on one side of the Church and women on the other), the women all veiled their heads, and we all took off our shoes (they told me I did not have to since I was not Coptic, but I did anyway out of respect for them).  I throughly enjoyed the service, and if I wasn't already Russian Orthodox, I think I could easily become Coptic.

Offline Sean

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2004, 05:58:16 PM »
I've visited the coptic and Ethiopian Churches in town. There is also a Mlankara Church here, but I've never been there.
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Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Have You Ever...
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2004, 06:18:29 PM »
Quote
The people were warm and welcoming, the Liturgy was very very reverent and traditional ( men on one side of the Church and women on the other), the women all veiled their heads, and we all took off our shoes (they told me I did not have to since I was not Coptic, but I did anyway out of respect for them).

Your experience sounds very much like my own. I think everyone should visit a Coptic church (if there happens to be one around that is not too far of a distance, that is) to see what it's like!

Quote
I throughly enjoyed the service, and if I wasn't already Russian Orthodox, I think I could easily become Coptic.

You and me both!  

In Christ,
Aaron