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Author Topic: Issues for the Orthodox in India  (Read 1283 times) Average Rating: 0
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dhinuus
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« on: April 16, 2012, 05:14:59 PM »

Dear David

Both the groups are in communion with Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch.   

I can vouch for that personally as I am a member of the Autocephalous jurisdiction and keep the hardship facing the Syrian Orthodox Church in its suffering in my prayers.

Will keep in prayer

George
Dear George,
I am so glad to hear that you are praying for the Syriac Orthodox suffering in Syria . However praying for and being in communion are two different things.

As per the constitution of the Indian Orthodox Church, if there is a Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch that the Indian Orthodox Church is in communion with, then that Patriarch has to be invited to preside over the installation ceremony of the new Catholicose.  Last year when the new Catholicose Baselious MarThoma Paulose II was installed, no such invitation was extended to H.H Ignatius Zakka I, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch.  This is sufficient to prove that the Indian Orthodox Church is not in communion with the Syriac Orthodox Church.

I hope and pray that we do have an end to the schism and have full communion soon. However right now there is a schism.
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dhinuus
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 05:17:26 PM »

Here in the UK there is no loss of communion between the Indian, Jacobite and Syrian Orthodox Churches and I have been to many celebrations of the Liturgy where all three communion together. When we had a Liturgy at the Indian Orthodox Church the Syrian bishop, though unable to attend because out of the country, sent a priest to represent him.

Just a few weeks ago I was at a pan-Orthodox liturgy where there was a shared communion.

Father Peter,
I am so glad to hear this situation in the UK. I hope and pray that a similar spirit can be there in India as well.

Mathew.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 05:17:50 PM by dhinuus » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 05:42:57 PM »

Here in the UK there is no loss of communion between the Indian, Jacobite and Syrian Orthodox Churches and I have been to many celebrations of the Liturgy where all three communion together. When we had a Liturgy at the Indian Orthodox Church the Syrian bishop, though unable to attend because out of the country, sent a priest to represent him.

Just a few weeks ago I was at a pan-Orthodox liturgy where there was a shared communion.

Father Peter,
I am so glad to hear this situation in the UK. I hope and pray that a similar spirit can be there in India as well.

Mathew.

And the US...there has been some lawsuits here due to the divisions.  It has even caused confusion in the Coptic Archdiocese here for a while until things finally clarified at least for us, but still divided for them.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 12:22:07 AM »

Dear Mathew

We can find as many legalties like a constitutions written to divide. If  schism need to be ,we have to have difference in faith.
So I guess the evil one will soon create reason to prove that we don't share the same faith.

Pray you and me  won't be a party to propogate that my friend. As usual for last 10 years, I  withdraw writing further  when I fail on getting your coperation for unity. However, I hope not to stop continuing the effort yet another time. 

George
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dhinuus
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 12:41:11 AM »

We can find as many legalties like a constitutions written to divide.
I cannot agree more. This constitution of 1934, drafted unilaterally by one group, and tried to be forced upon another group thru litigations is one of the sources of division.
If  schism need to be ,we have to have difference in faith. So I guess the evil one will soon create reason to prove that we don't share the same faith.
 
You are confusing Heresy with Schism. I did not say that the Indian Orthodox Church has a different faith from the Syriac Orthodox Church.

I  withdraw writing further  when I fail on getting your coperation for unity. 
If you can take any effort to unity, I personally will cooperate 100%. What I was pointing out earlier was just a fact. You cannot say that the Indian Orthodox Church is in full communion with the Syriac Orthodox Church; when it is not. I really hope it is, but unfortunately it is not the case right now.


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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 12:56:08 PM »

As per the constitution of the Indian Orthodox Church, if there is a Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch that the Indian Orthodox Church is in communion with, then that Patriarch has to be invited to preside over the installation ceremony of the new Catholicose.

Why? Why not a Coptic Pope?
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dhinuus
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 10:55:01 AM »

As per the constitution of the Indian Orthodox Church, if there is a Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch that the Indian Orthodox Church is in communion with, then that Patriarch has to be invited to preside over the installation ceremony of the new Catholicose.

Why? Why not a Coptic Pope?
Because the historical and canoncial relationship of the Church of India (and the Church of all the East) is with the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.  The Coptic Pope is the Patriarch of Alexandria and all of Africa.
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 10:59:07 AM »

As per the constitution of the Indian Orthodox Church, if there is a Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch that the Indian Orthodox Church is in communion with, then that Patriarch has to be invited to preside over the installation ceremony of the new Catholicose.

Why? Why not a Coptic Pope?
Because the historical and canoncial relationship of the Church of India (and the Church of all the East) is with the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.  The Coptic Pope is the Patriarch of Alexandria and all of Africa.

But they are autocephalous (or at least consider themselves to be so), aren't they? So what's the difference for them between Coptic, Syrian or Armenian Patriarchs? All of them are Primates of separate autocephalous Churches.
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dhinuus
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 01:31:49 PM »

As per the constitution of the Indian Orthodox Church, if there is a Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch that the Indian Orthodox Church is in communion with, then that Patriarch has to be invited to preside over the installation ceremony of the new Catholicose.

Why? Why not a Coptic Pope?
Because the historical and canoncial relationship of the Church of India (and the Church of all the East) is with the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.  The Coptic Pope is the Patriarch of Alexandria and all of Africa.

But they are autocephalous (or at least consider themselves to be so), aren't they? So what's the difference for them between Coptic, Syrian or Armenian Patriarchs? All of them are Primates of separate autocephalous Churches.
The fact is Malankara (Indian) Church never officially declared autocephaly. The issue was autonomy. This ambivalence about autonomy and autocephaly can be seen in the constitution of the Malankara (Indian) Orthodox Church especially in article 1 and 2.
http://www.houstonstthomas.org/stthomas/OtherItems/The%20Church%20Constitution.pdf

Look at article 1 and article 2
1 The Malankara Church is a division of the Orthodox Syrian Church. The Primate of the Orthodox Syrian Church is the Patriarch of Antioch.
2 The Malankara Church was founded by St. Thomas the Apostle and is included in the Orthodox Syrian Church of the East and the Primate of the Orthodox Syrian Church of the East is the Catholicos.

Article 114 clearly outlines the role of the Patriarch of Antioch in the installation of a new Catholicose.

114. If any one shall be consecrated as Catholicos he shall be elected to that office by the Association. If such election is approved by the Episcopal Synod, the Synod shall consecrate the person as Catholicos. If there be a Patriarch recognized by the Malankara Church the Patriarch shall be invited when the Catholicos shall be consecrated and if the Patriarch arrives he shall as the President of the Synod consecrate the Catholicos with the
co-operation of the Synod.

Article 118 of the constitution also outlines the role of the Patriarch of Antioch, when a complaint against the Catholicose arises:

118. If the complaint is against the Catholicos, the Patriarch, shall be invited and in the event of his arriving he shall be the President of the Synod and
if he does not arrive the Synod shall pronounce the decision.
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 10:58:31 PM »

Dear Mathew:

Unity can begin with us laying our differences  for some time by looking beyond who we chose as our Prelate the Patriach of Syrian Orthodox or the Catholicose of the East of Malankara( Indian) Orthodox Church and work jointly what we can offer each other to strengthen each other and offer you and me together as individuals to help others in our communities  to live as Orthodox Christian .

If you have some thoughts let us discuss here .  

Having said that, Salpy could you break off the thread as I  believe we have gone beyond David's question

George
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 10:59:35 PM by geovar » Logged
Salpy
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 12:04:13 AM »

No problem.

The thread from which this came is here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43963.new.html#top
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geovar
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2012, 07:36:21 AM »

Issue 1 - Read , Meditate on the Scripture readings of the up coming Holy Qurbana and go to listen

Many from both groups while they stand tall to claim their historical lineage forget this .  The reading of this last Sunday was so beautiful and have found fitting to add the prayer of St. Nereses. Keep in prayer that we force ourselves not to forget to do this.

April 22, 2012 - Sunday after New Sunday
Evening: St.John 21:15-1 , Morning: St.John21:1-14
Before Holy Qurbana
Exodus14:26-31 ,Joshua6,9-21 ,GreatWisdom1:1-8
Holy Qurbana
Acts13:26-39 ,Ephesians6:10-20 ,St.John21:1-14

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13200.msg199055.html#msg199055
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 11:29:51 PM »

Issue 2- Value the common faith of Orthodox Christianity

 In Hindu culture there exist cast like Brahmin, Harijan, Nair etc. and it is easy to perceive different groups within Christianity as Marthomites, Catholics, orthodox, ,yackoba etc.

Many from the two groups knowingly or unwillingly have themselves instead of commonly declaring that they together are Orthodox Christians and living it out as  such have encouraged this .

Praying God have mercy upon us
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2012, 09:29:34 AM »

Isuue 3 - Avoidiing the trust in God to place trust in Legalities, Courts, Media Influence.

In lieu of Prayer and trust in God to correct our wekness and grow in faith being deified for His glory ,  Members from both groups look at the faults of each other and find ways to commend oneselves.

Pray as individuals we turn back to spend time using the prayers inherited from our Fathers in our times, in all our days
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2012, 10:48:58 AM »

are these just problems for the Orthodox in India?
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 09:01:56 PM »

Probably for others too , but defintely problematic issues for Church that St. Thomas laid the foundation of Apostolic faith
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 04:22:45 AM »

What do you mean?
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 08:40:39 AM »

I was responding to 'iamisry' question that these problems like avoiding prayer, trust in God could be for others too than the Orthodox in India. They defenitely need to be resolved as individuals within the Church in India that believe they have been converted to Christianity by St. Thomas  (Both groups would defend at the cost of their lives that St. Thomas did come to Kerala, India)
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 08:35:35 AM »

Which of the two groups in the most conservative? Are there any differences in terms of belief and praxis?

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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 10:15:16 AM »

Which of the two groups in the most conservative? Are there any differences in terms of belief and praxis?


There's absolutely no difference in belief or praxis, we are both Oriental Orthodox and we both use the Malankara Use of the West Syrian Rite. The only difference is the question of jurisdiction. The Jacobite, or Patriarchal, faction believes that India is under the jursidiction of the OO Patriarch of Antioch whereas the Catholicose, or Metropolitan, faction believes India should be under an autocephalous jurisdiction.
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 05:35:59 AM »

Which of the two groups in the most conservative? Are there any differences in terms of belief and praxis?


There's absolutely no difference in belief or praxis, we are both Oriental Orthodox and we both use the Malankara Use of the West Syrian Rite. The only difference is the question of jurisdiction. The Jacobite, or Patriarchal, faction believes that India is under the jursidiction of the OO Patriarch of Antioch whereas the Catholicose, or Metropolitan, faction believes India should be under an autocephalous jurisdiction.

What are the sociological factors behind and/or feeding the schism?
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 09:48:21 AM »

Which of the two groups in the most conservative? Are there any differences in terms of belief and praxis?


There's absolutely no difference in belief or praxis, we are both Oriental Orthodox and we both use the Malankara Use of the West Syrian Rite. The only difference is the question of jurisdiction. The Jacobite, or Patriarchal, faction believes that India is under the jursidiction of the OO Patriarch of Antioch whereas the Catholicose, or Metropolitan, faction believes India should be under an autocephalous jurisdiction.

What are the sociological factors behind and/or feeding the schism?
IMHO its all about money.

Patriarch Yakub III of Antioch had recognized the MOSC's (the independent faction's) autocephaly in 1958 as defined by the 1934 MOSC constitution. Then barely 12 years later in 1970, he releases an encyclical claiming that St. Thomas was not even a deacon and that the Indian Church could not claim Apostolic Succession, therefore, should be under his jurisdiction. This created a huge mess in India and split the Indian faithful in two. Those that agreed with him became the Patriarch faction or the Malankara Syrian Jacobite Church and the rest remained MOSC.

I think the reason he did this was because the vast majority of SOC members were in India before we declared autocephaly (I think there are 500,000 non-Malankara SOC vs 2-4 Million Malankara OO). So when the coffers started running dry for the SOC he needed the Malankara members.

Again that's my opinion. If you ask a SOC person he'll give you a totally different story.
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 08:23:25 AM »

Sj
I think it is our ego and we have to go much beyond the 1958 and see our own errors.

Some prominent leaders of Malankara Church ( here I mean from both groups)  looked at easy short cuts stating explicitly that Syrian Patriach is their head and they are under the Jacobite church in court battles against the Anglican /protestant supported  group.
If the Church has raised up to the situation asking in Prayer  help from above and some other solution, We would not had that split . 

It is so easy to split and allow shisms to grow when they shoud not.  We must step up to the plate and focus our energy in strengthening our faith and should aim for complete unity in India not a compromise saying the Syrian Patriach is the head of the Church .but that those whare Jacobites are our own brothers.
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 10:32:23 AM »

Sj
I think it is our ego and we have to go much beyond the 1958 and see our own errors.

Some prominent leaders of Malankara Church ( here I mean from both groups)  looked at easy short cuts stating explicitly that Syrian Patriach is their head and they are under the Jacobite church in court battles against the Anglican /protestant supported  group.
If the Church has raised up to the situation asking in Prayer  help from above and some other solution, We would not had that split . 

It is so easy to split and allow shisms to grow when they shoud not.  We must step up to the plate and focus our energy in strengthening our faith and should aim for complete unity in India not a compromise saying the Syrian Patriach is the head of the Church .but that those whare Jacobites are our own brothers.

Yeah, I don't think either side is totally innocent in all of this and I definitely don't hold it against our brothers in the faith. I'm more mad at the leadership since we had finally just healed the schism only to have it flare up worse than ever.
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 12:15:35 AM »

Sj
I too share the  furstartion that our leadership who has the most influnce should be  put more effort  to heal and not set flare to burn . The only thing is that as individuals we as individuals shouldn't be ones casting the stone and should pray for our leadersship such that God give wisdom
George
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